Harriet Miers, 
the latest SCOTUS nominee, is involved with a Texas-based missionary church which trolls for souls in Madhya Pradesh (via SAJA):
… [Harriet Miers’] longtime congregation [is] Valley View Christian Church in Dallas… She also served on the missions committee and took a deep interest in its programs in central India, according to minister Barry McCarty, inviting him and an Indian mission director to lunch at the White House last March. Miers also served on the board of Pioneer Bible Translators, which has missions worldwide… [Link]McCarty serves on the board of Central India Christian Mission, which was meeting in Washington, D.C., in March. Miers knew of the meeting, and hosted McCarty and missionary Ajai Lall for lunch at the White House. [Link]
The Central India Christian Mission is part of the Texan-xtian nexus:
The primary task of the mission is evangelism and church planting… It is the need of the hour to train the native leaders in India as much as possible. The Mission Center… is located on about 15 acres of land in Damoh District of Central Province [Madhya Pradesh], India. [Link]
The missionaries, Indu and Ajai Lall and their Bible college-trained brood, are apparently the Johnny Appleseeds of Indian churches 
Over 400 churches have been planted in central and northern India, in the country of Nepal and along the northeast India/Bhutan border. [Link – PDF]
They use the buzzy language of military marcom:
The capital city New Delhi has been targeted since 1997 with several churches being established in this strategic location. [Link]
<
p>I can’t help but notice that the U.S.-facing marketing site omits the foreign-sounding name of the state. But I can’t hate on anyone who repairs cleft palates in dalit neighborhoods:
Dr. Lall had been trying to get a plastic surgery group into this area for many years. There are approximately 350 children and young adults needing cleft lip/palate surgery in the district of Damoh alone. [Link]
<
p>Yet even that site tugs at the heartstrings in the usual way:
Central India Christian Mission, CICM, is an oasis for the “untouchables”, the lowest cast members in one of the poorest countries on earth. [Link]
<
p>India is hardly one of the world’s poorest countries. It’s fourth in the world in GDP, after the U.S., China and Japan and ahead of Germany, the UK, France, Italy, Russia, Canada, South Korea, Taiwan, Saudi Arabia, Israel and Singapore. In GDP per capita, it’s in the third quartile and not in the 50 poorest. It is, however, one of the countries with the highest number of poor.
Missionaries are great people. They are doing God’s work. More power to them. If India had been ruled by spain or portugal instead of british, it would be a developed christian country like mexico (mexico and other latin american countries’ per capita income is much higher than that of india). The caste problem, religious riots etc would be nonexistent.
Why stop at Mexico? The third-highest GDP per capita in the world is earned by the world’s least religious country. By your ‘logic,’ Christian = poor.
The Catholic Church’s anti-birth control doctrine increases the population and weakens Mexico’s economy. Just what India needs.
If India had not been ruled, it would be a developed, secular country like the U.S. of A.
Recovering liberal, Yea, what colonialists should’ve done was strip India of its religion, culture, and language. Why stop there, why not go to the logical extreme of what’s implied in your comment and get rid of the Indians in India, too. I’ll admit the Brits brought railroads and and certain western advantages to a handful of Indian upper crust, but the idea that more colonialism was what was needed is absolutely ridiculous. Plundering a peoples is not the way to enhance their economy.
“doing God’s work,” right. So the mass killings of native Americans by the conquistadors was “God’s work.” I’m thoroughly convinced. The British were truly horrible for not going far enough in their exploitation.
“Missionaries are great people They are doing God’s work. More power to them”
That is a blanket statement; I doubt all missionaries are good. The whole concept of having someone converts his or her beliefs never settled well with me. Every now and again, I read stories about these “missionaries” forcing people to convert. I did a quick google search and found this:
Parents of nine Dalit and OBC school-going children aged between seven and 10 have registered a case with the police in Rajgarh against a priest, Father Abraham, on the charge of repeatedly assaulting their wards and denying them meals following their refusal to convert to the Christian faith.
One of the children, nine-year-old Banne Singh told The Times of India News Service that he and his friends lived in a convent run by a local church at Rajgarh but studied in a neighbouring government school. Displaying mostly dry wounds around his knuckles and waist, he alleged,
Father ne humko ravivar ko bet ki chadi se maara (Father beat us with a cane on Sunday)'' upon which he complained toPapa and Mummy”.While I can never be certain if this was a true story or not, I am sure it has happen somewhere at least once. Really, what kind of missionaries are these!!? They are beating children! I mean if you have to force people to convert to your religion, what kind of religion is it? Sounds more like a pyramid scheme to me. If Christianity were really the best religion then logic would dictate that everyone would convert on their own accord.
“If India had been ruled by spain or portugal instead of british, it would be a developed christian country like mexico (mexico and other latin american countries’ per capita income is much higher than that of india)”
Are you saying the reason IndiaÂ’s per capita income is lower than mexico and latin america is because the country has a large Hindu population? That doesnÂ’t even make sense. How do you even logically link the two?! Per capita income = income / population. I am no math or census expert but doesnÂ’t india have a lot of people? WouldnÂ’t that drive the ratio down?
“The caste problem, religious riots etc would be nonexistent.”
I donÂ’t know to much about the caste problem, but I doubt 1000Â’s of years of history can be replaced/ solved by people converting to Christianity. But then again any problem would be solved if everyone believed in the same thing.
Religious riots? Doubt that as well. What about this religious riot that involved Christians: http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2001/140/23.0.html
Manish, trust you and SM to come up with another hard hitting story.
Missionaries trying to convert people is in itself a wrong thing according to me. What is their point in conversion ?
The people who they are trying to convert are not religiously oppressed. They might be economically worse off than should be. But then if the missionaries are truly doing their bidding to God, then why not just give these hapless people the means and source to food, clothing and shelter et al, and not ask for anything in return.
The reason is multi-fold and I would put a large part of the blame on the rich donors who donate money so that the message of “their” god can be imposed on the masses and they find a way to heaven.
Fuckin hogwash all this is.
I find the whole idea of embracing of God and Christianity in US politics stifling.
One day, I was talking to a Brit friend of mine, Dave. We talked about Bristish bringing railways, western thought, education, etc to India.
You know what he said, “It was not out of altruism, it was for more effective exploitation – railways for raw materials to be shipped to UK, education to help colonize India and other parts of the world through cheaper Indian personnel. “
Any person with a sense of history will tell you. Exploiting economic disadvantege for religuous conversion is a sin in itself.
I agree with arzan. The whole concept of having people convert seems unsettling. I kind of thinking about it like food. If your full, then you don’t want people shoving food down your throat. If your hungry, then you will actively try to find it. From what I have read, missionaries have ALOT of blood on thier hands.
It is a wonder that Pagan India has survived at all with American- and European-funded missionaries roaming the countryside.
If one objects to these practices, which aim at the deracination of India, one is labelled a fascist nationalist by the (overwhelmingly Hindu-Indian) South Asianist crowd.
“Look how much ‘good work’ the missionaries are doing,” they say, “will Hindus do the same?” (Read: Hindus are indifferent casteists.) They ignore the fact that there are over 100,000 indigenous NGOS in India, overwhelmingly run by Hindus.
When the VHP “reconverts” Christians, the mission organizations call it “calculated” and “unfair”.
Double standards!
Damn, only if we could have been a Christian country all of our problems would be solved, thats so brilliant why didn’t anyone think of that before? If we could get a great leader, someone like Pat Robertson, that would be even better. And everyone would like us too!
i’m not a fan of christian missionaries, but think of it from their perspective: people who don’t believe in jesus christ are going to hell. if you presuppose that premise, what they are doing isn’t that exploitative at all. i don’t agree with their premise, but, since that’s what they believe, i think one should be cautious in accusing them of preying on people, since what they are concerned about (as much or more) is the everlasting life.
we really wouldn’t be having this discussion of course if inequality, gross injustice and poverty were not present. i do think it is valid to point out the shysterish shenanigans that some missionaries are up to (telling peasants in nepal that the government is christian and that they will be in the gov. good graces if they convert is a common type of tactic). that being said, a certain segment who criticize missionaries seem to be the sort who do little to ameliorate the injustice that missionaries are leveraging to win souls.
I agree with arzan. The whole concept of having people convert seems unsettling.
well, it is fundamental to the faith of 1/2 of the world’s population, so let’s not pretend like this is an exotic idea.
When the VHP “reconverts” Christians, the mission organizations call it “calculated” and “unfair”.
Double standards!
sure, agreed. but two wrongs don’t make a right, and all that.
Don’t you think if they were only out to salvage soouls from hell, they wouldn’t resort to promising food/benefits only on conversion? Just being a Christian in name alone will not save your soul anyway-from the Christian point of view as I understand it.
“well, it is fundamental to the faith of 1/2 of the world’s population, so let’s not pretend like this is an exotic idea.”
Half the world’s population is female…. get the idea?
India is hardly one of the worldÂ’s poorest countries. ItÂ’s fourth in the world in GDP, after the U.S., China and Japan and ahead of Germany, the UK, France, Italy, Russia, Canada, South Korea, Taiwan, Saudi Arabia, Israel and Singapore.
Yeah, and Iceland ranks 137th in the world in GDP. Surely it must be one of the world’s poorest countries.
(Oddly enough, your concession of “It is, however, one of the countries with the highest number of poor.” is similarly irrelevant.)
Don’t you think if they were only out to salvage soouls from hell, they wouldn’t resort to promising food/benefits only on conversion? Just being a Christian in name alone will not save your soul anyway-from the Christian point of view as I understand it.
there is a whole field of missiology devoted to this, but suffice it to say that profession of belief is the first step to genuine internalization. blaise pascal’s “wager” was in large part designed to allow the rational skeptic to take a step in that direction (pascal never meant his wager to really convince anyone, there are obvious logical fallacies). to give a specific example, i know a man who converted to islam to marry a muslim woman. for the first 15 years he was obviously muslim in name only, he wouldn’t even say “salaam” in response to people and never went to mosque on eid. but, i hear a few years ago he had a “true conversion” and now he dresses like a mullah. the point is that this is the sort of thing that missionaries also look at insofar as they “seed” for the future. if the man had remained a hindu he might now be deeply pious, as a hindu, but that wasn’t a viable option for his ‘religious awkening’ because he was a nominal muslim during that stage in his life.
also, i’m not being very clear here when i used the “two wrongs” phrase, i just meant that all the concern about conversions on the part of christians, hindus and muslims might better be devoted to ameliorating the condition of dalits. sincere and fervent hindus, christians and muslims of course will still focus on souls or whatever, but, i often get the impression that many hindus who are concerned about conversions are pretty secular, so it seems material foci should be paramount.
Hasn’t the Vatican accepted that there are other religions??? Plus this 1/2 of the worlds population that you have quoted has come to better grips (overall) with mordern realities, especially when it comes to co-existence.
also, let me add that focusing on the structural factors is important. japan has been open to missionaries for 150 years, and is only 1% christian. in south korea the population is 25% christian because christian koreans were identified with korean nationalism, and the united states (a christian nation) was viewed as a protector against the north. it isn’t as if the missionaries who went to south korea were better, or their message better, or south koreans are naturally more religious than the japanese.
passing laws is a short term solution. you can’t dictate someone’s heart, even if they got their via the stomach or wallet. one problem i see is that hindus always aim for the draw (keep hindus in the flock), muslims and christians aim for a victory (expand the flock). in an iterated game over time the former strategy is obviously going to be a loser if victories and draws are randomly alloted to each side.
Unless I’m mistaken, Razib is also referring to Islam when referring to “1/2 the world’s population”, so he’s talking about Christianity + Islam combined. Please correct me if I’m wrong, Razib.
Warning: This maybe an irrelevant point.
Just wondering why the missionaries have such Hindu names. Even their kids have the same. I know a few Keralites who have Hindu first names but they are followed by John, David, Joseph etc. Maybe I am mistaken, but I thought faithful Christians, like Muslims, are supposed to be named with their religion in mind.
Hasn’t the Vatican accepted that there are other religions??? Plus this 1/2 of the worlds population that you have quoted has come to better grips (overall) with mordern realities, especially when it comes to co-existence.
the catholic position is nuanced. but being within the church is a definite +, though i think they don’t presume to say who outside the church has found the path to salvation or not after vatican ii (ie; people can be catholics without knowing it, even if they believe themselves to be of other religions). as for the quote about modernity, that’s a joke, get serious. until the past century even in the christian world conversion was a no-no. muslims still have a messed up attitude toward it (they convert, but don’t allow others leave). modernity is generally correlated with the idea that people are who they choose to be, not who they are born. that’s the big picture i’m trying to get at. of course indian can ban conversions by fiat, but again, i think that’s a long term losing proposition.
Please correct me if I’m wrong, Razib.
right.
Maybe I am mistaken, but I thought faithful Christians, like Muslims, are supposed to be named with their religion in mind.
it is a custom, but not necessary, and many christians understand that it is counterproductive. many “christian” names are not hebrew, they are latinate or northern european.
Most missionaries SUCK! If they were truely good people, they would just give rice to the poor. They are all about quid pro quo. They are so self-righteous that they think their way is the only way and everyone should believe in Christ. (And they depict Christ as this white guy with blonde hair and blue eyes and Nordic feautures.) And so these self-righteous missionaries run around India and breed “Rice Christians.” So ridiculous.
On another note, although I was born into a Syrian Catholic family, I believe that many Indian Christians confuse Christianity and Western culture resulting in the disintegration of their desi culture to varying degrees. Many Malayalee Christians name their kids Western names now that are not even Christian names, which are names that come from the Bible. Why? There are so many desi names that are so beautiful..
Daksha, there are two aspects to this – when you see theses overzealous missionaries with very Hindu-sounding names, you can be sure that they were recent converts (1st/2nd gen) from Hinduism. They are overwhlmingly Dalit – just the group the “missionaries” are targetting. Most of these missionaries seem to be in it for the money (also.)They tend to be more-patriotic-than-the king house-Ns.
The Keralite names that you mention tend to belong to people from traditionally Christian families. They freely adopt Indian (which does not mean Hindu – it’s just Sanskrit.)names . This trend started in the recent generations. And since Mallus dont generally follow the surname system, (we usually append the father’s first name with the child’s – eg: Anna John.), a lot of young people have such names – for eg: Arun George). I know, coz I have one like that.
And since we are discussing this, let me say that traditional Christians (or rather Catholics) tend to oppose these aggressive evangelism. There’s always this “we’ve been here for 2000 years, so we’re better than you johnny-come-latelys” kind of thing. Also, there is the fact that most of these “new” Xtians tend to be Dalits/fishermen etc, while traditional Kerala Catholics are more prosperous, and claim to have descended from Namboodiris (Keral Brahmins) converted in the 1st and 2nd centuries. Hell, we even tend to look more fair, which counts for a lot in India. If anybody tells you there isnt an amount of subtle casteism in traditonal Indian churches, theyre lying.
I thought the lowest cast members were called extras in Bollywood films.
These are the people spreading education in India. Forsooth.
While I don’t fully agree that net GDP of a country is a good way to determine the welfare of its citizens, and I do believe that India can use developmental aid, I have trouble with the notion of evangelical proselytization. I mean, let’s not forget that these are the same people that want to teach Intelligent Design in school. Do we want more kids reading such blather?
not ask for anything in return.
That’s really the root of the matter. I have many perspectives on this. For one thing I am not blanket against conversion–I think that’s racist. There’s no reason you should be forced to stick to a religion because you were born in it; that seems to violate the theological principles of free will and freely relating to divinity. As I am fond of pointing out, Hinduism does historically take in converts–see Heliodorus.. Even Jews have a mechanism for conversion. But in both these cases it’s difficult–the convert has to do a lot of work. As long as this work doesn’t turn into a burden, it seems like a good mechanism to make sure no one is being forced or bought.
My other perspective is from having a friend who is, in fact, a parttime missionary, sometime in India; though we haven’t talked much about his missionary work, we have talked about religion a bit. So I feel that some, perhaps many of these missionaries are sincere, as Razib points out, just trying to right by their fellow human being in the world as they see it. So we have to divide our analysis into two groups. The sincere, and the insincere.
Because there are plenty of insincere. They even exist here. We see them all the time. This is a big money operation. Pat Robertson makes money off of diamonds in Zimbabwe. Not all of these missionaries live broke and teach orphans, like my friend. Plenty of them fly home first class to McMansions and SUVs. This is a problem in this country, this is a problem abroad. See a great New Yorker article on Christian groups fighting money-crazed evangelicals. A couple good Christian blogs to counterbalance the Pat Robertson style: jesuspolitics.typepad.com and kevingpowell.blogspot.com.
But even if people are sincere, are there no issues to discuss? I think there are. I think couching your conversion speeches in terms of condemnation of the native culture and religions is offensive and harmful, and too often converters resort to that, everywhere. Someone tried to convert my mother when she was waiting for me on a park bench in Seattle; they probably didn’t realize what they had gotten themselves into but they were amazingly offensive in their ease at dissing Hinduism. That kind of fundamental disrespect is unhealthy in a society as diverse as India–and I will note that old-school, non-VHP Hinduism is deeply respectful of Christianity. Recently I think the actively propagated perception that it’s the missionaries who do all the development work, and none of the Hindus/Jains/Sikhs who do it is deceptive and damaging. I think tying development work to missionary work with anything more than the pressure of one’s good example and kindness and caring is simply unadmirable. And there should be no question of forcing people whatsoever. Give people help and aid, and show them by your example that your faith is strong; if they are thus provoked to find out more by it, good on you. Some people follow this model; unsurprisingly it’s pretty successful if you’re going for quality and not quantity.
All these phenomena are multimodal; let us not conflate issues too deeply.
Dana Carvey, wow. What a guy.
Franklin, you seem to have missed the bit that Manish put in about per capita, 3rd quartile. By your Icelandic logic, the fact that there are more poor people in India than anywhere else is similarl irrelevant–there are more middle class people too.
C’mon people there are only 7 years left for the “Rapture”. Do you want to get “Left behind” ?? Thank the people who are making sure that people dont get left behind. (Including some Jews, who were converted after digging them from their graves .. I am not kidding)
Here’s my view, we need to make a clear distinction beteween missionaries and christian charities. We must admit some Christian Charities are going some good work in India. What I’m against is this is the TV evangalist breed of fellows who’s only aim is filled with regional and racial prejudices all disguised under the name of god.
Ok, it has come for me to voice my opinion on this. As a Pentecostal Christian Keralite out of India now currently residing in the United States. Those of you on this blog have made some serious unfair statements about Christians and Christian missionaries. As I am related to several missionaries. (Two uncles are pastors, another one goes on missions to Africa) It certainly hurts when I hear people making suggestions that they could be exploiting people. I know, that in the same sense that I couldn’t make a blanket statement about all missionaries that they are all bad. I couldn’t do the same that they are all good. But I have met several missionaries who sincerely care about these people. They care about the poor people in India, and those that suffer. And as Razib said, as Christians we believe the only way to heaven is through Jesus Christ. Thus, there are missionaries working among the rich and poor of India spreading the gospel, because we have a burden for the lost. I understand that sounds demeaning to a lot of people. But I am sincere when I say that it is not meant to be. I can not speak for all Christians, I can speak for the ones I’ve met and talked to. We care deeply about our Indian brothers and sisters. I hope to see all of them in Heaven once I die. Thus I tell them about the love of Jesus Christ. I don’t want their money or anything else. I don’t know what else to say, I’m just trying to defend the missionaries, I guess. Please, take a look at the other side before attacking Christians in India and other countries around the globe.
Oh and to the first commenter. What the Spanish did was not at all the right way. If you spread the gospel according to the Bible, you will not be exploiting people or enslaving them. Have a good day folks, and may God richly bless you.
To create a new class of “Dalit Christians” (Look it up. Its real) ..who’s social status doesnt change an iota with the conversion
Daycruz, Would you plz keep your Love of God in your Christian Blog. I believe you misunderstood this blog as a place to preach.
I have a small advice for you. Before you take others burden on yourself, just worry about your burden. That may lead you to hell or heaven or whatever you believe in. Dont forget that you live in a capitalistic society. First worry about your ass, then you can worry about other’s ass.
I will never ever believe someone who says he is carrying someone else burden on himself for the sake of going to heaven. Its Just plain bullshit.
By the way, is hell really that bad? …not my HFO
Saheli,
I agree with you 100% regarding everything, including free will. I got educated in a Catholic school in India – most of the middle/ upper class Hindus/ Muslims are. Some of these schools are secular and comparable to the best in the world anywhere. I have met very honest, sincere missionaries in India and US.
However, I will paraphrase Jumo Kenyatta saying:
“When they came we had the land, and they the bible. When we opened our eyes, we had the bible and they had the land.”
I am very against Pat Robertson style modus operandi.
daycruz i think most of us are just concerned about the bad ones in the lot, riding on the good faith gathered by the good people you mentioned. Like Saheli mentioned above, if honest noble intentions win through, then good for them. At the same time, it isn’t healthy imo, to preach by putting down the native culture.That doesn’t help to eradicate the problem at all.
The Dalit Christian class is definitely true as the quotas in India will tell you. I think some missionaries miss the point- conversion alone doesn’t ‘solve’ the problem. You need to be able to affect the mentality that allows the hierarchal system and persists after conversion as well. Or maybe there is no solution to it, for humans like to feel they are superior don’t they?
The Syrian Christians, as far as I know, did not advocate conversion until recently. They were thoroughly integrated into the Malabar caste system: the oil obtained from the Nair shop had to be “purified” by the Nusrani (Christian) before being handed off to the Namboodiri Brahmana. (He would dip is pinky or something into the little container.) Very many I’ve met respect Hindu philosophy, particluarly advaita, though they seem to decry animistic practices.
Hi yeah, I think daycruz was perfectly within propriety with his comment, and was very informative and respectful. There’s no reason to ask him to take it somewhere else. Please be civil!!!
Yeah, must be terrible having to listen to another opinion. Anyways, about your question of carrying burdens, I’ll use an analogy that I’m sure you have heard before. If you saw someone drowning in a pool, you would do anything in your power to save that individual. That’s exactly how Christians see it. What does my living in a capitalistic society have to do with anything? And Kush, I agree, my Christian friends and I were just discussing the terrible consequences of those so called Christians who do some terrible things in the name of God. (Every religion has their idiots) But once again, you can’t make that blanket statement. And while Pat Robertson may be an idiot, there are many low lying people in his organization who do good things around the world. I wish they would find a way to get rid of him though.
Hmmmm missionaries. Where do I begin? (Disclaimer: this is based on MY own personal experiences with American (mostly Bible belt–Southern Baptists, AGs, Mennonites etc)missionaries in Nairobi)
So between 10-12 grade I went to a school in Nairobi that had been set up for the children of American missionaries who didn’t want their kids to have to move from one school system to another while the family travelled around.
When I first got to the school I was one of maybe 3 non-christians (the others being a Catholic (yes, apparently Catholics are not Cristian. Could have fooled me, but then again, what do I know) and a very passive Muslim boy.
For a while everyone at the school made a concerted effort to make sure I got to know the Lord, and accept him into my heart. They were all very shocked when I could quote the bible (I went to an amazingly wonderful Catholic school, and LOVED it).
Every day during the mandatory devotions period, I was prayed for (Dear Lord let today be the day that XXX sees the light and accepts you in her heart). When they realized I was not really going to convert they called me things like devil’s spawn and cow worshipper, and the usual gambit of names…
Parent’s would sometimes use the track in the morning when dropping their kids off, and my mom would too, until one day two of the moms came up to her and told her that the only reason that her heathen children were allowed into the school was because the school needed the money (non-missionaries paid 3X the fees). And that she should really make sure that their bad influences would not be brought to their school because they were watching us and we would not get a second chance if we were ever caught doing anything wrong.
These people harrassed me, discriminated against me, called me names (and I’m not just talking about the kids, I’m talking the kids parents, the school authorities, the pastor). I didn’t much care because I didn’t really think too highly of them as people anyway. But then it affected my grades too. I got points taken off for not including “God would not want you to smoke” as part of my (health class) answer to a question about what you’d tell a friend if you wanted them to stop smoking. In AP biology the teacher didn’t finish the syllabus because he spent 2.5 months “disproving” evolution for my benefit. They weren’t going to let me join the National Honour Society until I threatened to report their favoritism.
A lot of the families were living in huge houses, in compounds with pools (paid for by the mission), had fancy cars (SUVs), had clothes (and other ammenities including things like American food that the families might miss) sent to them by their sponsoring churches, maids, drivers, gardeners etc etc. Most families had 3-4 kids, it was not uncommon for families to have 7-8, since they didn’t believe in birth control. This is not the kind of lifesyle they enjoyed at “home” and I often heard kids complain when they “had to” take sabbaticals and go “home.” Despite this, at the weekly chapel I heard things like, “thank you lord for bringing us to this dark continent so that we may bring these natives to you, so that you may save them from their sins,” and “thank you Jesus for giving us the choice…to be saved or to be stupid,” (this one was aimed at me after a particularly bad week of failed evangelism)
I don’t agree with conversion in general, but conversion for food, or under any other type of pressure is abhorrent.
My argument to these people was simple. You believe in an omniscient God who knows the begining and end to everything from before time existed. Therefore when he created me he knew that I was never going to convert. Why would he create a soul for the specific purpose of populating hell? Doesn’t that go against the whole ‘God as a kind, caring, benevolent being’ thing?
And my all time favorite Matthew 7:3, because it was their kids/peers/fellow Christians who were caught smoking weed, having sex, flunking school and generally going against the will of the Lord the most.
What a load of crock.
sorry, clarification. i’m not against people converting, just against people forcing their view of things on others and discrimination based on religious beliefs (or lack thereof)
Saheli,
I apologize, If my Comments were not civil.
To be honest…I hate everything when it comes to conversion. These missionaries are forcing the helpless people to convert to christianity. I hate when people, use someone’s situation (poor, hunger) to their benefit and expolit them accordingly.
All these phenomena are multimodal; let us not conflate issues too deeply.
hallelujah? 🙂
Guys,
Do you have any thoughts on the IIPM vs bloggers issue?
http://indiauncut.blogspot.com/2005/10/question-of-principles.html
As a long time reader, I guess you should blog about this & fight for the freedom of speech
These missionaries are forcing the helpless people to convert to christianity.
the problem is that they are helpless. note,
but conversion for food, or under any other type of pressure is abhorrent.
yes, it is abhorrent, i find it unseemly. that being said, i’ve never really been hungry, but there are plenty of people out there who are. so when you balance the abhorrency i don’t see it as that bad. not being a believer in any religion or god, i’m cool with people mumbling any particular profession if that will get them through the day.
so granted, i can understand why people object to christian missionaries focusing the down-trodden, but from the perspective of the down-trodden the key, in a materialist sense, is there well being before and after. if it is marginally improved, i don’t think (as a unbeliever) it matters that much which god they bow to.
now, if you are a sincere hindu, muslim, christian, etc., then the situation is different, you do think it matters which power you bow to, what tradition you follow, etc. i won’t get into the utility calculation because i’m not you, but i think it is there as well, but we have a situation where people believe in alternative supernatural agents, and by the nature of those agents we can’t falsify one agent vs. another.
I didnt think it was this open. BTW, how come you call it
I would have hated such a school. (which came out as a threatening place from your description)
hi yeah Don’t apologize to me, it was day cruz you were talking to. You might want to apologize to him. you’ve got strong feelings, and that’s the fire of good discussion. But hate’s not going to help anyone, “everything” is a powerful word that quickly becomes meaningless, and generalizations are useless. Everyone involved is a human being, fallible and hurtable.
The most trenchant commentary on missionaries that I’ve ever come across is the South Park episode where the boys had to help their Ethiopian friend Starvin’ Marvin and his people escape from earth because they were constantly being harassed by missionaries. Like many here, I don’t care for evangelical Christians, but I think some of the handwringing over ‘helpless’ Dalits is a bit condescending. Sure Dalits are poor, but that doesn’t mean that they’re dumb or that they lack any agency whatsoever. I’ve come across some rather amusing stories of Dalits grabbing whatever goodies they can from their benefactors, while still practising their ancestral traditions in private. If you read missionary tracts, they often express frustration at how little conversions seem to stick in the subcontinent.
One reason the Hindu nationalists oppose conversion is becuase they don’t want an East Timor-like situation in South India or the separitist difficulties of the Northeast. The subcontinent was split apart based upon religion, so their fears are not altogether unfounded.
I hope that a liberal Hinduism eventually supplants old-school orthodoxy in the hinterland (as it has with certain groups in urban India).
I am against an outright ban on conversions for all the reasons given by Saheli and others.
The best counter to missionaries have been charismatic Hindu leaders like Ma Amritayamayi (from a ‘lower’ fisherman caste), Bangaru Adigal and other (largely non-Brahmin) swamis who are devoted both to spiritual regeneration and to social service. They are the best counter to Christianity (besides a good, Enlightenment-style education).
Sorry that was meant to be Catholic primary (1-8th grade)school where even though they taught Christian Religious Education (all public-system schools had to teach a religious education course, Christian, Islamic or Hindu), when Catholics had mass, they would have assembly for the rest of the students and they would read from the bhagvat gita, the Koran, any other religious texts the teachers thought relevant as well as various philosophers etc. Amazingly tolerant school 🙂
And since we are discussing this, let me say that traditional Christians (or rather Catholics) tend to oppose these aggressive evangelism. There’s always this “we’ve been here for 2000 years, so we’re better than you johnny-come-latelys” kind of thing.
can you get real?
“The peoples of Asia need Jesus Christ and his gospel. Asia is thirsting for the living water that Jesus alone can give,” the pope declared in a Vatican document released during a ceremony in New Delhi on November 6. The document, “Ecclesia in Asia” (The Church in Asia), is the fruit of the Synod for Asia held at the Vatican in April and May last year. The pope has made it a custom to visit the regions covered by special synods to release the “apostolic exhortations” that summarize and conclude the work of the synods. In recent years the synods of Africa and of America were followed by papal visits to the regions concerned. cite
syrian catholics might not be at the forefront of missionary activities, but roman catholic ecumenicalism with non-christian religions aside from judaism goes only to a certain point. let’s keep our feet on the ground here.
Also, there is the fact that most of these “new” Xtians tend to be Dalits/fishermen etc, while traditional Kerala Catholics are more prosperous, and claim to have descended from Namboodiris (Keral Brahmins) converted in the 1st and 2nd centuries.
this implies that most of the namboothiri brahmins converted to christianity (last i checked, only 1% of kerala’s population is namboothiri brahmin, 20% christian, even if many of these are new converts, we are talking at least an order of magnitude more christians than brahmins).
I didnt think it was this open. BTW, how come you call it
RC,
It’s very Open. Why they should be embarassed, after all they are spreading the ‘Love of God’:) BTW, Can I get some Love?
On the other day in a high school in College park. There was some desi cultural thing. These so called missionaries, they were giving away pamphlets, that relates Jesus Christ, Virgin Marry to Hindu Gods, with vedic slokas written in Sanskrit, where Jesus Christ is mentioned, even before he is born.
This was funny to read at first. They would go to any extent to spread the ‘Love of God’.
I should get that pamphlet from my friend, so that I could post it on this blog.
I’ve come across some rather amusing stories of Dalits grabbing whatever goodies they can from their benefactors, while still practising their ancestral traditions in private.
the nordic peoples were bireligious for a few generations too, when crops failed they always had a little idol of thor that they could bring out as a “back up.” the key though is that these tendencies tend to dissipate in subsequent generations until the “alternative tradition” becomes a meaningless hodge-podge of folk beliefs.