South (West) Asia

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I’ve been transfixed for the last three days by the news coming out of Pakistan’s neighbor to the west, Iran. And I’ve really really wanted to blog it, but honestly, there just isn’t a desi angle.

Unlike Burma, which is similarly just outside the region, South Asian countries don’t play a large role in Iranian politics, and what’s happening in Iran is unlikely to have direct consequences for either Afghanistan or Pakistan. While Surinder Singh Karkar played an important role in the Burmese democracy movement, there seem to be no desis involved in the Persian protests; a difference most likely due to the fact that there are close to 1 million Burmese desis and only a few thousand desis in Iran:

Between the late 19th and early 20th centuries, many wealthy Parsis began to travel to Iran to revive the Zoroastrian faith and traditions among the stagnating Zoroastrian community in Iran at the time … In 1950s, more Indians migrated to Iran and settled primarily in Tehran. They consisted Sikhs and some Gujaratis. In the 1960s and early 70s, about 10,000 Indian Doctors, Engineers and Teachers moved to Iran as a response to the open policies initiated by the Shah of Iran, but most of them left Iran after the Iranian revolution.

Now, there are several hundred people each concentrated in and around Tehran and Zahidan, primarily engaged in various businesses. A majority are still Indian citizens. They continue to maintain strong links with India, especially in matters of children’s education, marriage and property acquisition. [link]

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p>Over at Ultrabrown, Manish does a better job of connecting to recent events from a South Asian perspective, including this useful observation:

Mir-Hossein Mousavi is the political hero of the moment. But he’s recycled, and his reform credentials are suspect, like Nawaz Sharif in Pakistan. He served as prime minister in the ’80s, during which he was implicated in a massacre of 30,000 political opponents, supported seizing hostages from the U.S. embassy and wanted Salman Rushdie killed. [link]

but honestly, there’s still not a lot of brown in these recent events. If you’re interested, I suggest The Lede and Andrew Sullivan’s blog (The Daily Dish, but nobody calls it that) for breaking developments. Juan Cole’s blog has some good analysis, and I suggest FiveThirtyEight for a fairly geeky analysis of why the official election numbers are fairly improbable. Lastly, the best photos I’ve seen (warning, some are quite graphic) are at the Boston Globe.

95 thoughts on “South (West) Asia”

  3. Be warned: Anyone using this thread for either anti-Muslim or anti-Hindu rhetoric will be banned without further warning. Stick to the topic of the post and do no make trollish sweeping generalizations.

  4. but honestly, there’s still not a lot of brown in these recent events

    India has a lot of trade with Iran and is actually looking to build a gas pipeline from Iran through Pakistan to India (although given the involvement of Shia Iran, Sunni Pakistan, China and India, I have no idea how realistic this is), but in general has refrained from making statements about Iran’s internal politics probably to protect their trade interests.

  5. I’m not a particularly sentimental type, but, man, those kids in Tehran standing up to the police make me proud of humanity.

  6. On twitter, I’ve been following an American reporter: http://twitter.com/jimsciuttoABC He’s been right in the middle of things (and he’s a friend). That said, there’s all of the Iranian twittering which I just read in summary on Sullivan’s blog … it’s really amazing what Twitter has done for this crisis. I don’t know if it has a business model to support it, but it certainly has a social value.

  7. it’s really amazing what Twitter has done for this crisis. I don’t know if it has a business model to support it, but it certainly has a social value.

    I am very surprised that Iran hasn’t locked it down yet. They’ve already banned several websites, surely it can’t be that hard to ban twitter (although maybe there are email-to-twitter or other web proxies that people are using). [Unrelated: Part of Twitter’s plans for a business model is to eventually charge corporations like Dell etc. for access – Dell is already using Twitter today to distribute twitter-only discount coupons for products, and Twitter hopes that other companies will eventually want to participate in similar promotions throught authenticated accounts with associated customer reports, targeting, and other services.]

  8. My understanding is that Iran is trying to block twitter and shut down the SMS network, but they’re leaving the internet up, just throttling it enough to make it hard to post photos and video. People are using proxy servers to get around the IP blocks, and they’re yelling from the rooftops when they can’t SMS.

  9. I’ve been transfixed for the last three days by the news coming out of Pakistan’s neighbor to the west, Iran. And I’ve really really wanted to blog it, but honestly, there just isn’t a desi angle.

    Well, I always thought Iranians could somehow fit into the “desi” category. There are parallels between the Zend Avesta and the Rg Veda. Some even say the Rg Veda came from that region (Iran and around). If you study the two ancient cultures there are parrallels.

    And lets not forget the Desi Parsees – there’s your angle right there!

  10. weird fact: ayatollah khomeinis paternal grandfather spent decades in india. this resulted in the slur spread by some in the shah’s intelligence service that he was of indian origin.

  11. Rumors suggest the Iranian regime has brought in thugs from Lebanon to beat up protestors–same people that are bashing desis in Australia. It’s a small world, indeed.

  12. same people that are bashing desis in Australia

    The Lebanese thugs in Australia are Hezbollah now?

  14. The scariest aspect of this is that if Ahmedinajad prevails, you are almost certainly going to see an Israeli attack on Iran. I tend to be pro-Israel, but, whoa, their attacking Iran opens up a number of really scary scenarios. Weird article in asia times attributing this to Shia/Sunni issues. Seems wrong to me but am interested if people have comments.

  17. weird fact: ayatollah khomeinis paternal grandfather spent decades in india. this resulted in the slur spread by some in the shah’s intelligence service that he was of indian origin.

    It was claimed that Ayatollah Khomeini had kashmiri ancestry. Some westernized iranian opponents of the islamic republic, who have aryan racial pretensions, post pictures of a dark/wheaten desi child and claim that was Khomeini’s baby picture. These racial slurs were laughable going by Khomeini’s looks and fooled no one. Actually it is Ahmadinejad who looks like he may have some indian blood.

  18. . Weird article in asia times attributing this to Shia/Sunni issues.

    rob, spengler is a liar. in that i am pretty sure he makes things up. either he makes things up, or he’s stupid. just so you know (i don’t disagree with all of his conclusions, but he makes a lot of things up to come to them).

  20. 12 · Rahul The Lebanese thugs in Australia are Hezbollah now?

    Rahul, when a desi is badly beaten and put in the hospital, why, oh, why is your first move to deny the identity of his or her attacker? You are really weird. I’m very happy that the young people in Iran are standing up for themselves; I don’t think that requires you to stand up for the criminals who are bashing us in Oz.

  21. Actually it is Ahmadinejad who looks like he may have some indian blood.

    He looks totally desi. Very U.P.

  22. Razib, I’ve also thought that Spengler is wrong/bad/false. . . . so, do you have any links to nail him down? (Not that they’re necessary) I’ve always thought that he’s badly off–kind of like reading a fantasy world person! He just does not line up with real life at all!!

  23. rob, follow the links. he is an entertaining writer, but he is producing historically grounded fantasy short stories. unfortunately unlike you most of his readers are too dumb to know any better (i used to get solicited to read an “awesome spengler column!” by my readers via email regularly before i made my lack of respect widely known).

  24. Razib, Just to be clear–yeah, Spengler is a fantasist. I’m embarrassed to read him, but I don’t believe him at all–so, I’m totally with you!

  25. why is your first move to deny the identity of his or her attacker

    You said that “thugs from Lebanon to beat up protestors–same people that are bashing desis in Australia”. Your link says that Hezbollah has been brought in, and following your logic, I am to understand that either the Lebanese thugs in Australia are Hezbollah, or that all Lebanese are Hezbollah. Which is it? Are all Lebanese essentially the same?

    I don’t think that requires you to stand up for the criminals who are bashing us in Oz.

    Yes, my comment asking if the thugs are Hezbollah is transparently an apologia for them 🙂 Is this a rhetorical move you learnt from Fox News?

  26. Spengler writes;

    By addressing the “Islamic world” from Cairo, Obama lends credibility to the Muslim Brotherhood, Hamas, and other advocates of political Islam who demand that Muslims be addressed globally and on religious terms – in contradistinction to nationalists such as Mubarak. Rather than buttress a loyal ally, Obama’s speech undermines him on his home ground. That is a lose-lose proposition. There is a way to rescue the situation, which I now propose to Obama in good faith: change the venue to New Delhi. After all, India’s Muslim population is the world’s third-largest at 158 million, just under Pakistan’s 175 million and Indonesia’s 200 million. Speaking from an Indian podium, Obama could say something like this: I have come hear to address the Muslims of the world on Indian soil to emphasize that there is life after the end of Islam’s status as a state religion. As a minority, Indian Muslims have had to maintain their communal life without a link between mosque and state, and by and large they have succeeded. It has not been easy. On occasion Indian Muslims have been provoked to violence against their more numerous Hindu neighbors, as in the state of Gujarat in 2002, and the Hindu response was horrendous. India’s Muslims have learned that extremists in their ranks will call vengeance down upon their communities. They demonstrated sagacity in their refusal to bury in consecrated ground the Muslim terrorists killed last year in Mumbai. Muslims around the world should look to India as an example of moderation and co-existence. Whether they like it or not, Muslims will remain a minority in the world, a minority that cannot defend itself against the superior technology and military culture of other countries. Its legitimate aspirations must lead it to moderation and compromise. The alternative could be quite nasty. That sort of speech would get the undivided attention of the Muslim world. Anything else will lend credibility to the Islamists and foster triumphalism. Thus far, Obama’s efforts to propitiate the “Muslim world” have made the administration’s future work all the harder. Iran is convinced that the administration needs it to help out in Iraq and Afghanistan, and has all the less incentive to abandon its central goal of developing nuclear weapons. Pakistan is in the midst of a bloody civil war forced upon it by the United States. After Obama leaned on the Israelis to halt settlement construction, the Palestinian Authority’s President Mahmoud Abbas left Washington convinced that Obama will force out the Israeli government of Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu during the next two years. For his trouble, Obama will get more bloodshed in Pakistan, more megalomania from Iran, more triumphalism from the Palestinians, and less control over Iraq and Afghanistan. Of all the available bad choices, Obama has taken the worst. It is hard to imagine any consequence except a steep diminution of American influence.

    Source;

    http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Middle_East/KF02Ak05.html

  27. It was claimed that Ayatollah Khomeini had kashmiri ancestry. Some westernized iranian opponents of the islamic republic, who have aryan racial pretensions, post pictures of a dark/wheaten desi child and claim that was Khomeini’s baby picture. These racial slurs were laughable going by Khomeini’s looks and fooled no one. Actually it is Ahmadinejad who looks like he may have some indian blood.

    Prema, when are you going to learn that India is a vast and diverse country with a similarly vast and diverse range of phenotypes? Everyone from Greeks to Persians to Mongols to Chinese have worked their way through North India and traders from Ethiopia, Egypt, Babylon, and throughout the SE Asian Islands have stopped off in South India and Indians too have mingled throughout the subcontinents entire history. Is it really so hard for you to imagine that Indians can resemble a whole range of ethnicities?

  28. He looks totally desi. Very U.P.

    Don’t know about totally desi, he is not as dark, but Ahmadinejad does look more indian than persian. His father was a blacksmith and gypsies have historically been blacksmiths so I wonder if his indian looks come from a gypsy background. According to Wikipedia his political opponents speculate that he has jewish roots.

  29. Are all Lebanese essentially the same?

    Rahul, you seem like an intelligent enough guy–No, obviously not all Lebanese are the same. That is why there was, for example, a civil war in Lebanon. I’m not sure why you seem to be OK with Lebanese thugs beating Iranian students in the streets in Tehran; I am against it, and if it hurts you that it’s Lebanese doing the beating, so much for your knowledge of world affairs–honestly, what can I say?

  30. 10 · razib on June 16, 2009 12:02 AM · Direct link weird fact: ayatollah khomeinis paternal grandfather spent decades in india. this resulted in the slur spread by some in the shah’s intelligence service that he was of indian origin.

    You’re correct, Genius Razib. His g’father was named “Al-Hindi” because he was from either Lucknow, UP, or Kashmir. I actually read that he was from Lucknow, but revisionist seem to want him to come from Kashmir. IMHO, the revisionists probably think that there is more ethnic prestige in Kashmir than UP.

    BTW, I’ve seen pics of baby Ayatollah Khomeini. He has a “rakshas” (painted beauty mole to ward off evil spirits).

  31. Many Indian communities/castes/ethnic groups have an Iranian fetish. I’ve noticed that many of them claim to be Iranian in origin. However, NO Iranian groups would claim to be Indian in origin! Heck, even Freddy Mercury couldn’t admit to being Indian. But look up “Kamboj” and other common surnames, and the people WANT to wish that they are Iranian.

    Iranians, BTW, some times have a superiority complex to Indians/Pakis/Bangladeshis. But in colleges/univ’s in USA, they are very competitive like Desis, but a little more hot-tempered.

  32. Many Indian communities/castes/ethnic groups have an Iranian fetish. I’ve noticed that many of them claim to be Iranian in origin. However, NO Iranian groups would claim to be Indian in origin!

    LOL, condemn my parents all you want, but they would sh*t over anyone who claimed to be Iranian. Sorry. I have not assimilated my parents’ views, so I am in favor of the Iranian student protestors. My mommy thinks I’m really dumb, but her argument doesn’t go much beyond saying “Those people cannot have a nice government, they are real barbarians.”

  33. I’m not sure why you seem to be OK with Lebanese thugs beating Iranian students in the streets in Tehran

    I thought I was happy about the Indians being beaten up in Australia. As for being OK about the Hezbollah, that’s exactly what I said, Sean 🙂

  34. Many Indian communities/castes/ethnic groups have an Iranian fetish. I’ve noticed that many of them claim to be Iranian in origin. However, NO Iranian groups would claim to be Indian in origin!

    I know some Iranians who have never been to India, they live in USA, and they claim, “we are Indian”. OK just 2. A couple who, after seeing all the similarities between the cultures declare “we were Indian before”. (they are not Muslims but members of a religion which has Krishna as a quoted prophet in their holy book – B’hai faith)

    They always say “we are Indian” when I meet with them.

  35. Is it really so hard for you to imagine that Indians can resemble a whole range of ethnicities?

    the same can be said of iranians fwiw.

  36. (they are not Muslims but members of a religion which has Krishna as a quoted prophet in their holy book – B’hai faith)

    that makes sense. the bahai faith is very explicitly anti-racist. i would assume that zoroastrian iranians would also have more affinity with india because of the large parsi community & the similarities between the holy books as you note above. but persians have the same attitudes toward skin color and beauty as south asians, except what would be light in south asia would be dark in iran, so you can figure out how the great chain of being would shake out…. (muslim persian iranians also sometimes admit racist attitudes toward arabs, and there has been a fair amount of cultural suppression of the arabs of khuzestan)

  38. When will somebody stand up to these Lebanese young male thugs? I’m too wimpy myself, but I am damn willing to pay to put a beating on them, in Oz, in Iran, and in the USA and Canada!

  39. Is it really so hard for you to imagine that Indians can resemble a whole range of ethnicities?

    When are you going to learn that exceptions prove the rule? A random group of iranians in India would stand out like sore thumbs and vice versa. No one with a clue would mistake a crowd picture from Iran for a crowd picture from India. Watch your TV.

  40. When will somebody stand up to these Lebanese young male thugs? I’m too wimpy myself, but I am damn willing to pay to put a beating on them, in Oz, in Iran, and in the USA and Canada!

    And from what you’ve shared with us elsewhere, that’s not the only thing you’re willing to pay for 😉

    Just one question: are you married? or do you plan on marrying a desi woman?

    To Razib: I think the fair skin fetish is found in all tawny to brown cultures. Only the fair skinned cultures have a brown fetish.

  41. @ 3 · SM Intern on June 15, 2009 10:59 PM · Direct link

    “Be warned: Anyone using this thread for either anti-Muslim or anti-Hindu rhetoric will be banned without further warning. Stick to the topic of the post and do no make trollish sweeping generalizations. “

    So it’s ok to have anti-Sikh, anti-Buddhist, anti-Jain or anti-christian rhetoric and so on? :p

  42. Just one question: are you married? or do you plan on marrying a desi woman?

    It seems more than a bit absurd to marry a Thai or Filipina bar girl, so, yes.

  43. I am still confused by why the rigging of the election results was so hamfisted all around! Were the Iranians so spooked by the results of the election in Lebanon that they wanted to seem like they won in an overwhelming sweep?

  44. I for one am gripped by this saga of roving bands of Lebanese thugs, beating desis and those who look like desis. y’all needs to get to the bottom of this issue.

  45. It seems more than a bit absurd to marry a Thai or Filipina bar girl, so, yes.

    why? are they not clubbable? moving on; abhi: thank you for the great round-up, and particularly for the link to the photos on the globe website.

  46. Rahul: cause they lost confidence in their Lebanese thugs; understandable given the confusion in Lebanon, backlash in Oz etc.

  47. It seems more than a bit absurd to marry a Thai or Filipina bar girl, so, yes.

    That’s all that’s available to you for marriage – Thai and Filipina bar girls or Desi girls (bar and non)?

  48. bubba: where did clubbable come into the pict.? Perchance you’re getting confused with Lebanese thugs beating with a club?

  49. rob, your assertions are quite close to being ridiculous. I live in Melbourne and I am frankly puzzled as to why you think Lebanese gangs are the problem here. I understand you might get your kicks trying to stir up sht (I don’t mind shtstirrers at all), but seriously, Iran is going to attack Israel? Knowing fully well what would await them? Please.

  50. I live in Melbourne and I am frankly puzzled as to why you think Lebanese gangs are the problem here.

    Who’s responsible for the latest attacks on desis in OZ? That still hasn’t been made clear from the media coming out of the yellow brick road.