Finally, the law has changed. Congrats to at the activists in India that made it happen! Our hats off to you.
In a landmark ruling Thursday that could usher in an era of greater freedom for gay men and lesbians in India, New Delhi’s highest court decriminalized homosexuality.
“Discrimination is antithesis of equality,” the judges of the Delhi High Court wrote in a 105-page decision that is the first in India to directly guarantee rights for gay people. “It is the recognition of equality which will foster dignity of every individual,” the decision said.
Homosexuality has been illegal in India since 1861, when British rulers codified a law prohibiting “carnal intercourse against the order of nature.” [Link]
What to speak of homo-sexuality, even hetero-sexuality is a taboo topic in India.
Is greasing palms a homosexual or heterosexual act?
Usually an autosexual one. Or digisexual. Or svamaithunik, or atmamaithunik perhaps.
I am sure there is some British era law against greasing palms. Can we get that repealed from the IPC code as well, since Indians are unable to grease palms with that law in the books?
Yeah, the question is, how high do they have to be?
Please. Are India’s ganja laws ever enforced?
Ever go to the kumbhamela when all the holy potheads come down from their Himalayan caves?
Desi uncle, complete with accent, explains purani Bharatiya sanskriti regarding THE GURU, THE DISCIPLE and THE MEDICINE here;
http://thefreshscent.com/2007/02/28/buying-ganja-in-india/
maybe not at all. its the token gesture that counts
“Funny. Homosexuality was (and still is) illegal but open man-on-man public displays of affection are everywhere in India. I guess it’s like their marijuana laws. Illegal but not enforced.”
Last I checked affection does not equal homosexuality.
That’s the point Begum Bi. Are IPC 377 against homosexuality ever enforced?
One of the arguments the NAZ foundation used was that gay sex was accepted in India before the British came, and the Indian government claimed this at the UN Human Rights Council.
This is how Goolam Vahanvati, who was then solicitor-general and is now attorney-general, tried to save India’s face before the council as part of its official delegation. “Around the early 19th Century, you probably know that in England they frowned on homosexuality, and therefore there are historical reports that various people came to India to take advantage of its more liberal atmosphere with regard to different kinds of sexual conduct.
“As a result, in 1860 when we got the Indian Penal Code, which was drafted by Lord Macaulay, they inserted Section 377 which brought in the concept of ‘sexual offences against the order of nature’.
“Now in India we didn’t have this concept of something being ‘against the order of nature’. It was essentially a Western concept, which has remained over the years. Now homosexuality as such is not defined in the IPC, and it will be a matter of great argument whether it is ‘against the order of nature’.â€
Also:
While the penalty imposed by Section 377 goes up to life sentence, there is nothing close to it in Manusmriti, the most popular Hindu law book of medieval and ancient India. “If a man has shed his semen in non-human females, in a man, in a menstruating woman, in something other than a vagina, or in water, he should carry out the ‘painful heating’ vow.†Thus, this peculiar vow, involving application of cow’s urine and dung, was meant not only for homosexuals but also errant heterosexuals.
The penalty is even milder if the homosexual belongs to an upper caste. As Manusmriti puts it, “If a twice-born man unites sexually with a man or a woman in a cart pulled by a cow, or in water, or by day, he should bathe with his clothes on.’’
Since Manusmriti was written at a time when bath generally meant taking a dip in a river or a lake with other members of the same gender, the penalty of making a homosexual bathe without taking off his clothes was probably designed to avoid the embarrassment of his being sexually aroused in public.
In another indicator of the liberal Hindu heritage, Kama Sutra, a classic written in the first millennium by Sage Vatsyayana, devotes a whole chapter to homosexual sex saying “it is to be engaged in and enjoyed for its own sake as one of the arts.†Besides providing a detailed description of oral sex between men, Kama Sutra categorizes men who desire other men as “third nature†and refers to long-term unions between men.
I find it interesting that folks who cry foul about Manusmriti’s views on women, then use the same “liberal Hindu heritage” text to support the argument for gay sex. So now maybe Manu may not be all that bad!
As a lot of people pointed out, legalizing the act won’t necessarily make society accepting… but I think the important part is that it is a first step.
Additionally, it will benefit a lot of people. Just being legal will allow people working to care for HIV positive people to be able to discuss various sexual practices including homosexuality. It will allow people to openly speak to their doctors without fear of being arrested, and so forth.
Going from people being afraid they could be sent to jail to being worried about the reactions of family and friends is a big step. It may not seem like it, but imagine trying to meet a lover and feeling being arresting, beat up, or harassed by police.
Having legalization will set the ground work for organizations to work towards more rights and creating a society where they can be more open. Anywhere you look, human rights movements have taken a long time and a lot of hard work to achieve their goals. I think it it is really exciting to see this important step happening in India.
Well, he did put the anus in Manusmriti…
What is natural about inserting one’s penis into the anal orifice of another male?
I’d like to know who ever got arrested for having “gay sex” in India. I doubt that it is widespread (pun intended). Meaning, while gay people getting married and adopting kids has been, up until recently, unheard of in India, India has is not what I would call a “hetero-normative” place or culture.
Take hizras for example, they have long functioned as sex workers (many have intact lingams). Hizras, whether sex workers or not, openly and unabashedly flirt with male passengers on trains across India, and the passengers flirt back.
India’s “flirt culture” is not heteronormative at all, and yes, though India may not have a “dating culture” it does have a flirting and innuendo culture – to the max.
As mentioned before, while they may not be “gay” in the sense of wanting to settle down with and raise kids with another man, sexual behaviour between the same sex is not uncommon in India’s youth, probably due to the fact that dating between opposites is not allowed.
Have any of these kids got arrested for “unnatural acts”?
India is “hetero-normative” only when it comes to shaadi time.
My hunch is that other traditional cultures where dating is not the norm and genders are segregated, are similar.
Things will continue as they are (homo and same sex normative) but this might help gay couples who want to marry and settle down with kids.
Excellent question, Oral Roberts!
Here’s one example which got some media attention thanks to advocacy groups. Harassment of gays for bribes or sexual favors by cops is not uncommon, and the repeal of these portions of 377 provides gays with legal protection, although not from the social ostracism.
@21: The Rediff article is priceless also because homosexuality is very common, even accepted, among Muslims, particularly sex between older Muslim men of authority and teenage boys. Given the power structure there, it is probably not consensual. The novel Kiterunner documents this trend in Afghanistan, and it is well-known in Kerala. Many of the younger Muslim League leaders in Kerala are said to have come up via the bedrooms of senior leaders.
The church of course has its altar boyz.
And this from the previous post is worth highlighting:
The penalty is even milder if the homosexual belongs to an upper caste. As Manusmriti puts it, “If a twice-born man unites sexually with a man or a woman in a cart pulled by a cow, or in water, or by day, he should bathe with his clothes on.’’
That sort of hints at the power equation in Hinduism as well.
I would say the religious leaders doth prothesth thoo muth.
“Take hizras for example, they have long functioned as sex workers (many have intact lingams). Hizras, whether sex workers or not, openly and unabashedly flirt with male passengers on trains across India, and the passengers flirt back.”
Hijras face a ton of discrimination, and many are disowned by their families. Most hijras become sex workers because their ‘traditional’ forms of work (i.e. a religious one) are diminishing, but discrimination keeps them from holding normal jobs in society, hence many turn to sex work or begging for some kind of income.
Most people I know don’t talk about how ‘fun’ it is to flirt with hijas, but rather try to avoid them if possible (seeing as how they can be very pushy in begging for alms).
“With Respect to Sex: Negotiating Hijra Identity in South India” by Gayatri Reddy is an interesting ethnography on of the lives of Hijras.
Precisely my point. Segregation of men and women, as well as enforced celibacy, gives rise to same-sex sexual behaviour, not neccessarily “gayness” as we know it.
But like you said, given power dynamics and age difference, much of it may not be consensual. We know in the case of the Catholic Church scandals, boys were manipulated physchologically, molested and raped.
However, consensual same-sex sexual behaviour takes place in those and similar cultures due to the segregation and enforced “celibacy” as well. This is something of an “open secret” in India. It doesn’t take Einstein to figure out such behaviour would be the natural result of culturally or religiously enforced segregation and celibacy. Duh.
Of course those men and boys (and women and girls) would never consider themselves “gay”.
I think this might have been part of the reasoning behind the concept of child marriges. Get them legally wed before they start “dabbling”.
“However, consensual same-sex sexual behaviour takes place in those and similar cultures due to the segregation and enforced “celibacy” as well. This is something of an “open secret” in India. It doesn’t take Einstein to figure out such behaviour would be the natural result of culturally or religiously enforced segregation and celibacy. Duh.
Of course those men and boys (and women and girls) would never consider themselves “gay”.”
Out of curiosity, do you consider men being affectionate with men on the street (i.e. holding hands) to be part of this same-sex sexual behavior? Just wondering since you made that comment earlier.
OK, the people that you know are true and the 100 plus train rides I have taken in India are false.
Please forgive me for lying.
My bad.
“Please forgive me for lying.”
Didn’t say you were lying.. just offering a different experience.
Sometimes it is. Sometimes it isn’t. That depends on whether it is, or not.
” Out of curiosity, do you consider men being affectionate with men on the street (i.e. holding hands) to be part of this same-sex sexual behavior?
Sometimes it is. Sometimes it isn’t. That depends on whether it is, or not.”
So can you let me know what same-sex sexual behavior is the norm in India? I’m not really sure what you are referring to. (I can assume, but you know what they say about assuming….)
Umm, PG, what’s your point?
My point is:
The sexual “constructs” we grew up with in modern and post-modern USA do not apply to India.
We might assume that a person who engages in “same-sex sexual behaviour” is gay, in the way that we know the term “gay”. They may be, and they may not be. They just may be engaging in same-sex sexual behaviour because that is the only socially accepted outlet for them.
I’ll give another example: I have never, ever, ever seen a husband and wife in India engage in cuddling, playing footsie or sitting on each other’s laps while watching TV with their joint family members.
It is in general not considered acceptable behaviour.
However, I have seen mothers and sons doing just that – why? Its considered acceptable behaviour.
We are people and we do what we are allowed to do. We respond to reward and punishment. We are highly conditioned by our cultures. Every last one of us.
Different cultures have different rewards and different punishments. What is acceptable here, may not be there, and vice versa.
Everyone wants PHYSICAL AFFECTION. The body and mind yearns for it. If we can’t get it from our hubbies or we can’t hang with the opposite sex, well, we will get it where we can — from the socially accepted outlets.
Not all forms of physical affection are sexual in nature, of course. But they release the same endorphins!!!
I’ll let you come to your own conclusions.
Mine is: humans like to get their endorphin/hormone rushes on.
(Oxytocin is released during orgasm, childbirth and breast-feeding.)
Ok, and the relevance of this pathbreaking discovery to the repeal of these parts of 377 is?
Past the age of 10, that would be considered seriously weird in any society.
What I still don’t understand is exactly how you can equate physical affection with sex/sexual behavior. Being physically affectionate with your family/friends like leaning on then, holding hands, etc… just doesn’t seem like sexual behavior to me. It sounds like physical affection.
I think that in American culture there is a tendency to equate all physical affection between adults with a sexual relationship, but I think that is a false equation, and one based on American cultural perceptions of norms. Here kissing or hugging a small child is seen as normal, but two male friends holding hands is seen as sexually charged. Also there are strange double standards for males and females. Female friends can link arms and walk down the street, or share a bed without being automatically seen as lesbians… but if men engage in the same physically closeness/proximately with their friends it is more often assumed that they are ‘gay’.
From your argument so far, it seems that you see physical affection between adult friends or adult family as a replacement for a sexual relationship they cannot have, were I don’t see how you can assume that said physical affection is sexually charged or a ‘replacement’ for a sexual relationship at all rather than a normative way of showing your affection for family and friends.
Not where I was (the Hindi-belt, Cow-belt)!
Oh Puhleeze. Weird might be renormalized for the crowd you hang out with, but that’s not representative of the norm. Don’t extrapolate outliers as the average. Your comments about hijras being welcomed and treated with friendliness and affection is also not representative.
In any case, I have no idea what your half baked and marginally correct sociology has to do with the fact that 377 was sent packing by the Delhi HC, as it should have been. (and yes, its statutes would be considered regressive even in the “modern and post modern” west)
Where did I say that? I said they were flirted with on trains and bought for sex.
LinZi, I’m not saying that ALL same-sex affection is sexual in nature. Some of it is, though, and some of it is definetly “surrogate” for opposite-sex affection that is not socially acceptable.
Not all forms of opposite-sex affection is sexual in nature either.
My parents hug and kiss in front of me and hold hands, is it sexual in nature? They are not the types to do anything sexual in public, so, in my opinion, no, it’s not. Its normal.
I also hug and kiss both my mom and dad.
Since all of this is/was socially acceptable to us, no one had to fill the void and become a surrogate for someone else.
I’m not saying the ma-beta sambandha is sexual in nature, but I do say it is a type of surrogate. Not a sexual surrogate, but a PDA surrogate.
Just one woman’s opinion based on years of in-field observation and analysis.
So is PDA a norm in all societies for humans that necessitates a surrogate in cases where ‘normal’ PDA is suppressed?
The most thumbs-upped comment on NYT:
Seriously, do you all have to engage with Pardesi Gori every time she presents her opinions? It’s the same thing over and over again.
Pardesi Gori 101 1. Indian Hindus are sexually repressive of heterosexual relationships. 2. Women are in loveless marriages, and find their sexually-tinged or outright incestuous love from their sons 3. Bahus in India are nothing more than indentured slaves 4. All the Jamais are also sexually repressed so they go out and “eve tease” (sexually molest) women on the streets 5. Goris should not marry into Indian families because Indians treat their women and especially bahus like crap. Worse than crap, in fact. 6. Indian men are notorious for being controlling and sexually molesting women
Now some new points today 7. Because of being sexually repressed, in addition to eve teasing, Indian men engage in behavior that is of teh geigh 8. These men also flirt with transexuals, which is a version of teh geigh.
Basically, Indian men are abusive, transsexual, equal opportunity rapists who also sleep with their mothers.
That’s Pardesi Gori in a nutshell. For the love of Baghwan, learn this list and stop engaging with her.
Although, I will admit that I enjoy reading her only because she is so completely nuts. The same way I enjoy watching case studies of schizos.
I’ll say this — how it is socially acceptable to express non-sexual PDA’s with one’s children of any age but not with one’s spouse is something that warrents analysis — wherever on the globe it appears — East, West, North or South.
If anyone has any “theories” on the matter, please share. I’m open to learning.
PG, what is your opinion on the practice of wanton frottage, with scant regard to gender, by bonobos that you observed during your time in the African jungles? And don’t even get me started on the freakshow that is the eunuch zebras…
“Although, I will admit that I enjoy reading her only because she is so completely nuts. The same way I enjoy watching case studies of schizos.”
I think lots of people enjoy her for that reason… indeed engaging in “Pardesi Gori spotting”. And of course, she does enjoy the attention as well. In fact, she enjoys quite a level of [in]famy, recognition, and attention for her comments. It sort of reminds me of reality t.v…….more outrageous= more attention.
Hijda Ishtyle
An (all too rare) great day for freedom in India–kudo’s to Delhi’s High Court.
I’m going to ignore that blatantly racist remark.
LinZi and Not Again, glad I could entertain you. I do enjoy amusing people and making them laugh. Some friends have told me I should go into stand-up, but I’m not that brave.
By the way, I’m not against non-desis shacking up with desi men. In fact, I’m quite open to it for myself right now.
I’m watching “EK RISHTAA” as I type this. Several people have told me I look like Karishma Kapoor and although I don’t find her particularly attractive, she does look good in this film.
If anyone here finds her attractive, hit me up.
Don’t, PG, don’t! Think of the silverbacks!
GALVA
Gay and Lesbian Vaishnava Association
Website:
http://www.galva108.org/
From their site:
And;
Bi Begum, Please do not blame Abrahamics for the anti-gay feelings in society–you will only upset some carefully constructed coalitions. Hindus are bad, remember.
Rob, where did I mention Abrahamics?
They are “present” in their “absence.” Please to read Derrida.
Mmmm… strawman, anybody? Don’t be shy, there’s enough of them to go around. I’ve heard that they make excellent flame bait.
PG, meet rob. rob meet PG. Match made in heaven.
PG, rob has issues with his dark skin color (mostly because of his mother’s issues with it) so he has a thing for light skinned girls. So as a Karishma look alike, you are already in. Now if you can make yourself look like a Russian hooker, you will be completely in. Best of all, he doesn’t eve tease. He does it classy-style with money on an hourly basis. So modern, yaar!
Invite me to the wedding!
I feel oppressed by the implicit sanction against shouting to the rooftops–“great, gays are decriminalized.” Let liberty and freedom reign, IMHO. And, yes, it’s (large %’s of) Muslims and Christians in India that are against freedom for gays. Why is that something that has to be hidden? It’s true. I think it can be dealt with; I’m no extremist. Some of my brothers and sisters on the “Hindu right” are also against gay rights, I admit that and am not trying to cover it up, but our (Hindu right) movement is very diverse and those of us with more of a sense of the Vedic traditions are not onboard with anti-gay crap.
That is ridiculously mean-spirited, and actually I’m OK with my skin-color, even if I joke about it at times. So is my Mommy, truth be told. I don’t actually use “fair and handsome,” that was a joke. Seriously, I’m not that unbalanced. LOL.