Harriet Miers, 
the latest SCOTUS nominee, is involved with a Texas-based missionary church which trolls for souls in Madhya Pradesh (via SAJA):
… [Harriet Miers’] longtime congregation [is] Valley View Christian Church in Dallas… She also served on the missions committee and took a deep interest in its programs in central India, according to minister Barry McCarty, inviting him and an Indian mission director to lunch at the White House last March. Miers also served on the board of Pioneer Bible Translators, which has missions worldwide… [Link]McCarty serves on the board of Central India Christian Mission, which was meeting in Washington, D.C., in March. Miers knew of the meeting, and hosted McCarty and missionary Ajai Lall for lunch at the White House. [Link]
The Central India Christian Mission is part of the Texan-xtian nexus:
The primary task of the mission is evangelism and church planting… It is the need of the hour to train the native leaders in India as much as possible. The Mission Center… is located on about 15 acres of land in Damoh District of Central Province [Madhya Pradesh], India. [Link]
The missionaries, Indu and Ajai Lall and their Bible college-trained brood, are apparently the Johnny Appleseeds of Indian churches 
Over 400 churches have been planted in central and northern India, in the country of Nepal and along the northeast India/Bhutan border. [Link – PDF]
They use the buzzy language of military marcom:
The capital city New Delhi has been targeted since 1997 with several churches being established in this strategic location. [Link]
<
p>I can’t help but notice that the U.S.-facing marketing site omits the foreign-sounding name of the state. But I can’t hate on anyone who repairs cleft palates in dalit neighborhoods:
Dr. Lall had been trying to get a plastic surgery group into this area for many years. There are approximately 350 children and young adults needing cleft lip/palate surgery in the district of Damoh alone. [Link]
<
p>Yet even that site tugs at the heartstrings in the usual way:
Central India Christian Mission, CICM, is an oasis for the “untouchables”, the lowest cast members in one of the poorest countries on earth. [Link]
<
p>India is hardly one of the world’s poorest countries. It’s fourth in the world in GDP, after the U.S., China and Japan and ahead of Germany, the UK, France, Italy, Russia, Canada, South Korea, Taiwan, Saudi Arabia, Israel and Singapore. In GDP per capita, it’s in the third quartile and not in the 50 poorest. It is, however, one of the countries with the highest number of poor.
Truesay Chick pea! 🙂
My two cents: P. Sanal Mohan’s excellent paper on subaltern conversions in colonial India emphasizes the autonomous agency of (in this case) dalits in making such decisions. The common notion of rice conversions among supposedly ignorant and desperate people is innacurate and simplistic.
The common notion of rice conversions among supposedly ignorant and desperate people is innacurate and simplistic.
well, perhaps innacurate, but saying it is simplistic is simplistic. is it just coincidence that conversions in india tend to have a SES correlation? is it coincidence that the #1 predictor of your religion affiliation is your parents’ religious affiliation?
i am one for making free choices, but i think it is naive to ignore the proximate factors which scaffold the “choices” you make.
Daycruz,
You either don’t get or don’t want to see what the problem is. You surely have the right to see the world as you wish. What I’m looking for is to be left alone – I don’t want to listen to Gospels or any propoganda. You say “Here’s the way- you can choose it or reject it” You reject it? ” Again, its presumptuous of you to imagine you know its ‘the’ way for me. It is I who will decide whether there’s a way, any way, whatever. I don’t want your way to be shoved in my face however politely, the same as I’m not overly eager to expose my belief systems on you until you seek them out. And the reason is – your way is exclusionist and dismissive of a non-christian life for reasons that are purely non-rational.
The unsolicited attempts to liberate souls is comparable to junk mail. The information was unsolicited!!
Also, a conversion is worth it only by spiritual fulfillment of the convert. Everything else is enticement to convert for its own sake – free food, education, healthcare etc. Show me a conversion without access to improved material life, and I’ll show you ten that wouldn’t be were it not for material gains.
Hey Razib,
“frankly, that’s a very hindu latitudinarian viewpoint that you are demanding be normative.” Big words but true. Like I said above, I just wish people minded their own business and didn’t define it as minding other’s businesses as well.
Seeker,
I find that we actually agree on some points. Let me clarify; If you tell me that you don’t want to hear me say the gospel to you- I will not preach it to you. But, you do not have the right to deny others the right of hearing the gospel if they choose to. I’m not going to get into the materialism standpoint- that’s really a personal choice. Prosperity theology is very rampant in America and it is rampant around the globe. I hope I made myself clear about the other issues.
Like I said above, I just wish people minded their own business and didn’t define it as minding other’s businesses as well.
hey, i don’t give a shit what anyone thinks, if they don’t bother me. but, i’ve learned to live with the fact that people will take and interest in what we are doing. the only way pure amity emerges is by wiping away either your kind (everyone keep to themself) or daycruz’s kind (everyone bend the knee to christ, or listen to said message). i see no near future where such unanimity is plausible, so i say keep the shoutin’ civil and learn to live with public disagreemants.
also, people here seem offended that daycruz has x views which he is expressing. the first is that his comment was responsive, if you look at his weblog he has no problem witnessing, but i wouldn’t have known he was christian if i hadn’t checked out his blog a while ago. the second is that the problem isn’t daycruz, don’t make it all personal, it’s his religion. he’s only on the unwitting carrier of a meme which demands that he spread it all about. hate the sin, not the sinner.
Once again, Razib, it is the Northwest bloggers that are up at 3:00 am.. perhaps we should do something else with our time. 🙂
With all due respect everyone, Razib is right. Daycruz is being very polite and restrained in expressing his/her religious views, and although I don’t personally agree with them (for obvious reasons — take a look at my name), he/she is entitled to his/her opinion as long as he/she doesn’t become aggressive or abusive towards anyone else.
I can fully understand the resentment people would have towards some evangelical/proselytising interpretations of certain faiths, especially those that state “Either believe in my God and religion or you’re going to Hell”, but I think people should save their ire for the really hardcore aggressive Bible-bashers (and those with similar characteristics from certain other proselytising religions).
Some comments:
*I’ve been in several Desi forums, even liberal and feminist ones, where admitting that I am a Desi evangelical Christian has perceptibly shifted the attitude towards me. It is appalling to see the closed minds of people who claim to be so enlightened.
*The reason Catholics are not considered Christians (along with some Jacobites) is for the reasons already stated by a Catholic– they do not believe that Jesus is the only way to Heaven– a fundamental twist of basic Christianity. (‘Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.’ John 14:6).
*When I talk about Jesus or Christianity, I have nothing to offer the person in terms of food, drink, homes, or new Beamers. All I have is peace, a comfort of knowing what life and eternity is about, and where I will spend mine.
*MOST missionaries I know are good people. I am very sorry Kenyandesi that you had to go through such things, and I am not doubting you that it happened. I wish more people would be true to Christ in their calling; just like we do not decide to stay single because the divorce rate is so high, we should not judge a religion by it’s followers. Mahatma Gandhi so aptly said, “I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ.”
(Daycruz for you–> Mat 5:10,12)
“*The reason Catholics are not considered Christians (along with some Jacobites) is for the reasons already stated by a Catholic– they do not believe that Jesus is the only way to Heaven– a fundamental twist of basic Christianity. (‘Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.’ John 14:6).”
Can someone verify this with other sources?
Isn’t a Christian a follower of Christ? Isn’t Christianity a religion that happens to be divided into a bazillion sects where Catholicism and “Orthodox” happen to be major ones?
just trying to get some real info amidst the comments
bin wrote… *…where admitting that I am a Desi evangelical Christian has perceptibly shifted the attitude towards me. It is appalling to see the closed minds of people who claim to be so enlightened.
Why take offence ? Just as you have a right to inform me that I am going to hell lest I should become a Christian, I have the right to inform you that you are a bigot. We stand in agreement on our disagreement. The experience on other blogs you think you had is not exceptional. If you are brown…try this… assume a Hindu name and spend a day in Wichita KS. We will trade our experiences.
*When I talk about Jesus or Christianity, I have nothing to offer the person in terms of food, drink, homes, or new Beamers. All I have is peace, a comfort of knowing what life and eternity is about, and where I will spend mine.
This is noble, till you get into the business of “HELL”. Also, the outrage that some have ( I do not share that sentiment) over conversion is when food, drink homes, ..TATA-Sumo…being supplied with a new name and religion.
You can try to sugarcoat the inherent insult in the core of evangelical message but try not get offended when people see right through this “message of compassion”.
The whole missionary idea that you are already indebted to Jesus from birth and you are going to hell otherwise, it’s the oldest confidence trick in the book. It reminds me of Hare Krishnas pressing a “free” flower on you at airports and then asking for a “donation.” It’s very much like a stranger saying “your mom’s fallen sick, so you must come with me.” I thought we didn’t believe in visiting the sins of the father on the son.
I don’t mean to be stepping on razib’s turf (christian history) 🙂 But yes, the church does have many “sects”/denominations. The major splittings/schisms in the church came around the 5th century (when the “oriental” orthodox churches — nestorian & monophysite — split), in the 10th century when the catholics split with the other orthodox churches (greek,slavic etc.) and then the protestant reformation in the 16th century when they split from the catholics. And each sect believes that their beliefs are, to varying degrees, superior to all the other ones. Commenter bin apparently takes a more hardline view.
Also: though I am not one, I know that even many evangelical christians do not take as hardline a view of other religions as bin does. They do not believe that everybody but consciously professing christians are condemned to hell (like bin does). Source: page 347 of this book.
hey, i don’t give a shit what anyone thinks, if they don’t bother me.
See, only you know what bothers you. If what daycruz says bothers you then will you accept what seeker was saying.
the only way pure amity emerges is by wiping away either your kind (everyone keep to themself) or daycruz’s kind (everyone bend the knee to christ, or listen to said message). i see no near future where such unanimity is plausible, so i say keep the shoutin’ civil and learn to live with public disagreemants.
Cool. But only works in theory. I do not live my life in a blog so I donno if by keeping the shouting civil i will be able to keep shouting (or speaking even). You are a knowledgeable atheist, still for the kicks, would you try the Bismillah (a civil loud shout) before boarding a NY Subway. “We are a nation of street-preachers” like you said. It should be OK.
also, people here seem offended that daycruz has x views which he is expressing. the first is that his comment was responsive, if you look at his weblog he has no problem witnessing, but i wouldn’t have known he was Christian if i hadn’t checked out his blog a while ago. the second is that the problem isn’t daycruz, don’t make it all personal, it’s his religion. he’s only on the unwitting carrier of a meme which demands that he spread it all about. hate the sin, not the sinner.
Daycruz is able to do what he is doing because he a Xtian. Do you expect (in reality not in theory) a similarly rabid Muslim or even a Hindu will get away with this kind of crap. The message of Kafirs going to Jehannum (i guess) ‘coz they Kufred can be stimulating for the protectors of the homeland .
It is not misplaced. I should remind the poster that the subcontinent was divided on religious lines. This is why religious demographics is a primary focus of Indian strategic thanking.
I don’t think anyone is talking about indigenous Indian Christians who have succesfully appropriated Indian institutions like the caste system to survive and even prosper. Its American-style Christianity Inc. which seems to irk.
Certain Christian organizations do INDEED support separatism in the Northeast.
This is false. Sankara represents a narrow stream of Hinduism which in modern times appeals primarily to intellectuals. Talk to any Shaivite about whether he thinks Sankara reformed Hinduism.
If another religion offers them dignity, equality and a chance for salvation, whatÂ’s wrong with that?
Noble rhetoric, but divorced from ground realities.
The truth is that upper-caste Christians look down on Dalit Christians. Why, a few posters in this thread have said as much. One said the upstart pentecostal Christians were from lower castes and “dark”.
In David Davidar’s novel, the House of Blue Mangoes, you will read of a Church separated by a curtain so that the upper caste Christians did not have to see or be polluted by lower caste Christians. This is a common phenomenon. Vellala Christians look down upon Nadar Chritians and Dalit Christians. There are even some who claim Brahmin status! The Dalit Christians themselves complain that they are marginalized.
Sure. I hope you support “freely chosen” reconversion as well.
Communis Rixatrix :
“Resistance is futile, you will be assimilated”
KIT,
i have been in the USofA and have to experience rather aggressive preaching from hare krishnas and black muslims. you are right to some extent than daycruz is cut a little slack because the christian worldview isn’t considered weird, but let’s be careful about an either-or proposition. this thread was initiated by a rather broad topic, missionaries in india.
let me address the issue of daycruz thinking non-his-beliefs-will-go-to-hell. it doesn’t bother me, and the reason is they are his beliefs, i think they are ludicruous. if, on the other hand, someone assumed i was muslim because of my name (which happened a few times before i changed my handle) i would become offended, because that was a precise and specific assumption about me, rather than a general one in an abstract sense. to extend the analogy, if someone said they weren’t attracted to brown dudes, i wouldn’t care much, but if someone said i was butt ugly, it would bother me cuz it was more specific. i take daycruz’s assertions in the more general sense.
in any case, there is a wide range of christians, from nutters like “bin” who showed exactly how unseemly and disrespectful that sort of christianity can be (i.e.; dismissing the thousand year tradition of catholics as ‘non-christian’), to people like daycruz, who have pretty strong beliefs that would offend people but manage to be civil, to christians whose views aren’t even exclusive. i understand why people put them all in the same ‘missionary’ box, but i don’t think one should.
frankly, overall i think christian missionaries have had a strong positive impact on india in the historical long view, from founding schools, hospitals all the way to initiating reform movements in non-christian movements.
p.s. you might be amused that some of my more liberal (and naive) friends are actually more tolerant of islam than fundamentalist christianity, though in terms of the attitude toward unbelievers they aren’t that different.
“The reason Catholics are not considered Christians…”
Would be news to Catholics, I’m sure.
To those who say that believe in my god or you are going to hell ….
I give an old saying : “You go to heaven for the weather and hell for the company”
I wouldn’t describe Daycruz’s behaviour on SM so far to be “rabid” — his/her views are fairly orthodox Christianity but so far haven’t been expressed in a particularly aggressive way. I’ve heard far worse, from both “born-again” Christians and conservative Muslims.
Mark IV –
It is precisely because India was divided along religious lines that there needs to be greater wisdom in dealing with religious issues now.
American Christianity Inc. has only been in India for about thirty years – the Evangelical Christian community in India goes back some two hundred years.
Some Christians support separatism in the North East and others strongly oppose it because of the violence and political unrest the separatist movements have caused.
Advaita and Samkhya/Yoga are the more influential schools of Hindu philosophy today, and the chief textual sources of these traditions date from after the advent of Christianity in India.
Ironically, caste is most prevalent among the older Christian communities and least prevalent among evangelical Christian communities in India.
Reconversion – The PRDS group described in Mohan’s paper eventually reconverted to Hinduism with no opposition from local Christian groups and Churches – the point being they were free to make whatever decision they wished to make.
Razib wrote….
… you are right to some extent than daycruz is cut a little slack because the christian worldview isn’t considered weird,… That is a problem. I think even chrisitians believe we are all children of god so why is a fire breathing Muslim preacher more weird than say, Pat Robertson.
Â…someone assumed i was muslim because of my name (which happened a few times before i changed my handle) i would become offended, because that was a precise and specific assumption about me, rather than a general one in an abstract sense. to extend the analogy, if someone said they weren’t attracted to brown dudes, i wouldn’t care much, but if someone said i was butt ugly, it would bother me cuz it was more specific. i take daycruz’s assertions in the more general sense.
Not quite. Daycruz makes an allusion that non Xtians are going to hell. This is precise enough for me..and on your anology what if daycruz said that all brown dudes are butt ugly. Would you be offended then ? At least this is how I hear daycruz.
in any case, there is a wide range of christians, from nutters like “bin” who showed exactly how unseemly and disrespectful that sort of christianity can be (i.e.; dismissing the thousand year tradition of catholics as ‘non-christian’), to people like daycruz, who have pretty strong beliefs that would offend people but manage to be civil, to christians whose views aren’t even exclusive. i understand why people put them all in the same ‘missionary’ box, but i don’t think one should.
I’d say the width of the spectrum from “bin” to “daycruz” is pretty thin and pretty unimpressive. I would like think its much wider in reality. And again what you consider civil may not be civil to others. My anology of a pious Muslim offering Namaz at NY Subway station applies here. Anecdote – A muslim girl (student) was barred from saying Bismillah before her presentation in a classroom setting. The reason given was what she was doing was “not the culture of this country”. Now was that a civil response by the instructor of the class or was the girl being uncivil. I am not a Muslim but for some reason this story outraged me.
frankly, overall i think christian missionaries have had a strong positive impact on india in the historical long view, from founding schools, hospitals all the way to initiating reform movements in non-christian movements.
Agree 100%. That is the main reason I do not get the “re-converter” point of view. It may sound hokey but I apply the “been there” test. Most of the people who are served by missionaries are improvised and living in absolute poverty. Some of those who are served choose to convert. I have never “been there” so I do not what I would do under those circumstances.
p.s. you might be amused that some of my more liberal (and naive) friends are actually more tolerant of islam than fundamentalist christianity, though in terms of the attitude toward unbelievers they aren’t that different.
I am fine with unbelievers as long they do not condemn me to hell for believing.
. I wouldn’t describe Daycruz’s behaviour on SM so far to be “rabid” — his/her views are fairly orthodox Christianity but so far haven’t been expressed in a particularly aggressive way. I’ve heard far worse, from both “born-again” Christians and conservative Muslims.
Not sure about orthodox Christianity part. I grew up with friends like “Dinoo”s and “Jose”s ( pronounced josee). Pretty orthodox Xtians – never they or their parents (i.e. UncleJi and AuntyJi to us all ) told me that I am going to hell.
To me, what daycruz espouses is not agressive Christianity it is downright bigotory.
I assume you made a typo so here is what I found for the definition of the word bigot (one who commits bigotry)
Since that doesn’t really tell the whole story, I decided to look up the word intolerance:
Bigotry and Intolerance are words we throw around all the time. So here’s how it works.. If you don’t believe in Jesus Christ, I believe you are going to hell. There. Did it hurt you? You don’t have to believe a word of it. Doesn’t mean I won’t help you out on the street or make you sit in the back of the bus. Doesn’t mean I’m gonna do anything weird to you. Just means that I believe your afterlife will be different from mine. It is just a belief and nothing more. That is all. If that is bigotry, then I suppose I am a bigot. But from looking at the definitions, I doubt you can lay that label on me.
Read the Bible darling. YOU, as a falible human being, have NO right to condemn anyone to hell. Only your God can do that. For the Bible tells me so.
Besides, who said anything about you going to heaven? You might be cast to hell too, so work on yourself first buddy, and when you’ve cast that log outta your eye, come a’knocking 🙂
To me, what daycruz espouses is not agressive Christianity it is downright bigotory. I assume you made a typo so here is what I found for the definition of the word bigot (one who commits bigotry)
Bigot: One who is strongly partial to one’s own group, religion, race, or politics and is intolerant of those who differ.
No typo. And thanks for the definition.
So if you are not a bigot would you accept Ganesha in your heart. We will even hold hands and do an aarti. I will bring the prasadam, it is good stuff..
See you cannot have it both ways. You cannot espouse a belief system that condemns people to eternal damnation if they do not share that belief system and then claim innocence. Trust me, the assault of the believers on non-believers need not be absolute direct physical violence. Even bigots have evolved. Just as they insult people with very sophisticated means their modus-oprandi has evolved too. Ask a few non-Xtian browns of their experiences while employed in Heart-Lund-based companies. Try my “been there” test…assume a Hindu or better still a Muslim name and experience the heartland. You will understand why I say what I say about you. I’d call you naïve but you have suggested that you have been around and know stuff. So I will settle for bigot. Its just like your belief that I am going to hell.
Razib – should daycruz be offended when I say he is a bigot ? …’coz I believe that he is one.
daycruz:>>If you don’t believe in Jesus Christ, I believe you are going to hell.
What if I believe in Jesus Christ, and in addition believe in Rama, Ganesha, Sankhya/Advaita/Vishishtadvaita, Gita, Vedas etc?
M. Nam
Kenyandesi, My friend, I did not condemn you to hell. I just said I believe you are going to hell. Michael Jackson got arrested. I believed he would be put away for a long time. He was not. Now am I condeming you because you do not believe? No. I just hold on to Biblical scripture that say Jesus Christ is the only way to heaven. If my brother points out the plank in my eye, or the scriptures reveal to me the plank in my eye, I will certainly take it out. But read the rest of the Bible, where it talks about what uses it has. To rebuke, to correct, to counsel, to encourage.
And, KIT, no I wont trust you on that one. While it can be verbal attacks. Expressing my beliefs in full simply means I tell you about God. We are arguing from two completely different viewpoints. You don’t have to accept my viewpoint simple as that, and I don’t have to accept yours. But I don’t think any less of you as a person because of that. So are you saying that because I would not worship Ganpathi that I would be considered a bigot? Now isn’t that bigotry? You can worship Ganpathi all you want.. I choose not to. I simply believe there is only one God.
I live over here on the West Coast where Razib is so my views are a bit different about the workplace. I’ve just found that many of my employers assume that I am a vegetarian or don’t eat meat simply because I’m brown. I am sorry to hear people are treated terribly because of their religion, that is illegal and shouldn’t happen. But once again, what are you really debating?
Am I a bigot because I don’t give you a job because you are a Hindu?
or Am I a bigot because I simply believe that your chosen way does not lead to Christ?
As Kenyan Desi said, I do not have the right to condemn anyone to Hell. But I know the Bible says what gets you to Heaven and what gets you to Hell. And there are clear differences shown.
M. Nam,
I can only tell you what Jesus said: “I am the way, the truth, and the life, no one comes to the Father except through me.”
BUT, does it mean you have no right to read the Vedas, or believe in any other God? Of course not, you have every right to. As I have the right to say you are wrong. And that is all I’m saying.
Kenyandesi darling,
I do not believe Daycruz condemned you to hell by saying “If you don’t believe in Jesus Christ, I believe you are going to hell” … When did it become so easy to condemn someone to hell just by uttering the right combination of words?!?
To me that sounded more like the product of his faith and belief. It only seems like he voiced his concern over something that he thought would be the probable state of your future.
You did rightly call him a fallible being. So given the fact that he does commit mistakes and sins, he was showing something wrong on your side too. What Jesus meant was “Do not go around correcting and admonishing people for their wrongdoings when you yourself commit equally punishable sins”. Who in this world can then go about correcting another one, as there is no one in this world who can say that he has never sinned!!
if you play as the spanish in AGE of EMPIRES you can use your missionary unit to forceably convert the emeny units to one of your units
Razib – should daycruz be offended when I say he is a bigot ? …’coz I believe that he is one.
frankly, i think you are talking past each. i give daycruz slack in regards to telling us we are going to hell because it didn’t come out of the blue, it was prompted by blanket condemnations of missionaries. i also think you are doing a little apples and oranges here. i have alluded to the fact before that being a christian and non-christian as a brown person in america is qualitatively different (hey, i was an atheist of muslim origin in a 99.5% white town in oregon during my teenage years, i “been there” too). that being said, ultimately this thread and story in indocentric. it is simply a fact that daycruz will be respected throughout great swaths of the south because he has a “fire for christ,” while people would make fun of you as an idolator. on the other hand, i can point you to towns in california and oregon where hindus would be much more accepted than an evangelical christian like daycruz. they might even think that daycruz is a “sellout” to his “real culture.” overall obviously evangelical christian browns have the long end of the stick here, but, it isn’t an either or.
in regards to india, that’s a different culture and country. i have watched how evangelical christians have been known to missionize and spread the gospel, and some of the attitudes and behaviors are pretty unseemly. i don’t need to go into it. the question though is should they be tolerated? these are complicated issues, because unlike some here i don’t think that many poor, illiterate people have that much agency. that being said, questions i would ask are, 1) are those poor illiterate people better or worse off after eating a hot meal and converting to christianity because the missionaries have told them everyone else in the country is christian (this is a tactic i have seen attested to in nepal and indonesia on isolated people), 2) what the ramifications for the rest of society if you intervene and pass laws by fiat to block the poor illiterate people from being abused? when the gov. starts regulating speech and communication wholesale, i think that is problematic. as an american, in this nation my opinions are pretty straightforward, we have the 1st ammendment. in nations like india, well, they have different legal traditions (though still skewed toward liberty from what i can tell). then there is the issue that there are many missionaries who do far more material good than harvesting of souls. and so on.
do i find daycruz to be a “bigot”? well, i think that term is overused a lot, and i’m not much into sensitivity. i’m the person who will ask people if they believe in god, and if they say yes, i’ll tell them “ah, so you’re gullible, i have a bridge to sell you….” being as offensive as i am, i am obviously cautious about casting aspersions at others 🙂 he who has not sinned cast the first stone and all. in any case, let me be frank in that there are all sorts of bigotry, south asians from all backgrounds know the importance of skin color, good background, caste, north vs. south, amongst us all. hindus are certainly broad minded people when it comes to religious tolerance, and i wish the hindu religion well vis-a-vi christianity and islam, if it were not for caste. a lot of color will leave the world if hinduism disappears. but that being said, with all the bigotries of south asia, i’m not going to put a special spotlight on daycruz’s exclusivist religious views (which aren’t that different from many muslims). he thinks i don’t believe in jesus, so i’m going to hell, and i don’t think either of these things are anything more than ideas in the heads of him and his friends. so why should i care?
And, KIT, no I wont trust you on that one.
Convenient for you.
While it can be verbal attacks. Expressing my beliefs in full simply means I tell you about God.
But you believe that Hindus are going to hell. Its is with us or against us. Aren’t you fighting the evil but fine folks from hell.
We are arguing from two completely different viewpoints.
It is possible.
You don’t have to accept my viewpoint simple as that, and I don’t have to accept yours. But I don’t think any less of you as a person because of that.
You are my brother.
So are you saying that because I would not worship Ganpathi that I would be considered a bigot? Now isn’t that bigotry? You can worship Ganpathi all you want.. I choose not to. I simply believe there is only one God
If it was just that simple. You believe , and you share that with me that Ganpathi will lead me straight to eternal damnation. I call that bigotry.
Look… I’d hate to lower the intensity of this debate so can you for the sake of this debate firmly assume that I believe that you are a bigot. Lets not get too nice with each other.
About west-coast, “been there”, north-west actually. Nice.
Daycruz: When you say you believe I will go to hell, is that like you believed Michael Jackson would be imprisoned?
You passed a judgement on his actions based on the information you had at hand AND picked out what you thought would be the consequence (prison) even before his trial. Now in this there was a chance you would be wrong, (and you were, according to those chosen to pass judgement on him) and he went home.
Now, since you believe I will go to hell (given what you know: I will not convert, and your bible tells you those who do not believe will go to hell), is there a chance I could still slip into heaven?
And if you believe that there is NO chance for me to slip in, then you are saying that I WILL go to hell. Which in my books is passing a judgement on my future and what you where you think I should spend eternity before my trial before your God.
That’s what I don’t get about Christian evangelists. If you spoke of Jesus’ love rather than threaten the world with fire and brimstone they might get less flak.
I have read the bible, and on a basic level, agree with the fact that people should not lie, cheat, steal, should love their neighbours and do unto others. I just don’t agree that it’s the only way to salvation.
still can’t debate, eh? nice squirrel tactics.
do you have any of your own thoughts or are they all stolen from cyborgs?
Razib has also stated this, but there’s a line you have to draw. You can’t continue saying, ohhh don’t challenge someone on the way they think, because it’s not them, their RELIGION makes them do it.
I think this is insulting to Daycruz. He has a mind (and a damn fine one, as evidenced by his civil responses) of his own and is making an informed decision to repeat what the bible says.
It only seems like he voiced his concern over something that he thought would be the probable state of your future.
Right and that’s between me and God thank you 🙂
Precisely. I know what it means but thank you for clarifying that for me. By the way you contradict yourself by saying that “he was showing something wrong on your side” and then saying that Jesus said you shouldn’t do that. And also note that because I don’t believe the Bible to be infallible, you can’t hold me to that…
I was simply stating that before judging me and saying I will go to hell and he won’t
he should consider whether he really will have a different afterlife, bacause again only God has the right to admit you (according to the Bible)
Again exactly, so why do evangelists want to “correct” me from my “wrong” religious path?
DayCruz and BJ, Are you in favor of the Iraq war ?? Iraq war is very important in the evangelical community, so I have heared. Its because Rapture and the second coming of Jesus as the “holy” land belonging to the Jews and Jews alone (who are going to accept Jesus after 2/3 of them die) and all those factors coming togather. Right ??? So to strenghten Israel the Iraq action has been taken, right ?? (Becasue Saddam was giving $25K to suicide bombers)
Why does your god need help from humans (such as GWB, in getting rid of Saddam)?? Doesnt sound very strong God. So if your God is weak, then how can I believe in the promise of Heaven given thru’ him? Or your entire thesis is flawed. One of two has to right. :-))
Daycruz,
I think you need to clarify exactly why you have come on this blog and made statements claiming that non-Christians will “go to Hell”. Was it just a politely-stated point of view as per your interpretation of Christianity, or do you genuinely want to argue this issue out with everyone here ?
If it’s the former, then I think you are entitled to your opinion as long as you don’t force it on anyone else or don’t keep hitting non-Christians over the head with it (especially if they obviously find this view offensive). If it’s the latter, then you need to clarify whether you really want to initiate a dialogue with other SM participants on this subject, and are ready to hear opposing arguments.
You really need to make your intentions clear before we go any further and in order to prevent anyone unnecessarily wasting any time on this debate.
You’re welcome to continue the
flamesdebate here.