The Washington Post featured an article this morning about ethnic dating patterns, primarily those in the Asian and South Asian American communities. At first I assumed, “here we go again, another hackneyed piece about arranged marriages or something.” While there were a few clichés in the article, it did feature an intriguing revelation (to me at least). 2nd generation South Asian Americans (like some other ethnic groups), are increasingly marrying within their race. The magnitude of the trend was somewhat shocking to me since South Asian Americans are better assimilated than our European counterparts, and truly homogeneous ethnic enclaves which would foster such trends are very rare in the U.S. I thought for sure there would be a minor slope in the opposite direction:
The number of native- and foreign-born people marrying outside their race fell from 27 to 20 percent for Hispanics and 42 to 33 percent for Asians from 1990 to 2000, according to Ohio State University sociologist Zhenchao Qian, who co-authored a study on the subject. The downward trend continued through last year, Qian said.
“The immigrant population fundamentally changes the pool of potential partners for Asians and Hispanics. It expands the number and reinforces the culture, which means the second generation . . . is more likely to marry people of their own ethnicity,” said Daniel T. Lichter, a sociologist at Cornell University.
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Increasingly, singles are turning to a growing number of niche dating sites on the Internet, such as http://Shaadi.com and http://Persiansingles.com. [Link]
A recent book titled Inheriting the City: The Children of Immigrants Come of Age also tracks the dating and marriage patterns of 1.5 and 2nd generation South Asian Americans and finds similar results:
Researchers spent a decade following 3,300 children of immigrants in the New York region as they navigated adulthood, which led to a study published last year called “Inheriting the City: The Children of Immigrants Come of Age.” They followed both the “second generation” children born in the United States and the “1.5 generation” — children of immigrants who came as youngsters — who were Dominican, Chinese, Russian Jews, South Americans and West Indians.
Researchers found that their subjects were constantly struggling with the desire to be open to people of all backgrounds vs. family expectations, and their own desires to sustain their culture. Most paired with others who shared similar racial or language backgrounds. [Link]
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p>Reading about how these young men and women are struggling between a desire to exhibit their openness vs. family expectations seems like a whiny sob story after reading Ennis post earlier today, but I’m sure many of us reading this can relate to being torn between the two, including myself:
“People grow up the entire time rebelling to our parents, doing everything we could to fit in and spending the majority of our time running away from the traditions and our heritage,” said Bhavna Pandit, a political consultant of Indian descent who lives in the District. “Now I’m 29 years old, and I actually care about this stuff.” Like many women in the Washington area, she says it’s difficult to find a nice guy. And because she’s looking for an Indian man, it’s harder — they are in short supply in the Capitol Hill circles she runs in. [Link]
I blame the Obama administration which has been WAY too slow in vetting people to fill positions. They never responded to my change.gov application by the way. Well, as I tweeted via our Twitter account yesterday, this song will be hugely popular at desi weddings for the next decade, especially if the trend mentioned in this article holds true.
Was an argument forwarded by the person I’m dating. I thought less of him for it, and I asked why such an educated, reflective, mature, and otherwise non-racist person would think like this. His claim was that so far he had not met a woman of non-desi origin that he fancied (I don’t buy this). Should he meet such a woman, he’d try and convince his parents about his amazing connection. We’re still together, but I always wonder how he’d react to a situation where his parents and I disagree. Would he side with his parents for convenience, even if he thought I was right? Or would he start avoiding his parents, rather than initiate the difficult process of making both sides come to a mutually-acceptable, peaceful compromise?
Yoga Fire says:
See, I initially missed this little line, but now that I have read it, I feel like you have discredited yourself. I’m not about to get into an argument based on some manufactured, reified “values” like saying Americans don’t teach shit to their kids as opposed to Indian ones so that it makes someone feel more superior to someone else. That’s massive, massive–and totally inaccurate–stereotyping and I wouldn’t be surprised if you busted out with “Indians value education more than other Americans” or “Indians respect X,Y,Z while other people don’t.” This kind of comment is actually garbage, and I don’t want to wade into it.
Thanks for taking the time to write your comments, though.
147 · Desi Italiana said
ahem I’m more curious about desis in Italy actually, since you say you are Italian. If you are not Italian, why do you call yourself thus?
I don’t think I’ve ever seen any Indian community that was completely shut off from the rest of the world like you’re suggesting. They may all be friends and even spend most of their time around each other but it’s not like that’s all they do.
I guess you have never been to Vancouver.
Desi Italiana, I thinking you making alot of great points and I can understand where you are coming from?
Yoga Fire:
Nationality, ethnic background, and socio-cultural affiliations are not the same thing. They can’t be conflated. By ethnic origin, I am Indian– and I can’t choose that. By nationality, I am American, and nationality is something people can generally choose (like immigrating to another place, taking up another passport and becoming a citizen of said country, though you can do dual citizenship if you emigrate from certain countries). Culturally, I am all over the place, some of it I can choose, some of it not (you can’t always distance yourself from the socio-cultural context in which you grow up, currently live your life in).
Bonding over making fun of your Indian parents’ accents does not translate as sharing experiences of a common upbringing.
And in the Indian diaspora context (which goes beyond just the UK and US diasporas), there are actually people who are third generation like third generation Indo-Fijian and STILL live in exclusivity. That’s amazing, IMO. Over time, most groups tend to spread out in various ways.
I’m not going to spend time pointing out the fallacy you make in this argument above.
No, it rarely has to do with perceived shame. I have met some who try their utmost to reject any perceived affiliation with Indians, will go as far as changing their given names, etc, but that’s not the situation I have in mind, which is an extreme example. I’m talking about groupnik Indian Americans who 1) impose their own lifestyle and mindset on other Indian Americans; 2) assume they can do so and have the right as such because their parents come from the same global region (India); 3) and denigrate anyone who does not fulfill their expectations. These “expectations” often involve failing to have at least 75% of your social circle constituted by Indian Americans, failing to become a part of their clique, failing to have the desire to gorge yourself on Bollywood, being romantically involved with someone who is not Indian American, and the biggest shock of all– not using their “Indian-American” identity as the encompassing, end all, or primary description of who they are.
Most of the reason why some interracial “love-fests” as you call it are disharmonious is because of other people who have a problem with it. I have some very close Indian American friends who married non Indian Americans, and I’ll tell you that it’s the parents, the family, the stares, the talk, and the out of place comments that drive a wedge between couples. Making a relationship is already difficult enough as it is without the crap that other people throw at you–in this case, racial stuff.
And your definition is analogous to saying that people should not do certain things because of the current socio-cultural and political climate. But what if it’s that climate that’s wrong? Like think about it: for many people a while ago, it was entirely common that women’s proper place was in the home, not school and the workplace. Now, how much do you think would have changed if people had simply not rocked and the boat and said, “We are not sending our daughter/wife etc to school and work, because we have to live in this society, and in our society, it is shameful and brings disrepute to our house?”
Finally, let me just say that it’s also incredibly rude to choose, push, or ostracize (either in big or little ways) those Indian Americans who married “out” and their partners. Just a little while ago, a 45 year old friend of the family I am currently staying with came from New Zealand with her white husband. She is like third generation New Zealander of Punjabi origin. When they family saw her (who are all second generation Indo-Fijian), they insisted on talking in Punjabi (even though English is a second mother tongue to them), and when she had difficulty responding in Punjabi, they kept making snide remarks about her “forgetting” that she was “Punjabi.” Why on earth would you 1) expect someone to speak fluent Punjabi when they are third generations removed from Punjab? and 2) where do you get off disrespecting a 45 year old adult by saying she is not “Indian” enough and that she is not living a life of striving to be something she is not?
I know some commentators will take offense when I say this, but honestly, sometimes I think in my head “you want to be ‘100%’ Indian [as if they is such a thing], you don’t like other Americans, you think all other Americans are losers and Indians are the best and brightest, you like your ‘culture’ more because you think it’s better, you code everyone and everything in relation to your own ethnic background, all you see is Indian Indian Indian, you are worried that your kids might not marry a person of Indian origin or that you specifically want an Indian/Indian American mate–then leave. Move to India, find your ethnic, religious, linguistic and caste enclave there, and life will be perfect for you. Go, and you will not be missed.” Period.
Glass House:
Yeah, I agree with that. I don’t see why if someone is secure and confident in who they are– Indian, American, or Indian American–then why they need to constantly re-affirm and validate their identity by seeking approval from like a really tiny circle.
desi italiana – brava!
Well, let me qualify, I certainly don’t think everyone is like that (and you don’t either, by your comments) but there certainly is a strain of ‘look-down-on-you Indian-Americanism’ which is obsessed with making sure ‘the group’ stays a closed group. You know? I find the opposite of open-minded. Well, duh.
You forgot to add the ‘Desi Italiana’ identity to your list of approval seekers.
Desi Italiana, I agree and understand where you’re coming from.
And, I’m proud to be a Liz Lemon! Suck it, nerds!
Meena:
I didn’t say I’m Italian, “Italian” a part of my handle, and the reason why it’s there is because I lived there for years, and also because I couldn’t come up with a good/clever/creative handle.
Desis in Italy are predominantly from India, Pakistan, and Bangladesh, and compared to other South Asian diasporas, the one in Italy is tiny. In some Italian regions, Bangladeshis and Pakistanis heavily outnumber Indians. Most of them work in the service sector, agriculture, run little mom and pop shops or small restaurants, or are fruit and vegetable vendors, and most come from working class backgrounds, though I did meet some Desis who had degrees but were unable to find work in their field. A generally common trend, where immigrants in industrialized countries tend to get locked into a stratified economy, and economic mobility is very difficult to achieve.
Because the diaspora is small, there are two effects (from what I saw): on the one hand, because they are not large enough to keep exclusively to themselves, many are forced to interact with Italians and other immigrants (like becoming friends with the other restaurant busser who might be Moroccan or Peruvian or whatever). On the other hand, because the community is rather small, they earnestly seek out other Desis, especially if they recently arrived.
Interestingly, I never really had a problem in terms of socio-cultural stuff. I was around mostly Bangladeshis and Pakistanis, and I would tell them that I was born and raised in America, but I’m of Indian origin. They’d ask questions like why I couldn’t speak Hindi fluently (I can read it but I don’t always understand what I’m reading, I can understand the general gist of the conversation but my lack of vocab impeded any lengthy conversation in Hindi), what my religion is, if I go to India often, but they would leave it at that, never made any judgments about not being ‘Indian” or “Desi” “enough,” and we would speak in Italian or Hindi. They’d be really nice and share things with me, like food during Ramadan, even though they knew I am not Muslim. With Pakistanis, I’d have conversations about Indo-Pak politics, history, and relations. I was totally fine with this; in fact, this kind of situation was a was a great comfort zone for me.
Same sensation in Nepal: I could pass for Nepali if I wore a salwaar kameez, but when people spoke to me, they’d discover that I was a ‘bideshi’. Now, I had problems because I was a ‘bideshi,’ or that I was of Indian origin (many people there don’t like Indian immigrants there and the Indian government) but it was never tied to the fact that they thought I was a ‘sell-out’ because I don’t do puja everyday, don’t go to mandhir, and don’t speak Hindi fluently (which most Nepalis do), etc. And really, who can say that when even in Nepal, there are Nepalis who don’t go to the mandhir all the time, don’t do puja, hell, don’t even believe in religion? So we’d have discussions about Indo-Nepali relations, Nepali politics, criticize beliefs and practices that we thought were unjust, etc.
It’s really with some segments of the Indian diaspora in the US that I have a hard time with because of their obsession and hang up with trying to “remain Indian” and trying to recreate this imagined India while living here in the US. Even their own imagined India is exactly that–imagined. People get shocked when they go to big urban centers in India and realize that changes happen there too, people are transgressing lines that were once unthinkable, and so on. This anxious desire amongst some Indian Americans probably stems from the fact that we’re minorities in the ethnic background sense.
Desi Italiana,
You’re still not getting that culture is shared within a group. If you don’t have some mechanisms for reinforcing it it may as well not exist. You keep suggesting that because people live in another country now they shouldn’t want to maintain some cultural ideas but never actually mention why.
It’s not like not sustaining it is especially difficult. You have the media and peer-pressure reinforcing other cultural norms constantly. Why is it suddenly worse for the reinforcement to come from the media than for it to come from a social group?
By your reasoning the Jews should have just gone ahead and become Turks, Germans, Poles, Britons, or whatever else they were because holding onto their own identity would have been so very backwards.
Except exactly what you’ve been doing is making an argument based on manufactured, reified “values” ascribed to Indians like saying Other Indians don’t interact with non-Indians as opposed to your enlightened self so that it can make you feel more superior (sic) to someone else.
So re-affirming and validating their identity by seeking approval would be better if it was from a really big circle then?
Face it, everyone is going to need to seek approval from some group of another. If you’re an emo you’re going to look for approval from those peers because you value their company. It’s really quite simple. I just don’t see where you get off feeling all superior because you’ve “transcended” your Indian background. I mean, I’m not all that involved in any Indian cliques myself. I’m not a huge fan of bollywood being conversant enough in it only insofar as it allowed me to taunt people who are. My dating history consists of East Asians, Americans, an Irish girl, and a Swede. The one Indian girl I ever asked out flatly rejected me. And I can only speak my mother-tongue in halting, poorly constructed sentence fragments. That doesn’t mean I’m going to sit here and be all smug towards people who prioritize things differently than I have and I have never once felt demeaned or ostracized by either my Indian peers, the aunties and uncles back home, or my family in India. All of which leads me to believe that most of that negativity and taunting people complain about has more to do with their own attitude rather than their actions. It takes a certain amount of self-consciousness and
See, you say you’re not talking about “assimilationism” but it looks like a duck and it quacks like a duck. I guess America has room for only one type of mindset and anyone who doesn’t fit is worthy only of scorn and dismissal? Makes perfect sense. What perplexes me is that you are unable to see how you exhibit the exact same attitude you’re complaining about, but just because you’re choosing to levy your derision in defense of the majority culture it’s somehow better.
Yoga Fire:
No, I’m not talking about assimilation (as I already mentioned in my initial comments), and I’m surprised you don’t get the distinction I’m making. I never said “You need to drop speaking your Desi tongue, change your religion, choose Anglo names for you kids, actively hunt down a blond haired blue eyed person to get with, refuse to socialize with other Indian Americans, and even deny or reject that your ethnic background is Indian.” That would be assimilation in the negative sense. What I’m saying is that if there are a variety of factors and situations that are NOT denigrating you or negatively affecting but you still don’t like, then it’s probably best to move, if you have the resources to do so. Why stay here in America and suffer through having to see or be around white, blacks, and Latinos, etc, and deal with fact that everything can’t be “Indian” all the time?
Who said I’m fine with forms of peer pressure and reinforcement of certain cultural norms emanating from other groups, like say, the predominant groups in the US? I’m not fine with those norms either.
Um…ok…?
So your prolific comments strongly disagreeing with mine has more to do with your own attitude than my actions…right?
We are really not there, you and I, Yoga fire. You’re just not getting it, and you’re even refusing to define basic components that are central to your argument and you keep repeating over and over again, like “Indian values” and “Indian culture”, though I already offered what I assume people mean when they say “Indian culture” and the differences I’ve seen between some Indian American practices and the larger American society.
“I didn’t say I’m Italian, “Italian” a part of my handle, and the reason why it’s there is because I lived there for years, and also because I couldn’t come up with a good/clever/creative handle.”
I’m gonna make him a dosa he can’t refuse.
I already said that culture is different for different people? Immaterial concepts are always hard to define precisely. It’s like asking me to define what “intelligence” means. How about “justice?” “Love?” “Obscenity?” You can be all PoMo about it and pretend that they don’t exist or are unimportant because you can’t draw a box around them, but that, like I said, is simply not a satisfying way to go through life.
Because I’m afraid the “suffering through being around . . . all the time” is just a strawman you’ve created to caricature how Indian people are and doesn’t really mirror anyone I know. I don’t really fit into any of the categories you’ve defined as “Indian” and yet I still strongly self-identify as Indian and have never once been accused of not being so by other Indians. So it’s obvious to me that your definition is either wrong or based on an extremely unrepresentative sample.
Ok, but it mirrors A LOT of people I know (not all, but a good deal), and let’s just leave it at that. We disagree because of our own personal experiences and who and what each of us come across (and drop the talk about “unrepresentative sample” which is annoying as fuck, since I’ve taken pains to say that it’s some, NOT all.)
DesiItaliana,
I perfectly agree with your opinion but to deconstruct it further – I hope by Indian-American you mean “Indian- American” and not permanent residents or temporary working Indians. If it is the former then your strong opinions are valid but if it is the latter group then things are much much more complicated and nuanced. The angst that you are talking about has to be distinguished between these two categories and the same rules of culture or anything else may not apply across the board. I would venture out to say a third group – Indian diaspora from other countries now wrking/living in America – may also be totally different from the other two. But the bottom line of “being open minded” is something I agree with you totally. I would like hear the desi-republicans take on this though.
Sarcastician, I think you just answered your own question, before you asked it.
Oops, the above meant for Shallow Thinker, not Sarcastician.
Priya:
Thanks for asking about this important distinction– I had in mind the former, not the latter.
To make it a little bit more complicated, there’s always more room for discussion when talking about second generation folks of the Indian diaspora who are immigrants to the North America, ie. Indo-Fijians, Indo-Caribbeans, Indo [insert African country] etc. For example, I’m really fascinated by second and fourth generation Indo-Fijians (because those are also some of the Indian Americans I’ve come across and have even lived with, like right now). Some are very open-minded, some are mind-bogglingly India gung-go, more than some of the folks from India that I know.
And gung ho about India through the most famous medium—marriage. With a “suitable mate,” of course.
165 · hech said
heh, heh..leave the gun, take the jalebis.
Thankyou. THANKYOU. THANKYOU!
I think that about sums up all that makes desi shaadi problematic.
End of story.
(I had a lot I was going to say, but no need after reading that comment.)
Comments can be closed now. The elephant in the room has been noticed.
Here is one speaking (I voted for Obama though.)
But why? Why is it expected for Indian-Americans to do this? That is all I want to know!
There was an article in the NY Times I remember reading maybe 3 years ago during passover. It was a Jewish guy writing about how insular the Jewish community in Europe was. Essentially he was complaining that up until a generation or two ago Jewish families in America were very Jewish and restrictive about what was considered appropriate behavior for members of their community. But he also acknowledged that the only reason Judaism survives today is because the Jewish community set cultural standards for its members and insisted on maintaining tradition. It is essentially the same argument we are having and it was exactly these criticism that Europeans were making about European Jews.
Why is it necessary for Indians to have to relinquish the possibility of having their culture continue further than a generation or two? You can say “I don’t support acculturation by media or other peer-pressure” all you want but that’s how culture gets reinforced. You can’t just wish away that if they don’t get acculturated by their Indian peer-group people will get acculturated through other peer-groups and the media. That’s just the world we live in. If you diminish one you strengthen the others, which may be okay provided you can give some specific reason as to WHY the Indian norms are so bad that they should be discouraged.
The problem is you seem to be taking your experiences of “some” to draw normative conclusions about how “all” ought to think.
Okay, I still have no idea what “bahu institution” means.
Finally, let me just say that it’s also incredibly rude to choose, push, or ostracize (either in big or little ways) those Indian Americans who married “out” and their partners. Just a little while ago, a 45 year old friend of the family I am currently staying with came from New Zealand with her white husband. She is like third generation New Zealander of Punjabi origin. When they family saw her (who are all second generation Indo-Fijian), they insisted on talking in Punjabi (even though English is a second mother tongue to them), and when she had difficulty responding in Punjabi, they kept making snide remarks about her “forgetting” that she was “Punjabi.” Why on earth would you 1) expect someone to speak fluent Punjabi when they are third generations removed from Punjab? and 2) where do you get off disrespecting a 45 year old adult by saying she is not “Indian” enough and that she is not living a life of striving to be something she is not?
I have had to deal with stuff like that many times. The funny thing is that some of these people who badmouth me or my parents for the same thing is that there own kids were in jail, but since there kids spoke punjabi, they did a better job then my parents did of raising there kids.
yeah, i was afraid to ask but now that yoga fire has given me cover, what the hell is this bahu insitituion of which we speak? i googled and came up with Broward Association of Health Underwriters. those bastards.
178 · Manju said
Health underwriters? That must mean they do health insurance!
No wonder they subject our doctors to servitude. It’s so obvious now!
Just guessing, here, but I think by “bahu institution” what Desi Italiana means is the strongly gendered role that daughters-in-law have traditionally (or within some Indian cultures, have traditionally) played. Serving the in-laws, taking over household duties, dealing with over-bearing in-laws, etc. Like the dynamic you see in just about every Indian soap opera (and which drive me crazy). I’ve never seen that here in the U.S., with American-born desi couples, but hey, there are all kinds, I guess.
Just guessing, here, but I think by “bahu institution” what Desi Italiana means is the strongly gendered role that daughters-in-law have traditionally (or within some Indian cultures, have traditionally) played. Serving the in-laws, taking over household duties, dealing with over-bearing in-laws, etc. Like the dynamic you see in just about every Indian soap opera (and which drive me crazy). I’ve never seen that here in the U.S., with American-born desi couples, but hey, there are all kinds, I guess.
Maybe not with American born couples. But what about a educated indian women who comes to America. Another great example of Indian culture that happens to far too many Indian women who come to the west. http://waternoice.com/2009/02/17/dont-complain-dont-explain-just-do-something/
In morning Saas said: Bahurani, idar aou! Roti banaou, kahnna pakaou, dudh nikalo, kamara safai karo.
All that work for what reward?…….
….Later that night Pati-devata said:
Bibi idar aou. Sari uthaou, ek-do-teen, bas, so jaou.
Enough said.
(no reward, did I have to spell it out?) Kyonki Saas Bhi Kabhi Bahu Thi.
Your ABD generation may not know what I’m talking about, but your moms do.
vot desi hell do y’all live in yaar?
Like who cares. go desi. dont go desi. that’s up to you George.
161 · Desi Italiana said
OK. I’m elsewhere in Western Europe and we mostly don’t have what you describe above either, but there are very very few Indians here compared to the UK or the USA. I asked because I was curious to know what the situation was like elsewhere in Europe and because I’m interested in desi diaspora outside of USA/UK. Anyway, so you don’t live in Italy anymore? I was wondering how you were coping with the increasing anti-immigrant measures from the Italian government (ban on foreign foods in Lucca and Milano come to mind).
This is all genuinely interesting…but thing I never goty about the Literature threads at Sepia is Asian Literature written in English is all that is ever reviewed..what about Bengali, Tamil, Guju, Punjabi or Malyaham? We are meant to be Indian after all…
Most Sepians are not fluent in Indian languages, I assume. This is a diasporic desi site. Mostly America-South-Asian. That’s why. For reviews in those other languages there are Indian sites – in those very languages.
Sepiaaahhh True. Nice if I heard America-South-Asian kids also felt equally comfortable blogging there..
@Sepiaaahhh, no reason to exclude indian languages. slightly offtopic, but two reasons:
(1) sooner or later, the diasporic community will have to play a more genuine role in india as well to fully claim their identity. it is more an opportunity than an obligation—just as expats from most countries thrive on experiences from two countries, so can we. there is a lot to learn and admire in all the cultures we get exposed to, whether the culture is here or from some part of india.
(2) the diaspora is now less rooted exclusively in the US because of the number of first gen immigrants.
regarding the first point. so far, the diaspora has interfaced with the english speaking crowd in india—in my mind, this is a byproduct of the colonial times when the “others” didn’t matter. today, circumstances are different. most politicians, and most ppl who matter in the byzantine power corridors of india are not the privileged western educated type. the situation is here to stay—the next wave of the diaspora also includes people who are less capable of being completely here or there.
regarding the second point. we seem to have a uniquely south asian tendency to “micro-stratify” based on every little difference in language/food/clothes—including here on sepiamutiny where we try to split 1/1.5/2+ generation desis. while there are differences for sure, why is it we never learn to work together? it isn’t that hard—but part of the bargain is that one accepts and makes concessions to everyone. not everyone has to be identical to work together—it isn’t even a good idea to be identical.
we have to be inclusive of every kind of immigrant. it is not very easy to say nowadays that the diaspora is not comfortable in indian languages, or that first generation immigrants are not welcome, or anything like that.
Usually when Desi-Americans make trips to India, those trips are short and they are interacting primarily with family members, some of who speak English and some of whom probably don’t. I don’t think a conscious decision is made “not to associate with those ‘other’ people in India”. It’s just that due to time constraints and family obligations, Desi-Americans in India are primarily associating with their family members and friends of family members.
Yes, if they want to. Basically we are living in a globalized world where we can play a more genuine role almost anywhere we choose. India being one of those options to choose from.
You Ol are taking this far too seriously!!