There has been a new wave of anti-Christian communal violence in Pakistan, with a riot involving as many as 20,000 people in the town of Gojra, west of Lahore.
We normally use the phrase “communal violence” in the Indian context, but reading the particulars of this story in the New York Times, the idea of “communalism” (a particularly South Asian expression of communitarian religious hostility) seems to fit. The recent riots were not on a huge scale — 100 houses belonging to local Christians were burned (compare to 3000 homes of Christians burned in the violence in Orissa last year) — but it’s still frightening and sad.
There is a history of this kind of violence in Pakistan. I don’t know the history in great detail, but Wikipedia has links to several similar incidents in just the past few years. (It often starts with the claim that someone has desecrated the Koran.)
One oddity in the Times coverage was the way they described the size of the Christian community in Pakistan, as comprising “less than five percent of the population.” I gather the number is more like 1.6% — why not simply say, “less than 2%”? Maybe that’s a nitpick.
As a response, the Christian schools in Karachi are on strike for three days. A number of arrests of those involved in the attacks have been made, and President Zardari has strongly condemned them. The Daily Times newspaper has a story with a subheader that the DPO (police chief) in the district has been “booked” as well, but the text of the story actually states that authorities are at this point just thinking about charging him with failing in his duty to keep the peace.
Incidentally, the town of Gojra is in the Toba Tek Singh District of Punjab, an area made famous by Sa’adat Hasan Manto’s story about Partition, “Toba Tek Singh.” Though we’re no longer talking directly about partition, that story about the madness that can sometimes overtake people in the name of religion still feels relevant. Here is a translation of the story, and Professor Fran Pritchett has both the original Urdu and a Devanagari version of the story linked from her site: here.
Yes and the lawyers in the long march who were chanting “Azadi ka matlab kya ?? .. Ya ilahi ill illah” are also secular.
As someone else has said this earlier, the Sunnis of the Kashmir Valley are a rounding error. It wouldn’t take much time to Han’ise the Valley. In any case the secessionist thugs of the Valley are a cowardly lot. Before Buddhist Ashoka there was a Hindu Chandragupta who threw out Alexander’s satraps. And even at its height the Mughal “empire” existed only in Delhi. There are large parts of India where the Mughal Empire’s minions had no say. There’s a lot more history outside Rahmat Ali’s rantings. You could start with Dr.Ambedkar’s Pakistan or the Partition of India. I have posted the link to this paper several times on SM whenever the Wahabi wannabes and Prema types run amok. Reading it usually clears up the most tendentious disingenuous fundamentalist arguments. You too should Ardy. As for all those rants about what Nehru did whether he stood on the ramparts of the Red Fort or used a charkha or Chakra is irrelevant. The terrorist thugs of te Valley too have no say in how many yatris visit the Amarnath Mandir which along with the many Hindu mandirs of J&K are 1000s of years old. India has always hosted innumerable melas and gatherings, with the Kumbh Mela from antiquity being the largest ever gathering of humanity. The Valley thugs should be happy that Srinagar doesn’t host a Kumbh. Again jiski lathi uski bains. Learn to grit your teeth and accept the reality.
RC (# 251), just because the lawyers movement used Islamic terminology in its slogans doesn’t make them Islamists. It’s natural to co-opt the dominant culture to your ends, some might say it’s effective PR.
Jyotsana, nice to see you advocating might makes right. Such a good demonstration of India’s secular and democratic principles. The only thing I can say is that you are the equivalent of Pakistani Mullahs, and thank god there are sensible people like Dr. Manmohan Singh and Gilani Sahib in power. If people like you were running the show, god knows what would have happened.
Also, I think we confuse things when we frame the Kashmir dispute as an India-Pakistan issue. It’s really about what India (and Pakistan) owe to the Kashmiris. If India cannot grant them independence, then at least they should have a certain level of autonomy with Kashmiris being able to cross the LOC to trade and meet relatives on the other side. They should be able to manage their own affairs to as great an extent as possible. This was Musharraf’s back-channel negotiations with Dr. Singh, no? A step in the right direction, in my opinion.
This is a great argument for terrorists to acquire bigger and better weapons.
@ jyotsana,
“As someone else has said this earlier, the Sunnis of the Kashmir Valley are a rounding error. It wouldn’t take much time to Han’ise the Valley. In any case the secessionist thugs of the Valley are a cowardly lot. Before Buddhist Ashoka there was a Hindu Chandragupta who threw out Alexander’s satraps. And even at its height the Mughal “empire” existed only in Delhi. There are large parts of India where the Mughal Empire’s minions had no say. There’s a lot more history outside Rahmat Ali’s rantings. You could start with Dr.Ambedkar’s Pakistan or the Partition of India. I have posted the link to this paper several times on SM whenever the Wahabi wannabes and Prema types run amok. “
The secessionist thugs of the valley as you put it needed too many Indian soldiers to subdue them. But then again, given how ethnic and religious ghettoes mushroom throughout India- Emraan Hashmi might be able to finally get a flat in Kashmir.Heck,you can send a million or so Iyers from Tamil Nadu to Kashmir – all Kashmiris need to do is send the smells of beef and meat and off will the Iyers run back to Bharat.I usually refused to engage in debates with rabid folks like you and the likes of DizzyDesi and AlBeruni and Rob – but given your sense of simplified answer to deluge Kashmir with Indians – I could not resist to send a whimsical repartee.I think Rahul is doing a much better job.
So, does that mean that the dominant culture of that country dictates that lawyers, generally educated and supposedly enlightened (though not expected to be secular) folks, go around equating freedom with the supremacy of one religion over everything else. No wonder then that the minority numbers are evaporating.
. This really irritates me. When you want to bash India, you (not necessarily you personally Kabir) paint it as a minority oppressing, majoritarian, unjust, Hindu dominated nation. When it suits the argument, you appeal to it’s secular, democratic principles and liberal spirit.This reminds me a lot of what Islamists (again, I know you aren’t one) are doing in the west, specially the UK. Pat Condell has it covered quite well in his You tube videos.
Why should we owe them anything more than what we owe any other citizen of the country? Is it because of their religion? Is it because of their precious ‘Kashmiriyat’, which as we all know is innately superior to, and hence immiscible with any any other lowly culture of the country?. As Jyotsana had previously pointed out, India and it’s citizens are fully aware that the Kashmir ‘movement’ is in it’s essence religious separatism. And we have no patience or sympathy for that kind of a thing.
I am quoting relevant portions from an article by Mr. Joginder Singh (published in the Pioneer but not archived). Provides some facts and figures for your consideration…
As best as I know the problem of Kashmir’s secession or not rose with India’s independence. The Americans helped UK during the WW2 and insisted on something in return for their Marshall and other aid: a strong presence in the subcontinent.
Mrs. Loy Anderson, wife of the US envoy, was specifically sent to Sheikh Abdullah and whoever else was in charge by the US govt. She said, never mind what the maharaja signed. Separate, become independent with our support. This would have given the US a foothold in the sub-continent, a potential colony and certainly a place to watch the USSR, China, etc. This is really the root of the K problem and why the US continues to essentially support Pak’s claim while proclaiming support for democracy/peace. They know they can usually control Pak’s elite with money and modern trinkets like Ivy L scholarships, a few positions in the Council For Foreign Relations, the Pak army with free weapons profiting powerful arms companies with the US taxpayer’s money. They want bases in Kashmir.
The business of Islam assuming such importance seems to come far later, like in many other places. Most Kashmiri Muslims are aware of their Hindu backgrounds with names like Butt (Bhat). The word, Kashmir, comes from Kashyap, the well known Hindu saint. Both the Kashmiri Ms and Hs were proud of their respect for each other. Time and again, Kashmiri Ms, not other Ms, have tried to protect the Pandits from the militants who came from outside. Kashmir’s Ms have even repaired some Hindu temples, tried to look after houses evacuated by Pandit neighbors.
While many armies do atrocious things, remember Kashmiri villagers have been told say the Indian army did this or see what happens to your village. Muslim militants have been found in uniforms which resemble the Indian army’s. Remember the Kandahar hijacker called himself Shankar. This is routinely done by militants who are not Kashmiri, to confuse people/ media. .
Today there are people like Farook Kathwari who having become rich in America now support independent Kashmir to support their own glory. The man who would be king. They study states like Lichtenstein to see how small, land locked countries manage. (Lichtenstein may be managing on laundering drug/similar money.)
So the issue of Kashmir may not really be about religion or independence but countries like the US and supporters who have their own pitiful agenda.
Re plebiscite, India has always agreed provided all who vote can prove they were originally Kashmiri before ‘47 and include those who were forced to leave. Happy to be corrected.
Dear weird
No one has found Indian terrorists in Balochistan or in the Marriot Hotel explosion but plenty of Pak terrorists/ freedom fighters have been found in Indian Kashmir and in Mumbai for that matter. Whatever else Islam propagates, it does value truth, not lying to get someone else’s property, and takes theft seriously. Easy to take what you want and say the religion says so.
Folks, FWIW, Hitler was never a veggie. He stopped eating sausages on doctor’s orders and that was considered veggie: no red meat but eat fish and fowl.
Dear Ardy
Re Emran Hashmi, several Muslims, not just well known ones like Aamir Khan and Shahrukh, have declared him a liar. Presumably none of the millions of Muslims can buy a flat or even rent one. Must see what has happened to my neighbors on the fifth floor, I usually meet them at Id.
And yes, Ardy, we do have heeng!
hey ardy and weird, invite you both to eat dal ( Kashmiri rajma?)with me in Mumbai.
Lupus, the issue of the slogans the lawyers were chanting is a red herring. The lawyers movement was essentially non-religious in nature focused on restoring the chief justice and ensuring the integrity of the Constitution. Of course, like all political movements, religious parties and center-right parties like the PML-N joined it for their own purposes. But It was not a religious movement. Unfortunatly, Islam has seeped into every aspect of Pakistani discourse. When even the Cricket team thanks Allah for their victory before focusing on things like tactics and strategy, is it any wonder that an essentially secular movement seeks to play on the popularity of religion? Anyway, the lawyers movement has nothing to do with Kashmir.
2) I was commenting on jyotsana’s hypocracy. At the same time, that he states that India is secular and democratic, he states “jiski lathi uski bhains (might makes right)”. He very proudly says,”The Sunni Kashmiris are a rounding error, we could easily annihiliate them”. With discourse like that, is it any wonder thereis an independence movement? Who wants to be part of a union at gunpoint? I was not commenting on the national characteristics of India as a whole.
3) The stats you have referred to about the disproportionate amount of help given to J and K are very interesting, but I don’t think they change my argument. Could it not be that the center is placating the Kashmiris in order to keep the independence movement (or insurgency if you prefer) from growing stronger? Also, no matter how much economic help a state or ethnic group is given, I don’t think that can replace the aspirition of autonomy. Isn’t this kind of like the Chinese argument that they are economically developing Tibet thus the Tibetans shouldn’t want independence from Beijing?
Like it or not, many Kashmiris have not and still do not feel Indian (or Pakistani), they feel Kashmiri. J and K was not part of British India, and it’s not indisputably part of India. Democratic principles demand that the referendum be held and people be allowed to choose their own destinies.
Finally, regarding the argument that the ruler of the princely state was allowed at independence to accede to either India or Pakistan and that Hari Singh acceded to India: the ruler of Junnagarh acceded to Pakistan, but India held a plebescite there and did not honor the ruler’s wishes. Thus, since Kashmir is exactly the analogous case (Hindu ruler, Muslim majority population, while J’garh was Muslim ruler, Hindu majority population), it makes sense that a plebesite must be held in J and K. This is the UN’s position as well as Pakistan’s position. If India is so sure that the Kashmiris want to remain Indian, why is the government scared to hold a referendum? Once a referendum is held, I for one will stop arguing the case for Kashmiri independence. A referendum should be held and the results of it should be honored. If a majority of Kashmiris choose to be part of India, then so be it. If they want something else that should be honored as well.
hey Kabir
yes, that is my name and i am not kashmiri. common indian name once.
you have been independent, even tempered and mostly fair. I don’t think u understood Jyotsana. She was saying, had india chosen to, it cld have eliminated 3 or 4 million and/or simply allowed large scale Hindu/Buddhist/Sikh migrants. Who cld have done anything against that, esp say 40 yrs ago? In fact it respected the dispute and protected Kashmir against that. I dont know any other country that has done that.
Pl note a referendum must include ALL Kashmiris, including those forced out provides they can prove they/families were Kashmiri in ’47. No one from outside Kashmir can vote. India has asked for that, P has routinely refused. Knowing business cannot flourish with the current scene, India gives Kashmir money. No, it doesn’t need to bribe, it could simply starve it, tax it, make it miserable for all or kill all the people it has been accused of killing. If u r going to find fault for both giving or not giving aid, you win! I wish we could have peace bet ind and Pak, Kashmir is relatively unimp. i wish pak wld concentrate on education, business and travel and leave war alone. India has asked for that, P has routinely refused. Go forth and be prosperous!
“I wish we could have peace bet ind and Pak, Kashmir is relatively unimp. i wish pak wld concentrate on education, business and travel and leave war alone. India has asked for that, P has routinely refused. Go forth and be prosperous!”
Dear Kashmira, I agree with you except when you say “Kashmir is relatively unimportant”. This depends on who you are talking about. Yes, to India and Pakistan, Kashmir is relatively unimportant but to Kashmiris, Kashmir is all-important. Thus, shouldn’t they have the most say in what happens to their land?
I agree with you that a referendum should include all Kashmiris including those in exile. That’s only fair.
‘Cos today they are fighting with plastic spoons and forks. And with the spirit of Satyagraha. Gosh now that Jyostna has said this, they might even try to acquire metal spoons and forks. And might even resort to the threat of violence.
Don’t bother engaging Ardy or Kabir, they are going to look awfully silly when they as well as the “secular” Kashmiri Muslims get run out of their own countries by their countrymen/co-ethnics. They will still do post-mortems on the failure of these societies that heap blame on the West & India (of course we would turn into bearded gremlins if you gave us money to fight the soviets ! We weren’t doomed from the start of our creation as a Muslim state, Islam is exceptional among religions ! We aren’t some nasty Hindus whose Bharat would by nature turn into a Mad Max dystopia), but they are going to be doing if from Georgetown and Cambridge, MA. where eventually their hosts will tire of them. When I read Kabir/Ardy/Amnonsense it’s a lot like to listening to some crank who believes that Betamax would have triumphed over VHS if it weren’t for the Rothschilds & Illuminati.
@louiecypher
“When I read Kabir/Ardy/Amnonsense it’s a lot like to listening to some crank who believes that Betamax would have triumphed over VHS if it weren’t for the Rothschilds & Illuminati.”
When I read people like you, I am reminded about imbecile buffons who would put words into other people’s mouth and those who waffled between canker and their languid ken; and those who postulated their zany suppositions using their mealymouthed lunge.
That was a hilarious Ardy. Your pet monkey can actually type random words in a nonsensical sequence. Try it yourself. I am sure you can beat him at this game.
What about bigger and better was so hard to understand?
See you at the soiree in Georgetown Ardy ole chap, Mohsin Hamid is going to be doing jello shots off of Arundhati’s tumtum! Feel free to bring the family, just make sure none of them are sporting beards. It is deeply upsetting to young Kabir, he’s not used to the strange ways of our alpine rustics who have not had the benefit of learning Jinnah’s single malt version of Muslim-ness. Just remember to bring back my Betamax copy of Flashdance, I need me some Jennifer Beals
Of course Kashmir is imp to the Kashmiris but would they not prefer peace between ind and pak and then get on with the LOC or siding with whichever side or neither? Peace first, plebiscite with ALL Kashmiris second. Peace is possible if Pak wants it. What happens if K Shias/Sikhs/Buddhists/Hindus/atheists and even liberal Sunnis decide they really do not want a separate state, possibly a future haven for the Taliban or equivalent? Is Pak going to sit quietly while they vote? India is not that vested in Kashmir and is also used to states and religious leaders voting and disagreeing with the center. Do u honestly believe an independent Kashmir would be left alone by the US or China for that matter? Or by rich overseas Kashmiris? By the way, I hope u find documents re Loy Anderson’s wife and the US role in instigating Kash current problems. Cherche the Great Satan! Kabir, do let me know re Mrs Loy A, if u reach the relevant documentation. also do comment on overseas kashmiris perpetrating ongoing wars.
I am amazed Ardy and Weird believe india is involved in Balochistan minus any evidence. I am horrified by the no. of educated Paks who live in Rome or NYC who believe all they have read about Hindus in their govt sanctioned texts and treat me accordingly. Surely these peoeple can go beyond religious or state propaganda, esp if they live overseas? Just about any educated indian will stop a conversation if someone says those Muslims did this. The correction expected is yes, some Muslims and some Hindus did that, not all. This correction happens very often. Most of our school texts hardly mention temple destruction or elaborate on jiziya. Over and done with is the official atttitude.
“Mohsin Hamid is going to be doing jello shots off of Arundhati’s tumtum” Thanks louiecypher, that’s the funniest thing I’ve heard all day:)
I am strangely aroused and yet feel so guilty about it…Just when I got over Nandita Das..
Really, d00d?
So you’re saying that those that do are madrasa-esque?
“That was a hilarious Ardy. Your pet monkey can actually type random words in a nonsensical sequence. Try it yourself. I am sure you can beat him at this game.”
That’s the point Lopus. Nex time, when you asked your pet monket to read for you, teach it to laugh.
Lopus…nex…monket… Your monkey is not paying attention. When was the last time you spanked some sense into it?
@ Lopus
Do monkeys need sense to debate with a Pat Condell’s fan?I doubt it.
“Do u honestly believe an independent Kashmir would be left alone by the US or China for that matter? Or by rich overseas Kashmiris? By the way, I hope u find documents re Loy Anderson’s wife and the US role in instigating Kash current problems. Cherche the Great Satan! Kabir, do let me know re Mrs Loy A, if u reach the relevant documentation. also do comment on overseas kashmiris perpetrating ongoing wars.”
Snark,do you honestly believe an independent India would be left alone by the US or China?Or by rich feudal-lords and venal Indian politicians?
“I am amazed Ardy and Weird believe india is involved in Balochistan minus any evidence.”
I have never brought up Balochistan when discussing Kashmir.Kashmir is the issue here not Balochistan – the Northeast region ( Bodoland,Nagaland) is India’s own Balochistan.The Khalistan movement can also be considered as India’s Balochistan (which India has brutally suppressed with its might).
“am horrified by the no. of educated Paks who live in Rome or NYC who believe all they have read about Hindus in their govt sanctioned texts and treat me accordingly”
Snark, not sure exactly who you are referring to, but on the off-chance that you are lumping me in with is category, let me make clear that I do not belong in it. First of all, I was educated mostly in the US so have not learned anything about Hindus from Pakistani govt-sanctioned texts. Some of my best friends are Indian (In fact often I get along better with Indians than with Pakistanis)–of course, liberal and secular Indians, not BJP types. I consider myself South Asian rather than Pakistani and take great interest in all forms of our broader South Asian culture, including Hindustani music, the lyrics of which often refer to Radha and Krishna, along with other Hindu figures.
I am sorry you have had bad experiences with “educated” Pakistanis. I have had similar bad experiences with “educated” Indians who as soon as they here that I am from Lahore treat me totally differently than just seconds before. What can be said, except that we post-Partition generations have forgotten the richness of our composite culture and treat each other instead with great suspicion. Hopefully, in time people-to-people contacts will change that.
Ardy, I am certainly no Pat Condell fan. I find him an arrogant Eurosupremacist, far from the liberal that trumpets himself to be, but I can’t deny that that some of the issues that he addresses are quite real, having seen them first hand. Just because you dislike someone doesn’t mean they are not capable of speaking the truth.