The U.S. may sell Patriot II missile defense systems to India, and Pakistan is anxious (via the Acorn):
A US defence team began briefing Indian officials in New Delhi on Monday on the Patriot missiles. In Washington’s diplomatic circles the visit is seen as a prelude to the sale… “If the Patriots are delivered to India, it will seriously imbalance Pakistan’s strategic capabilities and can trigger an arms race in the Subcontinent,” said the South Asian defence expert… India will be the sixth country with which Washington has shared this technology after Israel, Japan, Germany, Saudi Arabia and Taiwan. [Dawn]
Why do I get the feeling that the big kids are selling switchblades to the little ones?
Thanks to the support from China and North Korea, Pakistan now enjoys a huge lead over India on the development and deployment of missiles… It is to plug this missile gap that India has been focusing on possible cooperation with Israel and the United States on missile defence, with emphasis on proven systems like the Arrow and the Patriot. [Indian Express]
The Patriot missile system is a stupid fuckup. First of all its tests had failed a year or so back and now Mr. Bush and his Co. are trying to sell it to India? LOL
Let’s have a hypothetical situation here. If Pakistan launches a missile on India let’s say New Delhi (Obvious target) then it takes the missile about 8 minutes to reach the target. Do you seriously think 8 minutes is enough to launch a Patriot missile to counter the threat?
No way!
Anon:
You are confusing the Patriot missle system with the kinetic engergy interceptor. The later is the one that keeps failing and was designed to intercept ICBMs (in space). The Patriot II had been deployed in Iraq to cover Kuwait. One missle got through the perimeter and fell near a mall if I am not mistaken.
The Patriot II and Arrow systems are designed to counter IRBMs and SRBMs (intermediate and short range ballistic missles)
8 minutes is plenty of time to intercept. Even if the chance is 50-50 (not the real number, just stating hypothetically), I will take those odds when faced with 100 percent destruction via a nuke. Patriots and Arrows are not a total solution, nothing ever will be for now, however its better than nothing.
LoL @ the weapons nerds 😉
Punjabi Boy. Shut up and take notice of how much longer the bus you’re on is than the one you used to ride.
Anyway, I’m more concerned with the point made earlier, that this is the big boys selling switchblades to the schoolyard kids. I hate that America develops weapons technology for export.
And ballistic missile technology (especially defense) is one of those areas where you can spend a LOT of money and then have the whole thing not work due to something stupid like bad phone lines, or a power outage, or not realizing that there are cheap long-range radar-homing missiles that can take out ABM sites with little or no warning.
The developing world is getting better about what they buy when they’re in the gun store, but there’s still this lack of realization that American weapons frequently are part of a bigger picture system that is carefully thought out and has few conventional “frontal” weaknesses. You never hear the militaries of developing countries talk about combined-arms tactics, or force-in-motion, which is why the Iraqi Army got so freakin’ SPANKED twice in a row by an inferior force of numbers (superior training, tactics, and equipment will prevail over numbers any day).
But that training just isn’t sexy. It’s easier to buy another gun than it is to learn how to shoot the one you’ve got.
(Heh…and all this from me. I’m the most anti-gun person you’ll ever meet).
Radar Operator(via secure line): Sir, it looks like Pakistan has just launched a missile on us. The trajectory looks like its going to land on Delhi. I am not sure it the origin was pakistan though! [ETA 8 minutes]
Army General: Ok let me talk to the Defence Minister and ask him what needs to be done.
Army General calls defense minister.
Army General to Defence Minister: Sir, Pakistani army has launched a missile on us. Its going to land in delhi. [ETA 6:53]
Defence Minister: WHAT???? Let me talk to Prime minister right now!!!
Defence minister calls his wife: Honey get the kids and get out of delhi go to your sasural in Lucknow i will be there soon.
Wife: WHY???
Defence Minister: no time to explain gooooooooooo!
[ETA 5:34]
Defence Minister: Sire, Pakistan has launched a missle on us!!! Prime minister: where is it going to land?? Defence Minister: Looks like delhi!
Prime minister: ok let me talk to the Honourable President!
[ETA 4 minutes]
Prime minister: Sire a pakistani missile has been launched with the target being delhi! President: Did we launch the Patriot missiles? Prime minister: I need ur permission sir!
President: wtf! are u crazy go launch them now!
[ETA 3 minutes]
Prime minister calls defence minister: Launch the patriot missiles!!! Defence minister calls army general: Launch the patriot missiles!!! army general calls field commander: Launch the patriot missiles!!!
[ETA 2.50]
Patriot missiles are launched. Unfortunately the missiles are true patriots. they convienently miss their target. WHY? everybody asks…
Turns out the EVIL Satan had sent that missile to kill out all the corrupt politicians. He was tired of the competetion!
so the missiles strike the parliament when it was in session thankfully the president and the prime minster where evacuated to safety. All the handful of good politicians were sick on that day due to some misterious illness!
Thank you Satan
The Indian Military has enough authority to launch a missle at something if they think it is a nuke. Since the LOC is always at a de-facto state of war, plenty of leeway has been given to commanders.
Your scenario, which is quite humorous, is a little far fetched (though not too far off). As you said, the time is too short to do anything OTHER THAN launch a battery of Patriots/Arrow (Patriots are designed for longer ranges, while Arrow was designed for Israel’s small boundaries.) The ministers could do whatever they want, no one is getting out of Delhi in a 8 minute time frame.
The point is, the big boys want a status quo between India and Pakistan. Any change in the status quo towards war seriously sends ripples through the system.
India actually approached the United States a few years ago and on a diplomatic level showed interest in anti-ballistic missle technology. I don’t have the article here, but the USA essentially was looking for support from other countries post 9-11, and India raised its hand to ‘ask’ a few questions.
Analysts know that Pakistan has a more efficient missle system (thanks to the China and DPRK). India has a system designed for retaliation, not first strike. I do not see a problem aquiring Patriots or Arrows. Indo-Israeli military business is booming. Pakistan is stuck between a rock and a hard place. On one side it can’t piss off the USA, on the other it feels it can’t cave in to India also.
Patriots and Arrows are amended SAMs (surface to air missles) that operate with phased array radars (which India has developed indigenously, known as ‘Rajendra’). They are not the billion dollar uber systems that the USA has tested and failed at. The major targets protected by an outer perimeter of Patriots and closer/inner one of Arrows might prove to be very effective.
Military nurds RULE! O’Doyle RULES!!! (sorry had to get the Billy Madison quote in somehow.)
Not to detract from the India-Pakistan discussion, but isn’t it equally important to discuss what extent the U.S. is using this sale to enhance its strategic global missile command?
India v. Pakistan is a good debate, it’s perpetual (i.e. whose posturing has greater peacemaking capability?). And India buying missile defense systems from the U.S., rifles from Israel, jets from Russia, etc. is equally compelling (i.e. what of India’s ability to produce indigenous weapons and defense?). But the question of how important a U.S.-sale of missile defense to India would be in terms of the current N.Korea conundrum is… even more interesting.
Theres a theory in International Relations that when the arms gap between two traditional enemies grows too wide, it leads to war. In South Asia the arms gap between India and Pakistan will keep getting wider and wider. India with its growing economic and technological muscle will purchase/produce newer arms while Pakistan with its faltering economy will fall further behind. A conventional war is inevitable.
The entire Missile basket of pakistan is of Chinese and or North Korean design,manufactured and transported to Pakistan.
A sophistecated system as missile is, if not produced by the country is prone to fail during critical hour since it’s design and all parameters are not known. What is known is only the operation.
In contrast India’s basic Missile system is home grown hence is dependable and it’s circle of accuracy is also quite appretiable.Hence entire system and subsystem osf the misile is known and can be fired with the fullest confidence.
pakistan had in all past war with India had all the sophistecatyed weapons of America and Europe. What happened to them. All the battles they lost.
Even during Kargil war they lost miserably and virtually were kicked out of the intruded area. Hence Pakistan a failed state and if they venture another war with India the result will be definite break up of pakistan.
the only nation to have a ‘indigenous’ missile system was Germany , every one else copied from them. the rest of the newer nations copied from the copiers. This crap about India having an Indigenous design is real hogwash, The Prithvi is redesigned version of the SA-2(Russian), the likes of the Brahmos missile are primarily russian with some input from India, this safeguards india from the MTCR, by claiming it as a joint venture. The Pakistani’s claim their missilesto be Indigenous purely to bypass the MTCR, otherwise the USA will sanction the nations involved. The difference between India and Pakistan is that India inherited all the armament factories from the british, whereas Pakistan had to start from scratch. With all the help India is receiving from Russia, europe, Israel and US, they should have been at the forefront of technology, Pakistan on the other hand having been hit badly by sanctions still endeavours to have some sort of parity. If Pakistan was given the support that India receives , it would by now have been a regional superpower. even now we in the west sanction Pakistan, but sell to India. I must give credit to Pakistani ingenuity, for keeping their airforce operational, with a saety record second to none. whereas India has lost in the region of 120 aircraft in the last decade. In the end its too dangerous for either party to use nuclear weapons due to being neighbours, the consequences would be horrendous. for India and Pakistan to remain powerful they must create peace in the region.
No telling if anyone is still even reading this particular forum, but the comment of domestic weapons systems being better due to a more intimate knowledge of of system instead of just operational knowledge is a little far off. When the US sells a system, the company that manufactures sends representatives, who are on hand the entire time that the particular system is being used by the country. In effect, an in house expert any time you want one. On the other hand, you train the operators and maintainers in the same manner that you train our operators and maintainers, the soldiers. Same training plus same support equals same results.
why do every one compares India with Pakistan. There is a lot of differences b/w them and is shown in every stream. Let it be technology of missile or something else India far out weights Pakistan in every aspect. If one is equipped with the missile technology one still needs funds, technology to sustain it u can not deploy missiles and forget them it needs a lot of recourses to sustain & maintain them. With the 9/11 September attacks every money laundering channel, donation to Pakistan have stopped; they are having money which the US have given as a token money to fight the terrorism. This will not last much longer. Once its economy, which was already on the verge of collapse fails the terrorist breeder reactor will explode making Pakistan evaporate and then there will be no question of security threats neither to India nor to the world. But for buying patriot missile system US and India should go forward with the deal along with technology transfers after all great nations should develop this kind of technology and make it flawless but still the technology regarding the patriot missile system is still in evolutionary phase.
Mr sitesh goswamy First let me correct your information about Pak/India wars, 1st:Indo-Pakistani War of 1947: Pakistan occupies one third of Kashmir (which India claims as its territory).(Now it is Called Azad Kashmir not accupied kashmir). 2nd:Indo-Pakistani War of 1965: India attacks Pakistan on all fronts after attempts by Pakistani troops to infiltrate into Indian occupied Kashmir. War results in strategic stalemate and small tactical victories for India 3rd:Indo-Pakistani War of 1971: India defeats Pakistan only in Bangladesh due to the “baghawat” of bangali’s resulting in the independence of Bangladesh(indeed occupation of india) 4th:Indo-Pakistani War of 1999, also known as “Kargil War”: Kashmiri insurgents backed by Pakistani troops capture Indian army posts. International pressure forces Pakistan to back down. The war ends with India regaining possession of Kargil.(Again the holy war for kashmiri brother’s)
So this is history Mr swamy, and if you look around it you will see that Pakistani army fought’s only for the independence of kashmiri’s.
my friend mr khan, let me remind u that India has in both 1971 and 1965 returned a lot of captured territory to pakistan as a goodwill gesture which they dont understand. As of 1999 kargil, had the Indian troops being not restrained from crossing LoC then maybe there would have been no Pakistan today. And I dont think Pakistan needs to interfere in India internal problems (read Kashmir) and claim it as Azad Kashmir. If its so much concerned about Kashmir’s freedom then why doesnt it remove its own army from occupied areas and allow Kasmiris self rule a independent nation. Pakistan is just an illegally occupying force in Kashmir. And as regards weapons, I think 100 percent of Pakistani defence system is donated by advanced western countries. U cannot compare beggars to buyers sir.