As in all things, advertisements depict a rosier world than the one we actually live in. The Kama Sutra references in Manish’s post below make it seem like India is becoming more sexually liberal, but a recent story from the BBC points out that India is still quite repressed. In this case, a couple was threatened with jail for public indecency. 
What did they do? They kissed … at their wedding:
An Israeli couple being married in India have found that you may not kiss the bride – the pair were fined $22 for indecency for their wedding embrace. A court in Rajasthan imposed the fine after Alon Orpaz and Tehila Salev had decided to get married in a traditional Hindu ceremony in Pushkar. Priests were offended when the couple kissed and hugged during the chanting of religious verses. The apologetic couple said they were unaware public kissing was banned.
The couple, who had met in India while travelling separately, paid the 1,000-rupee fine for “committing an act of indecency” to avoid a 10-day jail sentence. [Link]
[UPDATE: Reader Dhaavak points us to a recent AFP file photo of a young couple making out in a Delhi park. Check out their body language: he has his hands on his hips, and she’s fixing her dupatta.]
Nor is this the only case of legal action for absurdly minor PDA. Three years ago, Pune university enacted a ban on kissing, hand-holding or even cuddling on campus:
Action will be taken against couples found holding hands!
An Indian university has declared its campus a strict “no love” zone, declaring a ban on kissing and hand-holding on its grounds. The vice chancellor of western India’s Pune university, Ashok Kolaskar, says courting couples could damage the reputation and social values of the 100-year-old institution.
“Action will be taken against couples found holding hands, kissing or indulging in any form of public display of affection,” warns a notice signed by [sic] the Mr Kolaskar. [Link]
Apparently, the campus had become a magnet for canoodling couples:
The sprawling 411-acre grounds with their lawns, trees and shady spots even attract young lovers from outside who masquerade as students to get into the campus.
“Unlike the city parks the university campus is even free from voyeurs. It is safer and more comfortable a place for us,” said one student, speaking on condition of anonymity.“During class-breaks on a stroll in the campus very often we stumble on entwined bodies in carnal positions,” said student Angela Pires. “What do these people think – do they want to turn the university into a love hotel?” she said. [Link]
However, one of the campus cops had questions about the enforceability of these regulations:
“We can stop the outside couples from entering the university …but it is difficult to take action against our own students; they can immobilise the university by staging a massive demonstration … After all, the courting students and their supporter friends far outnumber the students who oppose the intimacy of lovers in the campus…” [Link]
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p>Student hormones coupled with the tradition of collective action. Sounds like the sixties might yet reach India 
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p>p.s. does anybody know how these regulations have fared over the last 3 years?
p.p.s. Do you know how few photographs come up if you google phrases like “India kiss” “India kisses” “India kissing” ?
i got the search query “round and brown” coming into my weblog today. just thought i’d offer that since we’re on the topic of sepia sex….
I have my excited face on. Ennis do you have this on reasonable authority? One of my great laments in life (I only have 3) is that I was born too late to enjoy the best of decades gone by. I think I would’ve enjoyed 1967. Now, if the sixties are going to hit India…I think I may have found my calling.
I feel rather faint.
I guess NYC features on both end of the spectrum as in extremes – ppl talk to strangers, and yet on the other hand they scream and curse like nobodys bizness. Maybe its not so much about friendliness as it is about politeness. One thing for sure, most ppl visitng the place would concur on the politeness factor.
Razib – I am disappointed; no stats? I am sure you could have dug something up on parallel indicator such a road rage etc 🙂
Oh I’ve got weapons of mass destruction alright. Cicatrix and I have a female wrestling duo, called the WMDs. She does helicopter kicks and I snap and twitch my hips bollywood style; we inflict all sorts of damage and stun our opponents.
Bongsy, I totally get the brown Austin Powers vibe off you… if the 60s arrive in India, you’ll be money, yaar.
Cica and I have dvds, too
Brown Austin Powers eh? I’ve always seen myself as more of a Doctor Evil (geddit?) but I can live with the Austin tag, baby. Who knows…my teeth may well have turned out like Her Majesty’s Top Secret Agent’s had I not got my teeth de-Britishified. Thank God for Red Cross free orthodontistry!
I’m feeling sad now, I REALLY would’ve liked to have lived in the 60s and early 70s. DISCO! I would’ve been a legend in my own time. #Disco deawana…#
Now before I order the cicatrix/DesiDancer non-stop mud-wrestling dhamaka, can I just confirm the identity of this Mr Cicatrix? Is he really Mr Cicatrix and more importantly is he going to beat me up if I buy the DVD?
*that’s supposed to be deewana. Actually you know what? I don’t know how to spell it.
A+, not T-to-T&A.
Actually, I find NYC (where I’m from) far friendlier than small city / suburban middle America (where I live now). In NYC, strangers will talk to you. Out here, not so. I can go weeks without talking to somebody who I haven’t already been introduced to (with the exception of waitresses and checkout clerks). It’s very insular. When I’m in NYC, I can’t say that I go a day without talking to somebody random that I’ve never met before.
I too agree here. When in NY, I feel like I actually belong, unlike here in the smaller suburbs….course Philly, which is about 60 miles south of here…that’s a whole ‘nother story.
Staring is considered offensive in India as well. If you’re getting a scolding, you’re not supposed to look the other person in the eye (that’s insolence), you’re supposed to look away. The US is far more glance friendly in terms of normal interactions. What varies is the interpretation of staring amongst strangers.
Whew. I always hated eye contact, even though I too got the ol ‘you’re hiding something’ rag. Glad to know that it’s actually acceptable NOT to in India. Gives more points to my side. 😉
I for one find it very funny when in a New York crowded subway, people are so ” squeamish” about being close to each other, that they will do anything to avoid eye contact.
That’s because they wait for the bus terminals. 😉
It’s just affection, and I rather hate the way touching is seen as a sexual thing in the West.
I don’t mind the kind of affection between friends, but the kind of affection between lovers in public has just gotten kinda sickening. I was brought up finding the public displays of near orgies to be unruly offensive and more so rather immoral. That was for home, and not when you have company either. It also give the impression that they must prove something. I was recently up to NY to visit family, and upon reaching the terminal to get back to PA, there were a young pair in the same terminal lane who had to practically make it their bedroom, and were making many people not very happy. Especilaly because along with slobbering not only on each other, managed to get a good bit on anyone near them, and to make things worse, when they were in mid embrace, managed to rump – bump at least 5 or 6 people nearby. They acted like little kids who found out about peanut butter and jelly for the first time, but on a far less innocent level.
I’m feeling sad now, I REALLY would’ve liked to have lived in the 60s and early 70s. DISCO! I would’ve been a legend in my own time. #Disco deawana…#
That’s just golden. I wish I could have lived during those days too. My aunt tells me how great it was all the time.
I have a list where people wishing to participate in an exhaustive survey may want to sign up. Ofcourse, since this is about brown people, you need to be brown to qualify. Or tanned at the very least. Or have a cool jazz and blues inspired take on an ancient Indian epic if you can’t get a fake bake.
gloating at my inclusiveness
i have the photos of the said Pune University thingy. but i don’t believe them… anyone else wanna confirm it?
The eye-contact-threatening-thing is the same here in London as it is in New York, especially on public transport. If you stare at another male stranger here he’ll either think your gay or are attempting to pick a fight with him.
Same-sex contact is not like it is on mainland Europe and, again, is probably much more like the US.
With regards to the open (some would say excessive) male-male groping back in India: I wonder if, in many cases, this is a manifestation of sexual frustration, ie. they can’t express physical affection/attraction towards women in public so they touch their male buddies too much instead. Just a theory, don’t all scream at me at once 😉 In fact, extrapolating this further, is it unmarried men over there who hold hands with their male friends so much, or do the married guys do it too ?
It’s an interesting reversal of human behaviour in India, though; male-female open physical affection is seen as immoral/unnatural, yet it’s deemed perfectly “normal” and acceptable for guys to hold hands and be all over each other. Curious.
I am from a city called Madurai, not from any of those big Metro cities in India. My parents are not educated that much. they are Just 4th or 5th grade dropout’s. From my school days (this in 80’s), when I talk with a girl, I am made fun, laughed at ridiculed by my male friends. So inorder to be accepted by my male friends that I am a very normal person I avoid the other girls in the class. As time goes by this problem becomes complex totally to the extent, I completely avoid any interaction with girls. One reason could be shyness and other reason could be how the society looks at him. These are major factors that influence the same sex gropping….Nothing to do with Gayness or anyting. First of all we are not even that much aware of what is being Gay in India. To be honest, I never even heard anything about Same sex ” Gay” concept in India. May be I was not aware of this thing at the time. The “fire” movie brought the idea of lesbianismm in India. It was very difficult to accept these kind of things at first. To be honest it was shocking.
As everybody here knows many people in India have thier first sexual experience after getting married, a concept of “Gay” is still considered something out of space.
I just want to give you folks an idea of what goes on in a Indian’s mind in India through me.
By the way I am just a very normal person like any one and I do have lot of male friends, whom we hang with. We touch a lot, grope a lot, but this has nothing to do with anyhting called “GAY”. I just want to make my point very clear.
Please dont look at us, the same way you look at your fellow Americans or Fellow Brits.
I’m thinking natural human behavior can include a lot of physical affection that just isn’t sexual. Touch is sexualized in the US, but intellectually I know it doesn’t have to be.
I’ve also seen guys all over each other in Malaysia, so it’s not unique to India. I don’t think Malaysia has the same degree of prohibition against opposite-sex public affection though, but I’m not sure.
I eagerly await for Razib’s input on the socio-cultural evolution of touch taboos.
(And, um, thanks, DesiDudeInAustin, for finding a way to include my pale ass in your research project fantasy.)
dont sweat the details. just casual banter out here, indian in india. contrary to the general thread, it is fairly common for women who are good friends to walk around arm in arm – think sisters not lovers. it is also fairly common for secure men to express their approval with back slapping. proximity is taboo for those with nothing better in mind. early mornings, it isnt uncommon for trucks to be lugging a bunch of heavy set men in a tightfitting cab to a construction site – i suppose a guy can be sensitive about it and hang out at the back in sub-zero temperature, but sensibly most people opt out of that – just a matter of circumstance and how much thought one puts into it – to each his own – just to point you to another flavor of the original post. different threshold, same sense and sensibilities.
Some of the “off-beat” movie makers in India are out-of-touch with reality of India and live in a fantasy bubble assuming they live in the west.
As a result they “think” that the western social issues would apply in India (like lesbianism).
In their west-aping bubble they dont see the obvious social issues of India, which are different from the social issues of the west.
Absolutely correct. The problem is that male-female touch amongst people who are not close relatives IS sexualised in India; it’s interpreted as being solely about sex, not affection. I’ve been at funerals where people even have vociferously complained about something minor like a women discreetly holding her husband’s hand to comfort him as his deceased father is shortly to be cremated.
eg. “How could she hold his hand like that in public, and at his father’s funeral ?! My husband/wife and I never touch each other in public, we never even sit too closely next to each other on the sofa in front of other people. Don’t they have any respect for their elders ? How could she do that in front of all those people, including her mother-in-law ?!”
Me: “Er…she was just doing it as a gesture of support for her husband at an obviously traumatic time for him. It’s not a big deal…”
Response: “But they were touching each other in front of everyone else…”
You get the idea. This is probably an extreme example, but many of the more conservative people back in India do have problems with the idea that not everything between men and women has to be purely about sex (even if the relationship isn’t necessarily strictly platonic). Ironically, as discussed previously, excessive physical contact and displays of physical affection between men isn’t regarded as being sexual at all, even if such behaviour may be viewed as actually being wildly inappropriate and overstepping-the-mark out here in the West (or at least in the UK and the US).
The previous posted mentioned how he had unfortunately been ridiculed by other people when attempting positive interactions with girls in his younger days. Now this happens to everyone when they’re kids, even here in the West, but if it continues over a long period of time (including when they become adults), you can imagine the psychological/dysfunctional impact this would have on the mindsets, attitudes and behaviours of such people when they’re older.
(Please note, I am speaking generally — I’m not saying there’s anything wrong with “Indian in India” in post #64; he seems like a nice guy).
So, my husband and I were talking about this post last night, and I has the passing thought that I think kissing might be a ‘western’ sign of intimacy, in the sense that I don’t think it’s a natural gesture of intimacy outside of societies exposed to ‘western’ influences. Does anyone have any thoughts and/or real information on the biological and anthropological history of the kiss? Prove me wrong, people :).
RC – at the risk of starting off a totally different thread on sexual identity – i understand your comment as being that homosexuality is a social construct, a matter of choice. i disagree.
I’ll focus on popular literature to have a framework accessible to all – rather than personal anecdotes. there are gay south asians out there – some more out than others. Shyam Selvadurai is one – by the way he writes these amazingly vivid snapshots of Toronto in the Globe and Mail every saturday – recommended reading for the TO-philes. Vikram Seth’s novel also has a heavy bit of male on male action going on in the boarding schools of d’dun etc – no doubt based on what he’s heard. Movies based on their stories would have a touch more realism than the crap you see out there. I agree with you if you were generally pissing on hindi movies and lamenting how they transmogrify south asian concepts into something unreal, weird – but then this is the same industry that produced this
Homosexuality is a Western issue? WOW. I think in movies like “Fire” the lesbian theme was a convenient lens which enabled the director to focus on characters whose fate seemed immobilized by tradition (symbolized by mute granny furiously ringing her bell). If you recall, the male characters carried parallel burdens. Assuming of course you saw that “off-beat” movie
damn
dhaavak, Vikram Seth does NOT by any extension represent regular India. I am talking about 99% India. That India who arent even aware of existance of fancy British style boarding schools of Dehradun. If I am not mistaken Vikram Seth is a westerner. (I am not sure about this) All of these ENGLISH novel writers in India also represent citizens of the bubble.
One cant really express completely the situation of India in ENGLISH language. Let me give u an example. People write “I have my fingers crossed” in English, because its a cultural thing. Growing up I never saw anyone crossing their fingers in anticipation. (but they wrote “crossing fingers” while writing)
The debate on Homosexuality is totally different topic, which will generate 100s of comments I am sure.
One thing that is totally MISSING in the overly sexualized western culture, is the idea that a person might be a-sexual.(That idea is not entertained at all, IMO. I dont claim to be expert on any of these, after all I grew up playing gulli-danda with my Sindhi friends :-)) )
another fine writer, who’s out – Shani Mootoo – trini-indian-brit-canadian.
I’d also nominate Wayson Choy… whose writing is just so loving, and reflects such a strong sense of family – he has to be kin – I hereby appoint him the Order of Sepia.
now… make movies on their stories, and it wont be “out of touch” any more.
ya I know some of you are thinking of manji but I personally find her insufferable, so there – it’s my list.
Sri lankan nominee to the Order of Sepia:
Shyam Selvadurai. The link is to a 2003 article in which he talks about moving back to SL with his boyfriend:
RC – I know where you’re coming from – and actually i agree – the ‘english’ writers are not in touch with the mass population – the lack of gay ‘local’ writing does not indicate an absence of homosexuality in indian society – to me this is failure of the society to on the one hand promote literature for the masses, and on the other to encourage gay people to write their stories. among popular media – one case i remember was of an eunuch/openly gay person who ran for parliament, and whose story is being turned into a movie. then… in december 2004, i believe there was a story of two women getting married in punjab – … it’s there … anyway – i’ll leave it to someone from india who has a better view of things from the ground to carry this further…
One cant really express completely the situation of India in ENGLISH language. Let me give u an example. People write “I have my fingers crossed” in English, because its a cultural thing. Growing up I never saw anyone crossing their fingers in anticipation. (but they wrote “crossing fingers” while writing)
Well Said RC.
I read somewhere “He kicked the bucket”. I am like somebody kicked somebody else bucket when I first read. But that wasnt making any sense to me. So I have to refer my faithful Oxford Dictionary meaning. Then I knew what it means. In English, each phrase has its own origin, which is more cultural to the native English.
Even the English, most of the Indians we speak here would be exact word to word translation from our native language, which wouldnt make sense to a westener.
Dhavaak u r right. There was a movie called “Shabnum Mausi” acted by Ashutosh Rana.
I have read in many Indian weekly magazines about the same sex marriages that take place in either ruaral punjab or UP or Bihar. These things do happen……
Well, then I’m not surprised with all the repressed affection, that people will outlet it on their own gender… even if it has nothing to do with sex. The point is, all people need to express and receive affection…. unless you’re a sociopath.
About homosexuality on the subcontinent: we all have at least one naive relative who denies that it exists or ever existed! Here’s an article about same sex love in India.
Rani
Jayadeva’s Gita Govinda , written in madhur rasa, (12th century AD)completely disproves that kissing didnt exist as an expression in the Indian setting.
All of Rasa Leela in the vaishnava tradition is replete with sexual depiction of Krishna’s love for gopis and for Radha. The regions which have carried this form of Vaishnava tradition of radha are probably more comfortable with sexual expressions than others.
Of course, changes have occurred but some parts of the country and some traditions(like the shakta or tantric traditions) more than others are more comfortable with sexual expression.(That is a whole other discussion)
I do believe that sexuality has been seen as merely one part of many other facets of man-women relationships in Indian culture. This creates stress in contemporary Indians as many dont know how to reconcile the disparate parts. The west (for the most part, of course there are exceptions) does not see woman as anything other than a sexual being, and hence all relationships are colored by this view. This has had its strengths in freeing women but it has its limitations too. (as is evident in many contemporary writing about the overemphasis on sexual idenity in little girls to the detriment of their healthy emotional growth.)
Viewing any relationship betwen same sex people suspiciously is also part of this overemphasis on sexual issues. Freud was probably more relevant than is believed in this regard. There is a lot of literature on sexuality that talks about all this stuff. George Feuerstein’s work is relevant in this aspect.
Sumita
Angie
You are so right about that. there are many sham marriages, which cover this us. Only close family members know all is not “kosher” in the image presented to society. Sometimes children are adopted to give a picture of complete acceptance.
The woman usually remains silent and the ones who rebel, are not really given the support they ned to extricate themselves from such “arrangements”
Sumita
thank you for backing me there Indian in India (InX3)
Probably followed by “I did’nt even dare look at my husband’s face until after our third son was born.”
You know, this whole “keeping a distance in public” thing probably explains all those old black & white wedding photos from the 1st-Generation, where they’re both standing about 5 feet apart from each other…….
I dont know if any thing Freud wrote has been challenged at all. I think in the west Freud’s word is treated like Gospel.
Sex is important ,its a biological process.Indians are dismissive of the fact that it is shown in public,but you see the western influence is rising . My feeling is as an indian i want it be open and i think the religious places should be kept coz of the respect and attitude we have and also the culture doesn’t allow.The noise you are hearing is from the upper classes,ask the real people ,who have known the indian tradition,that its not modest to be open in public sexually. Now but you say some will say its my freedom,things like youth will say its my life all that self.I think more than moral policing,what we as indians should do is to have passion towards are culture,being not open towards seeing sex in movies and etc. etc. is not backward.We should have open thoughts,one who wants to see and so ,do it ,one who doesn’t he doesn’t,the deal ends. More of the laws and all,it should be taught in family and when he grows up,if he feels like not following his parents,its his wish. Thats the bottom line it should all be about personal affliation,rather than being liberal and backward. Jai bharat
when i was 13 my family went to india. we were in the village at someone’s house when my dad (who is such a comedian) put his arms around my mom and started laughing because he knew exactly what he was doing and thought it was funny. now i should mention that my parents are an anomaly and don’t really fit the typical “indian parents” mould. they are very affectionate with each other at home-even when they are out walking in the mall they hold hands.
back to the village, we now have a picture of my mom putting her hands inbetween her and my dad and trying to get away from him. it was all funny to me at the time, when i couldn’t really understand how conversative indians can be sometimes, but i think it really shows how these ideas can be changed but can also resurface depending on the situation.
Only by literature and theater people, not psychologists by and large.
i am a student studying in london,uk. and i am extreamly shocked , when i saw some seens, like a couple (under age), kissing in a public place. even a country like europe hasnt banned these seens and am really thrilled to know what was the ultimate aim of indian government , or the person who made the law, not to have a kiss or even cant hold the hand of the partner in a public place. i guess indian government is really concerned about the life and life style of coming generation, that may be a reason for the same law. And comparing to the culture i have seen in uk, is really pathetic as in india. so strongly agree with the comments made by sumita, and rani..