This Sunday, I woke up to an email from a girlfriend who is not Desi. She said that there was a really thought-provoking article in the New York Post, which reminded her of some of our conversations. She thought I might enjoy it. Enjoy it? I could have written parts of it. It was about Dating While Brown– and dating other Browns, to be specific.
The piece was called, “MELTING NOT: Why Young People Like me Started Dating Within our Race“. In it, NYP reporter Raakhee Mirchandani wrote a sensitive, honest explanation of her views on love– and I can just imagine the nastiness she might be encountering because of it.
It’s never easy to put yourself out there, so I salute her for doing so. Besides, with this issue, you can’t win. You date outside your community and you’re either a sell-out, desperate or a coconut. Date within it and you’re insular, insecure and biased. Ugh. Can’t we all just get along? I hope we can remember to be kind to one another, as we discuss an issue which affects all of us, albeit in different ways. We’ve got to let love rule, or whatever Lenny screams. On to the story.
::
I know so many friends, whose experience mirrored this:
Growing up, the man in my dreams was a mystery; he was white, he was tall, he was dark, he was slick. He was always handsome. In my fantasy it didn’t matter if he was Catholic or Muslim, European or African, if he ate pigs or worshipped monkeys. It didn’t matter if he understood that I came from a rich tradition of Indian Hindus who were strict vegetarians, quietly conservative, obsessively dedicated to family and maniacal in their love for cheesy song-and-dance movies with mediocre acting and music.
And so when we met, freshman year at Boston University – the street smart Eastern European with a gorgeous smile, big heart and wicked sense of humor and the artsy Indian girl with a penchant for big hair, Bollywood and Biggie -it seemed like the perfect cross-continental match.
Ah, Biggie. I pour some of my Robitussin with Codeine out for you.
But somewhere along our six years together, the Indian girl from Jersey, who had naively promised him Catholic children, steak dinners and consistently defended his refusal to hang with my family as a simple difference in opinion, had a change of heart. And he did, too.
I remember him looking at me on an evening not far from our last and saying, “It’s like all of a sudden you became Indian.” In a way so quiet I didn’t even realize it was happening, the brown from my skin must have seeped in and colored my heart.
That line just slays me. I project emotions and explanations all over it. Is it accusatory? A blurt of hurt? Is becoming “Indian” a negative thing? The defending “his refusal to hang with my family” is also poignant. America may be a country of individuals, but most of us who are of South Asian descent are tightly tied to our families, for better or for worse. No one wants to be caught in that vise between one love and another.
Surprisingly, I’m not the only one. While the rate of intermarriage among races increased over the past half-century, the last decade has seen a reversal – particularly among Asians and Latinos. According to a Ohio State University study, from 1990-2000 the number of Hispanics marrying outside their race fell from 27% to 20%, while Asian intermarriage dropped from 42% to 33%.
I’m no Razib, but this matches what I feel like I’m witnessing around me (and yes, this is the same stat Abhi mentioned in this post). At one point, if I saw a second- or third-generation Asian-American with an Asian spouse, I was surprised, because so many of my friends had married “out”. Now, I see a reversal of that. Maybe it’s easier for us to find each other, thanks to the internets. Then again, maybe Ohio State and I are full of it (highly probable– I’m supposed to be a Michigan fan).
After brushing it off for so long, many of my relatives and friends are listening to that nagging voice in our collective heads. You know, the one that sounds like a hybrid of your mom/dad/grandparent/aunt/uncle/neighbor-in-the-old-country telling you in heavily accented English, “Have you found anyone yet, dahling? Can we introduce you to Mr. Kapoor’s son? He is doctor. Ven vill you finally give us good news?” Despite my better efforts to buck the traditional Indian girl inside me – glossy black locks turned to bleached blond in a weak moment of teen angst; pre-med was never an undergraduate option and much to my parents chagrin; I have always favored copious amounts of worthless costume jewels over precious museum-grade family heirlooms – I discovered that I’m not really that much of a rebel after all.
Yeah, me neither. Well, except for the remaining defiantly single at 34 bit. Maybe it’s because I’ve retired all five pairs of my Doc Martens, but I don’t feel like a rebel…until grateful letters from some of you label me as such; “I’m so glad there’s another Desi girl who isn’t married…I’m 26 and the pressure is horrid!”
Note to 26-year old: don’t allow yourself to be rushed in to a damned thing. The people who nag you to get hitched now won’t be sympathetic to you if you separate or get a divorce. Then you’ll be THAT girl, the one with the “past”.
Even if you end up happily married, they will never stop butting in to your life, because sometime after your wedding reception commences, they’ll be demanding a schedule for when you’ll be procreating offspring, or where you’ll be purchasing a home. As I like to say to my long-suffering Mother: “If I don’t get on that merry-go-round, I don’t have to worry about vomiting.”
You third-generation tykes owe us big. We smug singles are facing the wrath of our community now, so that one day you can actually take advantage of this “30 is the new 20” bullshit, and go to weddings, funerals, housewarmings or any other Desi-infested event without cringing, or hiding from the Auntie mafia in your car. Don’t worry about thanking us, just hook us up when we’re 65, since Social Security isn’t going to do it.
Back to Raakhee:
During the Obama campaign, commentators asked if younger people were growing up in a colorblind society. I certainly hope it’s a more tolerant one – but not blind. Living in harmony doesn’t mean camouflaging our differences, or denying that we have any. And while I would never judge an Indian person who chose an interracial relationship – love in whatever way it comes is flawless – I know that I could never do it again.
I could never do it in the first place, mostly because of what I’ve bolded below:
Relationships are hard enough, no matter who you love. Maintaining and sustaining them requires a combination of courage, compromise and dedication. But there’s a comfort in building a solid foundation with someone who comes from a similar place. I don’t want to have to explain the minutia of my complex culture, hoping for both understanding and approval. I want to begin on equal footing, roots already firmly planted in a common garden.
I’m more of a wanna-be geek, so my declaration contained something like, “I want someone pre-loaded with all this software, I don’t want to have to install anything”. Please don’t tell me if that makes no sense. 🙂 Just focus on my alternate line, “I ain’t no one’s cultural tour guide.” Classy, I know. That almost sounds like I hate non-Desis. Not at all. In some of those memorable instances, I desperately didn’t want to be the object of someone’s fetish or part of that one guy’s UN fantasy which involved…well, you get the picture. Even if the rare non-Desi guy who expressed interest didn’t fall in to one of those two weird categories, I worried that having to explain every little thing or answer a plethora of questions would become exhausting.
Yet I know friends and family who feel the exact opposite of such sentiments (well…not the UN thing). They love sharing who we are with their significant others from different backgrounds. They relish building bridges by spreading the Brown love and Gods bless them for it. I just can’t do it, Captain. To each, our own, right?
What’s right for me or Raakhee isn’t even right for some of my immediate family members. While Raakhee found her prince, two of my girls got no love or interest from boys within our community; that’s not an exaggeration. I could write horrifying posts about the Desi boys who met them and said, “You’re much darker than I thought you would be”, or similar ugliness. I had a Cross Colors shirt in the early 90s which said, “Love see no color”. We could easily amend it to: “Stupidity see no color.” A douche is a douche, regardless of race.
Those two beautiful women are now marrying outside of our community, and I’m glad for it. I’m not implying that only people who strike out with brown go hunting elsewhere. I’m just mentioning two specific family members who are marrying amazing people and that matters more than skin. If brown boys/girls aren’t feeling you, to hell with them. If you only find that “amazing” with someone whose Mom makes sambar too (guilty), then more hand soap to you. We each need to make this decision for ourselves (are you reading, 26-year old?? You’re fine! Stay strong!).
I’m the kind of girl who is as comfortable worshipping multi-armed deities as she is worshipping at Chanel. The kind who can easily wrap herself in to a 5-yard sari in a public bathroom but much prefers Uggs and leggings. Certainly the kind who washes down a spicy curry with a glass of Johnny on the rocks.
Yeah, I’m just going to state for the record right now that I could never put a sari on in a public bathroom. I don’t even like to put a sari on in my current apartment, because the full-length mirror is unfortunately near where I put on and take off shoes, near the door. Eeek. Oh, Raakhee, you are a better ladki than I. While you’re not asking, I also like Black and coke instead, thanks!
That makes me Indian and American, and the truth is, it’s easier when someone understands the first part of that as much as the latter.
YES. I agree, 100 percent. At the same time, I have noticed that interracial couples where both parties are from minority or “ethnic” backgrounds–which emphasize family– do seem to find some common ground.
So now I’ve taken the UPS approach to dating: What can brown do for me?
More than I ever thought.
Here comes her happy ending:
My current boyfriend, Agan, is the kind of Punjabi prince dreams are made of. He held me last year when Bombay burned and I broke. He high-fived me when “Slumdog” took home eight golden trophies and I squealed. He rolls his eyes when I talk about Yankee Stadium like it’s The Bronx version of the Golden Temple. He’s from the left (wrong) coast, you see; not everything can be Disney fairytales.
But he understands without questioning that I will live at home with my parents until I get married. That family obligations trump any evening plans we may have made. Without my suggesting it, he mentioned that when we grew up and had a house of our own, there would be room for both sets of parents, his and mine. I was enamored.
In that moment I knew why it never worked between me and anybody else. I had underestimated the power of my parenting, the grip of my culture and the strong but subtle shades of India that I reflect.
In less than a year he has earned his way into my parents’ hearts, fielding near daily text messages and e-mails from my mother, approving but curious glances from my father and even joining my brother in a weekly basketball league. It’s as if they already knew each other. And in a way they did.
Your mother can text?! Mine thinks GChat is annoying. Lucky you! Speaking of superior communication products made from Goo, I GMailed Raakhee to ask if anything important had been cut from the story. Sepia Mutiny: we’re like the DVD with deleted scenes! Here’s what she had to say:
What we had to cut from the essay which I thought was important was the idea that being Indian was something I had to grow in to. Not in a conscious way, but something I had to sort of become comfortable expressing. And just being.
Also, I grew up in a way I imagine many desi chicks did who are my age (27); I was a nerdy, hairy (omfg the ‘stache, the unibrow, the horror!) and completely convinced that I would never, ever date. I thought Indian guys wouldn’t get me and all the others would think I was gross. In a way, despite my ridic inflated sense of self (and trust me, i thought i was some super hot shit when i was younger!!), when it came to dating and relationships, I didn’t think I was good enough to date either, brown or white.
Oh, if that isn’t Junior year of high school revisited, I don’t know WHAT is. Sigh.
Back to the article, for the last two paragraphs:
Despite the countries we share, we are still different. His family is Sikh. He wears a turban. Mine are Hindu and we don’t accessorize. But the fundamentals are the same; family first and everything else next.
As usual my parents were right, bless their darling immigrant hearts. It turns out I am both New Delhi and New Jersey, and the man in my dreams finally has a face to reflect that.
I’m happy for you, Raakhee, the same way I’m happy for anyone who finds their lobster. Everyone deserves the bliss that is real love. We may have different desires, preferences, approaches to searching for it, or ways to label it, but in the end, we each want the same thing, no matter with whom we may find it.
Once you figure it out the desi non-desi spouse question, it’s not over. If you picked Desi, you have kids and try to figure out how much desi they need to be. Language, religion, tradition, etc. matter to some of us. So, our kids, 20 years from now will be going the same shiznit?
Razib,
by any chance, do you know what the stats look like for South Asian-other race marriages?
148 · Upbhransh said
Ba-dum-pum. 😉
I think the reason it does it that Indian guys arent looked at as desireable by females of other races the way Indian girls are looked upon as desireable my males of other races.
the outmarriage rates are the same for both sexes. i’ll leave it at that and not cast personal aspersions 😉
by any chance, do you know what the stats look like for South Asian-other race marriages?
no. but you should check preprints on the ssrn site. i wouldn’t be surprised if they were lower for brown-on-brown, even correcting for all other variables.
152 · umair said
This would happen even if you didn’t pick desi! It’s not like if you had ‘half-desi’ kids, they wouldn’t want to explore the desi ‘half’ of them. They would too, and then a certain percentage of ‘progeny’ from outmarriages will marry in (replace desi with ‘black’ and see Obama) and then there will be three-quarter desis, etc. The cycle will repeat with other ‘fractional’ desis. Life wasn’t meant to be easy.
to quote George Lopez “too late, I already got aspersions all over me” 😉
I think the reason it does it that Indian guys arent looked at as desireable by females of other races the way Indian girls are looked upon as desireable my males of other races.
ok, to be fair, i think there’s a systematic reason people would perceive this: women are just much choosier about the race of their partners in the short-term. this is even correcting for physical appearance. but it seems to wear off as an effect over the long term since outmarriage rates are balanced among brownz, and even east asians more or less.
100 · Suki Dillon said
Awesome image, I cant stop giggling. He’ll get a little confused when they do Ardas 😀
Thank you all those who replied to my post. I’ve been sitting here reading your comments with tears in my eyes. Here’s to true love and all the power that it brings. I’ll be sure to update this thread with how things ended up.
I love that picture. My favorite part is the dollar bills people are putting in their laps.
“I know you make a million dollars an episode and you are some producer but here is a little something something to get you 2 on your feet”
This is an excellent analysis and I read it before but I think the belief that women become less selective about the race of their partners in the long term doesnt really alieveate any concerns I have. My main concerns are that because of the way Indian males are percieved its seems like we are often not the first choice of Indian women or women in general. As time goes on and their racial preferences decrease with the realization that being so picky doesnt benefit them its seems that only then do Indian men/Asian men become a better choice. I of course could be completely wrong and I hope I am.
My main concerns are that because of the way Indian males are percieved its seems like we are often not the first choice of Indian women or women in general. As time goes on and their racial preferences decrease with the realization that being so picky doesnt benefit them its seems that only then do Indian men/Asian men become a better choice. I of course could be completely wrong and I hope I am.
i’m 99.99% certain you’re wrong that the average brown chick prefers non-brownz to brownz (i assume you mean white). east asian women are the least racially conscious women on the market, and that’s mostly because they don’t exhibit a super-strong prejudice toward same race partners as do most other racial groups. i don’t think brown women would be further along the spectrum than east asians. re: pickiness, that’s an interesting point, but i would add that i was surprised that all things controlled better looking women are less racially conscious. you can psychoanalyze as to why this might be, but either the finding is anomalous or confounded with another variable, or we have to be careful about our naive intuitions in this model (i had assumed that the better looking would be more racially conscious because they can be picky).
With respect to DBD grad students in US, I have hardly seen any arrange marriage amongst the DBD female grad students I know (which includes several universities). I think their parents back in India give up on getting their daughters to do an arranged marriage (at least mine never broached the surface). They are just happy when their daughters get married to some guy (of whatever ethnicity) and by some age (>28 is when the pressure starts to look for a groom yourself…not 26 or 24 what I read here). I still have many DBD female friends who are around thirty and still dating. I have also observed that most DBD female grads usually end up marrying a DBD male grads, most likely because they mostly hang out with DBD males who outnumber DBD female grads by about factor of 5. Although, there are plenty of cases where DBD female grads have married guys of other ethnicities (mostly white). Compared to that, less number of DBD males grads are married to other ethnicities. Moreover DBD male grads also tend to opt for arranged marriage in larger numbers compared to DBD female grad students (due to above mentioned reason). Those are just my observation from my observable sample size.
“east asian women are the least racially conscious women on the market, and that’s mostly because they don’t exhibit a super-strong prejudice toward same race partners as do most other racial groups”
How do you make that conclusion? perhaps they make a super-strong prejudice against same race partners, which means they can be just as racially conscious.
“ut i would add that i was surprised that all things controlled better looking women are less racially conscious.”
where are you basing this conclusion from?
where are you basing this conclusion from?
see here. read the whole thing and also the whole working paper since you’re obviously curious.
You should be careful about extrapolating a single study to draw broad conclusions like that. That sort of practice may be somewhat understandable in the hard-sciences but in social-sciences with all the vagaries of survey design and unaccounted variables and interaction effects in play it can lead you into a world of trouble.
=) This is a very clever statement because it is true the way it is written. However I would see that as a negative when all the other women of the different races do have preferences towards their own races. In which case, it leaves the east asian men kind of out in the cold. Also not having a racial preference by prefering those outside your race is kind of showing racial preference isnt it?
I’ll keep commenting to help this thread get to 1000 posts. I take that back, i’ll keep commenting until I have to leave work =)
Anna, you should tell Raakhee that vegetarian isn’t exclusively a Hindu thing. My Sikh friend from India is married to a Sikh from the US. She is a strict vegetarian, no not even Starbucks, “What if there is some eggnog left over from Christmas?” But her husband eats anything – literally. So her mother-in-law has now banned everything but eggs and dairy at home.
You should be careful about extrapolating a single study to draw broad conclusions like that. That sort of practice may be somewhat understandable in the hard-sciences but in social-sciences with all the vagaries of survey design and unaccounted variables and interaction effects in play it can lead you into a world of trouble.
that’s the last of 3 independent studies from last year. that was the most detailed, though with the most selection-based sample (elite). the other studies showed the same trend race-ranked trend.
I said I am scornful towards those who deliberately restrict their options to their own kind. And towards those who don’t just make an exception in that intimate relationship but in their entire lifestyle which revolves around their own culture. You know the ones who rarely have any non-Desi friends. These people are misfits in the diverse/multicultural American society. In my opinion they are losers. It doesn’t matter how much money they make or how successful they are professionally. Usually they are, and many of them have first rate education. Just look at the diction of commenter, CR. CR’s vehemence tells me I’ve poked where it hurts – that he/she might be a perfect example of this type. I mean these aren’t people who have just arrived from the Desh or are on a low socio-economic rung – they have either been here for several years or in numerous cases been born and raised here.
Of course you are going to be uncomfortable to venture out of your zone of familiarity. It’s indeed easier to stay closed in. Do I myself not enjoy things Desi? I love to, and I participate in them, but not at the expense of everything else that’s out there. And yes, I say it with great conviction that there are many Desi people whose ignorance of what’s going outside of Desiland in terms of art, literature, pop culture e.t.c. is shameful. Some here have said well they enjoy being with other Desi people because they have so much to relate to together. Maybe true. But in many cases these people simply don’t know enough to make a conversation with a non-Desi person. And if you point this out then they go on this anti-intellectual tangent where they disparage you for being ‘ White’.
On the other hand we have people who just hate their own kind and will go out of their way to avoid them. I have no less contempt for such people either.
Someone here pointed out that it’s easier for Desi women to marry/date outside than their male counterparts. I believe this to be true. And I’ll give my reason which isn’t very PC but to hell with that. It’s hard even for very good looking and smart Desi men to get the sustained attention of similarly endowed non-Desi women. On the other hand, you’ll see many a handsome non-Desi guy with a Desi girl who is, how shall I say it, simply not easy on the eyes. He might love her, and worship her, but I wonder if there isn’t that ‘ exotic ‘ factor lurking inside him somewhere. Good for them I say, but it’s an honest observation. And by unattractive I am not implying a certain shade of skin color. Please!
You should be careful about extrapolating a single study to draw broad conclusions like that. That sort of practice may be somewhat understandable in the hard-sciences but in social-sciences with all the vagaries of survey design and unaccounted variables and interaction effects in play it can lead you into a world of trouble.
the point is well taken, but at least you can quibble intelligibly about the representativeness of any given study, etc. what can you do with personal experience?
Sorry man, I’ve seen quite a lot of the opposite. Attractive Desi girls with unattractive non-Desi guys. Some are with the guy cause they hate Desi guys some because they had a real connection. The latter is of course wonderful. The former is irritating, at least for me. But i guess after this post and the responses I have seen I am coming more to peace with it. I guess the best way to look at it was a lesson from the movie “Higher Learning”, if they chose to date solely (emphasis solely) outside their race you probably wouldn’t want them anyway.
“ead the whole thing and also the whole working paper since you’re obviously curious.”
what does that have to do with “better looking” women? and you failed to answer the first question. Why do you ascribe “being racially picky” with only having preference for one’s own group. an aversion for one’s own group is equally racially picky, in fact I’d say more so.
hat sort of practice may be somewhat understandable in the hard-sciences but in social-sciences with all the vagaries of survey design and unaccounted variables and interaction effects in play it can lead you into a world of trouble.
also, hard sciences = physical sciences i assume. people should be really cautious about a lot of the stats in life sciences, and especially all the correlational crap which comes out of medical studies.
what does that have to do with “better looking” women? and you failed to answer the first question.
ok. i’m not going to scream, but it specifically states in the paper that the same-race preference gets weaker as individuals get better looking. since women were the ones with much stronger same-race preference, that’s why i was talking about better looking women.
Why do you ascribe “being racially picky” with only having preference for one’s own group. an aversion for one’s own group is equally racially picky, in fact I’d say more so.
because that’s a very small minority.
Oh! We’re going to examine the diction of a commenter now to ascertain the merit of her argument.
As long as we’re examining diction, you seem to enjoy throwing around strong words like “contempt,” “deride,” and “loser.” I find it ironic that someone talking about how imperative it is to respect other cultures enough to participate in them feels the need to be so intolerant towards anyone who does not fit into his conception of how people should interact with cultures whether they be their own or those of others.
So yea, I’d say you’ve hit a nerve that pissed some people off, but so does Rush Limbaugh. Don’t delude yourself into thinking that being provocative means that you’re saying anything worth listening to.
As an aside, I wonder how many people realize that the extreme “melting pot” philosophy, when carried out to its logical end, means that all that diversity and variety you treasure will eventually end up coalescing into one homogenous and rather bland mass of goo. Appetizing? I think not! So I suppose you can enjoy the fruits of diversity now, but then what will your great great grandchildren have to be smug and derisive towards their neighbors about?
Boatload of reasons. Desi Men back home are better looking than the ones here, at least where the post-65 gens are concerned. The rich, bold and beautiful tend to stay back in des, while the ill-connected nerds wing it over here. [“Who the heck are these men?” typical reaction to any these days Hindi movie when my daughter’s friends watch them.] Secondly, DBD girls have a v.poor opinion of DBD men – experiences of how Appa treated Amma, Mama treat Mami, and Dada treats, Maa, Maasi, and Bua. And if the DBD girl has been thru a round of dekha-dekhi in India, that’s it. They detest DBD men.
As an aside, I wonder how many people realize that the extreme “melting pot” philosophy, when carried out to its logical end, means that all that diversity and variety you treasure will eventually end up coalescing into one homogenous and rather bland mass of goo.
genetically this is not true. brazilians and brownz exhibit colors from white to black even though the average is brownish. cultures can blend too, but as a matter of practical i don’t think that will happen.
also, the commenter you’re responding to is close to a troll. i’d ignore.
Yoga Fire,
In none of your two responses have you substantively argued against anything I have said. Instead you keep plucking and highlighting words out of context or keep taking comparisons too literally. I might have to use one of those strong words against you.
the last comment was to address an idea common in science fiction that interracial mixing will lead to a homogeneous population of golden-brown hue. genetically this can’t happen. the average may be golden-brown, but all the variation will remain at the tails. just to be clear. in the future racial admixture will probably increase the diversity because more combinations of people will emerge. e.g., afro-haired blonde kids with east asian eyes are possible.
176 · razib said
I agree, I’m careful to use the term “understandable” when I make that point because I wouldn’t want people to think I mean “appropriate.” But it’s still just that any study that depends on studying human behavior is going to be extremely complicated, and although I do quantitative research in that area by trade I am still always skeptical as to how much these models are really explaining. The Hawthorne effect tends to loom large and Freakonomics style “natural experiments” that try to get around it always risk severe bias from omitted variables. The intrinsic inadequacies of quantitative modeling get compounded by the pressure researchers have to get noticed that leads them to make claims that are a fair bit more grandiose than are probably appropriate.
Wow, Ouch!! I dont know if I believe everything you said, you are of course entitled to your opinion. And I am not sure what post-65 gens mean. But i would be hard pressed to believe that the Desi guys here are a bad looking bunch. I think the propogation of that perception is harmful because it is a sterotype that is already prevalent if not overplayed in American culture. And its harmful because I believe that there are just as many good looking indian guys as there are good looking guys of other races, and if we dont make the effort to show this to society no one will.
Yoga Fire, let’s transform this thread into a discussion of epistemology shall we? 😉
180 · razib said
I wasn’t talking about skin color, I was referring to culture. And the reason the real world ends up with a composite culture is because very few of the people who live in the real world is so profoundly silly to take the “melting pot” idea to the extreme that Kishore has where it suddenly becomes a social imperative to run around sampling as much of everything as possible.
186 · razib said
When I’ve been drinking, pretty much every conversation with me becomes about epistemology.
as a desi woman, i would not agree with this – just from a survey of all the desi women i know, the majority of them prefer desi men, and end up with one. personally speaking,
ROMEO86 – how would you categorise the myriad desis growing up in india who consider english their first language and manage very little fluency in any desi language? hell, how would any non-punjabi desis fit into your equation?
19 · A N N A said
Not at all – you could not have possibly encompassed every aspect in your article. Hope you feel better!
Now you are putting ideas into my mind. I am not talking about sampling each little niche that’s out there, I am talking about sampling the composite mainstream. It’s not asking for much.
. And the reason the real world ends up with a composite culture is because very few of the people who live in the real world is so profoundly silly to take the “melting pot” idea to the extreme that Kishore has where it suddenly becomes a social imperative to run around sampling as much of everything as possible.
right. in fact discrete chunks of culture get shed totally, instead of synthesized. some aspects of culture get reconstructed. the “melting pot” metaphor is probably useless in terms of mapping onto to the dynamics which really exist in our society. in fact, they always were. it isn’t as if american jews, for example, practice a hybrid jewish-christianity and speak a synthesis of yiddish-english (jokes about reform judaism aside).
I’m impressed and overwhelmed by the response. Anna is no joke! I think her post might be better than my original piece; funnier for sure. I’m sitting back with a glass of Johnny to read every last comment. More to come…. xoxo
I’m kind of a fan of the salad bowl myself.
As as Desi man, I think thats awesome maybe you could hook me up with some of your friends ;). Just kidding….kind of. =)
I generally think people involved in interracial relationships are manifesting issues with their own ethnicity, of course there are exceptions but given the importance of race in a country like america, and given the dynamics of being a first generation person of colour here, it’s difficult to not make that assumption. Sorry.
With that said, someone who exclusively dates their own kid may as well be manifesting issues with their own ethnicity, but that’s that more difficult to discern since by in large people tend to date within their established social circles (and still those tend to be very ethno-centric just due to the fact that people tend to clump together based on similarities and a common ethnicity is a pretty huge for obvious reasons)
Also, it’s worth pointing out who you date & give the opportunity to develop a relationship with you is a choice most often initiated by the physical. I believe that people routinely give potential mates a “chance” on the basis of looks…so to say love is blind when racial differences are obvious and still have meaning in this society is ridiculous to me.
I’m kind of a fan of the salad bowl myself.
i don’t think that works either. unless you mean that the salad is taken through a food processor and reconstituted. here’s a model that i offered for indian americans who were born or raised here years ago on this weblog in terms of their assimilation/experience in the USA:
1) group who outmarries and whose descendants merge into the hyphenated general population, probably mostly will become “white”
2) group which identifies strongly with a specific south asian tradition. e.g., ismaili gujarati, or konkanastha brahmin, etc., and marries within that community here in the USA
3) a new pan-indian group which emerges out of a synthesis of south asian cultural elements, but it is not tied to any specific region of south asia. some of this has occurred with asian americans with higher intermarriage between the “core” chinese-japanese-korean group that expectation, and the pan-asian american identities of the children.
194 · suman said
lol. unfortunately (for you), every single one of my desi female friends is married. but that should hearten you – it may not help you individually, but it should allay some of your fears re the theory in general.
Razib –
Actually you are the web’s most prolific non-anonymous troll! When you have something original to say instead of regurgitating information gleaned from other people’s works, come talk to me.
,
Id think if they were dating their own kid they’d be manifesting issues with more than just their ethnicity =) Sorry i know it was a typo, but on to the topic I dont know if Id agree with you. I guess i need an example of someone that does that. Is it someone who dates exclusively indians even though they have never hung out with indians? Thats a little difficult to describe as having issues with their own ethnicity because they might have indian relatives. Im not trying to be contrary i just want to get a better understanding of what you are referring to.
That brought a lump to my throat. I married a man within a short period of meeting him without knowing any more than the fact that he came preloaded with the same notion of culture, religion, baggage and guilt included and was brown like me. I felt intense passion in my heart for him based on those assumptions. Little did I know that all those things I thought would bind us barely mattered once our marriage got off to a start. Other than our common love of Indian food we are so completely different from each other that the one thing I’ve realized in the past 16 months of “dating” my husband is that I was fed a lot of cultural bullshit my entire life. I’m amazed everyday and grateful that we work so wonderfully and it’s humbling to realize that my assumptions could have led me down a path of unhappiness that so many of my girlfriends have gone down; with the same assumptions. What I feel today for him has so little to do with the fact that he just so happens to be Indian.
Oh I get the warm and fuzzy every time too 🙂 We deserve a big big hug for coming that far.
When you have something original to say instead of regurgitating information gleaned from other people’s works, come talk to me.
well, to be honest most original stuff that i say is crap. most original stuff most people say is crap. i think comments are more value-add when you actually throw data out there, since there’s a chance it’s not crap. that’s just my philosophy….
Hey speak for yourself, matey, I excrete pearls of genius wisdom for the greater Enlightenment of the masses 😀