I have two videos for your viewing pleasure today.
In the total wingnut corner we have this “patriotic” anthem by Trade Martin making the rounds in conservative circles. It reminds us why graduating from college is so important in the modern day:
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p>And in the opposing corner we have this video by Malini Sur, a surgery resident / singer songwriter in New York:
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I read a nice quote on blogger Andrew Sullivan’s site yesterday:
“[When] the [Virginia] bill for establishing religious freedom… was finally passed,… a singular proposition proved that its protection of opinion was meant to be universal. Where the preamble declares that coercion is a departure from the plan of the holy author of our religion, an amendment was proposed, by inserting the word “Jesus Christ,” so that it should read “a departure from the plan of Jesus Christ, the holy author of our religion.” The insertion was rejected by a great majority, in proof that they meant to comprehend within the mantle of its protection the Jew and the Gentile, the Christian and Mahometan, the Hindoo and infidel of every denomination.” –Thomas Jefferson: Autobiography, 1821. ME 1:67 [Link]
Well, I guess there was a good reason why the conservative school board in Texas decided to expunge Jefferson from textbooks.
It is a stupid argument. The mosque thing isn’t on “ground zero”. it is near it.
Think of it this way: The next time around, the terrorists will not attack that area for fear of collateral damage to this mosque. (I kid i kid)
The latest I heard was that a gay bar was opening right across from this mosque. http://www.towleroad.com/2010/08/greg-gutfeld-plans-to-open-a-gay-bar-next-to-ground-zero-mosque.html
Enough to make a conservative’s head splode.
Oh yea, also Malini Sur is pretty good. Listening to her other songs on youtube. some good stuff.
sadly, I’m with abhi on this one.
the only right-wing spin i can put on it is to also support the building of a gay bar next to the mosque idea that Sully references…allowing me to side with the sensitivity left here while simultaneously practicing divide and conquer on them.
oh…i see suede beat me to the gay bar idea… tho he’s looking at it from the point of view of annoying conservatives. of course, it’ll do that but more importantly it’ll force the mosque into hypocrisy and smoke out the anti-first amendment left. precisely the sort of divide and conquer tactics libertarians should be practicing.
…instead of whining about anti-discrimination laws, a losers issue. instead, make the other side discriminate goddamitt! much more clever.
Manju, yes, divide and conquer. I like the idea of Consertvative activists promoting a gay bar. Even better, why not a Gay chapel that only does gay weddings. Have right-wingers head’s explode!
I literally felt neurons implode watching that first vid. I couldn’t last more than 40sec. And pitiful how the average redneck who would LOVE that song also hates NYC…until 9/11 is mentioned, then they’re self-declared champions of NYC.
Greg Gutfeld is a douche. He won’t do a thing but talk his rather stale sh!t.
Manju, I hope you get over your self-righteous Kanye West disease soon. Call us when the shuttle lands.
In the first video, 1:19 – 1:21. Is that true or just propaganda ? Hmmm..
education doesn’t always make a difference. some of the most highly educated people i’ve met have turned out to be xenophobic and prejudiced bigots
Wait, the teabaggers have spent the last year and half proclaiming their love of the constitution, and yet they are uniformly opposed to this basic first amendment issue. And it’s the left that’s anti-first amednment? Got it.
And yes, libertarians, spend money to build to gay club wayyy downtown where the nightlife is already dead and no one will go to–and collect money from the conservative rubes as well. teabaggers will part with their money for to contribute to a gay club that will never succeed. Love it!
This. On September 10, 2001, the average out of state conservative hated NYC (along with San Francisco, Hollywood and all the bastions of liberalism) more than Al-Qaida did. Now all of a sudden, they love, are the true reps of the sensibilities of New Yorkers?
… and how do you know this nugget of “wisdom” ? Yeah and the bastions of liberalism also sneered down their nose at anyone residing in the Deep South as well, if you were to go by the films and books coming from said bastions of liberalism. But you never did see a truck load of out of staters heading for NYC et al packed with any of Nobel’s products.
On the note of the gay club opening up to build bridges,here are a couple of other organizations whose members have also had controversial relationships with the Muslim world, who should set up spaces near the center. This should definitely help build bridges.
That first video made my ears hurt, I really can’t stand that style of singing. Good quote find, Abhi.
8: If you go to this page: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chronology_of_major_terrorist_incidents_in_India and add up the deaths from every incident that one could (very dubiously) assign to having to do with fundamentalist or separatist Islamist terrorism (many of them are still open cases and of course many of them are definitely more related to Naxalite violence than Lakshar-e-Taiba style terror) I arrive at 723 deaths. Nothing to sneeze at, obviously, but a lot less than the 4298 in the poster. I can’t really think of what else they could possibly be counting, so no, in my opinion–apart from terrible framing–it also just seems to be a made up number.
Actually Saheli, your methodology is a bit off since you use only Major attacks listed on wikipedia. Sometimes it is better to let the professionals handle it. Here is a series of datasheets on terror fatalities compiled by the South Asia Terrorism Portal–a respected institution featuring professional analysts such as Ajai Sahni and K.P.S. Gill (who needs no introduction). http://www.satp.org/satporgtp/countries/india/database/indiafatalities.htm
Scroll to the very bottom. The penultimate datasheet runs from ’94-’05 and does not include left-wing (aka Naxal) violence. Scroll further up for individual breakdowns by state. 4736 security personnel alone died in JK during that period. Major attacks may get the most press, but the it is the smaller scale but more frequent attacks which register the greatest tolls in aggregate. So the post 9/11 toll in India could very well be reflected by that video if you count both major attacks outside JK (Mumbai 11/7 and 26/11) and the attacks inside JK (i.e. Kaluchak massacre of army wives and children by terrorists).
Additionally, without adding to the vitriol of an already controversial issue, I thought this article might be of interest to SM readers for a fair, yet non-bigoted, perspective. I would suggest a quick glance at the authors’ names before people jump to conclusions:
http://www.ottawacitizen.com/news/Mischief+Manhattan/3370303/story.html
There is such a thing as respectful and tolerant dissent.
That 1st video was so out there that it was funny because it was something you would see Colbert do on his show.
Anyone catch the slap to the face of the statue of liberty, at the end? That was priceless.
The building was damaged by one of the planes that hit the towers on 9-11. Daisy Khan: “And actually, the building found us, because it’s been abandoned for the last nine years. Just sort of sitting vacant. It was struck by a plane, a piece of the fuselage fell into the building, and it was shut down since then. And it’s been vacant for nine years….I think the building came to us, which goes to show that there is a symbolism there, and that there’s a divine hand in it.” Washington Post
Muslims have killed Muslims in mosques before – the Ahmadhiyas were gunned downed this year in their mosque. They are not the only ones killed in mosques by other Muslims.
Graduating college didn’t help the underwear bomber, or Times Square bomber or any of the terrorists of 9-11. In fact in countries like Britain a lot of Muslims are being radicalized in universities. There was a British man who was a radical Muslim and he talked about this in 60 minutes I think. He turned away from radicalization but he was warning that universities are where he and many others were radicalized.
Lack of education, poverty, etc as main cause Islamic extremism are biggest disinformation campaign that ever was. These causes are paraded in order to extort “Aid” from western nations, which are than (mis) appropriated by the corrupt elite of Islamic nations to enjoy their life styles. Despite being a large majority of moderate Muslims who do not support terrorism, there is no popular movement amongst these to get rid of the violent and and xenophobic clauses of Holy Qur’an which are exploited by Mullahs to inspire fanaticism and jihadism in their co-religionists.
It is not education, but the type of education. That is why I am against wasting any government money for just increasing college graduates. A lot of hate speech comes from educated people in the west and the east. All the terorrists in 9-11 were educated and many of them even lived in the west. I think one reason is people are living in echo chambers. There is hardly any true debate in the mainstream. You watch a show on CNN , they bring experts from both sides, they both say their talking points, but the debate about something is hardly brought to a conclusion. And if one of them lies or fudges the facts during the debate, the CNN host of the show does not have the knowledge or presence of mind to interject and keep them honest. So these two will probably go on another show and restart the debate from scratch. I know of many conservatives who watch ONLY Fox news and nothing else. I know a lot more liberals who watch MSNBC and FOX just to check out what the other side is saying. Hell, I know of conservatives who won’t even watch the Daily Show.
There was an even funnier “patriotic” video by some second rate singer daughter of some reverend about being an Ameriiiican posted on huffington post not too long ago.
Here is another one that has an incendiary line juxtaposed with the white house “beware of the wicked men”.
I agree with Manju on one thing , the gay bar will anger the muslims building the mosque more than the conservatives. So I would hope that the gay bar becomes a huge success.
ANd I agree with Saheli about the first video’s music. Just on music merits alone, that style grates. I hate to admit, even malini’s song was kind of boring to me. I prefer a rougher edge for protest songs. But she does have a pretty decent voice and sounds similar to the Indigo Girls.
This should be a wake up call to all religious minorities in America. Do you honestly think that these people who are protesting the right of Muslims’s to build a place of worship on private property are going to come the side of a Hindu, Buddist, Atheist, etc.?
It’s not about the right to build or that people should support bigotry on the part of some of the protesters. The position on the mosque is not an invitation to bigotry, but a reasonable perspective on the sensitivities of victims of the tragedy and their families–and really, the entire country. We all may be minorities here (whether “hindu, buddhist atheist”, etc), but we’re all also Americans. This is one of the few countries in the world that makes a genuine effort to improve the position of minorities and ensure sensitivity to their needs. But minorities also have a responsibility to be sensitive to the majority–it works both ways. Raheel Raza and Tarek Fatah’s brave and responsible article is premised on precisely such a responsibility. We need more moderates such as them to speak out to prevent the commandeering and defamation of an entire minority community due to a few fundamentalists.
[republished] I agree with Wryji. The way to treat Muslim Americans as co-equal members of society is to put them in their place, and effectively accuse them of collective culpability for the actions of radical terrorists. The only acceptable Muslims are the ones who denounce all other Muslims. Any Muslim who gets uppity should be denounced as a fundamentalist.
Why was my comment deleted?
@Newt: “Intolerant or anti-secular comments… may be deleted. Unless they’re funny. It’s all good then.” You weren’t funny at all.
your over sensitivity is showing. my comment was obviously sarcastic, and your enforcement is especially bizarre given the actually vile heartfelt comment just preceding my question. statements like “the commandeering and defamation of an entire minority community due to a few fundamentalists.” to refer to the people building the community center. anyway, your blog, your idiocy.
@20 Yup.
If the idea was to have ground zero monument which would build bridges between communities, wouldn’t it have been more effective if the muslim community had built a community centre where visitors from all backgrounds could interact and learn about the faith, or a museum highlighting the culture and history of Islam and it’s contributions to the US society, instead of a place of worship that would be used exclusively by muslims?
@Newt: your sarcasm is probably evident to all who know you, but when you are anonymous, there is very little to distinguish your comment from the vitriol that we see elsewhere on a regular basis. Sorry, mate. I’ll republish it.
Sure, why not? Why are Israel and India friends? Jews don’t like Muslims, but they like Hindus fine. Sorry.
thank you.
Actually, I was referring to terrorists and their various groups when I wrote about the commandeering of an entire community–not the mosque proponents. But what I do find offensive is your intimation that the authors of the Ottawa Citizen article are somehow “uncle toms” (a phrase which should generally be avoided) by your use of the word uppity. These are moderate people who did the right thing by speaking out as responsible members of a liberal society. Their speaking out against tone deaf proponents in one part of the spectrum and violent extremists in another is what makes them commendable. If you find that to be offensive–rather than just a differing viewpoint–I think the quality of your own politics is showing right there.
since i didn’t say it, i assume this is a consequence of your own pathologies.
Nope, more a consequence of dealing with people focused more on petty bickering rather than principled discussion.
the principle is freedom of speech and religion. since you don’t seem to understand it, there’s really nothing to discuss with you. i have no interest in bickering with you, pettily or otherwise.
it is clear that all the people who go up in arms whenever muslims talk about their feelings being offended are the first to stand up for the rights of americans who are being offended here. i am sure the offense is based on principle and values alone.
(in any case, i am not going to respond to you further. your comment trail on sepia mutiny makes it clear to me that it would be a pointless conversation. you can have the last word.)
Yes a bunch of misguided cartoons really are the equivalent of 3000 of our fellow Americans and their families. I think any right thinking person can agree that there are gradations of sensitivities. Freedom of speech and religion are important. But Raza and Fatah demonstrated that there is a silent majority of moderates willing to stand up to do the right thing and not just the Constitutionally permissable thing.
As for my comment trail on sepia, I think your own remarks under your various incarnations demonstrated what your real intentions were. But it’s good to see that you’ve since matured. There’s been some real growth here.
This is going to be a pyrrhic victory for the supporters of the mosque. When an overwhelming majority of people are opposed to the construction, the diplomatic thing to do is to shelve the project for now, or move the location. Any logical person would do that. But seeing the single minded insistence on building the mosque in a location that has upset so many people shows a selfish and deliberate intention. To press forward now will destroy any good will between the Muslim community and the rest of the country. The poll numbers speak for themselves.
there’s a few moving parts. the way i see it the central issue is the 1st amendment, the fundamental principle separating a just govt from tyranny. so those who’d use the machinery of government to stop the mosque, i think Lieberman falls into this camp, are the central villains needing to be stopped. Good for Bam for whacking them.
now i don’t think Palin quite falls into this camp, but her unhinged rhetoric raises another issue: religious tolerance and the role of leaders. one job of the ruling elite is to make sure the savages stay in line. They shouldn’t fan flames as religion is dangerous. the consensus is we treat it like the special Olympics, intentionally muting criticism of it. her behavior is irresponsible and shows she not ready for prime time. That’s why we have an adult like Bam in the Oval.
But this principle is tactical, unlike the first, and can therefore be hard to implement consistently. after all, one could ask Cordoba house to display similar sensitivity. i’m not sympathetic but opposition to the mosque is predictable among the peeps. some Jews protested a nunnery at Auschwitz if recall and the pope backed down.
now, if Satyajit is right and this was a deliberate provocation, things change ( i think this explains Bam’s recent nuance). in that case, we have a reverse cartoon-controversy. but the best warrior gets his enemy to defeat himself. the cartoonists brilliantly said, lets provoke the Muslim community (and the left) and get them to reveal their true colors. presto, the Pavlovian idiots took the bait. Violence and death threats ensued, some imans pulled a tawana brawley (inserting bigoted cartoons) and some on the left threw freedom out the window, choosing to criticize the cartoonists rather than the violent savages.
Similarly, those criticizing the mosque are on the wrong side, both on principle and tactically. if this is indeed a provocation then we should call their bluff, allow the mosque and praise it as an example of American values….freedom of religion. by opposing the mosque we’re revealing ourselves to be the way the way the terrorist say we are, not unlike some Muslims and progressive were exposed during cartoongate. don’t hand them a victory.
I am not against building the mosque. IBut at the same I dont feel like defending them either. THe majority of muslims are not extremist, that is an obvious point. However, I do think a lot of muslims had no problem with trying to ban depiction of Mohammad as was done in the Netherlands or had a problem when Comedy Central got scared and forbid Trey and Matt from depicting Mohammad in South park. So why would they not understand the symbolism of building a mosque near Ground Zero just on a visceral basis? Granted, it does not rile me up and it’s not a perfect analogy. Still, it arouses the same kind of symbolic feelings crap.
One more thing. I do think it’s tacky when Christian missionaries go to Afghanistan and try to convert muslims(not to mention, incredibly foolish). I wonder if some Christian group should threaten to kill a black muslim trying to convert a black american christian in jail as it seems to happen in the last couple of decades. Would the Taliban think it’s justified to ban such conversions of Christians to Muslims? A bunch of hypocrites.
Interesting perspective, Manju, but alas, I must disagree. Whatever the motivation of the cartoonists, the cartoons were not a memorial to the fallen or to victims of a tragedy– Ground Zero is. It literally is sacred ground to not only First Responders of NYC and the families of victims, but to Americans in general.
 A more appropriate analogy would be your Auschwitz example, as people died in truly tragic circumstances on that ground as well. Just as a patriotic monument to German culture (NOT nazism but just general German culture: beer, brats, beethoven, etc) would be wholly inappropriate at Auschwitz, victims of 9/11 and their families have similar views on the mosque. Yes, the first amendment absolutely is important. And one can support the shelving of this particular proposal and still be against the shelving of smaller proposals elsewhere in the country where genuine bigotry against minorities is taking place–it is not a zero sum issue. It is not either for all mosques or against all mosques–between A and Z are a number of different options/perspectives.
I think the problem is many well-meaning liberals look at this issue as “The Great First Amendment Battle of Our Times.” But sometimes we have to take our own paradigms, motivations, and proclivities aside and think about the greatest good for the greatest number. It is a noble thing to defend the freedoms and liberties of the genuinely oppressed and disenfranchised. But that is not the case here. It is a question of zoning mere footsteps away from one of this country’s greatest tragedies. This was a defining moment not only in the lives of victims and their families, but indeed the entire world. All civil libertarians must take that into account. After all, our liberties are protected in order to advance the cause of justice. The question we should be asking in this case is not whether something is permissable under the law, but whether something is truly just.
I repeat as I said above: A position against the Cordoba proposal is NOT an invitation to bigotry. There are many people who are against this proposal but for pluralism and freedom of worship for ALL religions.The authors of the Ottawa Citizen article represent that moderate majority themselves.
Manju @ 37
Kinda like “I disagree with what you say (do) but I will defend to death your right to say (do) it.” I am with you on this one Manju, as I am on other important stuff like Red definitely having a longer finish than Black, image be damned.
Here’s a question nobody is asking. What Islamic organization in the world has $100 million laying around to invest in a project of this magnitude? So who is funding it? The Saudi government? Some sovereign wealth fund of Islamic persuasion? And why?
[quote]Here’s a question nobody is asking. What Islamic organization in the world has $100 million laying around to invest in a project of this magnitude? So who is funding it? Some sovereign wealth fund of Islamic persuasion? And why?[/quote] A bunch of Muslim investment bankers who wanted a mosque near the financial district where they work?
Hey lupus – check out this website
http://www.park51.org/facilities.htm
Learn before you post…
DesiPride on August 15, 2010 12:42 AM · Direct link
Sure, why not? Why are Israel and India friends? Jews don’t like Muslims, but they like Hindus fine. Sorry.
Really? Then why don’t you try to immigrate to Israel? See how much they like you then.
And this is beside my point. I’m talking about the US. None of these people who are protesting against Muslim Americans’ First Amendment rights is going to stand up for you when your rights are in jeopardy. And if you think they will you’re crazy.
The Trade Martin video is no longer available. Here are the lyrics:
@14 good article, Wry. As the muslim authors say, it’s an act of “fitna” or “mischief-making”. Just because you have the right to do something, doesn’t mean it’s the right thing to do.
Do you all realize that the mosque/community-hall is NOT at ground zero? Have any of you been there? Seen how much space is around ground zero and all the types of establishments already existing there? You realize this issue is being drummed up by media since there’s no oil-spill to talk about ?
Did you hear Rush Limbaugh talk about the Hindu temple at pearl harbor? Are you really going to side with the ignorant bigots who don’t give a rats ass about your minority status?
You’re brown. And white-ass-kissing is not going to make you white.
It was a mistake. He later clarified that he meant Shinto temple. And its unfair to drag Hindus into this debate. We don’t hold any book above criticism. Our scripture contains nothing derogatory about other faiths and their followers. We do not hold that “there is no true god but Bhagwan”. Hindu diaspora has flourished because of our values of tolerance and hard work. We do not believe in creating unnecessary friction with the majority community. Unfortunately the same cannot be said of the followers of the Islamic faith.
Nah, in his apology, he pulled Buddhism into it as well (listen here http://mediamatters.org/mmtv/201008160019 ) “….lets put a Buddhist temple out there”.
Shintoism and Buddhism are not the same. As other people on twitter have clarified, there are 200,000 Japanese-Americans in Hawaii and there is probably a shrine near pearl harbor already. Clearly Rush doesn’t understand religions beyond white Christianity.
Lets not discuss the virtues of Hinduism. Its past hasn’t been all pearly white (what was it, a hundred gold per Buddhist monk’s head? maybe cheaper) Even Buddhism hasn’t had a clean past. And the differences between Asian religions and Abrahamic religions(lets not single out Islam) is primarily because of how they evolved, and their texts were written a certain way for a reason.
You’ve got to see the dark-side of religion for what it is: a control mechanism to direct a population.
Umm, suede, minority solidarity is well and good, but any decent person is also going to think about what the right thing to do is. Did you see the names of the authors of that piece in the Ottawa Citizen? Are they just majority brown nosers too or people who saw something wrong and spoke out against it? And yes, for the umpteenth time everybody here knows it’s not being built on the site of the collapsed WTC. It will be on the abandoned Burlington Coat Factory building that was struck by the landing gear and fuselage of one of the planes that hit the towers–which is why protesters were pushing for landmark status. That site too, you see, is effectively connected to the tragedy. The question is whether you knew that.
I think you need to get off your high horse and consider a position other than you own. In fact, muslim friends of mine are upset with the people proposing the mosque because it’s just building anti-muslim sentiment–and gasp–general anti-brown sentiment. They wondered, “What’s the need to build it right there? Compromise and show the religion in a positive light instead of stubbornly insisting on a site that clearly has significance for people.”
There is a book by Al Franken on Rush Limbaugh. I think people generally find that title to be accurate. Just because he opened his fat trap on this issue, doesn’t mean the logic of a position changes. Attack the position not people.
And by the way, the account in the Ashokavadana about Pushyamitra is deemed to be apocryphal and inaccurate by most scholars. You do realize that buddhist stupas were constructed and patronized during Sunga rule? The main proponent of that outdated view was the colonial “historian” W.W.Tarn who advanced that false notion so as to paint indo greeks in false light as saviors of buddhism, just as the british were propagandized to be saviors of india. Â
Buddhism was actually wiped out during the Turkish invasions in India. It was flourishing in the Northwest and Bengal (under the Palas and Senas before their defeat by the Khiljis). So before attacking the supposed ignorance of others, please examine your own.
Personally, I am very glad that this controversy has erupted. It is really nice to see the Hindu right and the American right express solidarity with the Islamic fundamentalists that community grievances ought to be privileged, and that the right to free expression is trumped by offense that people might take.