The Raj Trial and Wall Street’s South Asian Elite:
This new South Asian Wall Street elite includes the CEO of Citigroup, Indian-born Vikram Pandit; Ajit Jain, also from India, a money manager emerging as the likely successor to investment guru Warren Buffett; and a half-dozen hedge-fund managers who use strategies based on mathematical algorithms to routinely rake in $50 million or more per year in income. Chief among the latter group is the Sri Lankan-born Rajaratnam, who ran a $7 billion hedge fund, Galleon Group, and largely to the disgust of this justifiably proud community, has emerged as the face of this new ethnic order.
In much the same way that the upwardly mobile Jewish community of the 1930s viewed Jewish gangsters as a “shanda fur die goyim” (shame before the gentiles), the “Raj trial” has put the South Asian financial clique on full display, for all its success–and insularity.
I actually had some media inquiries in relation to the Galleon trial in terms of how I thought it impacted the South Asian American community. Since I’m primarily a science blogger who isn’t even part of the South Asian American community, even the Bangaldeshi community, I just passed the inquiries on.
Those “in the know” can comment further, but my impression is that an analogy between a South Asian clique on Wall Street and a Jewish clique is weakened by the fact that brown folk are much more diverse. There’s a commonality in the U.S.A. due to how we’re perceived by others, but it isn’t as if a Sri Lankan quant is going to arrange a marriage with Neel Kashkari’s future children. More pointedly I think many of us perceive brown bankers and hedge fund guys and gals as bankers and hedge fund guys and gals first and foremost. Or at least that’s how the rest of America should view them.
In fact the journalist who contacted me admitted that they were having a hard time fleshing out the South Asian angle, since so few people in “the community” seemed interested or concerned about the Galleon trial. It was a different matter apparently when it came to management consultants and people on Wall Street, who thought their image was being tarnished further (yes, it is being tarnished further, but you’ll keep your bonuses, so I hope that’s just compensation for your reduced esteem!).
I remember being struck by the description of the article, referring to “the Indians, Pakistanis, Bengalis, and Sri Lankans flooding the American financial sector.” Flooding sounds a bit strong/vaguely alarmist if the elite is those people he mentioned plus a half dozen hedge fund managers. Though maybe he meant the financial industry as a whole, in which case I have no idea.
I haven’t spent a lot of time in the States, but with that caveat, I’d be cautious about being confident that the Kashmiri-Sri Lanka thing wouldn’t work out. Depends on what circles they travel in. If they are devout Hindus, they are likely to appreciate that between families, and not worry so much about region/language. At least that is true in the UK (language not so much an issue b/c we speak the Queen’s English. Again, probably varies by circles you travel in.) My parents have had “proposals” for my sister from quite a wide range of regional backgrounds–most came to know my parents through Hindu groups.
Just my 2 pence!
We need to do a segment on Kashkari post-2008, post self-built log-cabin “I’m getting the fuck away from these crazies” phase.
The Galleon trial is as interesting as Martha Steward’s trial was, i.e. not at all interesting. Human nature 101 : pack animals will tell others where the food-source is. If there’s a discount sale at TJMaxx, your mom WILL call and tell her friends. We network.
Razib, glad you touched on this.
” I think many of us perceive brown bankers and hedge fund guys and gals as bankers and hedge fund guys and gals first and foremost.”
And desis second? Was that your point. If so then yes.
Whereas Jews are Jews first and their occupation second. A critical difference.
Whereas Jews are Jews first and their occupation second. A critical difference.
are you kidding?
No
in line with
“In fact the journalist who contacted me admitted that they were having a hard time fleshing out the South Asian angle, since so few people in “the community†seemed interested or concerned about the Galleon trial.”
Every Jewish person I know is personally offended by Madoff. there doesn’t seem to be a particular s asian sentiment against Rajaratnam
Every Jewish person I know is personally offended by Madoff. there doesn’t seem to be a particular s asian sentiment against Rajaratnam
madoff fits into the stereotype of a particular type of jewish huckster which is an antisemitic trope. and he was big. then there’s the angle that madoff was a classic “affinity con artist,” a lot of his money and the people he screwed were other jews who trusted him because of his associations within the jewish community. if rajaratnam had cultivated associations to a prominent hindu temple, raised money disproportionately from indian americans on fraudulent pretenses, etc., indian americans would be more well aware of him.
Well none of the Jews I know mentioned being personally offended by Madoff (granted, I hang out with the < 25 crowd so that could explain it). But Rajaratnam didn’t have as big of an impact on American culture as Madoff did; everyone has heard of Madoff, but most Americans (Indian included) don’t know of Rajaratnam. But personally I don’t think Indians should feel personally offended by it (or that Jews should feel compelled to feel personally responsible for Madoff).
Another example: after 9/11 I remember that most Muslims where I lived didn’t seem to feel personally either; there was hatred toward bin Laden, but nothing like the feelings of Jews toward Madoff that you’re describing. I have also heard and read some Americans commenting about how no one in the Muslim community really spoke out against it or took “personal responsibility”. Well I think that has a religious explanation: in Islam, people are responsible for individual sins (that is why their is no Original Sin in Islam, versus Christianity which proclaims that Jesus died for human sins etc). I think that mentality of taking individual responsibility for one’s own actions and not that of the group seems prevalent in many modern Muslims.
I know most S.Asians in America are non-Muslim Indians, but the culture is similar, and I don’t expect the Indian community to be personally outraged about the brown Wall St clique anytime soon tbh.
Sorry that first sentence should read “granted I hang out with the under 25 crowd”.
I agree with ithunk that the Galleon trial doesn’t seem particularly interesting…most Americans (Indians included) won’t care and it won’t receive the media coverage that Madoff did by any means
I think that mentality of taking individual responsibility for one’s own actions and not that of the group seems prevalent in many modern Muslims.
this is OT, but that seems totally contradictory with the historical evidence. the millet system was all about corporate rights.
in any case, i’ve mooted this before, but the analogy between jews and any other group in america is totally weak. despite the conflict between german jews and the eastern european jews in the early 20th century, almost all jews in the USA descend from the jewish culture of greater poland-lithuania. the later national divisions between jews were artificial constructions, and there is a coherent ethno-religious unity to the jewish american identity which has no analogy among say catholics, muslims, or sotuh asian americans. this isn’t to say that there hasn’t been a catholic social-political force in american society, but the gap between german, irish, italian, let alone hispanic, catholics is far greater than the gap between german, litvak, and galician, jews.
there are different ways to conceive of south asian identity. but overall i think you’ll see am model more like italian americans over the long term. a weak sense of subnational political identity, but a strong sense of cultural pride and distinctiveness, bracketed by the fact of italian american diversity due to regional origin.
p.s., minor, but not trivial note, the augustinian conception of original sin which we in the west are familiar with from catholic/protestant tradition is not exactly the same in other xtian traditions:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Original_sin#Eastern_Orthodoxy
(this makes sense, since augustine was a western latin church father, and has much greater weight in the west, though o.s. and its ideas were “in the air” prior to him)
I realize now that many of the friends I am thinking of actually GAVE money to Madoff so we should remove them from the sample set pronto 🙂 carry on Razib….For me its funny when the Galleon thing broke months ago I instantly thought of him as the desi Madoff; apparently Raj is too boring and unknown to pull that off.
.For me its funny when the Galleon thing broke months ago I instantly thought of him as the desi Madoff
hey, perhaps i’m misjudging people on “the street,” but raj seems to just be more brazen about what always goes on. i’m assuming he’ll be fine, as will all his co-conspirators. the street and D.C. take care of their own. madoff was different because he engaged in an old-fashioned ponzi scheme.
“because he engaged in an old-fashioned ponzi scheme”
which is likely why the press hasn’t gone on a feeding frenzy on Raj as opposed to Bernie
I have been reading the details of the Rajaratnam trial to understand what could be construed as insider trading. I’m having difficulty in seeing how what he did was so different from many others On the street. The Desi version OfMadoff was in Silly Valley. A father and son duped wealthy entrepreneurs and engineers into “investing” their life savings.
Perhaps a better reason to distinguish between the desis and the Jews on Wall St. is that the desis at best are (often highly-paid) hired help, while the Jews (and other American white people) own the banks. Not that there’s anything wrong with that.
DesiInScotland,
Jews have a disproportionate amount of influence in the capital markets. This is even reflected in the names of major investment banks, such as ChaseManhattan, Goldman-Sachs, Sandy Weil, and many of today’s CEO’s of these companies. I wouldn’t say that they own them, but I would say that they have more than a random person’s voice in who gets a job there, who gets promoted, etc.
Regarding Kidpoker: “Every Jewish person I know is personally offended by Madoff. there doesn’t seem to be a particular s asian sentiment against Rajaratnam”
First of all, their crimes were quite different, IIRC. Madoff ran a hedge fund that acted like a Ponzy scheme costing his investors. Rajaratnam also ran a hedge fund, but he is accused of insider trading. Insider trading benefits your clients. Speaking of insider trading: G. Soros (himself an Austrian-Hungarian Jew) was fined over $10M for insider trading, but he wasn’t paraded through the streets like Rajaratnam was. Moreover, Jewish people weren’t offended by Soros’ actions, were they?
“I have been reading the details of the Rajaratnam trial to understand what could be construed as insider trading. I’m having difficulty in seeing how what he did was so different from many others On the street.”
Exactly. The system is hopelessly skewed in favor of the insiders.
We need to come up with a better alternative to the current model. It will have to be a completely transparent model that guarantees jobs, that has both a livable minimum wage…..and a maximum wage, that produces goods and services based on need not greed, and so on.
while the Jews (and other American white people) own the banks.
most of the big banks are public, fwiw. if not, they’re partnerships.
most of the big banks are public, fwiw. if not, they’re partnerships.
Yes, but that is tangential to who owns them. Publicly traded firms and partnerships still have owners.
Yes, but that is tangential to who owns them. Publicly traded firms and partnerships still have owners.
most of the entities which own stock don’t have much pull day to day. those entities are stuff like mutual funds or private equity. saying jews (or other others) are owners doesn’t have much meaning. i mean, stuff like the california public employee retirement system is a huge “owner” of slices of these big firms.
most of the entities which own stock don’t have much pull day to day. those entities are stuff like mutual funds or private equity.
Private equity has plenty of pull. That’s the whole point of why private equity would take a position in a publicly-traded firm. I’m not sure what we’re arguing about. Are you seriously denying that Jewish people have a major influence/control over US investment banks, whether publicly-traded, partnerships, or whatever? I find that hard to believe. And I’m not saying it’s a bad thing–they’ve done better than, say, the Japanese-owned investment banks (or can’t we say the Japanese control them?!)
Private equity has plenty of pull. That’s the whole point of why private equity would take a position in a publicly-traded firm.
in the aggregate i’m moderately skeptical of the impact of even big institutional owners on large firms. e.g., http://modeledbehavior.com/2011/01/13/burning-the-corporate-commons/ My sense is that this Burning of the Corporate Commons is a major source of loss in the US economy. In essence Microsoft is captured by its corporate bureaucracy, a group that is more interested in the continued existence of the company than in maximizing profits. The entire point of capitalism is creative destruction, that old firms die as new innovators come along. However, modern firms lock up much of their profits in a war chest designed to keep them from dying. This is pure economic loss. It’s bad for shareholders and its bad for America.
so in terms of ethnic power, in the case of large public firms i think the officers matter more than the diffused ownership.
Are you seriously denying that Jewish people have a major influence/control over US investment banks, whether publicly-traded, partnerships, or whatever?
jews are overrepresented. but i’m indian americans may be overrepresented too, though obviously not as much. there are many classes of whites which are underrepresented vis-a-vis indian americans. but see my point #1, i think at a big robust company the officers are the ones who are making the real decisions.
This is even reflected in the names of major investment banks, such as ChaseManhattan, Goldman-Sachs,
dude, don’t see jews where there ain’t none 😉 salmon p chase was no jew (not that there’s anything wrong with that), though he didn’t seem to have a direct involvement in the bank named after him.
Wow, Razib, you were right, and I was wrong. I apologize, pal. 🙂
I knew a girl surnamed as “Chase”, and she was a Jewish American. But seriously, many C-level executives, members of the board, founders of iBanks, and portfolio managers are Jewish, not that there is anything wrong with this, in much the same way that there is nothing wrong with a lot of Indians owning small shops or owning motels/hotels.
haven’t spent a lot of time in the States, but with that caveat, I’d be cautious about being confident that the Kashmiri-Sri Lanka thing wouldn’t work out. Depends on what circles they travel in. If they are devout Hindus, they are likely to appreciate that between families, and not worry so much about region/language
I think DesInScotland is under the impression that Sri Lanka is an extension of greater India, i.e. culture religion etc no different from India. The majority Sinhalese (70%) are mainly Buddhist and the Tamils (Including Indian Tamils) about 18% maybe either Hindus or Christian.
Then there’s the issue of being Westernized/Christian. Pretty much any local who was a Prime Minister/Governor General had to be Christian and under the Brits an Anglican. Lakshman Kadirgamar (the Tamil Foreign Minister) is a Christian (Methodist), Rajapakse is Mahinda Percy (and a Buddhist now) and father is Don something Rajapakse. Not even going into Solomon West Ridgeway (SWRD) Dias Bandaranayake. I would venture to guess the odds are Raj Raratnam is a Christian.
Then what about color the unspoken issue here. How many Indian’s would identify themselves with Raj’s look unless some South Indian.
All this reinforces Razibs comment “but the gap between german, irish, italian, let alone hispanic, catholics is far greater than the gap between german, litvak, and galician, jews..
Razib, depending on the ownership structure officers may loom large indeed in influence, so I’m with you on that. But aren’t US i-bank officers heavily Jewish too? I’m an outsider, as a non-American, but that seems obvious to me. And not a bad thing–I’m not sure why it’s being somewhat hidden away. Good for them! Banking in West Africa is mostly done by Lebanese. Why hide it?
sbarrkum, yes, I was thinking of the Tamils in Sri Lanka. They are in effect an extension of India, who mix easily with my Indian parents in the UK. Didn’t mean any offense to or to ignore the more numerous Sinhalese (who are also cousins of India, no?).
haven’t spent a lot of time in the States, but with that caveat, I’d be cautious about being confident that the Kashmiri-Sri Lanka thing wouldn’t work out. Depends on what circles they travel in. If they are devout Hindus, they are likely to appreciate that between families, and not worry so much about region/language
Forgot to add: In addition there is no relationship between whatever remains of the caste system in Sri Lanka and in India, specially North India. i.e. Sri Lanka never had the Varna Dharma system (evident from our color) and hence we dont have the equivalent of Brahamin, Kshatriya or Vaisya. Yes, there are few (less than 1%) who fit into that pattern, like the Sindhis and Gujarati business class, but then they are relatively recent immigrants, say within the last 100 years.
That said I dont rule out Kashmiri-Sri Lanka inter-action business or marriage. Thats not because of caste, “devout hinduism” or whatever. It would be because of education, westernized ideals and plain common goals. e.g. Gupta and Rajaratnam who look like they are from different continents. Also in the case of marriage, opposites attract i.e.black and white even though society/family (some more than others, hint) oppose/frown on that coupling.
But aren’t US i-bank officers heavily Jewish too?
from what i know, yes. but go to wikipedia and check out the largest investments banks in the world. turns out out only goldman has a jewish CEO right now! (e.g., jaimie dimon is a greek, vikram pandit is not a jew, and neither is john mack to my knowledge) and he was preceded at that spot by hank paulson, a christian scientist, and john corzine, a congregationalist. weird.
Not weird at all imo, based on the types of people who churn out conspiracy theories about the Jews controlling (insert lucrative field) – sure the Jews are overrepresented in finance/media/medicine/etc but not to the ridiculous extent that some people believe. After all, they only make up about 2.1% of our population.
sure the Jews are overrepresented in finance/media/medicine/etc but not to the ridiculous extent that some people believe.
it’s usually an order of magnitude in the elites though:
http://www.jewishachievement.com/about/about.html
sbarrkum, yes, I was thinking of the Tamils in Sri Lanka. They are in effect an extension of India, who mix easily with my Indian parents in the UK. Didn’t mean any offense to or to ignore the more numerous Sinhalese (who are also cousins of India, no?).
To be honest Sri Lankans mix easily with pretty much anyone specially the below 60 year crowd. Its an island thing. Jamaican, Puerto Ricans, Ghanians whatever. My cousins (from the Tamil side, I am a multi breed) who are in their 60’s (and late 60’s) now, are married to Indonesian, English, German to name a few. Almost all met while studying in Universities out of the country.
Assume you have heard of MIA the singer.
Then from about hundred years back the Coomaraswamys and Ramanathans apparently orthodox Hindus at that time..
http://www.sepiamutiny.com/sepia/archives/005737.html#comment-237860 From the wiki http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rama_P._Coomaraswamy
Rev. Dr. Rama Poonambalam Coomaraswamy, M.D., (1929 – 2006), was a cardiac surgeon, then a psychiatrist and later a Traditionalist Catholic priest and exorcist, besides being a prolific writer on Traditionalist Catholicism and Perennialist topics.
Rama Coomaraswamy, of mixed Tamil, English and Jewish ancestry, was the son of the famous Indologist Ananda Kentish Coomaraswamy, and of his fourth wife Luisa Runstein, an Argentine-born woman of Jewish descent. He is the grandson of the Tamil-Ceylonese lawyer and social pioneer Sir Muthu Coomaraswamy and his English wife Elizabeth Beeby. As such, Rama Coomaraswamy hailed from notable Tamil and English families.
and boston_mahesh replied I have actually visited Dr. Coomaraswamy back in ’04 in Wilton or Milton, Connecticut.! I met his son, Frank, who is 1/8 Tamil. Frank is a principal or a teacher at a school down there. Frank is married and has at least 2 kids, who are 1/16 Tamil. They were all very nice and gracious, and I’ll never forget how happy and old-world Frank’s blonde-hair daughter was to see us. It blew my mind that these kids – who are 1/16 Tamil – still have their old surname, and they carry it with a lot of pride. They are keenly aware that their great grandfather was the first Desi knight.
@Razib – this is OT, but how much time do you spend online on average (daily)? because you post pretty regularly on Sepia Mutiny, plus GNXP, Brown Pundits, and idk if you have a Discovery blog or if I’m confusing you with someone else…just curious.
but how much time do you spend online on average (daily)? because you post pretty regularly on Sepia Mutiny, plus GNXP, Brown Pundits, and idk if you have a Discovery blog or if I’m confusing you with someone else…just curious.
it’s discover, not discovery. i spend a lot of the day online. my smart phone notifies me of stuff constantly (comments, etc.) and i read on the kindle a lot, so i check the web on dat. i will much busier in the near future, so this is a last big blast for a few months.
any offense to or to ignore the more numerous Sinhalese (who are also cousins of India, no?).
No offense. Cousins like say the French and English.
Emigres communities from South India from 300-500 years ago are now Sinhalese. Some Sinhalese (Sri lankans) in the North are now Tamil.
Hopefully we will go back to the Sri Lanka mentality.
No different from the American USAian ethos. Either hold onto the old word or blend into the melting pot.
and you forgot my secular right weblog which was profiled in the new york times.
oh, and just to be clear, by online, i mean that if my browser is open in the background while i’m coding/compiling/running a program, i count that.
In London Banking its not so much of a South Asian clique but the IIM/IITs, who cling on to each other for dear life.
Speaking of “tight networks” all of my suggested connections on facebook are my fellow Baha’is and I’m not even that plugged-in to the community (I reactivated my account after 4yrs). I’ve seriously never seen such a tight virtual cluster and I’d be interested to see if there were studies mapping out online social clusters.
“Forgot to add: In addition there is no relationship between whatever remains of the caste system in Sri Lanka and in India, specially North India. i.e. Sri Lanka never had the Varna Dharma system (evident from our color) and hence we dont have the equivalent of Brahamin, Kshatriya or Vaisya. Yes, there are few (less than 1%) who fit into that pattern, like the Sindhis and Gujarati business class, but then they are relatively recent immigrants, say within the last 100 years.
That said I dont rule out Kashmiri-Sri Lanka inter-action business or marriage. Thats not because of caste, “devout hinduism” or whatever. It would be because of education, westernized ideals and plain common goals. e.g. Gupta and Rajaratnam who look like they are from different continents. Also in the case of marriage, opposites attract i.e.black and white even though society/family (some more than others, hint) oppose/frown on that coupling.”
There is a tamil brahmin (all iyers, no iyengars in sri lanka) community in sri lanka. Don’t think it’s as prominent as in Tamil Nadu, though. Vellalars are at the top in Sri Lanka I believe.
And in the west, they sometimes inter-marry with brahmins from other regions (i know of a sri lankan tamil brahmin/punjabi brahmin marriage).