I have two videos for your viewing pleasure today.
In the total wingnut corner we have this “patriotic” anthem by Trade Martin making the rounds in conservative circles. It reminds us why graduating from college is so important in the modern day:
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p>And in the opposing corner we have this video by Malini Sur, a surgery resident / singer songwriter in New York:
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I read a nice quote on blogger Andrew Sullivan’s site yesterday:
“[When] the [Virginia] bill for establishing religious freedom… was finally passed,… a singular proposition proved that its protection of opinion was meant to be universal. Where the preamble declares that coercion is a departure from the plan of the holy author of our religion, an amendment was proposed, by inserting the word “Jesus Christ,” so that it should read “a departure from the plan of Jesus Christ, the holy author of our religion.” The insertion was rejected by a great majority, in proof that they meant to comprehend within the mantle of its protection the Jew and the Gentile, the Christian and Mahometan, the Hindoo and infidel of every denomination.” –Thomas Jefferson: Autobiography, 1821. ME 1:67 [Link]
Well, I guess there was a good reason why the conservative school board in Texas decided to expunge Jefferson from textbooks.
Floridian, that question has not only been asked, but also preemptively and immediately answered by those who asked it, such as the Newt. Insinuations of deliberate opacity have been liberally (hah!) thrown around.
In re 50.
Yes, because names like Raheel Raza and Tarek Fatah are indicative of the hindu right, and cartoons are the equivalent of a site that was struck by the fuselage and landing gear of one of the 9-11 planes. And it’s not freedom of expression in this case–good job louis brandeis–it’s free exercise of religion. The question here isn’t the legal thing to do, but the right thing to do. But please, do not be deterred by fact or logic, sir. Proceed with the ill-informed, drive-by oneliners. They will surely add to the discussion…
Thank you for the permission, Wry. I wouldn’t know what I would do without it.
Oh, I agree. Which is why I like to see the right on all sides unite. It gives me great hope for a future of amity.
In re 53 and 54
Oh yes, absolutely. I’m glad I could provide help to you, Rahul. I’m sure it will make those oh so insightful and deep remarks of yours that much more enlightening for the rest of sepia.
And yes, exactly, it’s all about painting with broad brush strokes. In the spirit of that, so glad to see the radical left (centrists and center-left be damned) continue to support the agenda of those who actively curtail the speech they profess to defend–yay cageprisoners! I’m sure when the time comes, they will amply reward all useful idiots on the far left “for a future of amity.” So be patient, rahu beta…
It didn’t take you too long to show your true colors, and extrapolate from these people to radical Islamic fundamentalists, sharia law and the like. C’mon, Wry, at least pretend to not be the raging bigot that you are. I’ll talk to you when you simmer down, maybe in a few decades. Have a good day.
Rahu beta, you were showing your colors from day one with your anti-hindu remarks. so please, don’t call me a bigot when you’ve been disguising your bigotry with “secular” labels. I have friends from all colors and creeds, including of the faith being discussed here. It’s a pity that in your nervous tics that pass for comments that you fail to consider that moderate muslims could actually be against the proposal. Yet you obviously have no problem “extrapolating” from moderates to tar people as bigots. So painting with a broad brush is ok for you apparently…hmmm
Since you obviously don’t know anything about cageprisoners, let alone the historicity of “victory mosques” and why even moderate muslims would be concerned about those implications, I will gladly leave you to your ignorant devices. But I suggest a long look in the mirror before your cognitive dissonance takes too great a toll on you. But do get back to us after you get that nervous tic checked…
That there are some moderate muslims against the proposal does not in any way diminish my optimism that the American right, the Hindu right, and the Islamic fundamentalists will come together.
(Also, you seem to think that mangling my name is some kind of rhetorical victory; I sure hope you are enjoying it).
Arey rahu beta, back so soon? What happened, yaar? I thought that penultimate driveby one liner was the ultimate. You got a chance to tar centrists (and oddly enough muslim moderates) as hindu fundamentalist or american far rightists, to salvage your argument from its absence of nuance with ad homs. You even had a chance to call me “raging” when my remarks were obviously measured–though i can’t same the same for yours
And obviously, I was just paying you back in the same coin by painting your radical left position with a broad brush. Oh I see, guilt by association is only fun when you do it. Be wary, Rahul kumar, cognitive dissonance is not all that it seems… And rahu is merely a term of endearment, since you’re just such a congenial and insightful young man on these discussion pages. So don’t get too upset…Remember beta, we’re all winners here–even you!
Since none of my statements ever said that all opposition was from fundamentalists, your repetition of this fallacy is quite hilarious. So, to summarize your statements: 1. Supporters of this mosque means essentially are bowing to fundamentalism and Sharia law; 2. You have latched onto a couple of Muslim moderates who would rather bow to the mob as some evidence that this position is moderate.
I forgive the spectacularly unhinged nature of your comments because I realize that this is unavoidable in raging bigots. I, however, conclude with great optimism that your advocacy of dhimmitude by the minority community is one more sign of the right on all sides coming together.
Adieu, Rahul
Oh, rahu beta, there we go again with the name-calling, “raging bigot”, “spectacularly unhinged.” Such big phrases for such a little boy. It’s a pity you can’t read beyond a 3rd grade level otherwise the Ottawa Citizen article would clearly demonstrate to you that the authors are not bowing down to a mob, but expressing their own opinion rooted in fact and principle. Here it is again so your teacher can help you understand it: http://www.ottawacitizen.com/news/Mischief+Manhattan/3370303/story.html
But that’s ok, the irony of you using the word “dhimmitude” to brand moderate muslims speaking in their own voice is obviously lost on you. But with you openly insulting respectable practitioners of that faith, does that may be make you…gasp…anti-muslim??? that cognitive dissonance must really be eating you up…Just keep telling yourself, “it’s ok, I’m a good person. I am not the raging bigot that accuse others of being.”
If it is not “right” to have a Muslim community center sooo close (2 blocks!) to WTC site, then what is an acceptable distance? How large must the “Muslim-free” zone be? And how is a “Muslim-free” zone (which is in effect what the opponents to this want) the right thing to do? How is it American and inclusive? How is it constitutional? How is it not racist?
Muslim Americans are just as American as any one else. Muslim Americans died in the 9/11 attacks. Their country was attacked too. On that day, they were attacked just as all Americans were.
Spicey,
It’s not a matter of “a muslim free zone”–please don’t speak in hyperbole. If you watch the Eboo Patel CNN video on the newsfeed, the firefighter speaking has himself noted that a mosque already exists in close proximity to the wtc. The issue here is that this specific site was actually directly hit by the fuselage and landing gear of one of the planes, and a massive, imposing construction on this site (which really should be given landmark status) would be inappropriate for that reason. There are also rumors that groundbreaking for the proposed construction was to take place on 9-11-11 (I’m not sure if that’s the case and would be happy to retract if someone could post reliable links to clarify). While the goal here may be to build bridges, given that the construction isn’t an outright memorial but a mosque, I’m sure you can understand why this might make people uncomfortable, let alone upset. And Cordoba was not the pluralist and equal opportunity society that America is. Christians and Jews (and Spaniards in general) don’t have the fondest memories of it, in spite of what the revisionists may say today.Â
The constitution gives people the right to do many things. But with rights, come responsibilities. Freedom of expression is not unlimited–i.e. you cannot yell fire in a crowded theater. Yes, there is a constitutionally right to build on that site. That doesn’t mean that people must elect to do it in spite of what victims of one of this country’s greatest national tragedies think.
Instead of crying racism, please consider the insensitivity of your own position. It’s a two-way street, Spicey. Yes, you’re right. Innocent muslim-americans were killed too. They did not plan the strikes. But all muslim-americans, just as all americans, owe a debt of gratitude to first responders everywhere in this country who risk their lives every day in the line of duty. Isn’t only fair to consider their feelings on the proposed construction?
Is this the Rahul of yore? How’re you doing young man?
The “supporting it is the American way” opinion voiced by some of the commenters got me thinking. I belong to the same camp by the way. Now this may sound self-serving, but if we want America to prosper in a truly commercial sense, and we all do because our future depends on it, we absolutely must continue to uphold all the values that represent America at its best. The economics and ideology are very interdependent here.
America attracts a vastly disproportionate share of global assets, both human and capital. Why? It has a lot to do with what the world perceives America to be, a place where dreams can become reality, where one is free to pursue one’s goals and beliefs relatively unmolested by the authorities, a place where people are judged by what they are, not who they are… you know the speech. Money follows ideology.
Right now South Florida is benefiting immensely from the Venezualans who are fleeing from Chavez, who is another Castro in the making. I am doing a lot of business with several Venezuelans right now, and if you hear them talk, it all boils down to America being the only safe haven to flee to not just from a business standpoint – which is hardly true given our current economic predicament – but as a place to live peacefully and raise their children. Money follows ideology.
I say let ’em build whatever they want.
It is bad PR for muslims, that’s for sure. The intentions to build at that location might be noble but the $100 million could be better spent elsewhere.
Right on! This is America, land of the free. But let’s carry it to its logical conclusion and, as some others have said here, build a gay bar on one side and a strip club on the other, and how about a pig slaughter house thrown in for good measure? Peace be on the imams.
Hello, Floridian. Good to see you here too. Sadly, I don’t visit Sepia very often these days but some free time and the hilarious irony of the positions taken by the opposition to the mosque made for a potent combination.
ronnieboy, actually, you’ve been beaten to the punch by, well, New York. If you’ve actually been keeping up, there’s strip clubs, bikini wax salons, restaurants serving pork, and bars galore all around the hallowed ground and the Park 51 neighborhood. Somehow, the rabid Muslims of New York have been able to survive this onslaught. It’s clearly further proof of their deviousness.
@Satyajit Wry
You’re being a troll.
Suede,
How am I being a troll? With those who disagree respectfully (see Manju and Spicey), I respond respectfully. With those who make glib remarks mocking legitimate viewpoints and tarring with guilt by association tactics to hide the intellectual bankruptcy of their positions (like lil louis brandeis above), I respond in kind. Responding to trolls does not make one a troll. But it’s up to you to determine the quality and tenor of the dialogue.
Latest in the irony department: The State Dept has sent Imam Rauf to Saudi Arabia to talk about the wonderful tradition of religious pluralism in America, and how good it is to practice Islam in such an open minded country. To (ironically) quote Glenn Reynolds, “Heh”.
Please be sensitive to Real Americans before making such statements.
suede, it’s probably not fair to call Satyajit Wry a troll. He is just concern trolling on this issue, trying to hop on any bandwagon possible, and doing his tiny bit towards tarring all Muslims as fanatics imposing Sharia law on America (see comment 56 which responds to him, where he says that mosque supporters are enabling fundamentalists and Sharia law). At the point when his bigotry is so rabid and naked, it’s better to sympathize from a distance rather than engage.
“It is bad PR for muslims, that’s for sure. The intentions to build at that location might be noble but the $100 million could be better spent elsewhere.”
No, but you see, lil louis brandeis above told us it’s about “freedom of expression” (err, he prob meant religion). So we have to build it otherwise all the freedoms will collapse in one great avalanche, because freedom of expression never has legal exceptions like defamation or fighting words or anything of that sort. No sir, all freedom, all the time, no exceptions to the rule. Otherwise, you’re a raging fundamentalist or a dhimmi–oddly enough, even if you’re a practicing muslims (don’t feel bad kids, he’ll learn).
You should really work on your insults, because calling somebody Brandeis is hardly one. As for freedom of expression, you should study SCOTUS jurisprudence on religion issues before opining.
suede, 73 is another great example of concern trolling. From the mosque being a paragon of bad taste to becoming a leading indicator of sharia law to a triumph of fundamentalism to.. now.. bad PR for muslims 🙂
I think they should build their mosque. They want it so badly it looks. The price is just going to be a lot higher than a $100 million. and not in money. Obama in his best Kerryesque “I was for the mosque before I was no-comment about it” is also going to be getting the bill for his part in this fiasco.
@Satyajit Wry
You’re being a troll by trolling this thread, and provoking people, and being condescending (“beta”?)
regarding your other comments : 1. Just because a fuselage or piece of plane fell on that building, it doesn’t reserve it and doesn’t give anyone the right to make it a Muslim-free zone. This is 2010. You’re 10 years too late to realize that this building was important to your emotional balance.
I’m amazed that a mosque brings all the bigots to the yard. …and they’re like, we’re better than ya’ll (damn right, we’re better than ya’ll)
actually suede, you’re going to have to be patient with our friend lil louis. as you can tell from his lil mixup with the free exercise clause, he has a lil trouble with nuance and fact. that’s why he refers to moderate muslims brave enough to voice concerns in spite of backlash from their own community as dhimmis (and we wonder why it’s so difficult for them. they have to deal with both their own religious right, and in Rahul’s case, the national extreme left). It’s also why he has to refer to his own comment (56) where he ignores the fact that the point is about cageprisoners which I made at (55). He was painting with broad brushstrokes regarding those who respectfully dissent with the construction proposal, so I compared him and his radical left buddies to the Amnesty debacle with cageprisoners (a group that embraces radical religious viewpoints but which amnesty shamefully celebrated as civil liberties heroes. Amnesty later suspended one of their own lawyers for calling out the irony of this). but naturally, because lil louis has trouble with facts, he conveniently had to refer you to his comment instead of mine.
“You should really work on your insults, because calling somebody Brandeis is hardly one. As for freedom of expression, you should study SCOTUS jurisprudence on religion issues before opining.”
Arey Rahu beta, i know you’re just a lil ladka and sarcasm is a difficult concept, but once you master it, you’ll realize that by referring to you as louis brandeis, I’m pointing out how you pale in comparison to one of the intellectual giants of the supreme court and a celebrated defender of civil liberty (kind of like referring to someone with no clue as sherlock). I have studied scotus jurisprudence on religion, which is why I didn’t make the elementary mistake on the free exercise clause that you did. but do come back after you’ve hit the books.
And still display pretty phenomenal ignorance both on the jurisprudence and the principle!
“You’re being a troll by trolling this thread, and provoking people, and being condescending (“beta”?)”
Who is provoking people? I had no intention of touching this thread until one commenter made a point about casualties in India due to post 9/11 terror and referred them to a professional site that actually monitors these attacks.
Any change in my tone, whether it’s condescension or anything else, is due to the specific commenter I’m responding to. Perhaps you should shine the light on your team a little too or yourself for that matter.
You’re really being insensitive here, suede. A piece of the fuselage and landing gear hitting the building is significant. That’s why it was abandoned until now. And please, you’re really not doing anyone favors by calling this a muslim-free zone. It’s highly loaded and steeped in such hyperbole that you are injuring your own credibility. If you continue with this, I think you’re amply proving who is the bigot and who isn’t.
No, as I mentioned there are many constitutionally legal activities that are often curtailed either legally or frowned upon in poor taste. I refer you to the remarks about freedom of expression and its exceptions.Â
Additionally, not everything need be proved in court. As Americans, we all have responsibilities to respect one another and respect this country. What you so insensitively dismissed as mere debris in a building is situated on what many consider sacred ground. I take it from your remarks that you probably think that you’re too sophisticated to have firefighter or police officer friends (who would express that attitude), but some of us are more broadminded in choosing our friends. And we know from them that that is what they consider this to be.
That last remarks of yours is rather childish, so I’ll just leave that one alone. But please, read that Ottawa Citizen article before responding to me again–if at all. It likely won’t convince you since you’ve dug in your heels, but at least you’ll have a chance to broaden your perspective a little.
Thread winner for comedy! Senthil and Goundamani have nothing on this character!
“And still display pretty phenomenal ignorance both on the jurisprudence and the principle!”
No sir, it is you who have managed to do that. But please, do proceed to call moderate muslims dhimmis–a more ignorant statement hath not been made on this site. kudos on the accomplishment.
“Thread winner for comedy! Senthil and Goundamani have nothing on this character!”
Arey beta, we all know here that you’re the comment clown! When it comes to hysteria, disbelief, nervous tics, twisted arguments, and malapropisms, you’re ek dum number 1!
I think you need to repeat this untruth 47 more times before it becomes true. So far, you’ve probably only gotten to a count of about 10 or so.
Malapropisms? Hmm, neither do you understand concepts like the first amendment, nor do you understand the meanings of words. As for hysteria, methinks thou doth project too much.
Anyways, I know I’ve said it in the past, and while I love to banter with loonies and bigots on the Internet, I’ll call it a day this time.
Aw heck just open a Red Hot & Blue restaurant next door to the mosque where people can sit and discuss the need to be sensitive to other communities. Invite the Imam over too. Should foster community relations.
See Rahu beta, this is you at 60:
“2. You have latched onto a couple of Muslim moderates who would rather bow to the mob as some evidence that this position is moderate.
I forgive the spectacularly unhinged nature of your comments because I realize that this is unavoidable in raging bigots. I, however, conclude with great optimism that your advocacy of dhimmitude by the minority community is one more sign of the right on all sides coming together”
Unlike you, I don’t have to refer to my own comments to discuss remarks made by the opposing commenter. But, it’s good that you’re so optimistic. After all, we’re all winners here–even you!
Wry! You are a Muslim moderate? Stop the presses!
Yo, GTFO. Getting A Clue would help.
Ahem
Oh bechara. See this is the problem when you’re operating at a third grade level–so many concepts right over your head. So let me help you out:
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/malapropism
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhimmi
So it’s rather amusing that you’re beating a retreat while posturing otherwise since you obviously have no idea how the word dhimmi is actually used. Your first amendment flub is apparent to all–but whatever makes you feel better at night–we’re all winners here after all (even you!). And your insistence on using words such as unhinged and raging only shows who hath protested too much. But you must be exhausted after all that bluster. So ja, beta. So ja.
What exactly does “area” according to those articles mean? A couple of blocks in Manhattan basically has 100 miles of Middle America worth of stuff crammed into it.
@Satyajit Wry
You’re arguments make no legal nor logical sense. You’re just spouting off responses to every comment, sometimes even two per comment. What gives?
Rahul! You’re a first amendment expert? No way!
Suede, there is both legal and logical sense to my remarks. But considering your previous performance in that last comment I don’t expect you to grasp that. If you want to have a reasoned discussion well and good. If you want to misuse words and tar legitimate dissenters, you can tread the path of our resident johny lever, showcasing his ignorance to comedic effect.
I think you meant “who showcases his ignorance to comedic effect” or “, showcasing your ignorance to comedic effect”. Instead, your sentence veered off midway and you didn’t see the incoherence, much like you miss the fundamental contradictions in your position. You’re welcome.
Ah no you see I actually did catch it after I posted, but didn’t care to correct to avoid looking like a pathetic grammar stickler in the middle of a discussion–you’ve managed to do that so nicely.
Cause you see Rahu beta, the facts are more important than the grammar. That’s why I’ve been correcting you on the first amendment and your comical use of the word dhimmitude. If only you paid more attention to substance. But so glad to help!
All this trading of insults with loons aside, this entire episode is deeply and fundamentally sad. I am not optimistic about this mosque and community center being built, given the level of animosity towards Muslims in America right now, manifested in the ability to casually insinuate (or worse) that all muslims are radicals, and have culpability for the actions of fundamentalists, with absolutely no consequences. Despite America’s self image, this level of bigotry within America is, of course, a constant phenomenon, for example, the internment and ostracism of Japanese Americans in WWII. Apart from the principled reasons to respect citizens’ right of expression, it is also tremendously inconsistent to ask for moderate Muslim Americans to participate and act as Americans, and then refuse to treat them as co-equals in the American project. Another sorry chapter.
Hey, Satyajit, btw, your childishness is quite clear in such pathetic jabs as mangling my name, and repetition of lies. I realize that calling your bluff reduces you to incoherence, but do try and get a hold of yourself.