“Excuse me! Can I ask you a question?” the black 40-ish year old man said with a cell phone in his right hand as I walked out of Samosa House in Venice. It was closing time, and I had run in to grab a late night meal. He had been hitting on me earlier when I had first walked to the counter – he said he liked my red heels and dress, asked if I worked in an office, wondered what Indian food he should order. I had responded nicely yet curtly, and he had disappeared as I ordered my food to go. It seemed like he hadn’t ventured far, and was on the phone hovering around the entrance.
“Sure…” I responded hesitantly. The old me would have brushed him off, but I’ve been trying to be nicer this past year.
“Back when I lived in D.C. I always wondered this,” he answered deadpan, phone still open in hand. He didn’t hang up on his call. “What is the difference between Indian and Cherokee Indian?”
I looked at him to see if he was kidding. His expression was not kidding. “Well… uh…” I hesitated. “Cherokee Indians are indigenous to here, to America. And Indians … are from India.” I looked at him and he still looked confused. “You know India? As in the country around the world? On Asia, the continent?”
“Then why are they both called ‘Indian’?”
I bit my lip as I tried to figure out how to best answer his questions. Could he really not know the difference? Slowly, I said, “Well, when Christopher Columbus landed in America, he saw brown people and thought he had landed in India instead. He called the brown people he saw Indian. So it was an accident.”
“Brown people? Christopher Columbus?”
“Look. I’m late. My food is getting cold. I have to go.” I walked quickly to my car shaking my head exasperatedly, hoping he wasn’t following. I realized that there was no point in breaking it down for a man that needed 4th grade educating. And try as I might to be nice to every guy that approaches me… there’s a point where you just have to walk away.
+++
“You know, that’s a myth,” a friend said when I recounted the story to him. He was an activist for the indigenous community, and if anyone should know, I figured it would be him. “The word India wasn’t even around back in 1492. Research shows that the term Indian comes from when Columbus landed he referred to them as ‘una geste in Dios’ or in other words ‘a people of God.'”
Really? Could I have told the told the man at the Samosa House wrong? I did a little digging. First question, what was India called in 1492?
The name, derived from the Indus River (from Sanskrit sindhu, “a river”), goes back to antiquity. Alexander the Great referred to the Indus (Indos), and to the region’s inhabitants as Indikoi, as early as the third century B.C. The name passed from Greek into Latin and thence into other European languages, the earliest citation in English being in 893 A.D. by King Alfred the Great. At the time of Columbus’s voyage, “India” or “the Indias/Indies” was often used to refer to all of south and east Asia. Columbus carried with him a passport from Ferdinand and Isabella of Spain, written in Latin and dispatching him “toward the regions of India” (ab partes Indie) on their behalf. Martin Beheim‘s globe of 1492, which predated the voyage, clearly labels the region as “Indie.” “Hindustan,” also derived from the Indus River, is a much later term, not appearing in English until 1665. In any case, in Spanish that name is not Hindustan but Indostan.[straightdope]
So India was called India or something similar in 1492, when Columbus sailed the ocean blue. Wiki even has a list of names for India pre-1500s. So that part is plausible. Second question then is, what did Columbus write home about the indigenous community?
[Columbus] wrote a letter, in Spanish, detailing his discoveries while off the Azores during his homeward voyage…The original manuscript has not survived, but a printed copy made shortly after its receipt has. In the first paragraph Columbus says “In 33 days I passed from the Canary Islands to the Indies” (en 33 dÃas pasé de las islas de Canaria a las Indias). His first reference to the inhabitants comes in the second paragraph: “To the first [island] which I found I gave the name San Salvador . . . the Indians call it GuanahanÔ (A la primera que yo hallé puse nombre San Salvador . . . los Indios la llaman GuanahanÃ). In all he makes six references to India or the Indies, and four to Indios. Nowhere in the letter does he use a phrase resembling una gente in Dios. [straightdope]
So, I was right when I told the guy that hit on me that Columbus called Native Americans Indians because he had thought he had landed in India. Myth demystified. If anyone ever hits on me with that line again, I know exactly how to answer now. And I’ll have the link to the original letter (English, Latin, and Spanish) to prove it.
+++
I’m interested in hearing (…ok, reading in the comments) the pick-up lines that our Sepia Mutiny readers have received over the years. Not the generic pick up lines, but those that involved some intersection of racialization absurdity such as the one I narrated above. For instance, last summer at the Santa Monica Pier, this black guy walked by and said, “You Indian? Indian is close to nigger…” and this other time at a mall in Virgina a posse of teenage boys said, “Let be your Osama, baby.” Ladies, I want to hear your stories. What words have been used on you?
I prefer to have my ladies lying down, which is why I use putdowns rather than pickups.
Manju and Rob, here’s a pickup line that will work with your republican lady friends. “Try my waterbedding, and I will have you squealing in 90 seconds!”.
Manju,
Yes, my financials are readily available. Just follow your nose.
Taz,
I am only one person and have silenced no person. Perhaps your clarification would have augmented the post. Nonverbal communication > Hi.
Oh, and if it doesn’t work the first time, try it again and again. Sure, it’s obnoxious and disgusting, but the results will speak for themselves.
And in the interests of bipartisanship, here’s something for those guys who solicit lady friends on the other side of the aisle: “Obama.”
young woman speaking here… I think you all need to take a deep breath, step back from la-la land (and i don’t mean los angeles), and look at the world with a little less bitterness and a little more realism. I don’t get annoyed when guys on the street call out stupid shit or when guys have cheesy pick-up lines; although it is objectification, i honestly don’t think it’s that big of a deal. I consider this sort of thing mostly playful and harmless. There are exceptions though, like if it’s a group of guys hitting on you and you’re alone, someone follows you (like a taxi driver still in his car, through the streets, constantly honking), or if it’s something really crass (“you have beautiful eyes” is qualitatively very different from “you have nice nipples”; the former is said with more humor, the latter is just beyond embarrassing and makes me angry). And even when guys use racial or ethnically tinged pick-up lines, I don’t think they’re doing it out of racism, I think they’re doing it out of an effort to get to know you, and they don’t necessarily know what other avenues of conversation to follow. they’re curious. that’s a good thing. As for people asking about ethnic background in non-pick-up contexts, I only get annoyed if they’re all “what? you don’t speak hindi?!” (same as someone above), and they don’t understand that it’s because my family speaks a different mother tongue and i grew up in the u.s. it’s especially annoying if it’s another south asian, ESPECIALLY if they’re straight from desh and supposedly educated.
In the abstract, haha–well-done! 🙂 I’m an anti-torture Republican, though. . . . and, at any rate, my lady friends are more likely to be affiliated with the Sangh than the GOP. >:-)
Anyway… cindy is not my real name… upon finding out what it is, some guys crack jokes about how i must be ‘naughty’… it doesn’t make much sense unless you can figure out what my name is. it’s usually embarrassing though (mostly for the guy).
deloris?
He has got a point. There is little difference in skin color between african-americans and indians.
I call this BS Demondoll. Kristin Kreuk is a chinese-caucasian mix. You are pretending that the white fetish for east asians applies to south asians. It most certainly does not.
Ummm–how to put it–last time I was in Bangkok “on business,” I was far from the only desi guy prowling about. Got the velvet rope dropped on me at a few clubs, though my reading up on it suggests it’s b/c they confuse desis for Arabs.
1: Doesn’t he have a cute accent ? (wtf !?)
2: The darker the berry the sweeter the juice. (speechless)
3: Whoever loses the game treats the other to dinner. (Hmmm. OK. Did you notice you can’t play to save your life ?)
Do pickup lines from matchmakers count?
A n’hood Guju laundry manager gave my phone# (FROM THAT RECEIPT THINGY) to some young widow – who called me drunk one night at 2 am. I wear Polyester now.
Yeah, i like the Indian Sweets and Spices tetrahedrons – and the new shelves they’ve salvaged from iddar uddar.
Interesting thread; regrettable that so much of the discussion has veered off onto how ‘men have it just as bad’ or ‘this is just the way the world is, deal with it’ etc. since this clearly does affect women quite deeply and just what the author didn’t want to happen has happened. Bit aghast to read some of the male comments on this thread but this probably informs why this is such a common experience for many women. I would say that it is to be expected in some scenarios such as a club, bar etc. where you would go bascially to hook up with other people and where obviously this is one (if not very successful way) or initating conversation/contact; but I see it can be irritating to say the least to have to deal with it in regular, daily life at work, on the tube etc. From my experience (which isn’t a lot) and that of my friends (both men and women) men tend handle rejection badly and much worse than women (this might be unfair but it is what I see) given the size of their egos. Objectification of women seems to be one way of handling this preemptorily, since being rejected by something you treat as an object is easier to handle than being rejected by something you treat as a normal human being. Course this is only part of the reason, this happens. What is surprising is that given the high failure rate (at least past the early stages of youth) that such approaches have, why men persist in them; as they tend to turn most women off. Most, if not all professional flirts, seducers etc. will tell you that the best and most successful way to engage a woman you are interested in; is not to come out with these crass pick-up lines/approaches (not that their approaches are any more ‘acceptable’ just not so stupid).
Conrad Barwa, thanks for saying that. I’m really annoyed at how some men have managed to make this post once again ALL about themselves.
I’ve got hit on by all sorts here in Europe, but thankfully I’ve never had racial slurs cast at me. Once in Italy a lad was swimming in the beautiful lake and urged me to ‘join in’. That was cute. I’ve had teenage boys shout stuff in Hindi at me, a language I don’t understand. I just roll my eyes. I’ve also been followed around and touched in my own town by men 2-3 times my age who made some of the vilest remarks. That was seriously disgusting. How hard is it to control yourself, to keep your hands to yourself? I am not public property.
I get all sorts of comments on my looks all the time, from nice women at counters to the GP to creepy guys on the streets. It’s very tiring when people focus on your looks all the time, if you’ve got all sorts of other qualities. It’s a form of objectification.
Well, then, you should try “Want to help take down my minaret, baby?”
From a “New Age” woman:
“Prasad, that’s such a holy name. . .” (swoon)
response I should’ve made if not in shock: “Did you ever hear the name ‘Joe’? As in St. Joseph, that’s a holy name too.”
somewhere i read that day old boys keep their focus on objects longer than faces and girls keep their gaze longer at faces with little or no interest on objects. if that is true, and if that trends into objectification by boys into men, and deobjectification is left to culture (and chance) , would women be willing to go past “soft” objectification to see what else lies beyond such swift pickup lines?
That’s so sweet of you fellas to join the ladies here in solidarity since you all know what it’s like to be one of the beautiful people moving through such a graceless world.
Taz, it’s a mistake not to invite the men to this conversation as they might be a source of excellent come-back lines – they’ve either said them or heard them.
And, oh my, what was the pick-up line that brought Rahul out of lurkerdom?
India, along with China and Brazil, are some of the four most populated nations on Earth, along with the United States, yet so there’s so much ignorance and stupidity in this nation. Pathetic. That being said, I’ve ALWAYS been offended by Native Americans being called “Indian” because they are NOT Indian and they are NOT from India. Secondly, I am REALLY offended when people ask me questions about the Middle East or Arab culture. Uh, no. We are NOT Arab or Middle Eastern, thank you very much.
Why are people so stupid, worthless, ignorant, and pathetic?
and does anyone else think Christopher Columbus was a dumbass for thinking he landed in India back then? I’m sorry, how the hell can anyone mistake Indians for Native Americans? (no, I’m not knocking Native Americans here)
I’m not really an expert on Indian history (although I wish I was), but back in 1492, weren’t there royal kingdoms in India and didn’t they clearly have a DIFFERENT clothing style from Native Americans? And didn’t the New World clearly look different from India? The environment, the animals, the way the people looked… I mean, seriously, come on.
stupid, worthless, ignorant, and pathetic?
Don’t hold back your opinion…seriously isn’t this a little harsh?
some of these pick up lines people are telling are too funny!
In 1492 there was no mass-media of any kind. Not even a newspaper. Those books that were printed generally had no illustrations (engraving didn’t come around until much later.) If you were a European who had never been to India all you would really know about it is that the people are dark.
I studied it in college so it doesn’t really bother me much to be able to answer a question to which I know the answers. They don’t know. Why should they know? Frankly it’s not all that important to them. It’s our culture so we value it. I don’t see why we would expect everyone else to.
I was in club once and a British guy came up to me and started the conversation with “My ex was Indian” this usually puts me at a fetish alert ,especially in a club etc. where he sought me out just because I’m brown. He also added that Indian girls are beautiful and smart
I just took it with a pinch of salt of course.
Incidentally Taz,at Samosa house a guy who was from Indian origin asked my help to pick put food and was all chatty and then he saw I had a male friend with me and he completely stopped talking to me and wouldn’t even give me eyecontact.He was cute though and I was just with a friend. The one thing that does irritate me is that people assume I’m the authority on Bollywood movies and ask me what each and every thing means< why so many dancers? why so much color?>
Oh, and when I go for yoga they ask me Sanskrit phrases of which I’ve very little knowledge.
probably when he called the help center to fix his sat nav system the guy with an indian accent claimed he was in texas. or maybe it was jalebi night at the casino.
thank, rahul. you should try that line on nancy pelosi since there’s no risk of embarrassment. should you, she’ll graciously claim she never heard it.
I had a girl in early middle school ask me when I was going to grow the dot on my forehead. Not sure if she was hitting on me, but she was curious!
(still hasn’t grown in by the way ;))
@ Deaf Indian Muslim Anarchist
Try Africa. People are extremely ignorant of that continent and equating black people with animals and Tarzan make’s Indian and Chinese stereotypes look mild. At least they equate relatively positive things with Asia…like civilization. Not so with Africa –although it had impressive civilizations too. And that double standard has it’s roots in racism thank you very much.
I really haven’t received cat-calls or been hit on that much. Perhaps it’s because of the way I’m dressed: pretty plain. Or perhaps Indians get more attention. (I’m black) I have to admit, black men are bold.
It is a good point to ponder. Columbus must have heard descriptions of East, buildings,people,languages and spices. There must have been some portraits available in Europe of India and China. Marco Polo made vivid descriptions of East around 1300’s. One motive for Columbus’behavior could be he wanted to impress his investors and sponsors, Queen of Spain etc. that the mission was accomplished. He set out to reach India and he reached India,could be a fabrication.
Interesting convo.
As a black American often mistaken for Indian (I have absolutely NO idea why), I’ve gotten some interesting responses from Indian men.
For example, I danced in Diwali one year with my clique in hs (Indian- American girls, and one other black American, waaay lighter than me, btw). So, we’re all at this big stadium in NJ, forget which one, with my friend’s mom, a few other “Aunties”, her cousin visiting from India, dancing, greeting (their) friends… it was a great experience for me. I felt really welcome, way more than I expected to be. So, we’re leaving, and an old guy runs up to our group and starts talking to me, most aggresively, about what, I don’t know, because he was speaking Hindi. My friend’s mom proceeds to rip him a new one… what she said, I don’t know. As he’s walking away, he stops, looks at me, and asks incredulously, You’re not Indian?!?
Now, what was weird about it was, 1) he picked me to harass, out of a stadium full of actual Indian girls, 2) he thought I was Indian, and 3) whatever he was saying, he felt differently about saying it once he found out I wasn’t Indian. Perhaps erroneously, the conclusion I drew was that he had said something disrespectful.
My question is, are dark Indian girls normally verbally harassed in public places? Because, if people are gonna keep mistaking me for one, I guess I should know…
“Excuse me Madam, may I inquire as to which country is suffering in your absence?”
Of course that one got a smile out of me. But I stillndidn’t go into his dukhan and buy anything.
People are ignorant everywhere. The USA certainly does not run a monopoly on that one. Most people in this world concern themselves solely with their family, friends and surrounding environment – in general. I’ve travelled all over the planet and am yet to be impressed with nuanced thinking – anywhere.
No. They are usually savaged behind their backs or passive-agressively, but rarely up front like that.
There’s an assumption here that the old uncle was harrassing this woman aggressively over her skin tone. Being that he was not speaking a language she could understand, thats a huge and unfair assumption.
Perhaps he was complimenting her on something or telling her she reminded him of his grand-daughter or any number of things.
Or, if she was dressed or dancing in a way that could possibly be construed as inconsistent with traditional desi norms of “decency”, maybe he was chastising her.
However, there is no need to assume he was harrassing her. Oftentimes people from other cultures express themselves in ways that appear aggressive, angry and harsh to people from other cultures, when in reality that may just be the normal way of conduction a “conversation” for them.
Seriously, men complaining here? Meet women you know or in an expected setting like a bar; otherwise just be friendly like a normal person. Imagine if from the start of puberty you’ve had strangers constantly imposing their desires on your body when you’re just getting off the school bus/going to work/ getting lunch/ in line with your Dad. It’s already dehumanizing and otherizing–I’m sure to add racial tones to it make it that much worse. Believe me, we know the difference between a person just being a person and interacting with you, and someone who’s skeeving and going to be difficult to get away from. you might think you’re the former, but with all the talk about how you’re entitled to say offensive and aggressive (yes, aggressive) things to us, you have a good chance of being the latter.
Obviously this is of a different nature than most of the stories here, since I’m white and so the dynamics are different, but I thought it would be interesting to note that a whole lot of the harassment I get on the street is racialized too.
For example, when I ignored one guy who called after me, his persistent calls evolved from “Hey, girl!” to “Hey, white girl!” to “Hey, bitch!”
Then there’s the black teen who sat down next to me and some friends on the bench when we were in high school– hewas mostly hilarious because he was so young and awkward and deadpan–and struck up the following conversation:
“Do any of you have black boyfriends?” “Umm, yes…” (shouldn’t have answered, I know) “So you like black dick?” “I don’t think that’s any of your fucking business.” “Oh… well, I like white kitty.” (oh, well in that case, you’ve persuaded me!)
Does it annoy me? Not really. It says much more about the person who is trying out these horrible pick-up lines. The “I love Indian food” line even makes me burst out in laughter because it is so absurd and yet predictable. And I love how Namaste is always said with such self-approval.
And it has also reminded me of my own knee-jerk prejudices. Like the first time I met an Ethiopian and all I wanted to blurt out was how much I loved the food. I squirm now to write it.
deluker, I used the word ‘disrespectful’ on purpose, bc whatever it was, it seemed appreciative… just aggressive.
Best Line Ever, interesting points you make, but just to clarify, I was dressed and dancing in culturally appropriate ways; I wasn’t ‘droppin it’ at Diwali, lol. Also, I mentioned my complexion for illustrative purposes, not because I’m sure he referred to it. To be honest, I had rationalized it as, he felt more comfortable saying certain (potentially) disrespectful stuff to me because I was darker than the people I was with, and, from what I’ve gathered, it would be very easy for a dark-skinned Indian girl to have low self-esteem.
It is a good point to ponder. Columbus must have heard descriptions of East, buildings,people,languages and spices. There must have been some portraits available in Europe of India and China. Marco Polo made vivid descriptions of East around 1300’s. One motive for Columbus’behavior could be he wanted to impress his investors and sponsors, Queen of Spain etc. that the mission was accomplished. He set out to reach India and he reached India,could be a fabrication. Like everything astounding, a sucker backing you up and poor math skills:
Columbus believed the (incorrect) calculations of Marinus of Tyre, putting the landmass at 225 degrees, leaving only 135 degrees of water. Moreover, Columbus believed that one degree represented a shorter distance on the Earth’s surface than was actually the case. Finally, he read maps as if the distances were calculated in Italian miles (1,238 meters). Accepting the length of a degree to be 56â…” miles, from the writings of Alfraganus, he therefore calculated the circumference of the Earth as 25,255 kilometers at most, and the distance from the Canary Islands to Japan as 3,000 Italian miles (3,700 km, or 2,300 statute miles). Columbus did not realize Al-Farghani used the much longer Arabic mile (about 1,830 m).
The true circumference of the Earth is about 40,000 km (25,000 sm), a figure established by Eratosthenes in the second century BC,[9] and the distance from the Canary Islands to Japan 19,600 km (12,200 sm). No ship that was readily available in the 15th century could carry enough food and fresh water for such a journey. Most European sailors and navigators concluded, probably correctly, that sailors undertaking a westward voyage from Europe to Asia non-stop would die of thirst or starvation long before reaching their destination. Spain, however, having completed an expensive war, was desperate for a competitive edge over other European countries in trade with the East Indies. Columbus promised such an advantage.
< end of excerpt>
Also, he did not read all the renaissance entacted blogs, and marco polo’s flickr photostream, otherwise, he would have known.
Most of the complains I see here are non-Indians confusing Indians of being of a different culture/nationality. I grew up in Bombay and have been in California for a few years now, and strangely enough – more Indians mistake me of being from south america or the middle east, than do non-indians.
Besides everyone likes to play the ‘ I bet i can guess your nationality game’. Some are just not very good at it !
and does anyone else think Christopher Columbus was a dumbass for thinking he landed in India back then? I’m sorry, how the hell can anyone mistake Indians for Native Americans? (no, I’m not knocking Native Americans here)
What I read the just before departing at Port of Palos in 1492, Christopher C. went to B & N at the dock and inquired about Marco Polo’s photojournal, and some magazines (you know). He had limited cash, and he only bought the magazines, you know. Those magazines also with fermented milk did a number on him.
116 Thank you Conrad!
Oh yes, I always hear the same pick ups:
1) “You know, my ex was black.” (One guy told me that around 10 times, each time he saw me. It was strange.) 2) People start talking about how much they love rap music, Bob Marley and such. Then claim they are blacker because I’m not into NWA or reggae heavily enough. Next they ask me out. (Um…no) 3) Normally I don’t dig black chicks but I like you. (Um okay. Walk away…) 4) Some guys will immediately revert to…I guess it would be called ebonics and try to hi-five me while suggesting we go out on a date.
Q: Aye girl! You mexican or something? A: Something like that
Q: (Looking at full or part of name) Where from down south are you?!?! A: Colorado
And not a pick up line but in an elementary school, Teacher: Everyone write a family essay for Black History Month Me: Awkward!
Your indigenous friend has been listening to too many feel-good myths. You basically got the origin of “Indian” (Native American) right.
I’ve posted a few additional details here:
http://www.bluecorncomics.com/2009/05/indian-comes-from-indies.html
Best one I got in Philly? “Hey there Slumdog Millionaire girl, why are you running so fast?”
I had no idea we were so cultured down here 🙂
i’m pretty sure it’s because women, having been (relatively more) subjected to ridiculous pick-up lines over the years, have realised that they are pointless, ineffective, annoying, and oftentimes a turn-off. men, having not been on the receiving end of them as much, will prob. take many years to realise this (such that we women will have to wait many years for the pick-up lines to taper off). yes, pick-up lines are terrible – i much prefer it when men get down to the point – “fancy a shag?” “i think i want to marry you” and “i’d like to buy you a samosa” 😉
From White guys: “I really like rap”
From White guys who are trying to impress: “I really like jazz”
From clueless White guys “l’d love to date a black woman,(Asian woman, Indian woman, insert ethnicity here, it doesn’t matter because it’s about the cultural tourism, not about making a connection with a human being”)
From Black guys “Ooh, girl, are you creole? You got that good hair.”
From tasteless Black guys “I bet I have a bigger dick than that white boy you’re with”
like this guy, manju?
have u tried picking up in 140 chars or less, yet?
damn! i didnt know tweeterland wwas so hormone charged. one would have expected the LADIES to be a little more temperate. she said… LADIES :-DD
The true circumference of the Earth is about 40,000 km (25,000 sm), a figure established by Eratosthenes in the second century BC,[9]
Not to be a terrible geek but Eratosthenes was off from this number by a good 6000km. He should get no better than a D really. Now if you take Aryabhata for instance, …..