The Washington Post featured an article this morning about ethnic dating patterns, primarily those in the Asian and South Asian American communities. At first I assumed, “here we go again, another hackneyed piece about arranged marriages or something.” While there were a few clichés in the article, it did feature an intriguing revelation (to me at least). 2nd generation South Asian Americans (like some other ethnic groups), are increasingly marrying within their race. The magnitude of the trend was somewhat shocking to me since South Asian Americans are better assimilated than our European counterparts, and truly homogeneous ethnic enclaves which would foster such trends are very rare in the U.S. I thought for sure there would be a minor slope in the opposite direction:
The number of native- and foreign-born people marrying outside their race fell from 27 to 20 percent for Hispanics and 42 to 33 percent for Asians from 1990 to 2000, according to Ohio State University sociologist Zhenchao Qian, who co-authored a study on the subject. The downward trend continued through last year, Qian said.
“The immigrant population fundamentally changes the pool of potential partners for Asians and Hispanics. It expands the number and reinforces the culture, which means the second generation . . . is more likely to marry people of their own ethnicity,” said Daniel T. Lichter, a sociologist at Cornell University.
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Increasingly, singles are turning to a growing number of niche dating sites on the Internet, such as http://Shaadi.com and http://Persiansingles.com. [Link]
A recent book titled Inheriting the City: The Children of Immigrants Come of Age also tracks the dating and marriage patterns of 1.5 and 2nd generation South Asian Americans and finds similar results:
Researchers spent a decade following 3,300 children of immigrants in the New York region as they navigated adulthood, which led to a study published last year called “Inheriting the City: The Children of Immigrants Come of Age.” They followed both the “second generation” children born in the United States and the “1.5 generation” — children of immigrants who came as youngsters — who were Dominican, Chinese, Russian Jews, South Americans and West Indians.
Researchers found that their subjects were constantly struggling with the desire to be open to people of all backgrounds vs. family expectations, and their own desires to sustain their culture. Most paired with others who shared similar racial or language backgrounds. [Link]
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p>Reading about how these young men and women are struggling between a desire to exhibit their openness vs. family expectations seems like a whiny sob story after reading Ennis post earlier today, but I’m sure many of us reading this can relate to being torn between the two, including myself:
“People grow up the entire time rebelling to our parents, doing everything we could to fit in and spending the majority of our time running away from the traditions and our heritage,” said Bhavna Pandit, a political consultant of Indian descent who lives in the District. “Now I’m 29 years old, and I actually care about this stuff.” Like many women in the Washington area, she says it’s difficult to find a nice guy. And because she’s looking for an Indian man, it’s harder — they are in short supply in the Capitol Hill circles she runs in. [Link]
I blame the Obama administration which has been WAY too slow in vetting people to fill positions. They never responded to my change.gov application by the way. Well, as I tweeted via our Twitter account yesterday, this song will be hugely popular at desi weddings for the next decade, especially if the trend mentioned in this article holds true.
I couldn’t possibly compete with your level of coolness. I’m quite content in my very typical, sheep-like existance.
94 · Suki Dillon said
you’re cool.
LOL bingo. My husband is a big Metallica and Rammstein loving dude and I can’t stand it. He doesn’t care for desi movies or music but might become temporarily dazed if Rani Mukharjee or Deepika Padukone came on TV. He speaks Spanish fluently but struggles thru forming a sentence in Marathi and by all means he’s quite the typical guy and even a typical desi guy. I’d like to believe I’m so atypical having led the life I have but shit I’m typical too. What is this bullshit about how special and different some of us are from others? Macaca please!
What is this bullshit about how special and different some of us are from others? Macaca please!
Word.
103 · Janeofalltrades said
the only people who are special are those in the olympics and on the shortbus.
Wow, guys! You’re all so special with your Metallica and Rammstein and emo bangs and so not like all the other Bollywood-loving, saree-wearing desis who are complete sheep. Seriously, I’m 18 years old and I figured out long ago that saying how unique you are and assuming know one else can understand your coolness is the best way to let people know you are uniquely toolish. LOL bingo. My husband is a big Metallica and Rammstein loving dude and I can’t stand it. He doesn’t care for desi movies or music but might become temporarily dazed if Rani Mukharjee or Deepika Padukone came on TV. He speaks Spanish fluently but struggles thru forming a sentence in Marathi and by all means he’s quite the typical guy and even a typical desi guy. I’d like to believe I’m so atypical having led the life I have but shit I’m typical too. What is this bullshit about how special and different some of us are from others? Macaca please!
Why are some of the bhangra-loving, Bollywood-watching folks getting so defensive? The desi community (esp. young people, older people not so much) tends to rely heavily on a kind of litmus test for desi-ness which includes Hindi, Bollywood-stars etc. For young people who do not like these things, especially in a place where there are very few desis this can be very confusing. Especially if they are excluded from social gatherings and such because they are called ‘coconut’ or whatever. At one point everybody gets over their ‘uniqueness’ but I can imagine young desi folks who do not know many other desis think they are ‘special’ or something because of the music they listen to or the views they have.
am i cool?
Well, aren’t you special.
You’re making a big assumption about why I (or anyone) said what I did.
I am not sure there is a definition of a typical desi and that is why the slotting is problematic. I lived in India most of my life, love Bollywood and bhangra and have listened to all the bands some people have named in their comments. From my vantage point, that is fairly typical of a lot of people my age who grew up in big cities in India.
That’s pretty typical(lol) for people who grew up in India, I know because of my cousins and their friends. But in foreign countries desis tend to hang onto their identities more. That’s the whole point.
” am a atheist that hates Indian movies, music and all types of Indian dance I dont drink, which makes me weird for Punjabis. My favorite bands range from Metallica, Rammstein, Led Zeppelin, and Bruce Springsteen. I am a very private person that hates large gatherings of people and Indians love those types of events.”
u sound like me…
Give me your shaadi.com profile id..haule haule 🙂
In college, same kinda music choices was a big factor for me, but then I met someone who loved the soft jazz to my hard rock. But we ended up making a lot of sweet music together 😉
What about an Indian girl that grew up in the Midwest but has been in the south so long that she now loves all things country including Rascal Flatts and Carrie Underwood? Is there a place for her on shaadi.com? Will I ever find my brown prince charming? Or am I doomed forever? I used to like Bollywood until Evil Abhi posted that AWFUL song to the post….now I think I may be turned off for life……
Can’t stand bhangra and don’t care much for Bollywood movies myself however why would anyone think precisely disliking those things makes anyones special? That’s the whole point. Do you really believe that struggles with our identities and wanting to be understood and accepted for who we are is uniquely a desi in America issue? Human beings are so varied and different even desis, you are doing people disservice by assuming there are just two groups and one is somehow “special” than the other.
I don’t necessarily think it’s “easier” to marry someone from the same ethnic group as oneself. I married a white guy, and his largely conservative Southern family has treated me with more love, acceptance, respect, and genuine interest than the majority of South Asians I’ve come across. I consider myself bicultural and am very connected with my heritage, but I’ve never felt entirely comfortable with or understood by my South Asian peers. Maybe that has something to do with the regionalism of the community–my family is South Indian but I was raised alongside a primarily North Indian cohort and felt like an outsider more often than not. When you get into the complexity of disparate communities within the larger Indian population, there’s a whole lotta heterogeneity–ideally, this could make for rich cultural exchanges, but in my experiences, snooty narrow-mindedness has always prevailed.
I also grew up pretty darn poor, and the class divide feels like too much of a hurdle to overcome at times. My husband and I would probably be considered upper middle class, but having been raised in a frugal family, a lot of the rampant materialism and the spoiled brat syndrome I see among younger Indian Americans is a complete turn-off and antithetical to the way I live my life.
Long story short: Love is where you find it.
Why are some of the bhangra-loving, Bollywood-watching folks getting so defensive? Can’t stand bhangra and don’t care much for Bollywood movies myself however why would anyone think precisely disliking those things makes anyones special? That’s the whole point. Do you really believe that struggles with our identities and wanting to be understood and accepted for who we are is uniquely a desi in America issue? Human beings are so varied and different even desis, you are doing people disservice by assuming there are just two groups and one is somehow “special” than the other.
Why are you assuming that;s something I said? As I said young people like to define themselves by how they are different from the norm. I don’t think anybody here has said at all that they think they are special for deviating from what they perceive as the norm, they’ve only stated that because of certain interests which fall outside of the mainstream it might be harder for them to find partners of the ethnic group they’re interested in (which here happens to be desi). There is nothing wrong in thinking that, there is a number of people who have interests which many think are ‘odd’. Also being interested in a subculture does not mean that one thinks of oneself automatically as ‘more special’ than people who are not, it is just an interest.
Post is messed up, first paragraph is quoting Janeofalltrades.
Also Metallica and Rammstein are pretty mainstream bands (Rammstein maybe not so much outside Europe). Also metal is very popular in the Desh, I believe Iron Maiden have given a number of concerts in India. And I’m sure it’s not considered strange for a desi in the UK to go to Glastonbury or T in the Park.
117 · Meena said
tell me about it!
This is all Bobby Jindal’s fault. I wish that guy would set a good example and try to assimilate.
I am not the best writer in the world, so the things I try to talk about may come off as “16 year old rebel without a cause” kind of thing.
Talking about what kind of music I like isnt the best way to convey atypicalness(Is that a word?). Like it or not there are characteristics that help you relate better to people around you. I bet many of you that are getting defensive about the word “typical” smile from ear to ear when someone describes Indians as “typically high earning doctors, lawyers, politicians”. I bet none of you have ever blown a gasket from that comment.
But a Indian says they are not “typically” Indian and all of the sudden they are an emo loving tool that thinks they are too cool for school.
I cant say for others, but I wasnt trying to call you a tool or anything, its just that your post gave a very easy opportunity to take a cheap shot and I am too weak not to take it :D. BTW, not considering oneself a “typical” indian is quite a typical indian trait ( yours truly is first to plead guilty 🙂 )
122 · Upbhransh said
rimshot!
I thik we can all agree that Fonzie was cool, a rebellious non-conformist like Shallowthinker. But did Fonzie say he was those things? I think he did. In fact, he clearly thought himself superior to Ralph and Potsie.
But, he respected Richie. In fact, a close reading of the text reveals Fonzie wanted nothing more than to be like Richie, part of typical society as represented by Mr Cunningham’s family…to whom he always kept close proximity.
And with that, I think this conversation has jumped the shark.
120 · Oodoodanoo said
LOL, I think he tried to assimilate, but she only parted her religion.
when you find a girl that likes johnny cash and the Wu Tang, Whao!! B-I-N-G-O
From personal experience, I find Indian Americans (both first and second generations) to be quite conservative and impose a lot of self-ghetto-ization (especially post marriage), mixed in with a lot of middle class dynamics (including the gender roles, consumerism, etc; basically, like a brown-colored Leave It To Beaver version, except in this case, our brown June should have a graduate degree from an Ivy League but is now expected to stay at home to rear the kids, and make samosas and serve chai to guests during “Indian functions”).
But I don’t know what to make of the WaPo article. Some of the stuff is like imagined or constructed differences between people of various backgrounds, including their own. Like these two bits:
Neither of these two things actually has to do with the significant other’s ethnic background. There are plenty of white, religious, conservative parents who could get offended by a prospective son-in-law wearing an offensive tee-shirt; furthermore, the dude wearing that shirt just probably has bad manners. I don’t know of that many white, black, or Hispanic guys that would wear something that would potentially offend the parents of their girl/boyfriend or husband/wife.
The first one is self-explanatory–the stereotyping of your own ethnic background.
There are definitely some cultural differences though, in my opinion. Some that come to mind are that romantic affection in public is frowned upon and brings much uncomfortableness in Indian American families, even with something innocent as holding hands; another is lack of privacy and independence; the hierarchy within Indian American gatherings/groups, and I think this stage has been set with calling anyone who is like 10 years older than you “Uncle and Auntie,” and in turn, people treating you as a child and/or nokhar if you are at minimum 5 years younger than they are,no matter that you yourself could be in your 30s; and finally, the one that really gets my goat, is the bahu institution. Not many people can put up with that, but in Indian American communities, this is integral and rarely questioned. Over and over again I’ve seen Americans of non Indian descent get extremely uncomfortable when they witness the “bahu institution” and the servitude that is imposed on them.
Again, from personal experience, I see all of this replicated when second generation Indian Americans get married. I wonder why; it probably has to do with the fact that their parents are still very much in the picture, but still, people perpetuate some of this stuff, and unnecessarily so. I should add that I am currently in southern California, where the Indian American community tend to be especially obsessed with All Things Indian, which means following a lot of pre-established but constructed notions of what constitutes “sticking with your roots” and being “Indian” (I realize I am engaging in the very thing I said up top about stereotyping people from your own ethnic backgrounds, but these would be the generalizations I would offer after having witnessed the ethnic and cultural dynamics swirling around in Indian American communities).
But what about Italy?
It’s all very upper middle-class navel-gazing yes.
I wonder what desis who went to universities that are not especially prestigious or well-known (within or outside the USA) deal with.
I have never heard that term before.
What’s wrong with maintaining some sense of Indian culture? Culture, contrary to popular belief, is not a personal thing. It only has meaning when it is shared among a community.
Yoga fire:
Let me ask this. If ones lives and works in a predominantly non Indian American area, all colleagues are mostly non Indian American, most friends (met through school) are also non Indian American, and one does not really socialize in spaces where large numbers of Indian Americans congregate (like religious institutions), what is the significance in one’s daily life of maintaining “Indian culture”?
And a more pointed question. What do you define “Indian culture”?
I am sincerely interested for two reasons: I am intrigued by the criteria put up for a certain culture, and two, why some deem it so necessary to carry on this criteria.
To be clear, I am not arguing for “assimilation.” I’m just of the mind that one is a product of where he/she grew up. In my context, I was born and raised in the US by parents who were Indian immigrants. I know some stuff about where they come from, but I wouldn’t call myself “Indian” since I was not born and raised there. It seems futile for me to try and be “Indian” when I am oceans away from India, and I find it hard to define what is “Indian” to begin with, even when speaking about India. There are Indians in India who are way more into American pop culture than I am, converse predominantly in English, don’t go to the mandhir, and disdain Bollywood films, etc.
So, w/r/t this SM post, I can’t really say that I would look to marry someone who’s Indian American for “cultural” reasons. An Indian American could find the right mate in another Indian American, or in a non Indian American. Everything is relative, even how we define culture, what we look for in mate, etc.
But surely you have witnessed it.
I know you said this is from personal experience, so I have no doubt this is your legitimate view. I grew up in Southern California (still live here) and I have not found this to be the case in my Indian “circle.” I’m sure it’s true of some, but I think culture, class, education, religion, and location make a big difference. I just don’t think saying “the Indian-American community tend to be X” is a very useful statement.
PKS:
Sorry, I should have clarified and said “the Indian Americans I come across in southern California”….
And it is totally plausible that it may be that it’s the social network I’m plugged into and not everyone else. But I have also flitted about Indian Americans dispersed in various locations within So Cal, Nor Cal, NY, Chicago, etc, and I do think there are some regional differences (my thinking this does not mean it is an undisputed fact), and based on the factors of culture, class, education, religion, and location that you give, most of the Indian Americans I come across in So Cal are either Gujarati or Punjabi, Sikh and Hindu, middle class/upper middle class, and not really interested in going beyond those markers (arguably, neither are some of the other folks, like the white folks whom I am currently living around).
But you are right, it’s not a good idea to generalize and I should avoid that in the future.
“what is the significance in one’s daily life of maintaining “Indian culture”?”
Well perhaps an individual doesn’t have an indentity of his/her own, has chosen a career based on what parents have ordered, has avoided romantic ‘entanglements’ dutifully till age 23 at which point said person is ordered by parents find a like individual to marry… what else could this person do but cling to what mummy daddy says forevermore.
133 · glass houses said
Where do such Indians exists anymore, not in Urban India, nor in the current young generations of Indian-Americans.
“Where do such Indians exists anymore”
everywhere. I am including of course those indivduals who might fuck around a bit in college, do a little E or coke on the weekends. But still maintain the good boy/girl image at home. I’m not of course advocating a full run down of drugs or alchohol consumed sent to parents but a little honesty might go a long way. I’m astonished at the number of really interesting desis who lived a life of art who then buckled under parental pressure and married simply because they were getting past 25.
At an aggregate level, I don’t see second-generation communities of any ethnic/cultural origins being or acting any different from second-generation Indian American “ghettoization” as somebody further up put it. There is a reason for the popularity of Jewish enclaves, Russian delis, Georgian bakeries, Ukrainian churches, Chinatowns, Filipino grocery stores, Korean restaurants, Japanese karaoke bars. In a sense, none of them are true ghettoes, because I have hung out in some of those places and found them to be both welcoming and exhilarating to an obvious “outsider” like me. And in turn, some friends from those circles — gasp! — ventured into our Indian ghettos and actually managed to enjoy the experience.
So let’s stop beating ourselves; let’s stop feeling guilty, embarrassed and apologetic (or whatever it is we are feeling) and start accepting that this is the nature of group living (to some extent). Or is it natural progression? In any case, we are not unique in this respect–that is my point.
I am currently reading David Bezmozgis…can you tell?
Yeah, but my question further up was what if someone is not living on a daily basis in a “group” that is Indian American? Should one still force themselves to find someone who’s Indian American so as to avoid confrontational dynamics during rare and occassional gatherings of Indian Americans? In the same context, why would someone feel the urge to marry an Indian American? That is what I’m interested in.
130 · Desi Italiana said
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blockquote>Yoga fire:
I don’t think I’ve ever seen any Indian community that was completely shut off from the rest of the world like you’re suggesting. They may all be friends and even spend most of their time around each other but it’s not like that’s all they do.
The same way you define any culture. Would you be more inclined to trust an Indian stranger or a non-Indian one? This is the problem in trying to come up with rigid definitions for fuzzy metaphysical concepts, it’s senseless but the lack of a clearly visible box to put around the concept doesn’t mean the concept doesn’t exist. I just don’t see why you guys are being so judgmental about a group of people wanting to maintain the traditions that they want to pass on. Unless you want to live in some kind of Platonic Republic where kids are all trained up in fascistic education camps to meet your “ideal” is really don’t see how you intend for people to be able to live without having some culture working to form their views. I just don’t see how Indians having parents fill in the role that Americans seem content to let the television and peer-groups do inspires so much derision from you folks.
Once again I have to point out that culture is not an individual decision, it’s a set of shared experiences within a group that lets them both relate to each other better and know where they’re coming from. It’s only natural for parents to want their children to be a part of the culture that shaped them. How else are the kids ever going to be able to relate to their parents otherwise?
“Indian” and “Indian” are homonyms. One is a nationality, the other is an ethnicity. You may not be an Indian national but you’d have a hard time arguing that you’re not ethnically Indian unless you’re of mixed parentage. You can try to reject the cultural background that comes with the Indian ethnicity if you want (not saying you are trying, just that you could if you wanted to), but it’s still part of your background. You can generally relate to India and other Indians better by virtue of being brought up with some of the same values. The shared experiences are what make a culture resonate with people after all.
I don’t truck with PoMo relativism for just that reason. It’s just not a very satisfying view on life to chalk every immaterial thing up as inherently worthless simply because we might have trouble conceptualizing it. You can get caught up in the semantics behind defining “culture” or you could just acknowledge the fact that you understand the concept and roll with it. Remember what Bruce Lee said about the finger pointing at the moon in Enter the Dragon?
Actually I just had no idea what you meant by the term “bahu institution.”
Who knows? Did someone say there is an universal answer? Or a sure strategy? Why argue over this or the other option and close certain possibilities even before the odds of you actually clicking with another dreaming, thinking, planning, strategizing human being (or a small string of human beings) at the right time and the right place?
Marriage, to me, is neither physics nor the balancing of books nor a well-tried out recipe. I can’t answer for you. Nor can you ask questions for someone else. It depends on what each one wants out of their own life.
DesiItaliana@137, Don’t even think abt it. You are killing all the joy of romance, flirting, falling in love etc. There is some fun in living a life of randomness and risk. If and when time comes later on in life that you feel you want only “Indian” you can pontificate over this question. Thats my philosophy though. You never know when and why you will be attracted and fall head over heels. So why categorize and break your head in the prime years.
It seems misguided to say that this is evidence for or against South Asians’ level of “assimilation”. The idea of assimilation itself doesn’t make a lot of sense as social relationships and national-ethnic boundaries continue to become more complex and “globalized”.
Razib makes the good point that the decreasing outmarriage rates may simply reflect the era we live in, which is an era of mass immigration. That should end the discussion right there – and also highlight the fact that outmarriage data ain’t that deep. At least not in the case of the bulk of Latinos and Asians in the country right now.
Outmarriage is a pretty shitty measure of how well a community is doing in a new country (whatever that means), certainly in the United States. It also is a fairly useless value to embrace, as though outmarriage is South Asians’ and other immigrant communities’ only hope for success in America (or a metric thereof). I’ll go a step further and contradict things I may have said a few years ago: “in-marriage” shouldn’t be taken as a measure of ethnic pride either. Both of these sloppy lines of reasoning have got to go.
DesiItaliana@130,
Ah…excellent question. It is function of a lot of things. I guess in the American context it is pretty fluid and open a lot for individual interpretation and depends on a whole host of factors.
I agree that it comes down to a host of factors, but I just don’t buy that culture is an individual thing. It’s not at all meaningful unless it’s shared among a group of people. You can be in Russia and just happen to launch fireworks on July 4th all by yourself, but unless you’re doing it to celebrate America’s independence it’s not really a cultural thing. You need to actually be connecting with somebody for it to have any point.
I see Muslims praying towards Mecca in the same light. No matter where you are, everyone looks in the same direction and does the same thing at a given time of the day. It helps them relate to each other. It’s a shared experience that creates a sense of community among them.
The sociopolitical scenario that you describe keeps me from identifying with my ABD cousins and first-generation elder relatives (FTR, I’m a DBD, who went to college in the US). So much easier to date men from other races or like-minded DBDs, than fight the consumerism, ghettoization, and obvious racism. I find it difficult to discuss any political issue with my ABD family because of the tyranny of the elder-younger hierarchy. As long as you smile and pass the samosas, it is fun and joy.
Hey all, really interesting comments.
First, Yoga Fire:
I’ve certainly seen some families who are very shut off from everything and everybody else around them who are different. I really have, and I hope I do not seem like I’m painting broad brushstrokes. Yes, there are people who go to work and are forced to work colleagues who come from other backgrounds (and the ones who have the most interaction through the workplace tend to be the husbands), but it is also true that the interaction stops there for some Indian Americans. In particular, I have noticed that this trend tends to be stronger with housewives who do not work, and can mingle with people whom they choose to–which are usually people from similar backgrounds.
But I want to understand what these “traditions” are. I’m guessing you mean language, religion, certain socio-cultural customs (like not wearing shoes in the house or something similar), common references like Bollywood. But arguably, doesn’t one learn these things? I mean, we Indian Americans know these things because we were exposed to it, we were taught these things.
So here’s the question: if a white, black or any other non Indian American knew these things, what’s stopping someone from getting with them? I actually know a white guy who has been living in India and Nepal for the past 12 years (since he was 18), and his knowledge about India, Nepal, and Pakistan is simply astonishing. And yet this guy would always be deemed the outsider because of his ethnic background or “blood.”
I really think you have not been reading my comments. I know that culture is a shared experience between a group, and no one is above the various groups they’ve lived through– as much as someone would like to believe that they are above their societal context, that is very rare. But I wrote like twice that what if MY group is NOT Indian American? Should I still strive to follow certain dictates emanating from the Indian American communities?
I get what you are saying here–you basically arguing a certain type of essentialism that one carries through their “blood,” and forgive me for saying this, but I’m not biting this baloney. I said earlier that sure, since my parents are Indian immigrants, and they did things a certain way and taught me certain things, I know about some things in India.
And you should also not assume that all Indian immigrant parents “pass on” certain values. I think most do (harboring the fantasy that they can raise “good Indian girls just like back home” never mind that they are living in India and India itself constantly changes), but I have also met second-generation Indian Americans who were not taught their parents’ tongue, and do not know much about where their parents used to live. I don’t think this is wrong–to each to their own–but I do think it is wrong to pass judgements on people like this (calling them “coconuts,” “sell-outs”, etc). And this ties into what I was saying earlier–for some Indian Americans like how I described right here above, their “group’s” culture is not straight out of the desh.
Yes, I get the group thing. Over and over. You’re still glossing over the nuanced experiences I am talking about that people go through everyday, and yet still choose to selectively seek out people from a certain background.
Priya:
Good ole’ Shaadi.com, thank goodness it exists for the purposes of finding a suitable mate from your own caste, linguistic area, socio-economic background, religion, the whole shebang. Plugging in variables to make sure you weed out the unsuitable types and get with someone just like you so that you can produce babies to whom you can pass down the values of making samosas, pronouncing the “th” correctly in the word “parotha,” doing seva for your elders, singing along with Hindi film songs, authoritatively pulling out Bollywood references from the 1960s and 1970s, and knowing who Bhagat Singh was (I am lampooning).
Yeti:
I do agree with that.
When I was in the Greater Motherland months ago, a good friend of mine and I were having this conversation about South Asian diasporans and marriage, and this desire to marry one of ‘their own’. She and her boyfriend asked me to imagine a white person saying, “I want to marry a white person, because we have so much more in common. They’ll get along with my parents better, and culturally, there will be less friction.” What would one make of a statement like that? they asked me.
Rab ne:
I don’t think racism is relegated to ABD’s. Not at all, in fact. And I still cannot get over some of the comments I hear at Indian functions about whites and blacks; can’t believe that I am hearing denigrating racist remarks in this day in age, in 2009, by people who also voted for Obama.
Just goes to show you that just because a bi-ethnic, African American president got voted in, people still find ways to nurse their prejudices.
And also, consumerism, ghettoization ain’t an exclusively ABD thing either.
Yoga fire:
So enlighten me. You think there is an “Indian culture”, and it exists simply and nakedly as the moon. So why not just describe how it looks, what its shape is, its evolutions? Like I’m thinking that since this is so apparent to you, it shouldn’t be so hard for you to define it, yes?
(BTW, I did comment on some of the little things I’ve noted in a good number of Indian American families I’ve been a part of or witnessed. I’m just wondering what you’re referring to).
146 · Desi Italiana said
That was not my point. I just found it be over-represented in my ABD family: a profound disinterest in politics, world affairs, art, and culture coupled with an unhealthy focus on the material preoccupations of their desi ‘circle.’ Even while in India, I find these people totally unreceptive to politics and culture; only preoccupied with shopping, malls, jewelry, and a visit or two to their gurus.
Rab:
Oh, sorry, then.
I’m just talking about anything that makes it easier to relate to one group of people over another. It’s different for different people.
Some people would. Other people wouldn’t. You can’t generalize that. You also can’t assume that having knowledge of the region would likewise mean respecting it. If he’s lived there for 18 years then he probably does and I wouldn’t really think twice about considering them participants in the culture even if they’re not ethnically Indian.
No, the stuff you carry through your blood is your ethnicity. Identifying with the nationality is more a matter of choice. Most ethnic Indians also identify with the culture. Some don’t. Some non-ethnic Indians also identify with the culture. Most don’t.
Yea but you’d have a hard time saying that Indian-born parents have the same parenting style as American ones. Maybe in a few generations but not yet. I think just about every Indian teenager has bonded with his fellow Indian teenagers over making fun of their parents’ accents.
That’s just it. The nuanced experiences don’t matter because an individual’s personal beliefs don’t define a group’s identity. It’s just the individual’s personal attachment to the group that matters.
No. But in your rush to not be labeled a coconut you’re being derisive towards Indians who do value their culture and want to practice it. Did you think that maybe the derision directed at “sell-outs” has something to do with the suspicion (unjustified or not) that it’s motivated by some degree of shame?
I don’t get it. Why can’t they? Why can’t WASPs be allowed to express a desire to be WASPy. Just because the PC brigade insists that everyone bend over backwards to be accommodating doesn’t mean everyone automatically has to. And beyond that, they don’t even need to say it because it’s implied by the fact that being in America we’re surrounded by and participating in the majority culture. So they’ll never really have a shortage of people to relate to because even if we weren’t raised by a “typical” American family we still grew up around enough people who were to know what it would have been like.
I think the problem you end up seeing with a lot of these conversations that try to contrast Indian culture relative to America is that they’re working with different sample sizes and biased samples. You have a view of the Indian community that consists of your parents, your parents’ friends, and the folks at your college’s SASA or whatever.
Meanwhile the view of the larger American culture consists of associating with the invariably upper-middle class, cosmopolitan, university educated elite of American society.
So you’re comparing an unrepresentative sample of Indians against a sample on Non-Indians that is unrepresentative in another direction and talking about how very enlightened one group is versus another. And it goes both ways. Indians who try to complain about how restrictive and petty their community is and Indians talking about how virtuous and prosperous their community is versus another.
What you end up with is just confirmation bias.
It doesn’t help that some people seem to think any skepticism towards the proposed harmonious interracial love-fest where we all hold hands and sing along to John Lennon’s “Imagine” automatically equates to “prejudice,” “hate,” or “jingoism,” thereby making any actual conversation about the topic impossible. (Not accusing you of this Italiana, you’re being reasonable. But I’ve talked to others who aren’t so willing to see the other perspective and their incorrgibility just ends up making people on every side more disagreeable.)