I started reading Slate’s “Dear Prudence” because it reminded me of a beloved Siouxsie Sioux cover from 1983 (and you scoffed when I said I was a Goth in high school); I continued to read Prudie because her work is quite interesting. Beyond composing her advice column, every week, Prudence (also known as Emily Yoffe) chats online via the Washington Post with people, “about their romantic, family, financial, and workplace problems”. Today’s chat included a doozy of a problem, starring an EVIL BROWN MAN!
Q. Interracial Relationships: My long-term boyfriend recently informed me that, because I’m white and he’s Indian and Muslim, I could never be a good parent to children (that don’t yet exist) that are half his. Basically, he didn’t want to continue our relationship because he believes that Indian/Muslim children should have two Indian/Muslim parents, not one white parent and one Indian/Muslim parent (although if we had children, obviously half of their genes would come from me). When I tried to counter his arguments, he called me racist and said that I would never understand. I had to break up with him, but I’m still so enraged–I would be a great mom to any children, and I seriously think he’s wrong. I think he’s afraid to talk to his parents about our relationship (they have relatively firm religious beliefs, whereas he is nonreligious but values Muslim cultural traditions), so he decided that ending things was the best plan. How should I have reacted, and how do I react now, since he still wants to be friends? (Note: This isn’t about religion. He is quite firmly against organized religion, so he would never ask me to take up any religious beliefs, and offering to do that wouldn’t help the situation, as it would fly in the face of his beliefs about organized religion.)
A: I’m afraid that when someone says he finds you unsuitable as a potential mother to his children, he wins that argument by default. You are understandably enraged at the end of this relationship. But over the long run, you will be happier that you didn’t try to force someone to merge his DNA with yours just to show you how wrong he was. For some people, when it comes time to make marriage and reproduction decisions, their spouse’s ethnic or religious background doesn’t matter. Other people find it does. Of course it’s painful that your boyfriend has now informed you he’s in this latter camp after several years together. But since you want to become a mother, you have to move on and find someone else you can spend your life with. And for your own emotional health, that may mean taking a pass on his offer of “friendship.”
Oh, dear. I don’t want to seem unsympathetic to this woman’s complaints because, sister, we’ve all been there…brown, white, black, olive…who among us hasn’t been blue over love? As someone who spent the totality of her teens convinced that she would never, ever have a boyfriend and would never, ever be loved, I will always feel for anyone whose heart is aching. It’s pure awfulness with a chaser of real pain. There’s no denying how brutal rejection is, how it reaches in to your core and eviscerates you as if you are an extra in an extra-vile video game. It hurts. It hurts so very much.Having typed all that– and though it is none of my business except to the extent that she asked a public question knowing that I might witness it as well as the answer she was seeking– I have to say that I am skeptical. Not about the veracity of her suddenly being single: certainly not. Not even about how her ex-bf is at best, a spineless, feeble wimp and at worst, a huge, festering penis. No…I’m skeptical that he’s a nasty old racist, which is what the people whom I overheard discussing this at lunch called him.
Frankly, Mr. Shankly…I think he decided that he didn’t see a future with this woman, probably for a few reasons, and so he wanted to end this relationship. Maybe he was too much of a coward to end things in a forthright fashion, so he started spouting gibberish like “White people suck at parenting!”, knowing that she’d do the needful and kick him to the curb. Maybe, as harsh as it may sound, he had an epiphany that she wasn’t worth fighting for– and a fight is what it would have taken. Maybe he loved her and during hazy, blissful moments with her, he felt his mind wander to that blurred daydream-like glimpse we each occasionally see in to our own futures– and maybe he saw her there, too…but upon later reflection, he realized that he couldn’t bear to commence the necessary negotiations, the grave discussions, the inevitable arbitration between two, disparate people which is required to decide how to get married, whether to baptize children and even, what to feed them.
I also think that her intro, “My long-term boyfriend recently informed me that, because I’m white and he’s Indian and Muslim, I could never be a good parent to children” might potentially, perhaps just a wee bit possibly be tainted by her rage– and why wouldn’t it be? We’re human, colored by emotions and shaped by bias. If we are brown, or “ethnic”, we are colored and shaped by loyalty, obligation and especially guilt. What do we owe to the people who dreamed a dream in a faraway nation, who left, who sacrificed, who suffered, who quietly worked, lived and loved like protagonists in a Jhumpa Lahiri novel, only to be crushed when we didn’t get in to Ivy League schools, and then didn’t take the MCAT or the LSAT or the GMAT and THEN refused to get married by the time we were 25? What do we owe the men and women who created us, who are frail, flawed, selfish and yet, saintly? Could anyone unlike us ever understand that gnaw within? That stubborn pull to please?
Do we ever understand it?
Here is what I like to think about this story, because at my core, I am an idealist. Someone who believes that amor vincit omnia and that good lurks everywhere, even in online advice columns and the lives of those hurt enough to seek them out…and the crazy bit of conjecture I’m about to bestow is buoyed by his desire to still be friends.
I think he may love her. I think he may love his parents more. And I think he knew that if he was an offensive caricature of a “foreigner”, if he rejected her for something she has no control over, suddenly and without warning, he would, in some bizarre way, make it easier for her to get over him, because if she was seething, she’d want nothing more than to see him leaving, even if she was confused and outraged and wronged as he left. That, oddly enough, might be easier than being honest about filial loyalty and facing question after question in a hostile, heart-broken interrogation filled with “But, WHY aren’t I good enough?”s. Sometimes, it is much easier to be a dick, to kick a puppy so that it doesn’t follow you, to turn on your lover in such spectacularly appalling fashion that she doesn’t even recognize you, let alone agonize over the incomprehensible way that you order your priorities.
But as I said, I am an idealist. A dabbler in fiction-creating. A sucker for stars crossed.
For all I or anyone else knows, she unflinchingly conveyed her story exactly as it went down…in which case, brown or not, he sucks. I hope he didn’t mean what he said about her potential as a Mother; I wonder if she was lying down at that point, her tears streaming to her ears, obscuring her hearing. That’s an excruciating way to attack a person, to insinuate that not only is she unworthy of his love and life, but that she’s also not skilled enough to nurture her own children (!), simply because she isn’t exactly like him. Such a sentiment is ugly, afflictive, the lowest sort of blow. I cringe at the thought of it.
Still, after all I’ve seen and heard…well, just know that the fanciful, “maybe”-laden explanation I offered wasn’t the product of my fecund imagination. And that while dozens, if not hundreds hate on this man for what he’s done, I am reminded of others who did similar, who are not honorable, but who are also brown…and human. They, too, need to be loved…just like everybody else does.
“I also believe that this is the year 2010 and if the family can’t accept your happiness then too bad for the family! What is more important your own happiness or making the family happy?”
If individual happiness was the only thing that mattered in the 21st century, then sacrifices wouldn’t still be made. My parents flushed their personal dreams and aspirations down the toilet to give my siblings and I an opportunity to realize ours. And I know that the fruits of this sacrifice is what makes my parents happy. As I mentioned earlier, depending on the type of person you are and your priorities, one’s individual happiness can lie in the happiness of loved ones.
The example you gave regarding your gay ex boyfriend is indeed sad, but it is a choice he’s making based on his priorities, that is, choosing not to tell his family about his sexual orientation lest they should disown him (unless he belongs to a crazy family that would physically harm him if they found out – then of course he doesn’t really have a choice). If his freedom mattered more to him than familial ties, he would come out of the closet and stay assertive about his identity. Nobody’s denying that it’s a difficult situation to be in, but it requires one to set their priorities straight and decide what matters most to them.
Reading the thread i observe certain trends 1. Majority desis either date other desis or white people. I don’t know why ‘i am not a typical desi’ kind, don’t date other races 2. Anti-intellectualism is not just a US phenomena but also US-desi phenomena. Look at all the enng/doc/bankers suck comments (I think MIA with her fashion of ‘dressing like home less people’ had made the desis think that being poor is cool 🙂 3. Metal Mickey’s thoughts are very deep. So much so that i started to read Gita to understand the meaning of Life..
“I agree with you that Indian culture is bad”
Damn, where’d all these haters come from?
metal mickey, Ivy League education has no role in forming a person’s character.it doesn’t make anyone a better person. like bipasha said it gives people a secure feeling(mostly fake ) .i know lotta people more brilliant and smarter than anyone who went to Ivy League.they have ethics and stick to it.so this kind of secure(fake?)feeling is amongst desis .no matter if you’re in india or US.it goes like this .if you’re in india “did you go to an international school?”. if you’re in US “did you go to Ivy League?” . it goes on.
Btw ANNA, you’re a fantastic writer. a good writer or journalist or politician has to face criticism and bitter comments.As you said don’t let ugly comments stop your posts on this site.
Best of luck and keep posting.
Engineers, doctors, and bankers are not ‘intellectuals.’ If anything, the distaste for that trifecta seems more like a manifestation of a dislike of practically minded people. If someone had a PhD in applied asian studies theory or something I’m sure there would be some who are all about it.
Under a bridge. Orville = Prema, an easily recognized troll who has an axe to grind against Indians.
I was in a similar situation to your sister last month when I broke up with my long-term girlfriend. God knows I loved her. I won’t go into much detail but I was in a situation where I had to choose between my dad’s happiness and her’s and I chose my dad’s. My happiness? I believe I made the easier/happier choice based on my priorities, if I may steal your lines. Sad? Yes. Was it pathetic and am I total coward? Maybe but I’ll never admit to it
I’m a little intrigued by this dichotomy where disappointing your parents in favor of a guy/girl = courage and disappointing a guy/girl in favor of your family = cowardice.
From where I’m standing it looks like you’re damned if you do and damned if you don’t. Then again, I’m the kind of guy who takes his parents’ opinions into account because of love and loyalty, not just because they’re authority figures (since Lord knows I’ve never had much use for authority.)
Lily, I never said that a person should be selfish and not care about the family. Of course, a person should care about their family. However, should a person be unhappy just to make the family happy?
Should someone marry someone they don’t love just because the community will accept this marriage?
Should I have lied to my parents, married a woman, and had kids just make them happy?
I would never do that because my life is mine. I love my parents but I told them I’m living my life for me and if they don’t approve that’s their problem not mine.
I am just someone that believes strongly that people should live their own lives on their own terms.
Of course, families will be upset about the choices of young people but it is your life not your family’s life.
“I’m a little intrigued by this dichotomy where disappointing your parents in favor of a guy/girl = courage and disappointing a guy/girl in favor of your family = cowardice”
I guess you could see this as a reflection of the strain between the individualistic ideals of the west and the collectivist ideals of ma and baba’s homeland. For instance, most of my sister’s non-brown colleagues are astonished by sister’s decision to wait for my mom’s full approval and blessings before she gets hitched, instead of just moving out and marrying the guy. On the other side of the spectrum, my traditional relatives commend my sister for being willing to ditch the guy in favor of my mom (although she hasn’t, as the war at my house has not ended and a peace treaty is yet to be signed). From what I’ve seen in the brown community, those who are willing to sacrifice their loves or their individual dreams for the sake of the family are idealized, not cowardized. I don’t see how a person making such a huge sacrifice can be deemed a coward…perhaps in the sense that they don’t have the balls to stand up for themselves, but it takes a whole lot to be able to sacrifice one’s happiness for another’s.
“Then again, I’m the kind of guy who takes his parents’ opinions into account because of love and loyalty, not just because they’re authority figures” Ditto.
I don’t understand why you should sacrifice a relationship with somebody amazing just because your parents make histrionic threats to disown you. What you all don’t understand is if it’s not the relationship, it is something else. People like that want absolute control over their children’s lives, in all areas of their lives. If you were offered a dream job, would you give it up for your parents?
And again STOP generalizing about Indians! Family honour is important to YOUR family. Not to mine. We are just as desi as you.
And you know, honour killings are done in the name of….you guessed it.
I’m sorry, I didn’t know that ‘Indian-American’ site meant that only Indian Americans were allowed to comment with their experiences. I was trying to provide a different perspective, but apparently judging by some of the responses above you don’t want to hear it. It seems that my larger point sailed over everybody’s head, that just because two people are desi doesn’t mean they have much common ground. I said shared experiences are overrated since for instance I don’t have a shared experience with most of you people since we grew up in different cultures with different sets of values. But everybody is of course missing the point again and attacking the ‘NOT AMERICAN’ part of my comment.
This site is has an open commenting policy and everybody is allowed to comment. Maybe if the moderators only want Americans to comment they should close the comments.
Also…to the commenter who mentioned it..I am not hostile. You might be reading something in comments that is not there…I don’t know how to write English the way you all write it, so measured… I just write it to the best of my capabilities. It would be sad for you if you could not see that.
I see a lot of people here talking about two things:
1.) making your family unhappy by thinking about your own happiness. 2.) making your self unhappy by thinking about your family.
My question: are those really the only two options in life? I think most Indian children (diaspora or no) tend to try to work WITHIN the system (i.e. make mom and dad happy and try to find their own happiness) rather than buck the system.
Another point… American children (i.e. non-Indian) still have families they can disappoint. Culturally speaking, parents tend to be more flexible but there are still plenty of parents out their pressurizing their children into certain careers/sports/etc.
Lastly (from my own experiences) when Indian mom or dad initially freak out (i.e. threats “You wouldn’t be part of this family anymore if you married outside the community”, dramatic statements “If you dating outside the community chachaji would just have a heart attack and DIE of shock!”) I have often seen the case is that the can also come around (in different periods of time, some take less, some more time) if they see the person their child has chosen is actually a very good person and making their child happy. Also, if their child is trying to convince them respectfully that this is the right choice for them and stick to their guns this shows their parents that they respect them and their opinions and also that they are serious about this person (the great parent hope always being… maybe this is just a fling?)… because, bottom-line, while cultural beliefs as to a child’s responsibilities to a parent differs there is one intercultural truth… (well, exclude the freaky situations) parents love their kids, and they don’t want to see them suffering.
There is also a price to be paid for obeying family honour and disobeying it. Perhaps some South Asians listen to their parents because they fear for their lives? But what kind of relationships is that to have with your parents that you fear they may murder you if you don’t marry someone they approve of?
I am serious, in Toronto a father and son were just convicted of murdering a sixteen year old girl Aqsa Parvez. Aqsa she did not want to wear the hijab or be forced into an arranged marriage by her strtict family. Aqsa’s life was pure torture. Aqsa had no bedroom door because her parents wanted to monitor her. Aqsa just wanted to be like any other Canadian teenager. She wanted a part time job, a boyfriend, she wanted to wear western clothes. Aqsa died because of the misogyny in her own family. In fact, after the father and brother were convicted of second degree murder the mother actually wrote a letter to the judge to appeal for mercy for the father and son. The mother did not care about her own daughter she said that Aqsa should of “listened” to the family. I think that case is just tragic and sad.
“When I tried to counter his arguments, he called me racist and said that I would never understand. I had to break up with him, but I’m still so enraged—I would be a great mom to any children,”
There’s a small element of truth to this unfortunately. She’s likely not a racist, but it’s probable there are certain things that she wouldn’t understand. For example, myself and 2 friends were recently stopped by the police for video’ing in a train station. No signs were posted saying that we couldnt film there. We were held for 50 minutes and likely questioned harder than a white person would have been (asked – do you have any ill will against the US ?), 50 minutes in which a real criminal could have been doing something malicious, but these cops were busy using our skin color as rationale to “check us out ” Also, after speaking to lawyer friends, I know am more aware of my rights and what I am entitled to do or say in such a situation.
A white woman (or man) would and could, never truly understand this – lets say these two had children and a similar experience happened to their child. What comfort could the mother give , what practical advice could she give ? This is just an example, never mind the actual cultural differences.
“My question: are those really the only two options in life? I think most Indian children (diaspora or no) tend to try to work WITHIN the system (i.e. make mom and dad happy and try to find their own happiness) rather than buck the system.”
I think you’re asking the wrong question here. It’s not about these being the only 2 choices. It’s about these two choices being in opposition to each other.
” American children (i.e. non-Indian) still have families they can disappoint. Culturally speaking, parents tend to be more flexible but there are still plenty of parents out their pressurizing their children into certain careers/sports/etc.”
Of course, everyone has expectations for their children and are disappointed when they’re not met. Ever see Varsity Blues where the father is gung ho about his kids playing football? But its wildly different when we’re talking about deep seated, fundamental cultural differences (ie in the way you live) And I’d imagine maybe there’s some crazy cook out there in the midwest who’d be appalled when his daughter brings home someone that doesnt play football.
In this hypothetical situation, you’d be deciding between sacrificing a relationship with “somebody amazing” OR sacrificing a relationship with your family. In either case you’re sacrificing a relationship that’s important to you.
People like that? People like what? For someone getting all up in arms about people generalizing the Desi experience you’re not too shy about making inane generalizations of your own.
Orville,
Boyfriends, husbands, girlfriends, wives will come and go, but you will always have one set of parents.
You seem to be talking mostly from a personal point of view. You are bitter over your SA boyfriend leaving you.
Your SA boyfriend was a son first and a gay man second (or even distant third). He was a son first when he was born. He was son first when he took his first steps. He was a son when he hit puberty and starting exploring his sexuality. The point being, he probably chose to honor the identity he most identifies with, and that was being a son. That’s honorable, not cowardly. Also, maybe, just maybe your SA boyfriend left you because he just wasn’t that into you.
In the past, I believe you used to hyperlink to your blog, and if I recall correctly, you are an African American male somewhere in North America, with a bit of chip on the shoulder about desis. If you are indeed Af. American, then it makes sense to me why the desi families might be a disconnect and incomprehensible to you. The facts are that 72% of Af. American children are born to single mothers (this is a fact), and the majority of those children grow up without a father present in any capacity. I am not judging. I am pointing out that fact as a way to show how desi family and commitment and devotion to family that desi culture generally inculcates can be hard for other cultures to understand.
In desi culture, regardless of religion, children touch their hands to their parents’ feet and get their blessing. This is not for show. It is because after God, parents are second most divine beings. I realize that in modern culture with the hyper-emphasis on youth culture, this idea of parents as worthy of our worship seem out of date and backward, but our family structures have survived for 1000s of years and many colonial and other disruptions, and I will take that “cowardly” value system to current fads.
Jeetey ro, beta.
Perhaps some South Asians listen to their parents because they fear for their lives?
Orville, this may be the case in some situations but I haven’t experienced this, not through me or my friends. My parents at one time may have disowned me and stopped talking to me (not anymore) but not now.
I saw the remark that Neha wrote on African-American families. There are many parts of the world, whether its Somalia or Afghanistan in which wars have decimated family structure – violence w/i families, caused b/c of loyalty, I think will cause some messed up people. And the stats for single family or dysfunctional homes will be much higher than in African-American communities. I see a lot of desi families living together, but they SHOULD be divorced IMO, and they only stay together b/c of saving face.
There are positive things about this. The sense of responsibility and loyalty to family can carry you through difficult times and help form your own healthy families. And the negative is that, “face” and feelings of tribal loyalties actual decimate any respect for family members and create individuals who are severely messed up and end up abusing their spouses and families when they form their own families. I just try and take the best from any culture; as the Greeks said, it’s finding the happy medium, and not wafting into extremes.
People like that? People like what? For someone getting all up in arms about people generalizing the Desi experience you’re not too shy about making inane generalizations of your own. There is a gentle way to disagree with your loved ones. But a parent saying that they will die if a child does something which is by the way perfectly legal by law? Something as radical as choosing one’s spouse? They sound very abusive to my ears. People who want to control so badly the spouse the child chooses will also want to control all other aspects of a child’s happiness. I’m sorry if you disagree with that. What will you do if your parent says you can’t choose that dream study? The dream job? What if everything that is fulfilling to you personally would make your parents unhappy (so they claim)? You haven’t answered these questions. It’s nice that you are so close to your family that you always consult them on important decisions, and I mean that sincerely. However there is a difference between considering their opinions and letting your life being controlled by them. I think you’re setting up a strawman by saying that some folks here are arguing against the former, when they are really arguing against the latter.
And to be honest, I don’t know what such parents would be so afraid of. This ‘keeping our cultural traditions’ is a farce in my opinion; there are over 1 billion Indians out there. We are hardly dying out. I think people who throw around ‘preserving cultural traditions’ tend to have an over-inflated sense of self – the future of India hardly depends on them.
And again, not all desis have deep and meaningful bonds with their families. This might shock some people but desis are just like all other people in the world – some of them are extremely close to their family. And some of us are not, because some of our relatives are extremely obnoxious, and they live 1000s of kilometers away to boot, so consulting them on any life decisions would be worthless.
In desi culture, regardless of religion, children touch their hands to their parents’ feet and get their blessing.
You’re definitely wrong here. This is a regional tradition, and not at all customary where my family is from.
Parents are important in Indian culture. As they are in Swedish culture, and Russian, and Ghanian, and Lebanese, and Japanese, and Australian aboriginal…you get the idea?
Neha you clearly are the one that is bitter and a racist. First, you make reckless and immature generalizations about me and my cultural background.
Is there a problem in the black community with fathers not standing up and not helping raising their children of course there is! I would never deny this.
You obviously know nothing about the black community and your attempts to present us as inferior just prove your racism and prejudice.
However, I will say this, the black women I know would never ever allow the men in their lives to control them.
You don`t know me that well and your generalizations about my blackness just illustrates your obvious ignorance about the African Diaspora. First, I am not an African American I am a black Canadian and and yes there is a difference there. Second, just because I am black person the African American experience is not my experience because I am black of Caribbean heritage. My Caribbean experience and heritage is very different from the African American experience. Everyone I know from friends and family in Toronto have been raised in a nuclear family. Your generalzations about me are not only racist but also deleterious. Third, my parents have been married for thirty four years and they are happily married and still together.
In relation to the South Asian ex boyfriend you don
t know him and you dont know the relationship we had. We are no longer together but, one of the things I do recall was the constant strain the family honour had on his life it suffocated him. He made the decision that he will be held prisoner by the homophobic ideals of his parents.He constantly complained to me that his family was ruining his life making him unhappy and depressed. I recall getting phone calls from him at 2:00am in the morning because he was crying worrying how he deal with his parents. He was so fearful about coming out because he believes his parents would disown him.
He’s just not that into you? There’s an explanation for that.
And then the evil westerners stole this tradition from us and called it the “High Five”. Respeck, people. Respeck.
Oh no! Someone, somewhere might not adhere to the norm! This does not substantially diminish the descriptive value of a valid generalization.
No, not really. Because here we’re talking about making relative comparisons about how seriously people take the bond. And saying Indian family bonds are exceptionally tight does not imply that Ghanaian or Lebanese bonds are not. Where is it written that saying P = Q automatically means nothing else can be?
Nutty hypotheticals aren’t reality. You’re painting a world where parents are control freaks for the sake of being control freaks rather than because they actually care about your long-term happiness and don’t want you to make boneheaded decisions. Their judgments might be right or wrong, but trying to make it seem like they just get off on telling people what to do is infantile. Have you ever tried standing in their shoes?
Again with this idea that because exceptions exist rules cannot. I don’t get it. Consider a normal distribution. Just because there are people scattered in various places around the chart does not change the fact that, by and large, different populations tend to crest at different pointst. Just because the green curve intersects with the yellow curve does not make them the same.
Being as how you just kicked your way into this discussion with the statement: “The South Asian culture is patriarchial, anti gay, misogynist and very conservative. Why would this white woman want to get involved in this South Asian culture? The lady in this story is better off marrying a white man or someone that has western beliefs and truly loves her and is willing to fight for her”, I’m not entirely sure you have a leg to stand on complaining about immature and reckless generalizations.
How fortunate for those White, Black, Asian, and Hispanic gays that they never had to worry about their families disapproving of their lifestyles. . .
Orville,
Your blog in the past was one long bitter racist rant full of generalizations, so pot/kettle whatever.
You are coming into this thread and lecturing desis, calling those of us who choose to honor our parents as pathetic and sad (like your ex). You are incredibly judgmental, and for someone who says that people should lead their own lives, you are very comfortable lecturing desis on how the only legitimate path is your way of doing things, which is apparently along the lines of:
Thank you for the lecture, Prof. Obviously and Stereotypically Values Western Individualism. Can you use less cliched me-me-me terms to express your unique and obviously so much better (/snark) values?
Nowhere in your comments here is there is an attempt to understand another narrative, another culture or voice, to attempt to even acknowledge any legitimacy to desi parental dynamics. Your starting point for your monologue is that desi parents are oppressive and desi kids are pathetic and allow their parents to control them. You are bitter about your ex, and every time you have mentioned him, you have qualified him as choosing to be held prisoner (negative connotation) and to be pathetic. And you wonder why your ex may not have chosen to fight to be with you?
Oh, is that another one of your supposedly non-racist zingers at desi women? Are we desi women all pathetic and sad because we allow men to control us?
Next time someone calls you at 2 am for any reason, try to be less judgmental and more welcoming.
Don’t want to know, either. Have some respect for your ex and keep information about his calling you at 2 am to yourself. Well you’re at it, keep your generalizations about pathetic desi women, children, and murdering parents, and despotic culture to yourself as well. I recommend that you not inflict your self-satisfied, arrogant masturbation on us pathetic selves.
Whenever I (white girl) used to ask my dad for advice on something as a teenager, he always demurred and said “You and your brother have to learn to make your own mistakes.” He also said recently that the idea that a person has children expecting a particular outcome is absurd — he was like, “Parents are there to give children unconditional love. The children don’t OWE you anything in return, it’s not about that.”
Yet I have a decently close (if internationally long-distance) relationship with my family. My brown hubby, on the other hand, ran away from home when he was 18 after years of emotional and physical abuse and has very little contact with his family, having not bought into the whole ‘shame/honor’ thing. There are no universals when it comes to families, there’s a million variations that always contradict the stereotypes.
Why don`t you jump in a lake Neha. You complain about me stereotyping South Asians yet you have no problem stereotyping black people.
People on this thread that are South Asian have said there is indeed generalzing going around to suggest all South Asians agree with the collective mentality.
I have spoken to many South Asians and they have complained that their parents are ruining their lives. They are caught between two cultures the west and the east.
You need to look into the mirror at your own reflection before
you pick on the black community. , I am not lecturing South Asians Neha I am providing my opinion. If anyone is giving a lecture it is you Neha. First, you made inaccurate comments about my cultural background. Next, you stereotype the black community. Third, you talk about my love life yet you are not me and don`t know the full story.
There’s more than one explantion., Rahul.
I think Metal Mickey has a point though–if we were all in India right now, I don’t think we’d ever consciously, in our daily lives (so not in academic discussions), act with this idea that we share a common desi-ness with our neighbours. I mean, I grew up in India, and I don’t think we ever entertained any feelings of benevolence at our “sworn enemies” on the grounds of our common desi-ness.
It’s only when I came here that I began to have this expectation that whenever I met a brown person, we would automatically have something in common based on our desiness, and yet, what a ridiculous sentiment that would be if I were still in India. Is a Canadian-Indian Indian or Canadian? Should I wait for the other person to identify himself as such, or do I take the intitiative based on this idea of a common desiness? I still haven’t figured this one out, although through experience, I’ve become far more reticent. Identity is hard enough to figure out without having other people slap one on you all the time. Ironically, in this aspect, IMO, it’s easier to be an individual in India than in North America. At least in cosmopolitan circles, no one thinks they have you all figured out based on the colour of your skin or your last name (but maybe the school you went to or where you live!)
India, let alone the diaspora, is such an incredibly diverse country. And as we all know, even in India, we still haven’t figured out what it is that keeps us together (besides inertia). So why should we suddenly feel those bonds when we leave? Yes, some of us do feel kinship, but only to a certain extent and with certain people of our ethnicity. And some of us don’t. And it’s perfectly legitimate to ask whether those bonds that we share with our co-ethnics have more to do with similar class, caste, socio-economic backgrounds rather than this nebulous idea of “desiness.”
Maybe there is some biological imperative to mate with people who at the very least look like you? Just throwing this out there–really I have no clue. But MM certainly adds something to the discussion.
Why would that be ridiculous? This sentiment is the basis behind the concept of a “nation.” If we didn’t have anything in common with each other that set us apart from others there wouldn’t be any point in having national borders. When Americans go abroad they usually have an expat community that they socialize with there. When I was travelling through Europe it was always refreshing to run into a fellow American or a fellow Desi every now and then. Familiarity in a strange land can be nice.
I don’t think anyone is arguing that all of us with a desi background living in the diaspora are all the same and have the same sort of experiances.. However there are certainly things that I would have in common with someone else who’s family were from India and who grew up in the west that i might not have with someone from a different ethnic background.
At the same time I think the stereotyping goes both ways, my parents are traditional but have never insisted that i can’t date or marry someone not Indian.. And among friends and family there have been several cross cultural marriages and the families have accepted it. This idea that all desi families are just trying to sadistically control their offspring is not borne out by my experiance. I’m not saying that those families don’t exisit but i would dispute that they are the norm.
Well done Neha, Orville, and yes, Mickey. You’ve turned this thread from a place where people discussed things respectfully and openly to another forum for mudslinging, stereotyping, and general hostility. Please take your personal issues elsewhere. This is why people like Anna who have genuinely interesting things to say think twice before posting.
passerby has a point. especially when discussing something as fraught and sensitive as how and whom one loves, we should be more thoughtful, not less. for everyone’s sake– blogger, commenter, lurker alike.
@obviouslyananamous
I think I fit your criteria of desi guy, well that is if you are willing to put up with hip hop and Hindi music and me being a doctor….lol. Hey all of us who have taken up stereotypical professions don’t necessairly become stereotypical.
^Lol I can’t spell for shit on my itouch. I meant to address my comment to “obviously anonymous”. Anyways, i’m having a hard time finding a desi girl that I can hold conversations with for hours at a time, whether it be religion, politics, current events, pop culture, the deep exiestential meaning of life, etc and at the same time be loving, funny, down to earth, etc. Almost every girl I’ve come across, including my ex, has ended up in heartbreak. I swear, what is the deal with the majority of desi girls these days?.. All they wanna talk about is who f’ed who at so and so’s party and how rich they want their next bf, hubby, whatever to be. Come on…!! Read a newspaper at least so I can have a starting point for a conversation….
To be fair, that’s par for the XX course.
Oh no! Someone, somewhere might not adhere to the norm! This does not substantially diminish the descriptive value of a valid generalization. Sigh. You do not seem to understand that different areas in India have different traditions. Maybe in Uttar Pradesh that is the tradition to touch your parents feet. In Tamil Nadu, it is most definitely not. Just like, it would be wrong to state that Karva Chauth is a tradition all Indians practice, because it is not – it is only practiced in North India. Unless you think that the people of North India can speak for the rest of India when it comes to tradition and culture. And, well,there are quite a few people who would take issue with that.
Well done Neha, Orville, and yes, Mickey. You’ve turned this thread from a place where people discussed things respectfully and openly to another forum for mudslinging, stereotyping, and general hostility. Please take your personal issues elsewhere. This is why people like Anna who have genuinely interesting things to say think twice before posting. Interesting that you bring up ‘personal issues’ when that is what this whole thread is about, personal relationship issues! This is a public forum, and anybody can respond how they like as long as it falls within the rules. I tried to give respectful constructive opinions. At least I have tried to contribute a grain, even though my English is limited compared to the rest of you, who are native speakers. I haven’t seen you say anything constructive so far.
I am reading through and thinking about the two different family structures basically getting compared here.. one being the “Indian family” the other, the “American family”.
For about three years now I have had experience dealing with both (my family, my fiance’s family). Throughout this time, I can definitely say that there are BOTH pluses and minuses to both systems. Of course both sides are going to be generalized, and I acknowledge that not all families on either side will fit the stereotype. Secondly, I am talking from MY experience with two families (and attempting to generalize based on other families I have known) When I talk about child/parents, I am referring to adult children. Pluses of the Indian Family: 1.) Closeness- family cares about where you are/what’s going on. 2.) in Distance- many phone calls per week is expected. 3.) If you need/want to go live at home, (i.e. to save money, if you are having a hard time, if you get a job there, if you just want to be close to family, just want to visit) it’s not just ok, it’s like “yay! my baby is home!” 4.) You feel part of something greater than yourself– you have responsibilities to a group 5.) Family gives up a lot to children to help them succeed.
Minuses of the Indian Family: 1.) A lot of focus on your “success” – conversations often about “how was your exam, how is your class, when are you going to get a job?” 2.) same as number 2 above… (haha… both good and bad.. depending) 3.) kids feel a lot of PRESSURE to succeed in the way the parents desire and conform to parents plans for their future and parents use guilt, threats, and dramatic emotional reactions to get their child to conform. 4.) Kids do not (if the families I know) feel ok telling their parents openly about their lives, and often concoct stories or change details to meet parents liking (I.e. Mom: I called last night at at but you were not at home, where were you?” Adult Child: (was really out watching a film with friends) “Oh, I was at the library all evening Mom, you know they don’t allow phones on in there”
Pluses of American Family: 1.) Parents want kids to find their talents and succeed at that (whatever it may be… mostly). 2.) Parents assume children will make mistakes/try something new/date someone they might not marry, and that no life-long catastrophe will result from said child’s mistake/experimentation (hopefully). 3.) Parents encourage kids to be independent and make their own decisions. 4.) Parents give children a message of unconditional love (fear of being disowned is not a common American child fear) Kids generally can talk openly with their parents about their life (Mom: how was your weekend? Kid: Ok, I went on a date on Saturday, but it didn’t go so well… so I ditched him and got a few drinks with Sally instead.”) 5.) Family gives up a lot to help their child succeed.
Minuses of American Family 1.) Child and Parents both may not expect to call each other regularly, and hence may not know when important/difficult times are happening in each others lives. 2.) Idea of Independence may make child feel lonely, uncared for in adulthood (You’re an adult now, you don’t need us anymore sort of idea). Child may WISH for more guidance and help in career decision making etc that would be considered unacceptable. 3.) Child may not want to “burden” family with troubles or concerns, do not always feel like family unit is something to fall back on. (feel they must bear their problems alone) 4.) Child sees parents home as PARENTS home, not their own– if child Must move home for financial/emotional (etc) reasons, child will feel embarrassed about this lack of independence and also feel they are burdening bothering parents who fully expected empty nest at this point. A visit from child will be welcome– to a point.
LinZi@141: About the best thing I ever read in Sepia Mutiny
Well said Neha.
Dude. I was born in Madras. While most urbanized, educated folks throughout the country don’t practice the custom anymore, that doesn’t mean it’s not a custom.
touching parents and teachers feet is a custom in South India too. especially on marriage occasions.
Well, I’d say you failed. It’s likely that you may just have a sharp tongue in general, but you’ve been utterly insensitive to many people who have posted on this thread. This IS a sensitive subject for a number of reasons, but you seem to simply want to intellectualize it to death with more just a touch of hostility. I just recoil when I see people who are so disconnected from their own feelings that they are unable to extend empathy to others.
“5.) Family gives up a lot to help their child succeed.”
Disagree.
lol – i do agree on this point of yours. from a personal standpoint, i also think i am completely capable of passing on said traditions to any potential children, without the help of a desi partner, particularly since there is the possibility that not every potential indian partner (US-raised or not)will know enough about these traditions to pass them on.
i could say the same thing about plenty of brown guys i know (albeit with different obsessions), but i also know there are plenty who fall outside that realm. just because you’re not meeting the kind of desi girls you want to meet does not mean they do not exist.
this likely has more to do with the fact that your parents balanced their laissez-faire attitude with unconditional love. as much as i think many of these generalizations are applicable to some extent, thanks to you and others for pointing out the variations that do exist.
Elaborate?
Empathy should go all ways