I started reading Slate’s “Dear Prudence” because it reminded me of a beloved Siouxsie Sioux cover from 1983 (and you scoffed when I said I was a Goth in high school); I continued to read Prudie because her work is quite interesting. Beyond composing her advice column, every week, Prudence (also known as Emily Yoffe) chats online via the Washington Post with people, “about their romantic, family, financial, and workplace problems”. Today’s chat included a doozy of a problem, starring an EVIL BROWN MAN!
Q. Interracial Relationships: My long-term boyfriend recently informed me that, because I’m white and he’s Indian and Muslim, I could never be a good parent to children (that don’t yet exist) that are half his. Basically, he didn’t want to continue our relationship because he believes that Indian/Muslim children should have two Indian/Muslim parents, not one white parent and one Indian/Muslim parent (although if we had children, obviously half of their genes would come from me). When I tried to counter his arguments, he called me racist and said that I would never understand. I had to break up with him, but I’m still so enraged–I would be a great mom to any children, and I seriously think he’s wrong. I think he’s afraid to talk to his parents about our relationship (they have relatively firm religious beliefs, whereas he is nonreligious but values Muslim cultural traditions), so he decided that ending things was the best plan. How should I have reacted, and how do I react now, since he still wants to be friends? (Note: This isn’t about religion. He is quite firmly against organized religion, so he would never ask me to take up any religious beliefs, and offering to do that wouldn’t help the situation, as it would fly in the face of his beliefs about organized religion.)
A: I’m afraid that when someone says he finds you unsuitable as a potential mother to his children, he wins that argument by default. You are understandably enraged at the end of this relationship. But over the long run, you will be happier that you didn’t try to force someone to merge his DNA with yours just to show you how wrong he was. For some people, when it comes time to make marriage and reproduction decisions, their spouse’s ethnic or religious background doesn’t matter. Other people find it does. Of course it’s painful that your boyfriend has now informed you he’s in this latter camp after several years together. But since you want to become a mother, you have to move on and find someone else you can spend your life with. And for your own emotional health, that may mean taking a pass on his offer of “friendship.”
Oh, dear. I don’t want to seem unsympathetic to this woman’s complaints because, sister, we’ve all been there…brown, white, black, olive…who among us hasn’t been blue over love? As someone who spent the totality of her teens convinced that she would never, ever have a boyfriend and would never, ever be loved, I will always feel for anyone whose heart is aching. It’s pure awfulness with a chaser of real pain. There’s no denying how brutal rejection is, how it reaches in to your core and eviscerates you as if you are an extra in an extra-vile video game. It hurts. It hurts so very much.Having typed all that– and though it is none of my business except to the extent that she asked a public question knowing that I might witness it as well as the answer she was seeking– I have to say that I am skeptical. Not about the veracity of her suddenly being single: certainly not. Not even about how her ex-bf is at best, a spineless, feeble wimp and at worst, a huge, festering penis. No…I’m skeptical that he’s a nasty old racist, which is what the people whom I overheard discussing this at lunch called him.
Frankly, Mr. Shankly…I think he decided that he didn’t see a future with this woman, probably for a few reasons, and so he wanted to end this relationship. Maybe he was too much of a coward to end things in a forthright fashion, so he started spouting gibberish like “White people suck at parenting!”, knowing that she’d do the needful and kick him to the curb. Maybe, as harsh as it may sound, he had an epiphany that she wasn’t worth fighting for– and a fight is what it would have taken. Maybe he loved her and during hazy, blissful moments with her, he felt his mind wander to that blurred daydream-like glimpse we each occasionally see in to our own futures– and maybe he saw her there, too…but upon later reflection, he realized that he couldn’t bear to commence the necessary negotiations, the grave discussions, the inevitable arbitration between two, disparate people which is required to decide how to get married, whether to baptize children and even, what to feed them.
I also think that her intro, “My long-term boyfriend recently informed me that, because I’m white and he’s Indian and Muslim, I could never be a good parent to children” might potentially, perhaps just a wee bit possibly be tainted by her rage– and why wouldn’t it be? We’re human, colored by emotions and shaped by bias. If we are brown, or “ethnic”, we are colored and shaped by loyalty, obligation and especially guilt. What do we owe to the people who dreamed a dream in a faraway nation, who left, who sacrificed, who suffered, who quietly worked, lived and loved like protagonists in a Jhumpa Lahiri novel, only to be crushed when we didn’t get in to Ivy League schools, and then didn’t take the MCAT or the LSAT or the GMAT and THEN refused to get married by the time we were 25? What do we owe the men and women who created us, who are frail, flawed, selfish and yet, saintly? Could anyone unlike us ever understand that gnaw within? That stubborn pull to please?
Do we ever understand it?
Here is what I like to think about this story, because at my core, I am an idealist. Someone who believes that amor vincit omnia and that good lurks everywhere, even in online advice columns and the lives of those hurt enough to seek them out…and the crazy bit of conjecture I’m about to bestow is buoyed by his desire to still be friends.
I think he may love her. I think he may love his parents more. And I think he knew that if he was an offensive caricature of a “foreigner”, if he rejected her for something she has no control over, suddenly and without warning, he would, in some bizarre way, make it easier for her to get over him, because if she was seething, she’d want nothing more than to see him leaving, even if she was confused and outraged and wronged as he left. That, oddly enough, might be easier than being honest about filial loyalty and facing question after question in a hostile, heart-broken interrogation filled with “But, WHY aren’t I good enough?”s. Sometimes, it is much easier to be a dick, to kick a puppy so that it doesn’t follow you, to turn on your lover in such spectacularly appalling fashion that she doesn’t even recognize you, let alone agonize over the incomprehensible way that you order your priorities.
But as I said, I am an idealist. A dabbler in fiction-creating. A sucker for stars crossed.
For all I or anyone else knows, she unflinchingly conveyed her story exactly as it went down…in which case, brown or not, he sucks. I hope he didn’t mean what he said about her potential as a Mother; I wonder if she was lying down at that point, her tears streaming to her ears, obscuring her hearing. That’s an excruciating way to attack a person, to insinuate that not only is she unworthy of his love and life, but that she’s also not skilled enough to nurture her own children (!), simply because she isn’t exactly like him. Such a sentiment is ugly, afflictive, the lowest sort of blow. I cringe at the thought of it.
Still, after all I’ve seen and heard…well, just know that the fanciful, “maybe”-laden explanation I offered wasn’t the product of my fecund imagination. And that while dozens, if not hundreds hate on this man for what he’s done, I am reminded of others who did similar, who are not honorable, but who are also brown…and human. They, too, need to be loved…just like everybody else does.
obviously anonymous, shaadi.com isnt the best way for a guy to put his best foot forward. Keep in mind that how well a guy is doing financially, his degrees, etc are what most guys are going to put on that site to get a girls attention. Lets be honest, putting down that you are a nice guy is pretty much going to get you skipped over by most indian girls on shaadi.com.
Indian guys that you will like and get along with really dont do anything particularly indian. Look for where you would normally meet a nice guy and I am sure you will find one of the indian variety.
Haha
Oh is that all?
So basically he soiled his royal oats and he is out like Bush.
metal mickey, since i am guessing your comment was also for me since i stated my desire to meeting a good indian girl was basically mission impossible. maybe i can fill you in on why dating indian has some advantages for me.
the main reason is that no matter how much they try or say, you really cant fake being Indian or Indian American. The experiences we share are really ours alone. I’ve met countless indian people who can spout almost word for word in unison their feelings their parents have about dating, school, marriage and other indian kids. We have a unique bond thats hard to explain to people that arent indian. Its hard to explain why your parent calls you 2 times a day or why you are so nice and accomodating to that older indian person you work with. With an indian significant other things these things and many others are much easier. at least they are for me.
yup.
sorry i meant to say
Yoga Fire on June 16, 2010 5:51 PM · Direct link Look for where you would normally meet a nice guy and I am sure you will find one of the indian variety. Oh is that all?
yup, thats all.
Maybe some people want to share those commonalities and some most definitely don’t though. That’s different than the old saw that I’d like to date a desi but can’t find one that’s xyz. That kind of thing is kinda dumb.
Suman, rest assured I’ve looked around at bookstores, rallies, music festivals, coffee shops, and the like…and nope, no indian men here. Or, there are, but they are there with their progressive white girlfriends. Again, this may have a lot to do with the fact that I’m not in a city. Maybe it would be different if I were.
And I think I’ve given off the impression that my current relationship doesn’t matter to me. It sure as hell does. This is just a place where I can speak out loud the thoughts that nobody else would understand.
Why is this dumb?
Not buying it.
This has been a candid discussion where people have opened up about vulnerable things; while what you wrote may be mild, I’d hate to think of anyone feeling uncomfortable about expressing themselves for fear of their experience being labeled “dumb”. Just something to think about. What’s dumb to you is real to someone else.
Because its using the supposed characteristics of others to explain individual behavior. Most people end up dating who they prefer if they are eligible themselves. If someone dates 5 people from Chile they may say they are actually really into Bolivians who like x but can’t find anyone like that, but its possible they like people from Chile
obviously anonymous.
I dont think you are giving off the impression that you dont care about your current relationship. I just think you are trying to find whats right for you. like i said, there are advantages to dating desi’s i think. but like preferencesbrown said, some people actively avoid it.
to each their own.
Point noted. It was meant to be mild.
d.Jain, crest and obviously anonymous– thank you, especially you latter two, for such kind words. I’m not worthy, seriously. But I’ll receive such sweetness gratefully and be mindful of how lucky I am to read it.
Yes. This is exactly that place. That is why we created it. And thank you for putting yourself out there, and “saying” such things out loud. Not all of us are judging you. People in places like NYC, Chicago, Houston or Silicon Valley sometimes forget that while they have unending brown buffets, some of us have that one, lame, bootleg stall in the food court which serves inedible slop. I used to live in a place like that; I didn’t have the luxury of finding my alterna-Desi there, either. Chin up. 🙂
I wish I could respond to more comments but I have an event that I’m speaking at/moderating to get to. I only mention that for this reason: if any of you here in DC are coming, please don’t be shy. I’d love to meet you. 🙂 I’m not kidding. I’ll need a friendly face after I humiliate myself by ulti-ing on the Ambassador’s wife. What a day to get food poisoning…UGH.
Judging goes on in a lot of directions. My comments were made with the assumption a reply from another perspective would be fine. Just another rxn which some of those reading might legitimately have to these sentiments, which aren’t unusual
Cause inasmuch as we can stereotype anything, white people hate or are indifferent to their families
what bullshit.
love is a fraught and complicated thing. though we should note that whatever general trends there are, it is also often something not easily predictable “on paper,” and two very similar people may also have totally different experiences. one of the reasons i began to read this website is because my friends vinod v. and manish v. with whom i share a lot of values and a generational/ethnic background had a very different perspective on their lives growing up the states, and how they related to the majority culture. in particular in the area of romance. perhaps it is a matter of personality differences, or just random acts of life history which shape one’s perspective, but i came to the conclusion that their truths arrived at via their experiences and perceptions did not invalidate my own despite the fact that their own truths were in pretty stark conflict with my own in some ways.
i have a very difficult time understanding in an intuitive manner what people talk about when they argue for the importance of racial/ethnic commonality in one’s partner (religion is different for me, as it’s so explicitly ideological and many people feel it to be a fundamental or foundational aspect of their self). but i wish everyone who feels this way the best in their own life and their own choices, and the main thing i ask in return is not to project one’s own intuitive responses and understandings to other people (speaking as someone who has found the person who they want to spend the rest of their life with, and that person is not of the same ethnic/racial background, and that issue has basically never come up as problematic in our relationship [the fact that she is an atheist, as i am, was more of an issue for my parents than her ethnicity]).
“I always felt like because i wasnt a doctor or making at least 6 figures, I wasnt good enough for them. “
Suman how true! Imagine how it was for me in my early twenties when I first started playing poker for a living. The hatred from the aunties was nearly palpable in the community. And their daughters were even worse! Then I won a few tournaments, bought a red Italian car a doctor could never afford…then magically it seemed my status went up.
Let’s flip this baby like a house during the Florida real-estate boom, yo:
**If we are brown, or “ethnicâ€, we are colored and shaped by loyalty, obligation and especially guilt.
FAIR ENOUGH. But about white people who feel, “if we are WHITE, we are colored and shaped by loyalty, obligation and especially guilt” ???
** “What do we owe to the people who dreamed a dream in a faraway nation, who left, who sacrificed, who suffered, who quietly worked, lived and loved……..”
FAIR ENOUGH. But how do you feel about adult children of WHITE parents who ask themselves similar questions when faced with whether or not to marry their NON-WHITE partners?
There are some WHITE people in the United States who are kind of lamenting their loss of demographic influence, culture, way of life, whatever-they-call-it, as the United States slowly but surely becomes more, well, BROWN – of varying shades, varieties, ethnic and cultural backgrounds.
I’ve not really sympathized with their views but this particular entry gets me thinking – do THEY indeed have a point?
Something to ponder, doncha think?……..
Also, not all desi doctors are “stereotypical” desi doctors. Don’t know about the lawyers.
my goodness, this is the friendliest, warmest, most loving SM comments thread I’ve read in a long while! I feel so fuzzy right now! In any case, my own personal experience with this tells me that it’s based entirely on an individual basis. I broke up with my first white boyfriend because of his lack of understanding of desi culture, and it was probably more because he had a set of different experiences to relate to. The current one, who I am engaged to is probably more brown than I am in terms of ideals for family and relationships, and he’s sixth generation canadian. Sure, dating a white person means your children may miss out on the intricacies of 1st or 2nd gen life, but if you decide to make it work, the opportunity is always there.
Ok this is one I had to come out of the woodwork for.
Obviously_Anon – I am actually in the exact opposite position you are in. I am married to a white guy (Its been years, we have a 5 year old etc). And he has NEVER been particularly interested in my Indianess. Mind you I am very active in the Indian community since my son was born (we live in a smallish white-bread city and the rest of my family are in other places) because I don’t want him to be unaware of his Indian-ness. We eat lots of Indian food and we all have indian clothes and get desi-ed up once every couple of months to go to shingdigs etc. He’s very supportive of my involvement, and we participate wuite actively and now have quite a few indian friends.
But my hubby has never particularly been turned on by oh, let say, me in a Sari. He doesn’t care about my skin colour or wierd ‘indian’ habits, to him I am just me. I should say that I have lived in India for 25 years growing up so I have a LOT of these’habits’. This is of course very gratifying in one way – he loves me for ‘ME’ and when the novelty wears off, he won’t get bored. On the other hand – come on! I am a bit baffled about this – I mean it is an essential part of me so its impossible to ignore, there must be SOMETHING there right?
Sorry for the Wall o text… just putting in the other other side of the coin 🙂
suman:
the main reason is that no matter how much they try or say, you really cant fake being Indian or Indian American. The experiences we share are really ours alone. I’ve met countless indian people who can spout almost word for word in unison their feelings their parents have about dating, school, marriage and other indian kids. We have a unique bond thats hard to explain to people that arent indian. Its hard to explain why your parent calls you 2 times a day or why you are so nice and accomodating to that older indian person you work with. With an indian significant other things these things and many others are much easier. at least they are for me.
I’m sorry, but what? What is this nebulous but unique bond that other desis share? I must clearly by an awful desi then, because I don’t automatically defer to older Indians – how I treat them depends on how douchy they are or are not. And I get cranky if my parents call me more than once a week. I really dislike this idea that we Indians are somehow ‘better’ or ‘unique’ because SOME Indians share these particular traits. Some of the Indians I know are some of the most narrow-minded people I know, is that what you want? I don’t mean to be snarky. I really just don’t understand how you can claim some of these matters are ‘Indian qualities’ or whatever when some of us don’t share them. It makes people feel left out, you know?
Oh, and some of us don’t even have a sloppy food stall to choose from, to extend ANNA’s metaphor.Try growing up in a place like Le Havre, or Regensburg, or Basel, or Stockholm. I’m sorry, but most of you won’t survive even a month there what with all your ‘us desis are so special and unique’. If anything, I’ve learned that desis are EXACTLY like everybody else in the world.
If it didn’t exist, neither would this website.
Apparently, there is a cheap pill for treating rejection — Tylenol.
Hello friends,
I have seen, and I have experienced, goris leaving their SOs. I have seen a female very close to me who dated a guy for 5 years, and then they got married for 4 years. The guy was a Catholic, and the girl was born into a Hindu family. She converted and went to mass, to Guatamala for missionary work, and they even had a Catholic ceremony for their wedding as the ‘official wedding’. One day on their 4th year of marriage, he announced to his wife that he’s met his soulmate, and he’s leaving the marriage. This came from ABSOLUTELY NOWHERE. This couple hardly ever fought, the girl was an excellent wife, and everything was perfectly normal looking.
I suppose that the gori lost that “chemical spark” in the relationship, and they lost interest in the exociticism of their SO. In a desi marriage, we focus less on the “chemistry” (which is a metaphor for attraction) and more on the friendship aspects, which transcends weight gains, job loss, etc.
If it didn’t exist, neither would this website.
Well, but that intercultural bond is not exactly unique to desis, is it? I hang out here, the way I hang out in indie-rock communities, for instance. It’s just another shared background and interest.
I’m really not understanding what you’re disputing here. I don’t think anyone thinks that nobody else feels any kinship with their co-ethnics. But the desi connection is unique to desis. That’s kind of what makes it a desi connection.
I dunno, boston_mahesh. I think cheating on spouses probably transcends all cultures and races. I don’t think it can be pinned just on white people. That guy just sounds like an immature jerk.
And yes, you can be in an intercultural marriage because of the values you share, the partnership of maintaining a home and family, and because you are each other’s best friend, not because you are looking for someone exotic to objectify.
Boston_Mahesh, did you mean “gori” or “gora”?
Yoga Fire:
I’m really not understanding what you’re disputing here. I don’t think anyone thinks that nobody else feels any kinship with their co-ethnics. But the desi connection is unique to desis. That’s kind of what makes it a desi connection.
Well, my original point, in case you missed it, was directed more towards obviously anon and her bizarrely vague yet specific parameters for a desi guy. She doesn’t seem to be overly religious yet she’s looking for, quote, “politically active, socially aware, liberal, funny, folk music loving desi guys”. I don’t know why she is insistent on the desi-ness. She doesn’t seem to be overly interested in Indian culture either, as her white boyfriend’s interest in India seems to make her uncomfortable. So what exactly is she seeking to share with a desi guy that she somehow cannot share with somebody who is not desi? Is it food? Surely not, everybody likes good food. Then what? She doesn’t want engineers or doctors or investment bankers either, which professions that most desis traditionally plump for, anyway. So you end up with an idealized desi guy who is stripped of everything that actually sets him apart as desi, you know what I mean? Or maybe it is the shared experience of not fitting in white society? That is surely not uniquely desi – everybody non-white experiences this, albeit in different forms.
And you know, most of you seem to be missing my larger point. You simply cannot find somebody who 100% matches all your experiences and interests. And why would you want to find somebody who is exactly the same? As somebody who is European, yet also Indian, my experiences growing up don’t match any of yours, since we grew up in totally different cultures. We are all not alike, not even our parental backgrounds, and sharing is overrated. It would be a shame if we started ruling out people just because they don’t match us point-for-point, and I hope obviously_anon takes this to heart.
But then again, maybe it’s just me. I don’t feel like I have anything much in common with most people here anyway. I grew up in a completely different culture, I had liberal parents, and I was always strong-willed enough to do whatever I wanted anyway. I dislike going to India because it means seeing a significant part of my close relatives; our relationships are fraught. Most of the desis here and generally in the USA would probably look down their noses on me, because my family is not rich, and I’m not studying at a famous (read: Ivy League) university. I couldn’t relate at all to Jhumpa Lahiri’s little stories since every single person went to a very expensive university and was very rich. So what I mean is, coming into contact with other desis has only convinced me that we are all different. Some of the families we know are incredibly narrow-minded, and I was raised explicitly not to judge people on basis of superficial qualities such as the colour of their skin.I don’t feel any ~unique~ connection to these people, sorry to say.
The majority of Desis in the US didn’t go to an Ivy. Plenty of us aren’t rich. And a lot of us think Jhumpa is at worst over-rated, and at best…boring. Additionally, “Most of the Desis here” are lurkers, not commenters, so we’ll never know what’s on their CV, whom they read or what they think, about anything.
Are many of us privileged, moreso than the general population because of the selection-issues inherent in a certain wave of immigration? Sure. But please don’t assume that people here (I think you meant SM?) would look down their noses at you because of where you went to school or what’s in your bank account. This community is the opposite of that.
OK, maybe you are or are not representative, who knows. But that is just the impression I got, that which school you went to and how much money you make is very important to Indians in the USA. And in any case, I am not even going to university in the USA or India, so that’s there. Maybe you might find that interesting, from an outsiders perspective not from India.
People are afraid of the unfamiliar, and that includes desis. For many desis, a fellow Indian who is not from the USA or Canada and not grown up in India inspires fear and mistrust, and sadly that is from my own experience even with my own family members. That is what I am trying to caution against, the fear of the unknown. It could also be turned against you.
Metal Mickey,
Where we grow up obviousley has an impact, and as this is an American blog, most of the people did grow up in a similar culture, and therefore may share some of that common experiance.
I grew up in England, and now live in the US, and although there are distinct differences between Desi’s from both countries there are a lot of commonalities as well. Having said that, I shared more ‘cultural’ things in common with an English person i dated here in the US than in a previous relationship with an Indian American. In any case preferring to date within one’s ethnic group is not a specifically desi thing, as the relatively low number of interracial relationships in the US seems to indicate.
In so far as Indians in the USA are predominantly upper middle class and consequentially tend to like most of the Stuff White People Like, that’s somewhat accurate. But that’s just an issue with upper middle class Americans in general.
Desi Brit:
I’m not saying that dating within one’s own ethnic group is a desi thing. I was pointing out the inconsistencies in that particular poster’s argument. But if you don’t want other people to comment on your dating preferences you shouldn’t post them to a public forum.
It’s nice you found a lot of commonalities with desis in the USA. But then again you moved to the USA, why would you move there if you didn’t have anything in common with them? Certainly I would not move there, but each to their own. However I seem to recall you having extremist Hindu viewpoints, and as such I would not find any commonality with you, and I am also desi. Sorry.
Metal Mickey,
Excuse me, I don’t believe I have ever expressed “extremist hindu viewpoints”. I find that statement quite uncalled for, do you have any proof for this allegation ? I’m a little surprised at your hostile tone, I certainly didn’t move to the US to commune with fellow desis, and I certainly don’t argue for any special bond with every desi i meet.
No need to apologize for not having anything in ‘common’ with me, we don’t really know each other and I certainly wasn’t trying to establish some sort of common desi link with you.
metal mickey– I used to wonder if you were a borderline troll, now I wonder if it’s a language/cultural thing. Sometimes (not on this post) you’re so…scathing.
metal mickey, as ugly truth so helpfully pointed out you are on an indian american site talking about how you have nothing in common with Indian Americans. You then go on to say that other indians would look down on you because you didnt go to an Ivy league school and arent rich? Maybe its me but perhaps the reason you arent sharing in the common indian-ness is because you sound like you pretty much want nothing to do with it or us.
Firstly this post was beautifully written. Anna you can articulate a complex subject in a way I envy…wanna be my mentor and help with my grad school applications?
The issue that I have is this; I am by no means the traditional desi following the path or expectations of the predecessors that may have come before me. I am privileged in being able to stand on the sacrifices and the loving nature of my parents to allow me to follow my dreams, and impact the world in a way that I choose to see fit. I want to work in higher education administration, based on my experience of navigating the educational system with the identity of a south asian american. That being said, identify development and social justice are a cornerstone of the profession, and struggle how long I can “educate” my white boyfriend, on my experience which he could really have no way to fully understand. He is open, extremely liberal, and well intentioned. I meant him in india ( the wonders of study abroad programs) and probably has more respect for me than any male counterpart I have ever met.
How do you know if someone is great..but great for you?
I think the white lady in this sad story is better out NOT marrying the South Asian man. The South Asian culture is patriarchial, anti gay, misogynist and very conservative. Why would this white woman want to get involved in this South Asian culture? The lady in this story is better off marrying a white man or someone that has western beliefs and truly loves her and is willing to fight for her.
This concept of “family honour” is very scary indeed. The man in this story worried more about his family and his community than his girlfriend. I wonder did this woman even meet this guy’s family? I think that’s a big indicator whether or not he was serious about her. I think the South Asian man in this sad story is a total coward! He clearly did not love this woman enough that he would fight for her, that he would stand up to his family an declare that he loves her. This woman should count her blessings that she will not be with a man that didn’t really love her. The white lady should count her blessings and move on with her life.
Based on my experience as Canadian South-Asian, I second metal mickey’s claim that south asians in general are concerned, if not consumed, with the schools their children attend and the moula they’ll be making out of their careers (hence the doctor, lawyer, engineer craze). It’s a pride thing. But that doesn’t necessarily generate hostility between desis, because if anything, the richer desi or the desi who obtained a degree from the more prestigious school wouldn’t feel much insecurity next to the not-so rich desi who graduated from an average school, no? And speaking of insecurity, desi parents have this tendency to instill a sense of competition in their kids from the moment they’re out of the womb (and again, i speak not just from my own experiences but from my friends’ and their friends and theirs…) And ironically enough, it seems like it’s this sense of competition (among other things of course) which most browns experience that’s bringing them on the same level, regardless of socioeconomic background. Yeah our experiences growing up as non-resident south asians may not be same, they may not even be similar, but I know i’m more likely to get understanding from another desi about my brown life than I would from a non-desi.
Orville, you claim that the concept of family honor is “very scary”, yet it is one that many of us take seriously. In addition to being “patriarchal, anti-gay, misogynist and very conservative” as you claim, south asian culture and society is also driven by collectivist ideals, hence the consideration of your family’s opinion when picking a spouse. I think you skipped the most important part of Anna’s post and missed her argument altogether. My own sister fell in love with someone from a different nationality and religion (but not different ethnicity) and has been with this amazing person for 10 friggin years. When my mother found out and declared war on my sister, my sister raised her white flag after seeing the emotional pain it was causing my mom. I don’t doubt for a second that she genuinely loved this guy, but knowing my sister, I wasn’t surprised that she gave in to my mom. Her excuse? “If ma disowns me, the whole family’ll shun me and I can’t live the rest of my life without any ties to my family”. Different people have different priorities. As sad as it may appear to some, brown marriages do not consist of a union between two people but between two families, hence there ain’t nothing you can do to get rid of your nosy, naggy amma-in-law…
Maybe this is why your popcorn sucks. Too much piss and vinegar.
Lilly I am not disagreeing that in the South Asian culture family honour is not important obviously it is.
Okay, obviously it would be terrible for someone to lose ties to their family.
However, I think is frightening and scary that the beliefs of the family are more important than an individual’s happiness.
I dated a South Asian gay man I know family honour is very important. We broke up but he was always terrified about coming out of the closet because he feared his family would harm him or disown him.
I feel bad for my ex boyfriend but, I also believe he made a choice to be a prisoner to his family and that’s pathetic and sad.
I also believe that this is the year 2010 and if the family can’t accept your happiness then too bad for the family! What is more important your own happiness or making the family happy?
It is. There is no need to sugar coat it. ‘Family honor’ is a diseased concept that has no place in the West. The President would not have existed if this family veto concept applied and his mother never married his father or gave birth to him. His biological father was a jerk anyways and she remarried after her divorce. But she still gave birth to him. He would not have existed if the ‘parental marriage veto’ applied.
I agree with you that Indian culture is bad, and the guy in question comes across as a loser for having the audacity to tell someone who loves him that she won’t make a good mother to his children. But don’t you think the lady is pretty dumb or she needs to take some of the blame for having a long-term relationship with someone who is a ‘total coward’ and someone who didn’t ‘really love her’