If you get a chance, check out the full slide show of the parade from this past weekend in Jersey that I wrote about in the previous post. In one or two of the pictures I observed a level of militancy and jingoism that made me feel uneasy. I am pretty far removed from such sentiment so I am not sure how strong such opinions are in Indian Americans. I believe nobody should ever parade children this way:
I want to stress that most of the pictures in the set are of perfectly appropriate displays. This one really threw me off though.
See comment 137 as an example of what violates the comment policy
Abhi, just curious: What trajectory did you want/hope this thread would take when you posted ?
No, what hampers dialog is having to refute every bullshit statement made by a few individuals who bully others and dominate threads (or repeatedly convert some unrelated topic into and Indian Jingosim topic). I rarely ban anyone and if you look at my threads over the years you will see lots of opposing viewpoints. However, the very identity of SM, as judged by some of these threads has changed. I feel I have not been aggressive enough in enforcing our comment policy because I just don’t have enough time. I think some of the others feel the same way. For better or worse what the commenters on our site say reflect on us as bloggers. I am therefore going to make an active effort to simply enforce the comment policy. I will not be arbitrary but you should notice the difference.
Rahul, chill mere bhai, I am not classifying Arya Samaj or Ramakrishna Mission as Hindu or otherwise. This is a classification that Arya Samaj adopted and has successfully maintained for itself for quite some time. Reciting prayers and teaching the Hindu epics doesn’t make it a Hindu school. Only if it is allowed to combine the so called secular education and religious goals under one roof and remain a non-profit institution does it become a Hindu equivalent of Loyola or Crescent Engg. As the law stands now that is not permitted. The Ramayana and Mahabharata are of course great works and should be required reading in all schools in India. An Indian education is incomplete without them. “Moral Instruction” isn’t a mandated course either in the curriiculum prescribed by the CBSE or the many state boards of education in India. It is minority institutions that have the leeway to organize special classes on this subject. Both in the first school I went to (a state board Catholic school) and Loyola College I had to take one such class. In the Catholic school, Christians took catechism, while we heathens took “Moral Science” which was simply summarised set of lessons with God standing in for Jesus. In Loyola we heathens took a course in Ethics, Catholics took Catholic Studies and Protestants took Christian Theology. In our Ethics class we had a cassocked holy roller (about the only one I encountered in Loyola) who spent quite a bit of time telling us that most of what we did was bad. In schools run by the Chinmaya Mission – that admit children of all faiths – there are after school classes available for any student who is interested. The Ramakrishna Mission too does something like that although a great many of the schools it runs cater to the very very needy. In Madras some of the best schools are run by Hindus Padma Seshadri, State Bank Officers Assoc. High School, Vidya Mandir, KFI, and even Hindu Higher Secondary etc are run by Hindus but have nothing to do with Hindu tradition instruction. Sishya – a very preppy school – run by the KIT Thomas Trust is run by Christians but is non-parochial to the extreme with many Christians preferring to send their children to St.John’s rather than the very “modern” and “fast” school.
Now since you have no idea of what I ideas I have about Hinduism you should be careful before you talk about my “views”. AS I said before, chill bhai, chill.
J&K of course needs all the security it can have. The Valley is full of murderous thugs who butchered the Kashmiri Pandits and remain determined to cleanse the Valley of any trace of Hinduism. Further Pakistan infiltrates terrorists at will who have a large community of sympathisers in the Valley. So the security is justified. As for that bit about running roughshod etc., that’s just a loser’s refrain. The terrorists years ago underestimated India’s resolve. They have been paying the price ever since. As for the rest of the whine it is the usual lies. Nothing new there. Read Praveen Swami to sort out your notions.
Doc Anon in action, smear away! We have heard this before. And that is very interesting. The Malaysian government dubbed the HindRAF an LTTE plant. Doc Anon goes one step further and simply conflates anything Hindu with Gujarat. And that means Doc Anon just ran out fuel, juice, I mean gas! You should raise the level of your game, I am sure you can do better. And it is interesting, I guess when you have spent a lifetime finding a justification for your apologia, you start projecting. Like that one guy in the troop who insists everyone else is marching out of step.
@ Wanderer: “Why does secularism imply Anti Hindu? I would say names like Hindustan implies anti secularism”
i have said this before and i say this again. The name “Hindustan” was coined by Persians. the suffix “-stan” meaning “land” and the term “Hindu” to them meant “Those who lived around and beyond the INDUS river.” Today we refer to these people as “Indians”, “Desis”, “South Asians” whichever you prefer. It has nothing to do with religion. The religion that you are referring to is called Sanathana Dharma. ALSO the constitution of India does not recognize the name “Hindustan” as an official name of the country most probably because people like you would have a problem with it. The name “Bharat” however is recognized by the indian govt.
Good Day to you sir/ m’aam.
I wanted and expected a vigorous debate with views from both sides (and I knew both sides would be passionate). There is a difference between vigorous debate and thinly-veiled bigotry however. The same people keep crossing that line despite a hundred past warnings.
jyotsana chill. I have no problem with you expressing your views but stop being uncivilized in how you address other commenters when you do so. There is no need to be rude.
Yes, it has, and I will tell you why in a private e-mail. Many of us have been SM’s ardent fans and supporters for years. So it is sad to see it change. But I will tell you the one thing you can do turn it around, and why none of you ever do it is beyond me. No, it has nothing to do with banning people whose only fault is that they are wrong, iconoclastic, stupid, contrarian, prescient – take your pick.
Still looking at the mirror while you type, I see? 🙂
hahaha. This would have been a killer comment, if I didn’t actually know about these schools and what they teach, by virtue of family and friends. Are you telling me they do not have Hindu prayers, or do not teach Hindu mythology as part of their moral instruction/moral science routine? Are you claiming they do not have regular class hours for moral instruction, both in CBSE and assorted state boards? You choose to actively ignore the practices that shape laws, and instead focus purely on perceived injuries to your spectacularly sensitive skin so as to further your grievances. The idea that children in a large majority of schools do not get schooled in Hindu legends, myths or ideas is thoroughly risible.
Shorter jyotsana: “I am fine with killing random Muslims in the valley because they are all terrorists.”
Thanks, Floridian. I hope to meet you someday, hopefully soon.
In my view the kind of “anti-secular” that is a problem is not people who have questions about the applicability of Nehruvian secularism to the Indian subcontinent, or who wonder whether India in particular has applied its secularism correctly or fairly. Those are fair questions, which have been raised by serious scholars (such as Ashis Nandy, for one).
Rather, the kind of “anti-secularism” that has become a problem is reflected in comments by people who clearly have an animus against people from different backgrounds than their own. It’s people who seem fundamentally prejudiced in favor of their own community, be that community Hindu, Sikh, Muslim, or Christian — and predictably express that prejudice in comment after comment, sucking up all the available oxygen. Is there any one way to say who that is? No, we have to call it as best we can. Are we going to ban everyone we disagree with? Again, no.
Quit it Rahul. You can’t expect her to be civil if you aren’t.
Sorry about that. (BTW, jyotsana is a “he”.)
Let me rephrase: Why do you dismiss willy-nilly the rampant violation of civil liberties of innocent Muslims in the valley by agents of the Indian government, by saying they are all murderous thugs and terrorists?
Rahul:
Indiscriminate and brutal repression has been the only way throughout history that the state has resisted a guerrilla movement. What else has worked? Quote me some examples.
Out of curiosity, what is the flag they’re showing in the parade – the one with the sun and red rays against a yellow background? i saw this in this vid as well with the gent who has a paddleboat powered by cycling.
And, similarly, inflicting of terror upon civilians and affecting facts on the ground has been how guerillas have made an impact to their advantage in many areas (IRA is a prominent example, as are several independence movements, for example in Africa). You are making an argument from expedience, which I acknowledge, but then you must acknowledge the same for every side in this fight.
Further, will you excuse the natural reaction of hate and antagonism towards the state for perpetrating indiscriminate brutality on a particular demographic? Or do you expect them to grin and bear it because
Once it has got to that point, the best choice is to migrate out of the conflict zone, if that choice is open to you.
@ Abhi – Hope my post was not seen as inflammatory in nature. Those were just my perspectives, and this thread has clearly overrun its welcome. I will go back to making inane jokes and making comments on economics.
@ #120 (Dr. Amonymous) – There are many great books on Kashmir, however if I understand you right, the books you might enjoy are “Bonfire of Kashmiriyat” by Bamzai and “My frozen turbulence in Kashmir”. Another excellent work of fiction that has Kashmir issue in its background is “Shalimar the clown” by Rushdie. If someone knows interesting book that deal with current day politics, please post here.
Thanks!