Will Outsourced, the NBC TV comedy set in a Mumbai call center and cast with more desi actors than Hollywood can shake a feather at, come back for another season? That’s the question up in the air for the moment. Geetika Tandon Lizardi makes her case for the show by preaching to the unconverted–people who think Outsourced is offensive, racist or condescending–in her LA Times article.
Lizardi says she’s one of the “five South Asian writers on the show telling stories that often come straight from our personal experiences.” Her credentials include living in Mumbai where she helped her husband run a call center, and she shares a couple of examples of those straight-from-personal-experience story lines.> An early episode featuring the “Indian head bobble” came from my non-Indian husband’s confusion in communicating with his call center staff. A sequence about Todd, the American boss, and his difficulties boarding an Indian train was inspired by a story another Indian writer shared about his grandmother, who spent a lifetime struggling to push her way onto crowded Indian trains, then employed the same tactics on her first visit to America, elbowing whole families to secure her spot on the monorail at Disneyland. (LAT)
It seems like she’s emphasizing the background of these episodes and the writing team to combat the criticism that the ignorance portrayed at times on the show is racist.
These stories made us laugh in the writers’ room. Yet when we highlight cultural differences on the show, we risk being called offensive. One online comment vehemently accused us of racism for the following line: Todd: “I didn’t know you guys celebrated Valentine’s Day.” But ignorance of a foreign culture isn’t racist; it’s just ignorance.
In other words, the jokes are coming from a place of love and affection from a team including desi writers making fun of their own, so chill out and enjoy. I doubt this argument makes a difference to people who were offended enough by the pilot and its jokes like the one referencing a character’s caste to never tune in again. Where it might make a difference is with the crowd who likes watching Outsourced but feels guilty about it.
Lizardi mentions that there’s been significant support for the highly DVR’d show, including on Twitter after episodes air. I’ve seen some of that in the form of pleas for Guptees and tweets by fans of the character played by Parvesh Cheena. Personally, I can’t imagine wanting to watch again if he wasn’t on the show, so if Outsourced is renewed I feel it’ll be in no small part due to the simultaneously annoying and endearing ham Gupta.
Will Outsourced be renewed for another season? Should it be? And for any Outsourced haters out there, did Lizardi’s article change your mind?
Update: A Seattle radio station interviewed Lizardi. “Microsoftie turned sitcom writer defends ‘racist’ show” has links to audio.
This show deserves a renewal. Notwithstanding some of the uneven accents being portrayed by the Indian manager and some cringeworthy jokes, it is refreshing to see diversity in network television.
The details and individual gags are not offensive. It’s the synthesis that falls flat for me. I’m sure the writers have reasonably original and good intentions, but something is lost with the editors and directors. Or something. It still sucks.
a really clever and innovative show, especially when compared to the dreck that inhabits 90% of commercial television
many of the themes explore genuine differences between indian and US culture, quite respectfully yet with a sharp humor
i hated it when it got started, fearing a temple-of-doom meets call-center mashup. I am now quite impressed as is my ABD daughter.
The only downside is that she now refers to me as Gupta, whenever she can get away with it.
“Outsourced” has improved a lot since its premiere. It’s not up to “Parks & Recreation standards yet – which IMHO is top dog in comedies right now. But I have found a number of episodes more entertaining than recent episodes of The Office.
Really? I rank it #2 behind Communtiy. And then 30 Rock and then Outsourced. But Outsourced will probably overtake 30 Rock soon if it hasn’t already.
The Holi episode was by the far the best one.
Classic Red Herring
If Outsourced is going to be axed its not going to be for cultural insensitivity; it will be the lack of an audience.
The shows ratings are middling at best and that means death.
Outsourced is one of the funniest comedies on TV right now.If only it had a better time slot. I hope they give it another chance.
who wouldnt laught at ‘i comb my hair so i look like i dont comb my hair!’..but do desis have to shown in mumbai working at a call center to be on primetime comedy?guess its better than the weirdo character sendhil played on that creepy nbc series a couple of years ago- the indian scnes on that were absolutely obnoxious/crappy!until mainstream audiences can laugh at cross cultural gaffes guess we shld be happy wthe likes of kelly kapoor (what a neat lil performace in nsa!) & await super troopers2 to hit the big screens latr this year
The show has improved leaps and bounds. Watch the latest episode “Todd’s Holi War.” And trust me, there were a lot of things I hated about the show in the beginning–enough to stop watching. But then I started watching the past handful of episodes again. If they keep it up, they should be given a second season. A few of the NBC comedies started off below par, and without much ratings. They started getting better later in the season–just as Outsourced has.
Guptaaaaah! Pretty much the only reason I watch Outsourced. And Madhuri. Who knew Eternal Flame could have this much Hindustani classical hidden inside it 😀 Somethings on the show are at a level of annoying, if not downright offensive. Knowing about the writers’ pure, desi ghee intentions will make everything a bit more palatable.
I enjoy the program quite a bit. Some of it doesn’t play out, but it is a generic fit. I feel I know some of these characters I began working for an Indian concern in Bangalore, India in January 2001. I have been back and forth since then. I will be returning again shortly on a more permanant basis. Many of the faux pas ring very true to me. It is a veritable petrie dish of comedy. But, I was introduced to “Goodness, Gracious Me” while there and find “Outsourced” tame by comparison. So why the hypersensitivity? The programming seems tame by my co-worker’s standards as well. I have not seen “Mumbai Calling” and am pretty curious about that one as well. Now, the film “Outsourced” was spot on in many ways, but it was also not a comparmentalized television series. The show has great potential and a talented cast. I hope it finds a greater audience. I’ll try to catch it online after I move back to Namma Bengaluru.
Her article didn’t change my mind, but the comments from SMers re: the show make me want to go back and watch a more recent episode…
“but the comments from SMers re: the show make me want to go back and watch a more recent episode..”
The Valentine’s Day episode was funny. That probably marked when the show started to get its act together.
i’ve seen some funny clips of the chunky dude on youtube. first episode was not funny. but perhaps i’ll check it out….
The article didnt change my mind.. .. what they claim funny is just pointing out an alien culture – culture in the smaller town in india automatically is funny ? that is intolerance.
And her staying in couple of years mumbai doesnt mean much, if she was just laughing at them.
I watched about 6 – 7 episodes of the show before I gave up. I didn’t find it intolerant or offensive to Desi’s in the least – if anything, the cultural jabs were aimed mostly at American audiences, not Indians – but it just wasn’t funny. I wanted to like it, and I did notice it got funnier after the first couple episodes, but not really worth watching imho. But then again I don’t own a TV so I don’t watch many shows to begin with. There are some funnier shows at the moment like The Office and Community which I make sure to catch on Hulu every week. Gupta is adorkable though <3 Also I really like the actress who plays Madhuri (featured above). If the show gets canceled, I hope those 2 can move on to get better roles.
I am a proud Indian-American and I am very offended by the story lines in Outsourced.
Your show caricatures us as geeky, socially inept, bungling buffoons. It also caricatures Indian women as loose and desperate to sleep with white men. I have spent a lot of time in India working with white male colleagues and they have all complained that Indian women are very hard to date much less bed. They are very happy to leave and return to their free-love culture of the West. Your show never shows the greatness of Indian culture. For example, you never show how close Indian families are and how commited Indian parents are to their childrens education. You also never contrast Indian marriages and American marriages. Perhaps you can point out how divorce is still taboo in Indian culture and how marriages stay intact there — unlike the USA where you have 50% divorce rate. Finally, you may wish to point out that most Indian brides and grooms have had very few lovers before marriage while American men and women have usually had at least 5 and usually 10 or more lovers before marriage.
You know Ravi, I only watched say 6-7 episodes, but I didn’t observe a lot of what you said. For example:
This sounds like the character Gupta (Parvesh Cheena) but not really the other characters at all – Asha and Manmeet, 2 other main characters, are portrayed as the exact opposite for example. In the episodes I saw, none of the Indian women liked Ben (the white American guy) at all. There was an episode when he kept patting people on the shoulder or something and they were repulsed by this. The woman on the show dress modestly (one in hijab) and act conservative as well. The one exception is Asha, who went to dinner with Ben, but then decided to marry some Indian guy her parents set her up with. The only loose woman on the show is Pippa Black’s character, who is a White Aussie. So unless in the past 5 episodes I haven’t seen, all the Indian women magically turned into loose whores lusting after Ben, I don’t get what you’re saying at all.
I honestly thought they kind of exaggerated the “puritanical” aspect of Desi culture if anything. The 2 Westerners are depicted as vicious horn-dogs, lots of sex scenes, while in contrast, the Indian characters either don’t date, or mention arranged marriages and other traditional things.
So in short, I think we’re either watching 2 different shows, or the show has changed dramatically since I stopped watching, or you’re just making stuff up. Which is it?
“I am a proud Indian-American” People love their labels more than reason affords
“and I am very offended by the story lines in Outsourced.” Jeff Zucker President NBC Entertainment c/o NBC-TV 3000 West Alameda Ave. Burbank., CA 91523 NBC comment line 212-664-2333 NBC: 1-818-840-4444
“Your show caricatures us as geeky, socially inept, bungling buffoons.” If the shoe fits… Does it make you yearn for monkey brains and eyeball soup?
“It also caricatures Indian women as loose and desperate to sleep with white men.” They wouldn’t be so desperate if they would, http://www.sepiamutiny.com/sepia/archives/006197.html How’s our obsession with white skin going by the way? It’s a total myth no yaar?
“I have spent a lot of time in India working with white male colleagues and they have all complained that Indian women are very hard to date much less bed. They are very happy to leave and return to their free-love culture of the West.” Yeah dude, all the women here sleep with all the white men whenever they want. You know that thing they say about the difference between gay men and straight men being that gay men actually get sex when they want it?…Totally false. That only applies to white men.
“Your show never shows the greatness of Indian culture.” What’s Indian culture?
” For example, you never show how close Indian families are and how commited Indian parents are to their childrens education.” Tiger parents? What’s education?
“You also never contrast Indian marriages and American marriages. Perhaps you can point out how divorce is still taboo in Indian culture and how marriages stay intact there — unlike the USA where you have 50% divorce rate.” Yes because staying in a verbally (or physically) abusive marriage in a male chauvinistic culture is so much more noble that giving the finger to a terrible partner. I’m surprised that we don’t rub that in the face of people more often, I can see the billboards with Divya Bharati right now “India: Where Divorce isn’t a choice…so we’re better lol”
“Finally, you may wish to point out that most Indian brides and grooms have had very few lovers before marriage while American men and women have usually had at least 5 and usually 10 or more lovers before marriage.” While I would love to subscribe to the issue of Statistical Monthly that your ass seems to publish, I would go by present data and call horseshit on that. They did an actual study for that matter (that I won’t reveal because then everyone will know that I watched Sex and the City too closely) based on a Television series that there are widely divergent statistics when it comes to number of sexual partners, Moreover, going by your own logic can’t you conclude that Indian brides and grooms have so few lovers because (as you implied earlier) “Indian women are harder to bed” .
Whatever dude, it is obvious that you have had a very sheltered and narrow view of either culture so it is best you take your self-righteous indignation and channel it through the proper methods…I’d start with “Discovery of India” and end with , “just change the channel”
@Rahul:http://www.daemonstv.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/10/OUTSOURCED-Party-Of-Five-2-550×366.jpg
oh, for the love of Todd. Are Indian-Americans (yay labels) so blinded by their excitement of seeing brown people on their oversized tvs that they don’t want to confront the larger impacts of this cringe worthy show? Or do they not understand the damage the media causes in it’s portrayal of race relations, no matter how positive they may seem? Don’t get me wrong, I do think if anything it highlights (the perceived) American ignorance of foreign cultures and appreciate the writers’ motivations but they are going about it the wrong way. Calling this show ‘racist’ would be a stretch and the level of offense is subjective, but you can’t deny the character’s not only rely heavily on stereotypes (the quiet Indian woman, the sex deprived and obssessed Indian man, the sultry Indian woman) but new ones are emerged as well. Also keep in mind that even though the writers are Indian, the show is made to cater to their largely white audience and they are merely tools that don’t have as much power as they/we seem to think.
Though I can’t deny Gupta is lovable, this show is just unnecessary and makes me wonder why it was created in the first place.
@fenri “they don’t want to confront the larger impacts of this cringe worthy show?” What are the larger impacts you speak of?
” Or do they not understand the damage the media causes in it’s portrayal of race relations, no matter how positive they may seem? ” What damage has been caused?
” the character’s not only rely heavily on stereotypes (the quiet Indian woman, the sex deprived and obssessed Indian man, the sultry Indian woman) but new ones are emerged as well.” Nothing wrong with stereotypes. Our mind depends heavily on stereotyping to function. Stereotyping in and itself is not wrong. In fact stereotypes typically are based on fact. And no the show does not depend heavily on stereotypes.
“this show is just unnecessary and makes me wonder why it was created in the first place.” What comedy show is absolutely necessary? It was created to make people laugh and I think it succeeds.
Trollololol.
No really, I find it difficult to discuss this with someone who thinks there is nothing wrong with stereotypes. By show, I meant the backdrop of it, you really need to understand the intentions with it, “omgggg wouldn’t it be HILARIOUS if we put a white guy in the midst of a bunch of ridiculous brown people who have a ridiculous culture and do ridiculous things!!!!111!!!1 those pplz are so funny and are meant for jokes, not like theyre actual ppl or anything”
LOL so basically if an Indian woman is quiet it’s a stereotype and if she’s outgoing or “sulty” (not a word I would use to describe Asha but ok…) it’s also a stereotype. Should the writers limit themselves to a handful of neutral personality characteristics so as not to offend you? At least you’re not as bad as the poster above who literally made up BS that didn’t happen on the show to prove how it was racist.
Now I don’t like stereotypes myself, and this show does have some (I would use the Indian manager Rajiv and the Aussie woman as examples) but there is a big difference between showing elements of a culture and “stereotyping”. For example, the Indian characters are often shown haggling on the show, you could interpret that as “stereotyping that Indians are cheap and always like to haggle” or you could be honest and admit that it’s an everyday aspect of Desi culture. The Indians also mention arranged marriage, that is a stereotype about Indians, but it’s also another aspect of Desi culture, so would you have them pretend it doesn’t exist?
Really I think there is a segment of people who are always looking to be offended no matter what and it doesn’t make sense to cater to the “Well I’m a Gay Eskimo and I’m offended!” crowd.
The only thing offensive about this show is probably how lame some of the jokes are. It’s like I can predict some of the cheesy lines before they’re spoken :/
I wish the show could’ve been this good from the beginning. It’s a shame that it might not be picked up for next year. As soon as they decided to close the ridiculous, inappropriate and insulting Todd/Asha storyline and focus on the ensemble as a whole, it became so much better. And fewer and fewer times where I’ve cringed.
Also a note to writers, if they read. There are reasons other than the expected-before-even-uttered-on-screen “I was born and brought up in the States” why an Indian American wouldn’t know, speak or understand Hindi. The obvious being, they aren’t from a Hindi-speaking background. Also, the Indian National Antham — Jana Gana Mana– is not in Hindi. It is in Bengali. (From the “Guess Who’s Coming to Delhi” episode)
On a positive note, the music selection from the beginning has been good. Also from the episode mentioned above: I discovered “Bombay Deewana” from Hard Kaur, which has an incredibly catchy chorus.
Fenri said: “No really, I find it difficult to discuss this with someone who thinks there is nothing wrong with stereotypes. By show, I meant the backdrop of it, you really need to understand the intentions with it, “omgggg wouldn’t it be HILARIOUS if we put a white guy in the midst of a bunch of ridiculous brown people who have a ridiculous culture and do ridiculous things!!!!111!!!1 those pplz are so funny and are meant for jokes, not like theyre actual ppl or anything”
The problem, as I see it, is that you are ashamed to be Indian and think that brown is somehow inferior. It’s not. Indians have much to be proud of. And it is obvious from the attention to detail that the writers love and think highly of Indian culture. They don’t seem to think that Indians have a ridiculous culture the way that you do. But you are probably too ashamed of being Indian to see that.
“omgggg wouldn’t it be HILARIOUS if we put a white guy in the midst of a bunch of ridiculous brown people who have a ridiculous culture and do ridiculous things!!!!111!!!1 those pplz are so funny and are meant for jokes, not like theyre actual ppl or anything”
Fenri now you’re getting into Hollywood insider speak, a realm very few are privy to.
Its a power game pure and simple, look at Leslie Moonves, begging Sheen to come back just because FOX courted him…at the highest level its all High School.
“so basically if an Indian woman is quiet it’s a stereotype and if she’s outgoing or “sulty” (not a word I would use to describe Asha but ok…) it’s also a stereotype. Should the writers limit themselves to a handful of neutral personality characteristics so as not to offend you?”
1) I said Asha was sultry because the way she looked at Todd in the beginning episodes. I never claimed she was outgoing though, she doesn’t seem to have too many lines even when the sketch focuses on her so I’d describe her as quiet as well. Nice of you to put words in my mouth though. 2) I never claimed to be offended, I stated that the show has much deeper rooted problems. If anything, the suggestion is that the writers should expand personality traits, not limit them to mere stereotypes. Also, what’s wrong with neutral characteristics? You almost know nothing about the Indian characters except in relation to Indian culture. This is why it’s problematic to showcase a bunch of non-white people to a majority of viewers who are white, it might not be offensive per se but no one who has a functioning brain can deny it perpetuates ignorance. I have no doubt the people who watch this show are ones who can’t differentiate between Indian-americans and Indians fresh from the desh (there is a difference), so I can only expect questions about my arranged marriage even though I am staunchly opposed to the practice (this is just a smaller insignificant example)
“The problem, as I see it, is that you are ashamed to be Indian and think that brown is somehow inferior” LOLWUT. I was satirizing the mindset of shows’ creators. Obviously to them India is a faraway land which has practices and people that need to be ridiculed.
I agree, I think they should do a musical-themed episode!
Nothing, but watching boring normal people go about their boring ass jobs day to day doesn’t make for good television. NBC shows often give characters outrageous character traits and puts them in normal working environments (The Office, Community, Parks & Recreation, etc) and Outsourced is just like that. I’m not saying it has to be over-the-top to be funny either. What I am saying is it’s not rooted in ignorance, because this is the same formula they use for most of their comedy shows.
Tbh the only people I know who watch this show are South Asians to begin with lol. Although I may have gotten my roommate (african-american) hooked on it
“because this is the same formula they use for most of their comedy shows. “
No, I know. But it’s not the same when race comes into play.
The problem with Outsources is that it just simply boring.
“Obviously to them India is a faraway land which has practices and people that need to be ridiculed.”
Worrrrrrrrd says this gent
@Fenri “one who has a functioning brain can deny it perpetuates ignorance” Actually a number of people say they learned a lot about Indian culture. Holi for ex.
@Fenri “LOLWUT. I was satirizing the mindset of shows’ creators. Obviously to them India is a faraway land which has practices and people that need to be ridiculed.” It is quite obvious that they are not ridiculing anybody
@Fenri “I have no doubt the people who watch this show are ones who can’t differentiate between Indian-americans and Indians fresh from the desh (there is a difference), so I can only expect questions about my arranged marriage even though I am staunchly opposed to the practice (this is just a smaller insignificant example)”
This is exactly what I meant when I said that you are ashamed of your culture. In this statement you imply that you are superior the those fresh from desh. You think arranged marriage is a backward idea and you are superior because you oppose the practice. You are projecting your own dislike of your culture onto the writers and producers.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TylvUGJIi_w
Although, the next step would be to show how Holi is not really an “Indian” thing but something more regional/city-pop-culture. Same with Ganesh Chaturdhi and other such ostentatious festivals which are more of a North, West and North-West Indian thing.
John “There’s nothing Wrong With Stereotypes” Jacobi is a prime example of how this show decimates brain cells. That, or you are 15 and have no understanding of racial politics and the media’s role in them.
Also, I am not ashamed of ‘my’ culture, I am however ashamed of the chauvinistic aspects of it, which is primarily reinforced by arranged marriage. This goes for marriage in general, arranged or not, but that’s another discussion entire.
John “There’s nothing Wrong With Stereotypes” Jacobi is a prime example of how this show decimates brain cells. That, or you are 15 and have no understanding of racial politics and the media’s role in them.
Also, I am not ashamed of ‘my’ culture, I am however ashamed of the chauvinistic aspects of it, which is primarily reinforced by arranged marriage. This goes for marriage in general, arranged or not, but that’s another discussion entirely.
@Fenri “John “There’s nothing Wrong With Stereotypes” Jacobi is a prime example of how this show decimates brain cells. That, or you are 15 and have no understanding of racial politics and the media’s role in them.”
Here come the ad hominem attacks. And the conspiracy theories about media and racial politics without a shred of evidence to back your claims. BTW I am in the media business. Yes stereotyping is not racism and not bad per se. For example, if you meet someone from Germany, you assume they speak German. It is this sort of stereotyping which allows us to navigate the world efficiently without starting from a blank page every time. Of course if stereotyping is combined with hatred, it becomes racism. But there is no evidence of hatred in this case.
@Fenri “I am however ashamed of the chauvinistic aspects of it, which is primarily reinforced by arranged marriage. “
As i understand it , in an arranged marriage, typically the person who is getting married gets final veto on a proposal. There is nothing chauvinistic about this arrangement. In fact , I would say it is superior to dating, because the family does a background check on the person and you get to skip the icky parts of dating such as “picking up” a stranger.
I find two camps of people hilarious – the whiteys who disparaged that a show about outsourcing is offensive because of the lost jobs. Get a grip and lighten up. And then the Indians who were offended because Indians were occasionally the butt of jokes on the show(which is very rare).
Initially, I found the show kind of bland and was actually hoping the show would not be afraid to make jokes about India. . But I kept watching and it has actually become one of my favorite shows on NBC and just in time too, because the rest of their Thursday lineup is declining in quality, especially 30 Rock and COmmunity. Office remains very watchable, but has become stale too.
Anisha Nagarajan is easily the standout. She not only acts well, but she nails the indian accent. Gupta is the second best. The rest of the Indian cast is also good with the exception of the accents. Manmeet is great, but his accent works sometimes as Indian, and other times as a middle easterner. But then again, it’s not like we nitpick shows with Asian characters where Japanese characters may have a chinese accent.
COMCAST on demand has put up all the episodes for free. Otherwise, check HULU.
To those who say outsourcing to India is destroying jobs be aware that India has a trade deficit with the US. So while India is taking crappy American call center jobs, it is creating jobs in the US by buying high tech equipment, planes, power plants etc. At least in terms of net pay, India is creating more jobs in the US than the US is shipping out.
May I also add that the opening sequence for one of the recent episodes where the entire office is sliding along a just mopped floorwas one of the more charming opening sequences to a sitcom that I have seen in recent years.
In other news, white Americans should start getting offended by the people on the Office? I still do not get how Outsourced can be construed as an offensive show to Indians. It’s a freaking sitcom. I hope they dont really go easy on the jokes to placate the easily offended.
I would say it is superior to dating, because the family does a background check on the person
Tell that to my mother and she’ll beg to differ. Did a “background check” prevent my dad from strangling her for over 20 years? Who are you trying to fool? How on earth can a “background check” compare to 3 years of getting to know someone in person? Sure, many people who date and then marry end up miserable, but in my experience it’s usually because they lacked the ability to assess a person’s character at the time they got married. Only someone incredibly shallow can claim to know a person well after a mere background check; perhaps they are merely looking at things like occupation, caste, family status etc as measures of a person’s character…
As i understand it , in an arranged marriage, typically the person who is getting married gets final veto on a proposal.
Although forced marriages are not the norm, it is definitely quite common for someone to be reluctantly coerced into a match they don’t feel so good about. Also, the individual’s choice is less meaningful in a society where mingling between the sexes is so strongly frowned upon, and alternatives to an arranged marriage are not available to many.
The choice of a spouse is not a black and white matter, where you’re either forced into the marriage or you enter it wholeheartedly. Rather, your choice is situated on a continuum, with forced marriages on one end and modern “love marriages” on the other end. Most Indian arranged marriages fall somewhere in the middle; there is a degree of freewill and also a degree of cajoling/ coercion.
@choomp “How on earth can a “background check” compare to 3 years of getting to know someone in person? ” A background check is mere basic due diligence. I did not say it will guarantee anything. Both methods have their flaws because people are flawed. If you get to know a person after dating for a while, should not there be far less divorces in the US compared to our current 50%? Or are most people really bad at evaluating their dates? And therefore dating may not be that superior to arranged marriage.?
In my opinion (so this is slightly, relatively even, subjective) I don’t think outsourcing in India is a credible threat to the rest of the world. Disclaimer: I can speak only for legal outsourcing as I have had the privileged opportunity to check out quite a few of these establishments in New Delhi. Some of these LPOs are headed by Indians while others even have a U.S. nexus. Regardless, most could be more productive. Now before anyone points out that examples in New Delhi don’t represent India as a whole, I would remind that ND is the capital. A lot of the major legal eagles are based there cos of the courts and govt buildings & stuff.
This would be true, if the lack of divorces in S.Asia was a result of the superior, perfectly amicable relationships there – but actually you have to take culture into account. In the US, divorce is not only culturally acceptable, but extremely common (nearly 50%); not only is there no real social stigma of getting a divorce, but since women typically frequently work outside the home and domestic abuse rates are low, it is easier to end the marriage.
On the other hand, in countries like my Grandma’s native Afghanistan, the divorce rates are incredibly low! But that has less to do with the perfection of arranged marriage and more to do with the fact that women will be beaten within an inch of their lives for daring to complain about anything, and that the majority of women are illiterate, uneducated, impoverished, and have no means of supporting themselves without a husband. Now, if we all emulated Afghanistan, divorce rates worldwide would magically get lower (including in India) but I think we all realize it’s not really a reflection of the perfection of their arranged marriages….
World-wide, divorce rates seem to get significantly higher as women become more educated and work outside the home. For example, compare the divorce rate in 1950’s America to 2010 America for an example of the role culture and the feminism movement play in society.
S.Asian culture is definitely one of the most family-oriented cultures globally too imo which is why I would guess even 100 years from now, India will still have lower rates than Western nations, but that’s a different issue.
Alina,
Wow! Your insights and your ability to write is remarkable. You must be first cousins with Razib! 🙂 Maybe you should be a columnist on SM. Many of us, especially me, are interested in Pashtunwali and/or Afghanistan etc. Your writings is very different from the Pashtuns that I see on youtube comment sections and other blogs in that you show a lot of wisdom, open-mindedness, universal type of thinking, and a maturity.
“But that has less to do with the perfection of arranged marriage and more to do with the fact that women will be beaten within an inch of their lives for daring to complain about anything, and that the majority of women are illiterate, uneducated, impoverished, and have no means of supporting themselves without a husband. Now, if we all emulated Afghanistan, divorce rates worldwide would magically get lower (including in India) but I think we all realize it’s not really a reflection of the perfection of their arranged marriages….”
very important point Alina.
If you get to know a person after dating for a while, should not there be far less divorces in the US compared to our current 50%? Or are most people really bad at evaluating their dates? And therefore dating may not be that superior to arranged marriage.?
It’s ludicrous to compare divorce rates in the US and South Asia and then argue about dating vs arranged marriage. Just because a marriage lasts longer does not mean it is superior. Look at my parents; married for thirty years, dad is a violent obnoxious stingy controlling fat unfaithful jerk, no sign of divorce on the horizon, just two miserable people afraid of commiting social suicide in their community by parting ways.
When South Asians become more accepting of divorce, and South Asian women become more financially independent, then it would make sense to compare divorce rates in the two countries. Until that happens, it’s simply intellectually dishonest to pull out that 50% statistic and claim that arranged marriages are “superior to dating” (your words not mine.)
@Alina-M Said “This would be true, if the lack of divorces in S.Asia was a result of the superior, perfectly amicable relationships there – but actually you have to take culture into account. In the US, divorce is not only culturally acceptable, but extremely common (nearly 50%); not only is there no real social stigma of getting a divorce, but since women typically frequently work outside the home and domestic abuse rates are low, it is easier to end the marriage.”
I completely agree Alina, and that is specifically why I did not compare the US and Indian divorce rates. The point I was trying to make is that dating someone does not mean that you really get to know a person in terms of marriage material. The chances of success are 50%. Which means that you might as well toss a coin and you would get the same success rate. I was trying to counter the argument that you really really get to know someone by dating them for a while.
Thanks for clarifying….many people do genuinely believe arranged marriages are better because of lower divorce rate (including my uncle, who ironically hates his wife) so I was unsure.
“many people do genuinely believe arranged marriages are better because of lower divorce rate (including my uncle, who ironically hates his wife)”
This is a huge issue Alina and one that strikes at the heart of S Asian/Indian identity. For that reason you won’t find it discussed very much in so called ‘polite’ company.
I mean it’s a heated issue, because arranged marriage is a part of our heritage whether we like it or not; most American Desi’s can find arranged marriages in our families if we go back 1 – 3 generations. So it’s tricky to discuss it without inadvertently insulting someone’s way of life or even their religion. Now I actually don’t think Islam requires arranged marriage, but you will find many Pakistani’s who insist it does. Why? Because I believe S.Asians have traditionally done the arranged marriage thing long before Islam even became popular in the region, and naturally we combined our own traditions with the new religion (Islam) to form a Desified version of Islam. The only American Muslims I’ve met whom have gotten arranged marriages are S.Asians. Never have I heard of an Arab/Persian family in my mosque arranging marriages for their kids. Sure, most of them insist their child marries a Muslim of the same nationality, but they will not literally arrange it in the way we traditionally do. I’m 20 now and I notice that so far 3 of my former sunday school peers (all Paki females) have had arranged marriages abroad, where literally one summer they will fly to Karachi to get hitched. I congratulated all 3 when I ran into them or on Facebook (they seem happy) but secretly I wonder how they could do this? :/
Arranged marriages are not a solely South Asian practice. They existed and still exist in other cultures, including Middle Eastern cultures. It’s not just South Asian Muslims who have arranged marriages.
Some form of modern Arranged Marriages still exist in East Asia. Though for many, it’s more like an Arranged meeting with the idea of marriage in mind. But it existed in those societies before. It also existed in older European societies, and some Jews will tell you that it existed a few generations back in their families as well. In fact, it still exists in some Orthodox Jewish circles.
Yep, I think arranged marriage has existed in almost every Eurasian culture at some point
It’s not just South Asian Muslims who have arranged marriages.
I understand, like I’ve heard some American Mormons still do this as well as other religious minorities, but tbh I don’t know anything about them – as Desi of Muslim heritage, I can really only speak for my own family, experience and culture and not anyone else really.
Another reason I focus on S.Asians is because we have continued this tradition more extensively than any other group I can think of in America. Like I don’t know any East Asian Americans in 2011 America having arranged marriages, even though most East Asians here are 1st – 3rd gen like us. I’ve never met any Jews doing it either, and I grew up in NY so there’s no shortage of Jews here, Orthodox or Reformed 😉 But the practice is fairly common amongst Pakistanis I’ve met, including 1 person in my family (uncle).
“I notice that so far 3 of my former sunday school peers (all Paki females) have had arranged marriages abroad, where literally one summer they will fly to Karachi to get hitched. I congratulated all 3 when I ran into them or on Facebook (they seem happy) but secretly I wonder how they could do this? :/”
Wow that’s rough, must be very hard to marry someone you barely know. Most American born desis have their own version of this. You would be hard pressed to find a hindu girl over 26 who is single and not being pressured to marry the first available desi within shouting distance.
it;s not just Hindu girls over 27. Many Hindu boys over 27 feel much pressure. Many second generation Hindu men hop over to India for the summer and come back with brides. Most first generation men do that routinely. In fact most Hindu women who come to US come as wives of Hindu men they were arranged to marriage in the desh over a summer. It’s backward and primitive practice but the next generation is more enlightened after living in the west.
Like Alina-M wisely said “secretly I wonder how they could do this?” She is already more civilized havign lived in US all her life.
South Asia is the only part of the world that still practices the old version of arranged marriage. Gypsies in Romania, believed to have originated from India, also use that antiquated version of arranged marriage. In India, where 45% of the population live in horrific poverty (on less than 2 dollars a day), child brides are common and marriage still takes place without two people ever meeting. It’s left over from ancient times.
East Asia, Middle East, and other nations don’t use arranged marriage. All cultures, except maybe the west now, nudge young people together and encourage them to consider marriage, but nothing like South Asian practices.
India is getting more civilized. Urban women wear jeans and shirt instead of ridiculous and impractical sarees and ugly shalwar kameezes. More women are refusing to cook and more urban people eat out now. the culture is evolving slowly. With time, we should see women living with their partners or not marrying at all. Marriage is a tradition that has no real value in feminist cultures. In Europe and especially more evolved Scandinavian cultures, marriage is out of fashion. Partners live with each other and part when they are not compatible anymore. Sexual activity is common among teenagers. Children don’t need to be born within marriages. They do just fine with co-habitating partners. More and more gay partners are having children in America and Europe. Marriage is obviously unnecessary to raise children.
India is changing with the latest film stars openly living with their lovers without marriage like Karishma kapoor and Saif Ali Khan. Hopefully we will see more women opting for long term relationships rather than marriage. Time to end the backward primitive values of South Asia.
Thanks Boston 🙂
@KidPoker – you know they all consented and seem happy and all 3 girls are working on their Bachelor’s so I’m not trying to imply their families are backwards in any way, but I can’t quite wrap my head around it
You would be hard pressed to find a hindu girl over 26 who is single and not being pressured to marry the first available desi within shouting distance. Haha yep, gotta take care of it while you’re young and slim or else all the good desi doctors will be taken 😉
(kidding…kind of)