Yesterday, our eyes were on the UK as British police prevented two dozen suspects from using airplanes for perfidy; today, I woke up to more disturbing news, via Reuters:
The U.S. embassy in India warned American citizens on Friday of likely terrorist attacks, possibly by al Qaeda, in or around New Delhi and Mumbai in the run-up to the country’s Independence Day celebrations next week.
Just in time for August 15th!
“We have urged U.S. citizens to keep a low profile, be alert and attentive to their surroundings,” an embassy spokesman said.
“The embassy has learned that foreign terrorists, possibly including members of al Qaeda, allegedly intend to carry out a series of attacks,” he said, adding the attacks might occur in or around New Delhi and Mumbai.
As if Mumbai hasn’t been through enough, after last month’s terrorist attack which murdered 200 people and hurt 700 more.
The information was gathered by U.S. intelligence agencies and the embassy was working closely with the Indian government, he added.
“Likely targets include major airports, key central Indian government offices, and major gathering places such as hotels and markets,” he added.
Likely targets include all of us, in some way. This is an extra depressing week…
Kush. This is one of your interviewer’s questions: You are from Afghanistan? That is very exotic!
Risible dude, I have nothing to do with the interview. I just read it on Desicritics, and thought a larger readership from Sepia Mutiny might be interested in the current context, and so linked it. The ladies are from middle-class, upper-middle class, and now India has a growing middle class.
I would not call Afghanistan “exotic” while interviewing in Delhi.
On Gujjubhai’s comment
Alas, we remain locked in the conventional interpretations of history that serve the purpose of ‘nation-states’ and their official ideologies. I strongly recommend this book: Partition of India: Legend and Reality to be read by those interested. H M Seervai has narrated a dispassionate view on the partition that holds the Congress leadership and Mountbatten equally, if not more, were repsonsible for the partition of India. And Seervai was no Muslim communalist and Islamic facist qualified for the ghetto desh!
Faizan,
The fascism allegation applies only to terrorists whose actions and aspirations are in line with the concept of fascism, even if in this case the latter is based on a (mis)interpretation of Islam. It is not directed towards “all” Muslims. I think it’s an accurate description.
Not everyone necessarily believes in collective guilt & collective responsibility.
Have you guys read “My Son the Fanatic”, by Hanif Qureshi? Worth reading.
Islam needs reform, but given this wave of religious fervor and jihadism in the mid-east(partly our fault), it ain’t happening anytime soon.
Mysonthefanatic –
“(partly our fault)”
speake for yourself, msf. not my fault.
anyways, imagine for a moment, that it was hindus who were blowing people up in bangladesh and kashmir, would the muslims confess having collective guilt?
Of course they would, just take note of how they utterly blamed themselves for not thinking about, perhaps maybe considering allowing the thought of denouncing some of the attacks that have happened world wide? Have a little sense of history.
Razarumi,
My point is that regardless of who is to blame for the partition of India, the left as never ever called into question the moral legitimacy of the ideology of Pakistan. Not a single secularist has ever come out and said that the whole notion of creating a nation based on religious affinity above all which resulted in the creation of a retrogressive Islamic nation on the subcontinent as opposed to a secular free democracy (yes, with its warts) is a step back in time and the most horrible communalist development in the history of India. While I have not read the book you mentioned, I would not be surprised if Congress was responsible for the partition – Nehru’s lust for power was only matched by his spinelessness as a leader.
Regardless, my point it that only the Hindu right has ever questioned the legitimacy of the Two Nation Theory and no Indian “secularist” has ever had the intellectual honesty to do so. Secularists in India today are the likes of Samajwadi Party who allies with Muslim fundies and appoints the guy who proclaimed a 50 crore bounty on the head of Danish cartoonists as a state minister. My question to Amardeep is aimed at understanding his take on “secularism” and whether he would show objectivity by debunking a certain notion (which we can all agree upon as anti-secular) whether it was espoused by Kritic or Jinnah.
Gujjubhai, What exactly does two nations theory have to do with terrorism in Britain? I have no interest in blaming or exculpating anyone for the Partition in this thread. Pointless and irrelevant. All that matters is that Pakistan is not currently a very secular or free nation. It also has a government that is at best extremely remiss in cracking down on groups that sponsor terrorist activities both in the subcontinent and abroad.
My notion of secularism is simple : stay human. Which for me means, have equal respect for all human beings, and request equal respect from others. And above all, don’t allow the heart to be corrupted by hatred.
But my grandmother told me all of this and she did not even know what secularism meant. Can we really make words mean whatever we wish? Besides, it is a matter of historical record that various religions (xtianity, judaism, jainism and others) co-existed side by side with hinduism 2000 years ago – long before the notion of secularism came into existence. Now we are blessed with the lofty concept of secularism and yet we have religious strife. I question the basis on which we so readily attribute religious tolerance to concepts such as secularism. There is no historical basis for such a claim. It seems to me to be mostly smoke and mirrors. Or just another intellectual fad that needs deeper scrutiny.
It created a haven for terrorists. a haven that was used in both the recent foiled plot and 7/7.
By not questioning the “ideology of pakistan”, as Gujjubhai puts it, we have allowed “islamic aparthied” to become normative. perhaps this insularity partially explains why these nations have become breeding grounds for terrorists.
What explains why parts of India have become breeding grounds for violent and terrorising Hindu extremists?
Hmmmmm……
That’s like saying my fridge created a haven for mold. Mold that was used to ruin my leftover aloo ghobi.
Come on, surely you must know it’s more complicated. Why are you playing with straw men?
Ah, the Ashis Nandy line again. The answer is simple: ancient religious tolerance isn’t applicable to today because they didn’t have a concept of a nation-state or a democratic legal system with a codified constitution. Secularism in political theory is the transfer of “religious tolerance” to the modern political system. It’s a necessary concept to protect individual rights in postcolonial India (or any modern nation-state). It doesn’t really exist in Pakistan, and it’s imperfectly applied in India (I’ve said many times that I thnk there should be a UCC of some kind; and I have no patience for censorship to protect “religious sentiments” — see my recent Himal article).
The secularism that individuals practice (“stay human”) is the personal version of that modern political idea. Hopefully, the two are parallel. If they aren’t one aims to use democratic means to try and make them so.
Chico:
Good question. At the end of the day, this form of extremism is simply part of the human condition. Individuals like this exist in every society, it is not unique to the islamic world. The question is what conditions allow them to rise into power?
The KKK and the Nazi’s provide an interesting analogy. Like islamic faascists, they had some legitimate grievences, they had an exagerated sense of their own victimization, they could exploit a pre-existing jingoism/rascism/bigotry in their respective societies; and certain political/economic conditions (civil war for the kkk, the failing weimar republic for the nazis) allowed them to rise to various degrees of power.
the US and germany have had too look in the mirrror to ask how their socities could give rise to such insanity. It’s time for the islamic world to do the same.
so, everything goes back to 1947? fifty-nine years of births, deaths, migrations, loves, losses, coups, elections, books, records, paintings, cricket matches, etc., were mere incidentals with no bearing on pre-ordained fate? and fifty-nine years of world history and events outside the subcontinent were of no incidence on developments within its ironbound walls?
for people who so furiously rail against “commies,” you guys sure have a solid grasp on historical determinism.
The KKK had legitimate grievances? Wow, this is some history lesson I am getting. So what were those grievances? That blacks and descendants of slaves were free so they had to pick their own cotton? Wow.
I could go on in the same vein, but it’s too easy.
I agree that the Islamic world has to introspect. But I’m curious as to why you think that does not also apply to ‘the Hindu world’ in the small matter of the ongoing matter of the rampant extremism that persists in parts of India. After all, you could just as easily have used the maniacs and foaming-at-the-mouth fanatics of the saffronistas as a counter-example to the Islamists to illustrate your point about how “they had an exagerated sense of their own victimization, they could exploit a pre-existing jingoism/rascism/bigotry in their respective societies; and certain political/economic conditions….allowed them to rise to various degrees of power”
Because they pretty much fill the bill perfectly as a counterexample, and they breed in a secular and democratic ‘non-two nation theory’ country.
Problematic, isnt it? Maybe it is more complicated than huffing and puffing about what happened 60 years ago, although that may assuage our ideological prejudices and makes fearsome and satisfactory generalised Paki-bashing rhetoric.
Clean bowled, sucker punched, knocked out, on the canvas. Beautiful.
I was giving you a quick answer to your question about the relevence of the two nations theory. One of the major lines of argument being addressed by some on this thread is the enabling of islamic fascism by secularists; a line of argument that you appparently find to be irrelevent to the current debate.
but the fact that there is a huge pakistan connection for both recent british terrorism incidents makes the creation of pakistan in intersting place to start the conversation. Perhaps the “ideoolgy of pakistan” is at the heart of the matter. After all, political groups are not just merely amalagations of various grievences, but also have overarching ideologies that tie them together.
If gujjubhai is correct and it is “only the Hindu right has ever questioned the legitimacy of the Two Nation Theory” then this is indeed a sad state of affairs. We should be able to look at both specific grievences and the underlying social causes.
Siddhartha:
Your fighting straw men. No one is talking about “determinism” or saying other events after 1947 are irrelevent. If somone wanted to go back to the creation of Israel and question it’s legitimacy as a way of adressing the current crises, would you say they are being deterministic or ignoring subsequent events?
Manju
Remember what Siddhartha said?
for people who so furiously rail against “commies,” you guys sure have a solid grasp on historical determinism.
I just said it again.
Correct. British Indian Muslims, on the whole, tend to be markedly less fanatical (and often fairly liberal) compared to British Pakistani Muslims.
Other reasons ?
“Arabification” of the interpretation of Islam amongst British South Asians in recent years, especially amongst the younger generation. Even in terms of dress, there has been a pronounced increase in the wearing of burkhas amongst women and close-cropped hair/skullcaps & beards amongst men compared to how things were when I was at university (I’m 33) — at the time, in the vast majority of cases it was impossible to distinguish physically between Muslim, Hindu & Sikh guys & girls — and certainly a massive increase compared to the 70s and 80s (as plenty of the Indian parents’ generation here would confirm).
The rise in numbers of South Asians in general means that there is ample opportunity for segregation and insularity amongst those so inclined.
“Hijacking” of British Islamic religious leadership, in many cases, by clerics from the Middle-East.
Let’s be honest, and I will apologise in advance for my blunt language here : Many older generation desis, of all backgrounds (not just Muslims), are basically misfits with regards to Western society and Western cultural norms. There are plenty of non-white immigrants in the United Kingdom, and the most conservative and stubborn people in this aspect are South Asians. Some cultural tug-of-war does exist between the older & younger generations amongst (for example) West African and Chinese immigrant populations in the UK, but nowhere near in the scale as it does amongst desis. So you have desi uncles and aunties who cannot fully integrate into Western society in terms of adjustment of values and expectations from their UK-born children, and in many aspects they will not be practical and flexible in this regard either. Which is unfortunate although not unexpected; the problems arise when this influence, especially their expectations of their UK-born children’s values and behaviour, are similarly out of line with the norms of the country they reside in — and if their influence and, frankly, demands are strong enough, this results in their kids becoming misfits too. Not necessarily within their insular social circles, but within the country (indeed, the Western hemisphere) as a whole; so their sons and daughters grow up feeling alienated from the wider society, their misfit parents will to some extent refuse to let their children become sufficiently “Westernised”, resulting in the latter becoming misfits too.
Add the colonial grudge and the constant drip-drip anti-Western and anti-white propaganda from the older generation, including the moral disgust for the supposed lack of “morals” and values within the mainstream society of the country, and you have an explosive combination. Potentially literally.
It doesn’t fit the bill. Hindu extemists have not achieved the level of power that muslim extemists have in pakistan, iran, afghanistan, saudi arabia, etc. These guys rule entire nations. As I said, such individuals exist in every society and will always be among us; bigotry is part of the human condition. The question is what conditions allow them to become powerful.
Having said that, I’m concened about hindu extremism too and I don’t want to let them off the hook or see them gain more power. And if thsy are the only ones who address a legit issue (pakistan’s ideology), this may enable them to rise to power. After all, the great philosopher Martin Heidegger once supported the nazis because he saw no other party addressing the most important issues facing germany.
I really think we are on the same page on this issue, which is the entire point…why the silence by some?
Well, so what’s wrong with that? Your fridge is notorious for harboring mold. Such mold has been used to assault alooghobi worldwide. If your fridge – which just so HAPPENS to be a Sikh one – is harboring mold, I say it is Sikhofascism rearing its ugly head, yet again! And who suffers? Aloo. It’s about time aloo stands up for aloo, if you ask me. Aloo has taken far too much of this Sikhofascistic moldism.
You’re imagining things. There is no silence.
What were the KKK’s legitimate grievances by the way? Your historical examples and perspectives are…..unique.
Can you not bring Sikhs into this, also, it wasn’t all that funny
IÂ’m not sure how this answers the question. In any case, the world does not seem to be operating on a nation-state basis. The US is fighting for democracy all over the world not just within its borders. We’re probably moving out of the nation state phase towards a more culture-oriented one.
Quite apposite that a nonsense concept like secularism will need to be propped up by another nonsense concept such as “religious tolerance”. If Religions decide to get tolerant, they will cease to exist. The word “tolerance” in fact is a carefully chosen one since religions can do no better than to “tolerate”. They certainly cannot “respect” what they generally refer to as devil worshippers for instance.
Religions have never been tolerant and by definition cannot be. What secularism managed to do was to transfer the notion of “civic” tolerance to the political system. You can of course urge the practitioners of various religions to behave themselves. It is this state of affairs that passes for secularism, although people insist on referring to it as “religious” tolerance rather than “civic” tolerance.
If secularism could actually make a dent in religious tolerance it would indeed be a worthy concept and a “necessary” one as you say. But all the while we are paying lip service to secularism, the armies of God are on the march, funded by a secular flock most of the time. This is much more true of the US than of India in fact. The Will of God has never entered Indian politics. It plays a very important role in US politics. It amazes me that the US continues to be considered a secular nation. But what bothers me most is that concepts such as secularism actually manage to create a false illusion that all’s well on the religious front, when actually it is not and never has been.
Chic/Sid
Marx argued that events like the emergence of capitalism was a historical necessity, in no ones control, and the result of class conflict.
I would argue the opposite, like max weber, that the emergence of capitalism was not a necessity, rather a result of certain values (the protestant work ethic, the enlightenment ideology) winning over mankind. values “determine” history. determine in quotes b/c we are talkin about free will.
this explains why I’m putting such a premium on islamic-fascist ideology as the fountainhead of terrror. My anti-communism remains intact.
i most certainly would.
the current klan is oppossed to affimative action and illegal immigration, both legit mainstream opinions. They also represent peoiple (white workin class) who would be the victims of these policies. At varous times they were anti-communist and isolationist.the klan, like hezbollah and hamas, provided a social network and charity towards those w/ legitimate economic grievances, and like hez and hamas, they transformed these grivences into a hatred of a minority.
or take the terrorist Tim Mcveigh to illustrate the same point. He was specifically outraged over Ruby Ridge and Waco. Now, it’s relatively mainstream to believe the US govt may have behaved terribly in these instances and one would naturally think if we end such abuse, the subsequent terrorism would also end.
But when one looks at mcveighs relatonship to white supremacists, his love for the turner diaries, and his involvement in the survivalist movement, you see there is something deeper going on here. Call it simple bigotry or hatred, intolerance, maybe a totalitarian or fascist mindset, or whatever, but I would bet w/ an individual like this, if Waco didn’t happen, something else would set him off.
This is all I am saying about the islamic extremists too.
You are consistent and interesting Siddhartha. But I think you’re wrong to label all those who look at historical factors as practicing some form of dialectical materialism.
Chico –
For god’s sake man/woman, get real. When was the last time global security was threatened by Hindu fanatics? When were dozens of Kashmiri Hindus arrested for plotting to bomb a dozen or so Saudi and Paksitani aircraft? When was the last time Hindu nut cases attacked the Karachi stock exchange or the Pakistani [sic] Parliament? This habit of dropping the Hindu extremism card whenever Islamic Fascism is discussed, is quite frankly, becoming an exercise in futility.
p.s. does the world really give a f%^&* about Hindu extremism ? and, no, that doesn’t justfy the Hindutva brigade.
Kind of like those who were obsessing over “black racism” during the civil rights movement.
Surely you are being too kind, good sir. A few questions to ponder over…
1.Is the government really remiss or just acting according to the devil’s bargain it may have struck with the Western governments, as outlined by bongdong in an earlier post? Is there any evidence at all that they sincerely want to curb terrorism as opposed to using it as a strategic weapon?
2.Contrary to your charaterization, the ideology of Pakistan has everything to do with global terrorism. After all, that has been the prevalent mythos of that country and has consistently manufactured the narrative of Hindupobia, Anti-semitism, Islamic martial superiority, a conscious Arabization of its history nad culture, invention of the Muslim-outsider conqueror myth, severance of its ties with Indic civilizational heritage and so on. Don’t you think that the systematic brainwashing of the population for last 60 years, starting with dating the beginning of Pak history at the first Arab invation of Sind in 713 AD has anything to do with this whole mess that we find ourselves in? 3.The ideology of Pakistan is the original expression of Islamist supremacism that has ultimately de-humanised “theother” so much in the minds of Pakistanis that they are the easiest to recruit as foot soldiers of JIhad. Isn’t it too much of a coincidence that almost every terrorist attack or plot has active Pakistani connections? How far back do you want me to go : Ramzi Yusef and the First WTC bombing to Mumbai train bombings and UK plot? BTW, this just in : Italians swooped down upon a bunch of Pakistanis and arrested them in another terrorist plot
I see zero introspection on part of Pakistanis in North America or in Pakistan to face these real questions. Instead, all we see is knee-jerk blaming of India, Hindus, US, Israel… everyone under the Sun. The irony is that they have been the biggest beneficiaries of US largesse and India’s spinelessness in dealing with Pakistan, and there’s aboslutely nothing that they can point to as an evidence of damage done directly to them by US, Israel or India. It’s about time that someone stepped up and told them : dude, it’s not Us..it is, indeed, You.
Gujjubhai
Great post. The last point I think is the most worrisome. The exagerated sense of victimization and a feeling of humiliation and resentment; the world has seen this so many times in so many forms.
Gujjubhai…kudos!!
I didn’t “bring Sikhs into this” in any way, it was supposed to be ridiculous.
And it made melaugh, so that’s really all that matters. Ha!
Gujjubhai, I do not disagree with the main thrust of your argument, but a couple of quibbles.
1)
Are those who benefit the most from US largesse the same as those who harbor the most resentment and are susceptible to join terrorist groups? Surely, different classes and ethnicities in Pakistan make things more complex than that.
2) You denounced strengthening of Arabization and Islamist forces in Pakistan, but at the same time mentioned the lack of damages done to Pakistan as a reason for them not to be resentful toward US, India and Israel. Aren’t you having it both ways? If they have indeed been brainwashed by Arabization and Islamist forces, they do not need damages done specifically to Pakistan. Real or perceived damages done by US and Israel in middle east or by India in Kashmir will qualify as legitimate, no?
This piece from the Cynical Nerd’s blog is not be missed: I ROTFLMAO after reading it…
Someone please page SpoorKhan for a similar take :-).
Cynical News NetworkÂ’s (CNN) exclusive reporting on BritainÂ’s Home-grown Islamist Insurgency following the recent plot to blow up airliners: CNN, Londonistan – August 10, 2006. UKÂ’s white Protestant-dominated government led by the Christian nationalist Anthony Bliar often in the past blamed its Muslim minority for such acts of violence. But critics respond that the UK with its past record of human rights violation world-over during the colonial times and more recently in Northern Ireland, Falklands War, Afghanistan and Iraq hardly gives it any credibility. They say that such horrors spanning hundreds of years cannot be white-washed behind the facade of a so-called ‘liberal democraticÂ’ form of government. Further, the General Secretary of the Muslim Council of Britain (MCB), Dr. Mohammed Abdul Bari said that the latest plot could be the handiwork of nationalist groups such as the British National Party (BNP). He said since 9/11, the entire country has gone on a fervor of violent Christian nationalism reminding him of the medieval Crusades and has called for an immediate ban of the BNP.Analysts note that in the 90s, 1,00,000 victims mostly Muslims were injured and unjustly apprehended in the riots in Bradford and elsewhere due to the clashes with pro-White groups. This has caused a great alienation among law abiding Muslim citizens. But so far the UK government is yet to respond to MCBÂ’s offer of dialogue and reconciliation to reduce the social discord between the Christian majority and the Muslim minority who are at the bottom of BritainÂ’s social ladder. According to Ms. Shami Chakrabarty chief of the UK civil rights group Liberty, a solution to this problem is to let British Muslims live in peace under their own set of laws based on the Holy ShariÂ’a in a designated area named ‘Islamic Emirates of Azad BritainistanÂ’ supported by the ‘moderateÂ’ pro-independence groups such as the Hizb-ul-Tahrir. This again is confirmed by the latest opinion polls among British Muslims. But the hard line government is insistent on applying secular laws based on the controversial Magna Carta which has been termed as anti-Islamic by human rights groups.
In other news, the government of Pakistan has categorically rejected any allegation of its territory being used for terrorist training in the latest London plot. The spokesperson of Pakistan’s foreign ministry Ms. Tasnim Aslam said that “Look, this is an internal problem of Britain. The British government should stop its aggression and human rights violation against Muslims in its own country and elsewhere (ed. Iraq, Afghanistan), instead of pointing fingers at us”. Mr. Hamid Gul former director of Pakistan’s Inter Service Intelligence out rightly refused the role of any Islamist groups such as Al-Queda in this plot, “I have seen the airline passenger data and I can’t see the name of a single Jew in them. I smell fish here and I think they have been forewarned about this incident. The international community should investigate the matter to find any links with Israel’s Mossad.” Dr. Shireen Mazari of the Pakistan Institute of Strategic Studies ( P.I.S.S. ) warned Britain against any “misadventures” and “reminded” Britain that Pakistan as a “sole nuclear weapons state among the Ummah countries” will give them “a fitting reply”. It is to be noted that Pakistan is a key ally in the war against terrorism and the suit-wearing, whisky sipping, moderately enlightened General Musharraf is the only hope in this fight against Islamist terrorism.
Meanwhile in Washington, U.S. Assistant Secretary of State Richard Boucher suggested that the continuation of confidence building measures between Britain and the separatist groups towards a just solution will go a long way in the prevention of such atrocities better. He further praised General MusharrafÂ’s co-operation in the Global Offense Against Terror ( G.O.A.T.) and recommended to the Department of Defense the sale of nuclear-powered aircraft carriers and long range bombers to Pakistan to better fight against Al-Queda and Taliban extremists who radicalize these British Muslim youths. He refused to answer the question as to how such weapons will be useful since most of the arrests were made not in the mountainous terrain on the Afghan border but in large urban centers of Pakistan such as Karachi.
At CNN, we maintain high standards of editorial objectivity giving unbiased coverage to both sides of the story. However, we deplore the use of violence by the concerned parties and urge them to resolve all outstanding issues including the legitimate demand of a separate homeland for the British IsleÂ’s Islamist separatists through a just and inclusive peace process. We also demand Her MajestyÂ’s Government to take every measure to assuage the fears of itÂ’s marginalized Muslim minority.