From the news tab, an anonymous tipster points us to a blog which took an amusing and slightly dil-warming look in to what tweens and teens in Hong Kong think of other Asian people:
When you think about Filipinos, what comes to your mind?
"Tak-shing Building!"
"They know how to sweep the floor!"
"I see them in Central all the time."
"Bun-bun. Filipina girls. But I have never met a Filipino guy yet."Do you feel that you disrespect them by calling them such names?
"Hey, they come here to work. We have more money than they have. They are getting paid, so wouldn’t you say that they can be ordered around?"Someday, you will be working and earning money too, and you will give spending money to your mother. Does that mean that you can order your mother around?
"But how can that be the same? My mother is not a Filipina."
Awesome. And now, on to the germane part (aside: does anyone know what “Ah Cha” means?):
When you think about Indians, what comes to your mind?
"They’re very ugly!"
"Some of them wrap their heads up. Some have a red dot in the forehead. They have big beards."
"They’re Ah Cha (阿差). Why do you have to ask?"
"Hey, how can you be like that? Do you know what they call us Hong Kong people?"
"I don’t know."
"They call us ‘friends’."
Finally … finally I heard something that passes as acceptable!!! I went from wanting to cry out of despair to wanting to cry out because I was touched! A three-hour class with twenty young Hong Kong students between the ages of 9 to 15. Sixteen of them said the above, three maintained their silence and a girl said that last thing … luckily, among the twenty, one of them was decent.
To the parents of the children — how are you teaching your children!!!!!
No worries, yaar. We’re teaching our children to be equally obnoxious. 😉
:+:
I just couldn’t resist that picture. Can you? Cute brown kids: my favorite way to start the day. 😀
aside: does anyone know what “Ah Cha” means?)
In Hong Kong, Indians are sometimes referred as “Ah Cha”, “Bambayya”, “Indus” etc.
I am surprised though, stereotype of Hong Kong desis is they are all tailors and make good suits. (tons of Sindhi bhais running suit shops)
Every other star hotel has 7 Ft Sikh bhais at the doors.
Many money exchangers are also desis (+Pakistanis)
On a negative note, Hong Kong is one of the few regions which does not require visa for Indians to enter – so you get lot of scums as well – illegal immigrant villagers type. Whose ultimate destination is Australia, Canada, US. These guys spend months at Hong Kong while working on fake documents, get drunk and create scenes.
I have had a little exposure to the Hong Kong people, thanks to frequent business trips lasting a decade, and I found them very similar to Indians in India. Political correctness is definitely not their strong suit. They believe in fate, destiny and the fact that society confers a status on you that you must quietly accept. Very eastern, though sad.
Ah-cha…could it be “accha”? That’s one Hindi word a lot of folks (esp in the Middle East) seem to know from their limited contact with desis.
Between this and discussion of South Asians and Arabs in the Gulf, I’m getting depressed…you’d think that all those nice ethnically and nationally diverse entrepots would produce tolerant cosmopolitanism, not this sort of nonsense.
Hey..nice picture.. and the story then is quite a contrast haan? Waise wouldnt it be cool to do a similar test with say primary school kids in India.. ? in some metropolis and then in some village !
nice photo..
you’d think that all those nice ethnically and nationally diverse entrepots would produce tolerant cosmopolitanism, not this sort of nonsense
This is one of the mistakes that well-intentioned people make – that an ethnically diverse society must automatically mean it is tolerant. In many cases, tolerance comes about not through genuinely believing that all groups should be treated equally, but through minimal contact. The example I like to use is Minnesota – a state that has a reputation for being liberal, progressive. So, when it came time to settle Hmong and Somali refugees – many were sent there, where they were welcomed with open arms by the locals. But recently, there has been a bit of refugee fatigue setting in, and Minnesotans are starting to voice opposition to accepting more such refugees.
The other example is views towards illegal immigrants. A suburban housewife may feel she is tolerant because she readily hires a Latino housekeeper or gardener, and treats them well. But how would she react if their children enrolled in her kids’ school, and due to their lower economic status, required more funding and programs that would divert from her own kids’ programs?
India’s diversity makes a great sales pitch, but it’s notion of tolerance is different from what we might consider tolerance in the West. There, tolerance is leaving other groups alone, but stereotyping them and not associating with others in social settings.
Japan is not diverse – but it is polite. Which means it will allow for some outsiders to partake in Japanese society, so long as you observe the rules. Russia is not diverse, and certainly not tolerant or polite.
A friend of mine who currently lives in Southern CA was considering moving to Houston – aside from the huge housing cost difference, he said he was impressed with the manners of the Houstonians he met, compared to that of the greater LA area. Both metro areas are diverse, but in his opinion, one had a better living environment and managed it’s ethnic makeup better than the other.
The point is – the degree of ethnic heterogenity is a poor indicator of how tolerant a country is.
Real nice.
There, tolerance is leaving other groups alone, but stereotyping them and not associating with others in social settings.
KXB,
Howsoever, chaotic, often deeply flawed and imperfect India is, I think in India different religions interact more. People go to houses of people from different religion, and are definitely more aware of their customs and sensitivities. More because, it is more diverse in terms of religion, and is much older country. USA is ethnically 10000X more diverse but not religion wise, or even socially. Diversity here means going to Indian and Japanese resturant, and talkning about naan and drinking saki. Here, it is more clinical.
Walk into any store in India, typically they will have different religious symbols. Just last month I started noticing in India, trucks have misxed religious symbols (as owner might one religion, driver another, typcial client another). I took some pictures documenting them.
Within United States, strange as it may sound, I think Texas and Louisiana has more real mixing with different groups, than mid-west and coastal areas. In mid-west and even coastal areas, the interaction is more polite but minimal on day to day basis (except teenagers or college kids but when they move subhurbia they become like their parents very soon). In Louisiana, Vietnamese refugees from 70s have done very well for themselves inspite initial hinderances.
There’s a sitcom from Singapore, that they broadcast on AZN called “Achar!” about a Desi guy (played by Jas Arora) who marries a Singapore girl, and the problems that they have with their in-laws.
Achar is the name of the character played by Jas Arora, but, could there be any connection?
I agree, ‘ah cha’ sounds like a phonetic transliteration of ‘accha’ which is a common feature across many north indian languages.
Negative Indian stereotypes aside, I must say that all the girls from HK that I’ve met in the US have been very very friendly to me 😉
the picture is superb… laughter, innocence… and makes you want to smile..
Children are beastly. Their prejudice is untempered by experience or sympathy.
From Quickseek
Kush,
I am not suggesting that India is a cauldron of ethnic discord – Indians’ familiarity and comfort with different religious practices is a good example of how India is more diverse than the predominately Judeo-Christian U.S. But this ethnic diversity can often hinder cooperation. Gurchuran Das, who is a big cheerleader of India’s economic reforms, still had to grudgingly admit that Indians need to become better team players. So many Indians are concerned with interacting with each other only on commonly accepted terms that it inhibits cooperation.
In NY – the Bengali Hindu community has distinguished itself from other South Asians in two distinct phases. In the 1980’s, the set up schools for teaching the Bengali language, and organizing Durga Puja and Saraswati Puja. That was when most Bengalis in NY were Indian and Hindu. But now, most Bengalis in NY are from Bangladesh. The most recent accomplishment of Bengali Hindus was to build a Kali Mandir on Long Island. They keep moving in a direction that will make them distinctive from the larger group, and possibly lessen the need to interact with those other groups.
In Chicago, Bengali Hindus are not as anxious to make themselves distinct, and most of their efforts at organizing schools or fundraising for a temple tend to fizzle out. OTOH, at weddings and parties, IÂ’ve seen more social mingling and genuine friendships develop between Bengali Hindus and Bengali Muslims than I did in NY. There seems to be less pressure to stand out since the overall numbers are fewer than in NY. It seem to me that a bit less diversity allowed for more tolerance and acceptance.
I have not traveled much in the South, but Henry Louis Gates of Harvard argued that race relations in the South tended to be more “intimate” (not a synonym for sexual) while such relations in the North tended to be more formal. One of my old professors at Chicago, Gerry Rosenberg, gathered data showing that post Brown v. Board of Ed – that the South has done a better job of integrating schools than the North.
On the coasts – money seems to dictate who your friends are. A white guy living in Malibu is unlikely to have much problems with a black or Indian guy moving in next door, since they are both wealthy enough to live in Malibu. Among the reasons I don’t like going back to NY as much as I used to, is that so much of the conversation seems to revolve around money – who moved to what neighborhood, whose house appreciated quickest, etc. And this is among the American-born group, now in our 30s.
KXB wrote:
I think Texas and Louisiana has more real mixing with different groups, than mid-west and coastal areas.
A friend of mine who currently lives in Southern CA was considering moving to Houston – aside from the huge housing cost difference, he said he was impressed with the manners of the Houstonians he met
I have not traveled much in the South, but Henry Louis Gates of Harvard argued that race relations in the South tended to be more “intimate” (not a synonym for sexual) while such relations in the North tended to be more formal.
Enough of this confederate-love, dixie-kissing attitude. As an ex-Houstonian, I’d say you are vastly overestimating racial harmony in the south. Black-white tensions are strong enough to cut with a knife. Social race-mixing is limited. Residential areas are also self-segregated — whiich is why Fort Bend county has so many Asians and Thw Woodlands has so few.
But that’s just me — I’ve lived there and didn’t like it. Are there other SMers who, unlike KXB, have actually lived in the South?
KXB, are you living in Chicago currently?
I’ve lived there and didn’t like it. Are there other SMers who, unlike KXB, have actually lived in the South?
10 years (7 in Louisiana, and 3 in Texas). At different places, Baton Rouge, Lafayette, Dallas, Houston, Austin, College Station.
And some comments from Bollywood’s finest
“At the event, well known actor Hrithik Roshan made a passing comment about how he knew it was time to leave Shanghai and Hong Kong after six weeks of stunt training and go home when his eyes started “turning into little slits like the Chinese”
“The actress, Rimi Sen, said in an interview last week: “I play a sweet and beautiful girl in the film. The best thing that I like about the film is that though it has four heroes, I am the only heroine. Rohit Shetty is amazing as a director. He can make even a black African look pretty.“
Enough of this confederate-love, dixie-kissing attitude. As an ex-Houstonian, I’d say you are vastly overestimating racial harmony in the south. Black-white tensions are strong enough to cut with a knife. Social race-mixing is limited. Residential areas are also self-segregated — whiich is why Fort Bend county has so many Asians and Thw Woodlands has so few.
Ikram,
Interaction and harmony are not the same thing. You can have lots of interaction, and still not like those you are interacting with. The old notion that familiarity breeds contempt. As for Gates, all he was arguing that whites and blacks have historically had closer interactions in the South than in the North, and the more interactions you have, the more you increase the chance of possible dislike. Folks in Vermont may treat black people just swell, but how many black people are there in Vermont to begin with?
I am not arguing that the South has come to terms with its past. But given that more black people are moving back to the South, I would say the picture is more complicated than simply dismissing it as “confederate love”
60 Minutes reported on this three years ago:
Going Home to the South
A few excerpts:
“But now, millions of their children are finding out that their best chance of living the American Dream is in the South, in places like the suburbs around Charlotte, North Carolina; Orlando, Florida; Houston, Texas; and especially Atlanta, Georgia.
And ironically, while their parents and grandparents may have fought for integration, many of them have chosen to live in all-black communities.”
“Their white-collar jobs include financial consultant, school principal, Xerox executive and computer programmer. Plus, high-tech jobs are attracting blacks and whites to the South. But for blacks, it’s coming back to their roots. Many who’ve moved South say they feel they’ve come home. And more than 3.5 million came home in the ’90s – twice as many as came in the ’80s. “
Indeed, interaction can often lead to friction between groups. For example, how are relations between Japanese and Swedes versus Japanese and Chinese? There has been little historical interaction between Sweden and Japan, but tremendous interaction between Japan and China. That interaction alone did not yield friendly relations.
Dasichist – yes
Russia is not diverse
it is. 10% of russian citizens are muslims. there is a lamaist temple in st. petersburg, thanks to the kalmyks, europe’s only indigenous buddhist people (they are refugees from western mongolia pushed out by manchu pogroms in the 18th century, they have their own republic on the lower volga). much of the boyer elite was traditional non-slav, whether it be german or converted tatars.
I think in India different religions interact more
kush, in the USA as many as 30% of americans convert from one religion (denomination) to another in their lives. a conservative estimate is that 40% of american jews outmarry.
living in one of america’s whitest states, i have visited the south many times. both kxb and ikram are right in their own way. easy to not be racist when there are no minorities (read: blacks) around, as is common here. there is more segregation and tension in the south, but the absolute number of interracial coupels in places like nashville is also striking (including for example white soldiers on leave with their black girlfriends).
And some comments from Bollywood’s finest
Wow! One thing India hasn’t developed is a sense of political correctness. People just mouth off what they will. There are so many jat jokes, sardar jokes, madrasi jokes and what have you.
Political Correctness is way overrated as a judge of character in today’s world.
Regards,
Yes. Kindness, however, is not.
the thing is, east asians saying brownz are ugly is karma. the main reason given is skin color, brownz be too kala….
Hey, I resemble that remark! Well, not the red dot, but …
I totally thought of you while I was blockquoting it, too. 😉
i grew up in hk… to be honest, yes some elements of the local population can be passively racist against indians… just as they are against anyone brown, black, white or even mainland chinese. in fact, i would say that almost every expat community in hong kong (indians especially) view the locals with disdain in return. to be absolutely clear, hong kong is a very tolerant and peaceful society, but its obsession with making money causes some some people to develop some really funny attitudes towards each other.
Political Correctness is way overrated as a judge of character in today’s world.
Its no judge of character, it constrains what can and can’t be said in public discourse.
the thing is, east asians saying brownz are ugly is karma. the main reason given is skin color, brownz be too kala….
Lee Kuan Yew – former Singapore leader- drained his swimming pool after an Indian diplomat took a dip in it.
How do Indians/Indian-Americans feel towards East Asians/East-Asian Americans?
We think they should TOP SOM BONG.
Im kidding of course, Im actually curious if any east asian stand up comedians have done jokes about south asians, maybe now all of them will.
How do Indians/Indian-Americans feel towards East Asians/East-Asian Americans?
depends on whether itz ladies or dudes 🙂
KXB, shoot me an email sometime, I’d be interested in talking with you.
i remember reading a story some years ago about a poor malaysian indian woman who married a Brit, moved to the UK and quickly became a lawyer with a prestigious firm. while on business/holiday in HK she became ill and was hospitalized. she later died in hospital. her husband, with help from hk rights groups sued and the court ruled she died as a result of being neglected by hospital staff due to racism, apathy and being seen as less worthy of attention than other patients. she was basically left in her corner to die. of course this sort of thing happens in many countries, either directly (racism) or indirectly (apathy and neglect), in india and even in the u.s. it just came to mind because it was such a sad story and a sad end to a very promising life.
Thanks for the quick replies. Woo!(not my last name)
But seriously there definitely is prejudice towards Indians in the East-Asian community as the blog pointed out. But there is, also, a sense of kinship that East Asian-Americans feel towards Indian-Americans. I’m going to generalize alot here, but both groups pretty much take the same classes in high school, go to the same decent universities, and then get work in pretty good places. Surprisingly, though, I haven’t noticed much interaction between Indians and East-Asians in the places I’ve lived (NYC, ne NJ, Boston).
ITA and it is quite a contrast to my experiences in the Bay Area or even at Davis, where all of my roommates my final year were Asian American (though no one else in the apartment was South Asian).
I’m going to generalize alot here, but both groups pretty much take the same classes in high school, go to the same decent universities, and then get work in pretty good places.
the association to some extent negative, that is, outside perception as “eastern” or “oriental.” the main exception is buddhism, but only a minority of american east asians are buddhist anyway (and obvious few brownz are buddhist, but it does have an affinity with hinduism because of its indian origins). i know brownz were a little bit of the outsiders at asian pacific student union meetings, and some of my east asian friendz said that as a brown dude i didn’t deal with the same sort of rejection based on race when it came to hittin’ the pale flesh 🙂
anyway, i think affinity is a direction function of americanization. my parents find whites less objectionable than east asians usually, despite shared “values.”
also, there are some cultural metrics where browns and east asians are civilizational antipodes. i am thinking in particular in regard to animals and how to treat them. east asians are liberal regarding consumption animal flesh, while brownz, even muslim ones in my experience, tend to be picky about what they eat (re: muslims, my exp. is that brown muslims interpret ‘halal’ more narrowly than arab or turkish muslims, i’ve seen this at mosque).
Dae… come out to Cali and we’ll kick it at the chaat house, soju bar, denny’s, or anywhere in between … it’s all love on the left side.
Meanwhile, my parents surprised me a few weeks ago by expressing how much they liked that my little sister’s bf was a Buddhist of Japanese descent. “He has more in common with us than a White boy would!” etc.
my parents find whites less objectionable than east asians usually, despite shared “values.”
Beacuse there is a racial pecking order in Amreeka. The list might differs a little bit from person to person.
Regarding Buddhism and Confucianism, it deeply ingrained in East Asian society even if someone is Agnostic, Christian, etc. Same for Asian Americans. There is a saying in Japan (I am paraphrasing, orginal words might be different): You are born as a Shinto, you marry as a Christian, and you die as a Buddhist
Meanwhile, my parents surprised me a few weeks ago by expressing how much they liked that my little sister’s bf was a Buddhist of Japanese descent. “He has more in common with us than a White boy would!” etc.
My parents the same. They seemed to “trust” Asian kids more when considered as playmates too.
with my parents it might be a racial thing. christians are “cleaner” than non-christians (even though a majority of asian americans are christian).
Regarding Buddhism and Confucianism, it deeply ingrained in East Asian society
yes. east asian society. not necessarily true with americans (asian americans born & raised fit american psychological profiles re: individualism, etc.).
p.s. i brought up buddhism btw because that is a link that asian american scholars explicitly point to to rebutt the charge that “asian american” identity that includes south asians is artificially constructed.
This is generally okay as a description, but I think it might be a little off. Bangali Hindus started coming to New York in the 1960s and 1970s and were organizing pujas and cultural associations as early as the early 1970s and began dividing among themselves fairly early (there have been separate pujas in new jersey, queens, and nassau county, with corresponding associations for as long as i can remmeber and i’m 28); they also started infighting so from the original queens puja committee (east coast durga puja) there are a few separate ones now. This is probably among the reasons why it took them 30 years to build a kali mandir 🙂
I don’t, however, see in what ways we make ourselves more or less distinct than any other groups do–though that may be the case–I don’t know. I do know among the 1st gen, there are sindhi associations, tamil associations, Indian associations, etc.–the puja i go to is in a building called “gujarati samaj” 🙂
also, a pedantic note, the extent of buddhism’s impact on society varies from culture to culture in east asia. the tokugawa stipulated japanese had to register with a buddhist temple. the choson dynasty in korea banished buddhist temples to the hills.
p.s. i brought up buddhism btw because that is a link that asian american scholars explicitly point to to rebutt the charge that “asian american” identity that includes south asians is artificially constructed.
It would help if some Asian Americans were actually Buddhist (yes there are a few Thais and others). BTW I think there are large numbers of Evangelical Christians among Asian-Americans. Do you know if this is true? There was a story a few years ago about a Christian revival among Harvard students, but as far as I could tell, the churches pictured in the story were filled with mostly Asians.