Earlier this month, the NYT ran a wedding announcement for the marriage of Nicolette Bird and Ravi Mehta. At first this seemed like the usual thing: one person with family in Calcutta, went to college in Calcutta, marrying another person with family in New York who went to Harvard.
Except …
In this case it was Nicolette Bird who is from Calcutta and works in Bollywood, and it’s Ravi Mehta who was born in Colorado, with his parents and job in New York City.
The bride, 25, is an actress and model and has had roles in the Bollywood films “Rock On,” released in 2008, and “Striker,” released earlier this month. As a model, she has appeared in television commercials and magazine advertisements in India. She graduated from Bhowanipur Education Society College in Calcutta. She is a daughter of Edwina Bird and Nicholas Bird of Calcutta.The bridegroom, 28, is the founder and managing director of Steadview Capital Management of New York, a hedge fund that focuses on companies in India. He graduated from Harvard. The bridegroom is a son of Geeta Mehta and Krishen Mehta of New York. [NYT]
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p>And why not? We hate it when people ask us “Really, where are you from” do we think this only happens to brown folks in America? Heck, this week people sent me two links to Indian TV ads which had anxiety about hybridity as their main theme:
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No word yet on what the Mehta-Bird’s will be eating at home, but given that he grew up in Japan I imagine their dinner table negotiations are quite intense. Or maybe they just get takeout.
anonyma today – interesting theory – glad you shared your thoughts!
[there are many black people with those names too]
….who’s ancestors happened to be owned by white people with the same names.
I know that, but it doesn’t matter. They’re black and they have those names and they’ll name their kids simliarly
As Yoga Fire said earlier, noone questions Frida Pinto because she IS most likely 100% Indian and it has nothing to do with “looking brown” or “taking on” Christian names . Goan and Mangalorean Catholics are converts of the Portuguese, not Portuguese themselves, and were re-christened with Portuguese family names 500 years ago. Anglo-Indians like Russell Peters on the other hand have actual “Anglo” blood in them from the time of the British Raj. People like Tom Alter who migrated to India, or Ruskin Bond who never left after Independence are Indians of European origin.
. When Sourabhee Debbarma won Indian Idol, the bigger deal was that she was female, not that she looked “northeastern”. Things are changing in India-I think what hasn’t changed are desis who have emigrated abroad and still have this hangup, especially since we’re so used to being “other”.
There are quite a few of those- probably 1 out of every 2 Konkanastha Brahmins from Maharashtra look like that, and communities such as Kashmiris, Sindhis, Konkani Saraswats, Gujarati Jains, Tuluvas, Punjabis and occasionally Iyengars have them too. But none of the ones I know refer to or think of themselves as “white”.
“I know that, but it doesn’t matter. They’re black and they have those names and they’ll name their kids simliarly”
Glad you know that, but that doesn’t take away from the names having predominantly western european origin, and hence more “white”
and what you say it’s not entirely true, many black american families chose names with arabic / hebrew foundation:
Jahdon Malik Shabaz Shaniqua Tameeka Jebediah Ousman
etc.. etc…
Same with my husband, he’s proud of his Indian heritage, he was born here and speaks his language pretty well. I was born in India but grew up here and it takes me about 15 mins to formulate a proper sentence in Telegu
oh forgot one,
Barack.
Before black american families wouldn’t name their children as such because it was perceived as a barrier. However that barrier is diminishing and its becoming more acceptable for people to talk about their true roots and history, which is a good thing right?
Shaniqua? LOL, that’s rather stereotypical no? There really are not that many Tamikas or Shanaynays etc, the “arabization” is fairly recent I believe due to many blacks converting to Islam or wanting to create their own identity rather than inherit “slave names”. Western European names originate mainly from the Bible–in which people are middle eastern.
Although I suspect the names (and even stories) in the Bible are taken from Hinduism and Sanskrit ie Saraswati & Brahmaya= Sarah & Abraham.
However that barrier is diminishing and its becoming more acceptable for people to talk about their true roots and history, which is a good thing right?
what are those true roots? distinctively “black” american names often have little to do with africa. debra dickerson suggested that americans were much more open to electing a man of kenyan and white american heritage who was named “barack obama” than they would be to electing “raheem washington” from detroit. names are weird. leroy and bernie both have ethnic connotations in the united states.
First look on google with Nicolette Bird Anglo Indian http://www.bollyspice.com/view.php/4250-nicolette-bird-interview.html
Western European names originate mainly from the Bible
also classical civilization (julia, jason, anthony) and northern european civilization (erik, william, brigit).
also, obviously context matters. if you saw a marriage announcement in india for “Nicolette Bird and Ravi Mehta” it stands to reason there’s a high probably that nicolette bird is anglo-indian, as a substantial fraction of those with “anglo” names in india are anglo-indian, as opposed to western transplants or foreigners. obvious this is different in the united states. ennis’ post seemed pretty obviously situated from an american perspective, including references to “where do you really come from.”
@Anony: If you look at comment #44, I give one of the same links. It’s great that you knew instantly that she was Anglo Indian from the name, I did not, and neither did the interviewer.
Didn’t see 44 you can delete my comment
The interviewer probably didn’t know as the website and writer seem to be from Australia
Re: Anglo-Indians http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,300683,00.html http://mccluskie.blog.co.uk/ http://home.alphalink.com.au/~agilbert/abstra~5.html
and Ennis, sorry for multiple posts, I am agreeing with you in 65 it makes sense that people outside of India not to be aware of these difference. Feel free to delete all my comments.
“Shaniqua? LOL, that’s rather stereotypical no?”
uhh. no it’s a real name.
” the “arabization” is fairly recent I believe due to many blacks converting to Islam or wanting to create their own identity rather than inherit “slave names”.”
fairly recent meaning the last 60 years?
Whats your point? None of this discussion vitiates the existence of white names. Even reading your name “Jenna” makes me (and likely most others) think of a white girl – in particular:
http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0001398/
i for one was stunned upon learning Lucille Ball’s husband wasn’t south Asian
Lucille Ball’s husband wasn’t south Asian
lol; I don;t know if u r joking manju, but when i was kid, i thought elvis was indian.
Anony: No problem, I thought you were implying I should have known.
Even reading your name “Jenna” makes me (and likely most others) think of a white girl – in particular:
zing!
lol; I don;t know if u r joking manju, but when i was kid, i thought elvis was indian.
yeah, my mom thought he was brown too. he did have recent cherokee ancestry, as he was from the upland scots-irish milieu where europeans and natives intermarried. but i heard that he also died his brown hair black, and there have been rumors for years that he was of mulungeon (triracial isolate) heritage.
Anybody know the number of foreign residents in India? I’m guessing that they out number Anglo-Indians, but I can’t be sure.
when i informed my parents i was going to be a footbal player when i grow up, i used the vikings Ahmad Rashad as a desi role model. imangine my shock when i learned claire huxtable was indian too.
Well, you don’t see me going around caling myself Chicano Manju. He must’ve been trying to pass or something. probably thought it would improve his chances at a netip mixer.
real or not, it’s still stereotypical, I’ve never met or even heard of a black girl (that wasn’t on tv) named Shaniqua.
my point is: an entire race doesn’t own names. Lots of “white names” have non-white origins and non white people who have them.
I loathe this comparison ( stemmed from annoying high school boys, I’m not even blonde!) , but that’s the thing, the media has pounded into your head about what people look like with certain names, not the real world. There are black girls named Britney and white girls named Shenae. My mom says Jenna sounds somewhat Indian (true?) but westerners wouldn’t have trouble saying my name.
Cause Ricky Ricardo is such a common south Asian name. Ironically , the actor who plays him is named Desi. !!
My mom claims she’s certain that George Clooney is Indian.
the bharatmatrimony.com add is creepy. Oh no! hes bringing home a white grl! thats horrible!
its ok… shes the right race.
its like the aryan nation or something…
i am sure that is true if you use convenient counting metrics. but there is a large non-trivial number of anglo indians in india. i have to agree with ml #15 about this post.
its ok… shes the right race.
yeah. also, there seems to be class and regional preferences expressed here. that being said, it’s the world as it is. what makes preferences X acceptable and preferences Y not acceptable? that’s a bigger question.
I second this. The ad was very creepy.
The double standard is well and alive in my experience. Desi Boys can have fun outside their ethnic group while they have to get married to a desi girl while desi girls are not supposed to sport around with any guy, desi or not, and have to marry a desi guy. They can date if they plan on marrying that particular desi guy later.
@Gandhi math:
According to wikipedia, there are only 80,000 Anglo-Indians left in India, many having left. I know about the community, but with only 80,000 out of a billion, Anglo-Indian names really aren’t that common.
We don’t know how many Americans are in India, but one estimate said 60,000. I don’t know how many of those are Americans of Indian descent, but if you combine that with Canadians, English and Australians of English decent, I’ll bet there are more recent immigrants / short term residents of English decent than Anglo-Indians.
“nice to know one thing is for certain though – rich guys will always be able to purchase hot trophy wives”
Hot chicks have it all. They sleep around with hot men when they are young and then marry a rich guy. Perfect Life with no hard work.
The Bird family is an old Kolkata clan. Most of the men, and at least one of the women, have worked in the world of horse racing, as jockeys and trainers. They are as Indian as anyone. This entire post is misplaced. It would do to do a little research before such indulgent speculations.
@calcuttawallah
All I have is google. I actually searched for her father’s name and found no reference in the first few screens. I’m glad that these facts are well known to you, but you could share them without presuming that they’re easily knowable to everybody. There are fewer than 80,000 Anglo-Indians and I’m an ABD. Heck, none of the earlier commenters had heard of her family.
Furthermore, I never said that she wasn’t Indian, in fact I said that she was from Calcutta and that her parents lived there too. I couldn’t tell much about her background when I wrote her post. Since then I’ve found out that she’s Anglo-Indian and she’s marrying an Indian-American. What’s misplaced about that? The post still works. She has a traditionally English name and he has a traditionally Indian one, so the names imply one thing and the full stories of the people tells you something else.
Sheesh.
According to wikipedia, there are only 80,000 Anglo-Indians left in India, many having left. I know about the community, but with only 80,000 out of a billion, Anglo-Indian names really aren’t that common.
Ah!!! This happens when one misses some very crucial points of Indian culture and history, and only depend two searches deep from google, like some of our resident SM scholars often do. However, I do not think your post and premise is entirely misplaced. I understand
That is true, that probably 80,000-125,000 self identified Anglo-Indians are now left in India. A lot of them immigrated out of India in 50-70s.
However, there are lot of Anglo-Indians who have been removed 2-3 and more generations from Anglo part of lineage that they no longer identify themselves publicly as Anglo-Indians. According to Dalrymple** (and also from a British DNA hunting TV program), a significant number of Delhi Muslim elites from last phases of Mughal Empire have part British blood in them. This originates from 16-18th century before East India Company instituted laws and cantonments that actively discouraged mixing, and strongly discriminated Anglo-Indians. These Delhi muslim families and other families from that time will never self-identify as Anglo-Indians. Sometimes in 17-18th century, social mixing between Indian and English became minimal, by an active building of cantonments, churches, laws barring decent employment to them, and getting English women shipped to India.
According to wikipedia, there are only 80,000 Anglo-Indians left in India, many having left. I know about the community, but with only 80,000 out of a billion, Anglo-Indian names really aren’t that common.
Ah!!! This happens when one misses some very crucial points of Indian culture and history, and only depend two searches deep from google, like some of our resident SM scholars often do. However, I do not think your post and premise is entirely misplaced. I understand
That is true, that probably 80,000-125,000 self identified Anglo-Indians are now left in India. A lot of them immigrated out of India in 50-70s.
However, there are lot of Anglo-Indians who have been removed 2-3 and more generations from Anglo part of lineage that they no longer identify themselves publicly as Anglo-Indians. According to Dalrymple** (and also from a British DNA hunting TV program), a significant number of Delhi Muslim elites from last phases of Mughal Empire have part British blood in them. This originates from 16-18th century before East India Company instituted laws and cantonments that actively discouraged mixing, and strongly discriminated Anglo-Indians. These Delhi muslim families and other families from that time will never self-identify as Anglo-Indians. Sometimes in 17-18th century, social mixing between Indian and English became minimal, by an active building of cantonments, churches, laws barring decent employment to them, and getting English women shipped to India.
Also, Anglo-Indians traditionally are known for two professions: a) railway drivers (a term stereotypically used for Anglo-Indian is a Tommy Bacha who is a railway steam engine driver), and b) teaching professions. Therefore, their persona is widely noticed due to their professions, and their name and presence is not a surprise to an average Indian.
Some of the earliest Bollywood actresses were Anglo-Indians (however, their screen names were Hindu sounding), so were significant number of Indian Air Force pilots in Independent India defense forces.
Being in glamor and national hereos made Anglo-Indian names that is not something an am adami (common man) never heard about. Same is true about Mangolerean or Goan Christian names (example, Albert Pinto) that sound European. Also, educator like Frank Anthony in newly independent India has left large imprint on Indian educational system.
** Dalrymple has part Indian blood in him from generations past
Completely agree with Kush Tandon. Number does not equal the prominence of a community and how large its presence is in the national psyche.
Kush and Calcuttawallah: Thanks to you both, I’m learning a lot!
Kush: Are anglo-indian names more common than self-identifying anglo-indians?
ML: This is true, but compare the number of Indians with English names to the numbers of foreigners with English names temporarily residing in India to the number of people with English names world wide.
Now tell me, if you see Mehta marries Bird in an American newspaper, why would you automatically assume that Bird is one of the people from the smallest group of the three? That’s just bad bayesianism. It’s surprising that Bird in this case is Indian, not because there are no Indian Birds, but because most Birds are not. That’s part of the purpose of the post.
Kush: Are anglo-indian names more common than self-identifying anglo-indians?
According to Darlymple, if you could hide the fact of mixed race, you would do that because there was a time when Anglo-Indians were openly shunned both by British and Indian alike.
Say, if you could pass as British and had some affluence, and completely hide the Indian blood through systematic hiding of your past, then you would do that. I guess some of the Delhi Muslim families from 17-19th century, the English part converted to Islam, so Anglo name in the progeny did not show up at all. In Darlymple’s book White Mughals, he talks a lot about that.
Merle Oberon was an Anglo-Indian from Calcutta but as a Hollywood actress she had a false public family history that included Australia.
One has to remember that a typical English in an East India Company (or even a Dutch or French in India) in 17-early 19th century was a single guy.
Sometimes they would go native – take a Hindu or Muslim wife, and themselves convert to the religion of the woman.
This all changed in early 19th century.
Kush: Are anglo-indian names more common than self-identifying anglo-indians?
Yes, because Goanese, Mangolerean, and some of the North Eastern Christian names sound Anglo or European but they do not have any anglo blood in them. This is outnumbered by huge proportion.
Recent example in news is Frieda Pinto. One of my former classmate in India was from Meghalya, and his name is Walter Shocklet
“Hot chicks have it all. They sleep around with hot men when they are young and then marry a rich guy. Perfect Life with no hard work.” Staying hot takes hard work. A man who gets a hot wife as a trophy won’t hesitate to dump her or cheat on her when she starts losing that hotness. Remember, aging is one of the harsh realities of life, especially for women who don’t have a lot more than their physical assets. Coming to the discussion of names, Indians don’t assume that someone with a non-Hindu sounding name is a foreigner because living in India imbibes them with the understanding of its diversity. The western people however, see India as a mono-ethnic country like their own where the diversity comes from foreign immigrants, not the natives (WASPs). Hence, they assume that any Indian with a non-Hindu name is not a ‘proper’ Indian. For the record, it is not only Anglo-Indians who have Christian sounding names.
Jenna:
funny how you say this
“real or not, it’s still stereotypical,”
and also say this :
“but that’s the thing, the media has pounded into your head about what people look like with certain names, not the real world. “
That’s real porn star logic right there.
“my point is: an entire race doesn’t own names. Lots of “white names” have non-white origins and non white people who have them.”
For the most part.. actually, yes they do. 99 out of a 100 times Nicolette Bird will be a white person that does not live in Calcutta. Which is why this story is even “a story” and why it was likely picked by the blogger to cover. because its surprising for someone with a traditionally western european name (read: white name) to be Indian (or any other non-white category)
“Staying hot takes hard work.”
yea but the payoff is far greater than the investment. Besides with the advanced science behind cosmetics these days, a 40 yr old can look 22.
I call that complete bullcrap. Any group picture of them would expose the lie. As an example here are some pictures of konkanashta brahmins on a matrimonial site; none of them look white:
http://www.indianmatrimonialhub.com/Grooms/KOB/
It is also worth pointing out that konkanashta/chitpavan brahmins were considered impostors/unauthentic brahmins by the orthodox brahmins of Benares.
SepiaMutiny is a shining beacon of cultural sensitivity again, I see.
As for the topic at hand many Indians use the term Anglo-Indian for any Indian who has some form of colonial European ancestry – not necessary just English. I knew an Indian man who was descended from one of the governers of Goa and he called himself an Anglo-Indian.
But I think what many DBDs (including myself) are objecting to is the fact that the post gives the possibility of that question coming up back in India. It is going to be a question mark for the Westerner. But for Indians, as soon one begins to read the article and learn that she and her parents are from Calcutta, then there is no such lingering or wondering.
Which is why comparing the “Where are you really from” in the Indian context in this particular case doesn’t work.
How others see it, or wonder is a completely legitimate point. But how Indians would react to it, is not.
I would second Abdullah here:
And adding on to the communities others have mentioned, there are also South Indian Christians (Non Anglo-Indian S.Is and non Monglorean Catholics) that have Anglo names.
People with these names already have to go through with and correct Westerners asking if they are mixed, adopted, how they got the name, etc. So when the post automatically assumes that in India the reaction would be of a similar vein, those of us who know it is not are bound to object.