SM enjoys occasionally keeping tabs on diaspora members worldwide and the brothers-in-arms in the Gulf are a particularly interesting, if occasionally sad case. Lured by much greater economic opportunity but often forced to deal with 2nd class citizen status (and worse) – their tales really help show the lengths some folks will go to to eke out a few bucks for the fam.
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Fewer Lights in the Future? |
For many expatriate workers in Dubai it was the ultimate symbol of their tax-free wealth: a luxurious car that few could have afforded on the money they earned at home.Now, faced with crippling debts as a result of their high living and Dubai’s fading fortunes, many expatriates are abandoning their cars at the airport and fleeing home rather than risk jail for defaulting on loans.
Police have found more than 3,000 cars outside Dubai’s international airport in recent months. Most of the cars – four-wheel drives, saloons and “a few” Mercedes – had keys left in the ignition. Some had used-to-the-limit credit cards in the glove box. Others had notes of apology attached to the windscreen.
Not surprisingly, Desis are a large % of the folks fleeing–
Faced with a cash crunch and a bleak future ahead, there were no goodbyes for the migrants — overwhelmingly South Asians, mostly Indians – just a quiet abandoning of the family car at the airport and other places.…When contacted, the dealer for Asgar Ali cars in Sharjah said, “We are helpless and do not know how to tackle this issue. A large number of such owners are from Indian, Sri Lanka, Bangladesh and other South Asian countries.”
In most developed world economies, the tools of citizenship, credit reporting, and extradition usually prevent this sort of behavior. In other words, if I buy a car in Canada and try to leave it and its monthly payments behind at the Vancouver airport, I can generally expect some pretty severe financial consequences in the mailbox back home. As the Times Online notes, however, for whatever set of reasons, such international financial relationships don’t always hold in Dubai –
Most of the emirate’s banks are not affiliated with British financial institutions, so those who flee do not have to worry about creditors.
And in that nugget, perhaps we find the beginnings of an explanation. The 2nd class status not only prevented many expat workers from laying down roots, BUT, by creating a pseudo-anonymous limbo, it ironically also helped them leave their liabilities at the airport when they left the country altogether.
[related: NYT coverage]
wait for a couple of months and we might see H1Bs doing the same thing here. I know many who left with unpaid cc bills in 2001.
I can’t understand all this nonsense about people on H1 visas. I am on a work visa and most of my friends are and I don’t know of anyone who has the intention to do any such thing.
If some Dubai banks are losing money because of absconding owners of abandoned cars, I would consider it just deserts! When my wallet got stolen here in the US, didn’t lose anything that was charged to my US debit and credit cards. But when it came to the $1200 charged on my Dubai credit card, the Dubai bank made my husband, the primary cardholder, pay up, even though proof of police report and honoring of the charges by the US banks etc. was produced. The bank responsible, ABN AMRO -which is after all no Dubai local bank, and whose American/European branches would have paid up – cited the absence of UAE rules obligating the bank to take responsibility. So if the same inadequacy of rules are causing them some pain, I am happy 🙂
1 · voiceinthehead said
I would like to know your opinion about non-H1Bs who are running away from paying their mortgages.
“The 2nd class status not only prevented many expat workers from laying down roots, BUT, by putting them in pseudo-anonymous limbo, it ironically also faciliated their ability to leave their liabilities at the airport when they left the country altogether.”
This is the most interesting aspect of the situation. No rights = No responsibility!
“The bank responsible, ABN AMRO -which is after all no Dubai local bank, and whose American/European branches would have paid up – cited the absence of UAE rules obligating the bank to take responsibility. So if the same inadequacy of rules are causing them some pain, I am happy :-)”
Yeah, reciprocity is a bitch. Now they’re going to have to start thinking about what a real country is all about, civic sense, safety nets, human rights, rule of law – all that boring stuff that can be ignored when it’s only boom times and money, money, money.
financial times has been reporting the overleveraging for a few years now. contra nozick i don’t think a society can actually function only through capitalist transactions between consenting adults. parag khanna seemed pretty sanguine when i asked him about dubai…but in the book he seems way more skeptical.
The story has been debunked. I’m too lazy to google it, but I’ve read about this. It was linked to on reddit. It was a case of sensational reporting by one news outlet, later refuted by a bunch of other news sources.
About H1B guys leaving with unpaid credit card bills, I got the same “advice” when I was in the U.S. (max out the card just before leaving.) I guess some of us Indians are just too cheap and will make money any way possible. Nothing to do with the economic downturn. Its just another way to make money if you’re leaving, never to return.
umm… the “it” I’m referring to is the story about the road to the airport being lined with abandoned cars.
(need an ‘edit’ button… )
Ah Dubai, Dubai, what are all those mile high towers in compensation for? 🙂
I remember when my extended family left Kuwait after the Iraqi invasion. It was actually local Arab families that fled first (Swiss bank accounts and villas in Southern France mean a high level of mobility); most of the Indians stuck around to try and secure their belongings (local bank accounts, belongings etc). So while I see the point of this argument, I think the reality is a little more complicated. I do know of at least one big-cojoned uncle who scammed a cool million in Saudi and then and to suddenly leave the country for some emergency ‘medical treatment’. So it does happen and I wouldn’t be surprised if there was a kernel of truth to this story. But for the most part, I think the Indian community has far more to loose.
On a more serious note, Dubai has been on Iran’s radar for years. Combined with the Persian diaspora in the UAE, often on the receiving end of the same treatment as Indians (since they are non-Arab Shi’as), and border disputes, I don’t think that it’s going to be too long before Tehran starts flexing its muscles southward.
7 · pj said
So much for the model minority BS?
Next bubble to burst is the credit card bubble.
The story has been debunked. I’m too lazy to google it, but I’ve read about this.
It has only been “debunked” by a police official from Dubai. We all know how truthful government sources are in the Middle East. If you are too lazy to provide a link, become a little more lazy and stop posting.
Pj,
where are you meeting these people and why aren’t you reporting them to the authorities.
Goji,
Credit card fraud is not the exclusive domain of Indians and the credit card bubble is definitely not bursting because of them. Also, I don’t really understand what the credit card bubble is, do you mean the default on securities backed by CC loans?
So is the story about the better off expats who can afford the comforts of Dubai. But what about the virtually indentured labour that are employed in the 1000s in Dubai/UAE? The entertainers at the night clubs, and the ABCD without whom the society would grinD to a halt? And for that people’s artist MFH, how come he has never bothered to paint a single shred of canvas honoring the humble mazdoors and ayahs on whose backs the prosperity of UAE has been built?
wow, lot of touchy immigrants. anecdotally fobs aren’t having trouble getting cc, the trend is small enough that benefits outweigh the risks.
11 · amaun said
My family there (they’re not leaving, or not yet at least) can directly verify that a shit load of folks have hit the high road. Having lived there (and hated it) for seventeen years, i find the notion that it was the second class status (which I can vouch for, having directly experienced it)which facilitated this behaviour immensly delicious. Ain’t unintended consequences a BIATCH! 🙂
As somebody who grew up in Kerala where one in every five families or so has a Gulf migrant, has lived in Dubai and currently lives in the US, and is married to an Indian born and brought up in the Gulf, I feel life as ‘second class citizens’ ‘indentured labour (Jyotsana’s term)’ etc. is not as horrific as some of you seem to think. (Of course, there are unfortunate cases of women being duped into prostitution, housemaids being abused etc., leaving those aside for now…. such things are aplenty back home too…) If benefits weren’t greater than costs, will there be such a sustained rush to the Gulf from the desh? Even in terms of human rights and rule of law, life might be better in the Gulf for many vis-a-vis desh, particularly for those from the marginalized sections of desi society such as those belonging to the lower castes.
UAE is the QVC of capitalism.
UAE’s sole purpose is to make money and preserve the socio-economic status of the Emirs. It represents unfiltered capitalism shamelessly exploiting labor.
The Western sense of egalitarianism and social justice is threatened by this model. The West’s smug satisfaction seeing this society unravel(whether real or not) is only natural.
Damn right! F*** Dubai, and the horse they rode in on. I’m supposed to feel weird about that? LOL!
17 · vv_varaiya said
Well, the US government is perfectly happy propping up the dictatorial regimes in the middle east as long as they stay friendly and feed it oil (none of these houses would survive absent the oil wealth they sit on) If the US actually cared two bits about human rights rather than merely installing complaisant rulers through the middle east – emirates, Bahrain, and especially Saudi Arabia with its toxic and potent mix of wealth, Wahabbism – which they export to all corners, and human rights abuse, the global extremism situation would be nowhere near as dire. So, why the sudden discomfort?
Aww, c’mon–aren’t you down-playing the traditional falconry skills a bit?!
😉
I was just talking to my mom about this today. She went to desi central, Costco, and took the sudden drop in the number of Indian families as a sign that H1B visa-holders were leaving in droves haha We actually know a family who purposely defaulted on their mortgage because the price had dropped so dramatically. I couldn’t support their choice but they did what they felt was right. I’m actually interested to see what the results of the next census are. Indians have been so proud of their ‘richest minority’ label that I wonder how they’ll react when someone else nabs that position. Back in 2000, when the last census came out, it seemed like every family we know had 2-3 homes and was trying to cash in on the real estate boom. Unfortunately, many of them aren’t in the same prosperous position now but things have been tough all around maybe the numbers will still even out.
10 · Goji said
I’m tired of the middle-east treating South Asians like SHYT! My family and I have been there for three generations…and we still can’t get over the fear and intimidation they used on us for soo long.
Actually the wealthiest minority belongs to Iranians and oddly enough Nigerians I believe. I’ve found that desis tend to be incredibly myopic in regards to class to the point of delusion. A lot of chest thumping about selective immigrants being successful in Amrika bahadur. The many more numerous impoverished and often times underclass Indians living and working in the Burma, Nepal, Malaysia, Nepal, Saudi Arabia, etc simply do not exist.
24 · sonya said
Of course South Asians themselves don’t treat South Asians like shyt, right? Most of the laborers who work in the Middle East are treated as less than human back in India, so let’s get off the high horse here. But wait, it’s only those Muslim Ay-rabs that are evil, right? Yeah, keep up the knee-jerk Muslim hating reactions here.
Dubai does not have oil, by the way. The rest of the Arab world will do just fine in this economic downturn. Dubai is a unique case because it tried to build its economy on tourism.
25 · Anjali said
Dubai’s tourist economy took hits related to human rights violations, long before the downturn. One incident that comes to mind is the young French boy who was driven out to the desert by a local “friend” and then raped by three Emirati men, before later being intimidated by authorities who threatened to charge him with criminal homosexual activity. India may not be on a high horse but Dubai and its neighbors have awful records.
The rest of the Arab world is not fine. Egypt is in dire straits. Yemen is a lawless mess. etc
The original Desi-hater, Winston Churchill would love the UAE economic model: he believed Capitalism is the strong horse that pulls the whole cart. He would posit the UAE Boyer-Serf model is pulling generations of impoverished villagers from the Desh out of mind-numbing poverty.
UAE simply exists to make money for the Emirs and their favored ones… no higher principles or loftier societal goals. At QVC the commercial is the entertainment, and in UAE unbridled capitalism is the society.
Reply to Anjali:
With all the due respect Anjali, you have no idea what its like for South Asians there. Maybe you are aware of it – I don’t know. But South Asians – the rich ones, the ones of modest means, as well as the labourers are ALL treated like crap. The middle-east is full of glamour but underneath is all lies a dark and disturbing system of exploitation. Don’t get me wrong, I know South Asians have enough problems treating other South Asians like shyt…and I know things aren’t the best for many of these labourers in India. But the very fact that Dubai and the other middle-east countries deliberately use fear and intimidation against these ALL South Asians and use their talent inorder to thrive is utterly disgusting. South Asians in the middle-east are sooo immune to all of this discrimination because the wealth is truly hypnotizing..and of course the authority seeks South Asian migrant (from proffessional to labour class) workers to make their lives easier with lots of money.
You have no idea what its like been for many South Asians like my parents who still can’t enjoy freedom…cause they simply fear…for no reason. Both my parents are well-educated … and they were treated like SHYT….intimidated and emotionally assaulted. I don’t think my family can ever get over all that.
I know the middle-east aint the only place where shyt happens…i know India has its own problems..just like everywhere else..i’m tryin to bring to light the exploitation of South Asian in the middle-east that has been going on for DECADES! What baffles me the most is that we simply don’t really understand that if it wasn’t for these migrant workers, we will be … well, nothing, right? Who else do we expect to do our work for us? Who else is constructing? Who else is cleaning our toilets? Who else do we take our anger on when we’re feeling miserable? Who do we laugh at and ridicule? They are extremely hard working, and if anything we should only feel thankful towards them. Instead we abuse them, discriminate against them, imprison them, and to top it all off we make infamous jokes where the words “Sri Lankan� and “Indian� are synonymous with “stupid� and “valueless.�
Sonya, I am not trivializing the fear and pain your parents might have endured, but, weren’t they free to leave if things were so bad? If they chose to stay, one can only conclude that the benefits of staying exceeded the costs of ‘intimidation and emotional assault’, and what was waiting for them back home wasn’t anything comparable in terms of net benefits.
I have no idea of the kind of intimidation that a South Asian businessman would have faced in the earlier days (now running a business in Dubai is so easy that a lot of enterprising South Asians who are full time employed, also run side businesses) and whether your parents were in business. But for employees, I do not think that things are so bad on balance.
Well, if you compare the labour conditions in the Middle East to the US or Western Europe, it might look like extreme exploitation. But since the ones who are subjected to ‘exploitation’ are from the developing world, the more appropriate comparison is with the conditions in their originating countries. It is not as if they were stolen from their countries and sold into slavery in the Middle East or anything like that. People choose to come and stay based on their own cost-benefit calculations, in whatever metric that may be.
I spent some of my early childhood in kuwait, and my father was a professional. Obviously the mistreatment was not on the same level as that experienced by laborers and maids, but we were simply not treated the same before the law. For example, if a Westerner was caught speeding, they received a fine; Indians typically spent the night in jail for simple speeding (in one case, a family friend was in jail overnight for being 5kph over the limit — this in a country where young kids race by in ferraris at 200kph+ all the time!). And, as you’d expect, there was a very clear glass ceiling at work (oil ‘n gas). My parents voted with their feet and left when I was 8 or so, and most everyone we knew eventually moved to the US, Canada or the UK.
I suppose it didn’t really matter to the Kuwaitis as an endless supply of Indians awaited them, but it still ticks me off to think of this and the litany of other petty mistreatments that I would never tolerate for a second here in the US or other Western countries. And when I was in college I had a very vigorous debate with a fellow classmate, a wealthy student from a Gulf country, over the whole matter. I’m not sure it led anywhere productive, alas.
So, yes, we voted with our feet and left. The bargain of indignity for tax-free income and low career progress had limited appeal over the long run for my parents. And yes, as long as India has a supply of people and the Gulf a strong need for labor (skilled and otherwise), people will go. But that doesn’t make me happy about the situation, or have a very positive view of the region.
** btw, there are a lot of situations where Indian laborers and maids do wind up in slave-like situations due to lack of information and misleading agents. The governments of the various countries have been in no particular hurry to solve this problem.. figures.
Also, it should be noted that Dubai’s economy is more complex than mere tourism. They’ve sought to establish themselves as a hub of financial services, trade and wealth in general for a region with a lot of money, but not a lot of freedom. Sort of a transit point for wealthy Iranians and Gulf Arabs and the rest of the world. But this, and their rather insane construction bubble, have made them far more vulnerable to the general collapse worldwide. It’ll be interesting to see if and when wealthier and more conservative Abu Dhabi bails out Dubai (oh the psychodrama between the ruling families and Sheiks..). Dubai may or may not be a giant ponzi scheme, and it may or may not be the boomtown that it was, and I suspect a lot of that will have to do with its relationships with the other Emirates..
I have many relatives from the Potohar region in Pakistan working as construction laborers in Dubai and Abu Dhabi. It’s to the point where nearly all of the adult males of working age from the village are either there or patrolling the frontier for the Pakistani Army. I have visited them often in their labor camps whenever I have traveled in the region, and their conditions to my first world eyes are abhorrent. However the sad fact is these living and working conditions are relatively speaking marginally better than those in the home country, and that’s why they’re taking on at least a year’s worth of wages just to make it there and spending years and years away from their families just to carve out a living to support them.
With that said, I know for a fact that are many extremely frustrated now as the work dries up and they still have their debts and families back home to care of. They will start leaving in droves and their loss will be devastating. They, the working classes, are the engine that keeps Dubai going.
Clearly, Dubai’s development has not been a sustainable model, economically nor socially. Which is sad because it had the opportunity to be so much more than what it is.
31: About Abudhabi bailing out Dubai, could be a rumour, heard that Abudhabi had to finance Dubai’s government employees’ salary last month.
31 · jackal said
Agree. Tourism as an industry in Dubai is certainly big, but its not among the top two or three biggest industries in the city. Dubai has always been driven by the trade; from the early 1900s when Emiratis traded in pearls, to the establishment of Jebel Ali as a free-trade port in the 1970s. Banking (both legal and “hawala”) and financial services make up the second largest sector. Tourism has only recently made an impact.
About Abu Dhabi bailing out Dubai…I’m real curious to see how long this will continue. The royal families of Dubai and Abu Dhabi are from opposing tribes (Abu al-Falah and the Abu al-Fasala). If Dubai’s financial problems continue, AD could get frustrated and choose to unceremoniously dump them. On the other hand, if Abu Dhabi continues to control Dubai’s money, it can succeed in turning it into a vassal state and become the preeminent power among Trucial Oman states, this has always been AD’s ambition.
About the human rights issues a couple of posts up…that issue only made it to the news because the kid was a French national. The truth is, human rights abuses are a way of life, not just in Dubai, but in the entire Peninsula. HRW and Amnesty have written about cases of rape and torture of Sri Lankan and Bangladeshi maids for several years. There’s no such thing in the Peninsula as labor rights. Labor unions are illegal. They’ve been several incidents where construction workers from India and Pakistan have fallen to their deaths in recent years; the workers’ families are not compensated. Heck, the Indian consulate has to bear the expenses of flying the bodies back to India.
The real sad thing about places like AD and Dubai is that many middle class and rich Indians and Pakistanis couldn’t care less about plight of laborers (most of whom are their compatriots). You have to read about the living conditions in “labor camps” in Dubai and AD. Go to Wikipedia and search for “Sonapur”.
29 · Keralite said
I believe many people have to surrender their passports to their employers upon arrival. I’m sure its not as easy as saying “hey, don’t like it here,” “passport please,” “ok, have a safe trip home.” First you have to pay off everyone that got you there. Then you have to pay off your employer for the cost of employing you.
Indentured labourers were not stolen either when they got on the ships to Guyana, and the Caribbean.
This is great. I really am happy that south asians have a part in fuc#ing up that country.
You are using exceptional cases to make it sound like the norm. Exploitation of workers happen all over the world. In the case of desis in the ME, do you know who makes the most money off of these unfortunate workers? THE INDIAN HEAD HUNTERS do, and they charge tens of thousands of dollars per person. It is desis exploiting desis in most of these cases.
Also, let’s not ignore the horrific working conditions of Indian maids and underage kids IN INDIA. Seriously, it is amusing to me to hear desis complain about worker rights in the ME, when indentured servitude is the norm for most domestic workers in India. Sexual abuse and physical violence against domestic workers are just accepted as a fact of life in Indian middle class homes, and degrading poverty mean that these workers have nowhere to go. I know that it is a fad to bash on Arabs and Muslims, but when it is INDIANS leveling charges, it is seriously ironic.
Many of the workers in ME wouldn’t be there if it weren’t for horrible conditions back “home.”
36 · ShallowThinker said
Trust me, it is the South Asians who are fuc%ed. Arabs in the Gulf states will do just fine. The workers are returning to a country where 60% of the population lives below the poverty line. Leaving cars outside an airport isn’t going to doom Dubai–the millions returning to India may doom India.
Really?? Sexual abuse of domestic workers accepted as fact of life ??? Utterly false claim.
You’d have a hard time saying it doesn’t happen, but you’d also have a hard time finding anyone who considers it “good” and wouldn’t look down on you for doing it.
And Anjali, I don’t see how having millions of people with marketable skills, some basic education, and actual assets that they are bringing home will “doom” India. If you give them something to do they will make a pretty solid workforce. Even if they just go back to some tiny village they now have the knowhow to improve that village if they are willing to stick around. As for the abuse, in India we can blame poverty, lack of education, and a broken government for the misery of the lower classes. What can the Gulf states blame their lack of egalitarianism on?
I think this is something a lot of people miss. For all of its faults, at least the Indian government tries to do something about these problems where a bunch of people are treated like second class citizens. It’s really bad at it and the bureaucracy is so entrenched that it is hard for anyone to get anything done, but the heart is often in the right place. Does that count for nothing? How about the hundreds of non-profits that try to fill in the gaps where the government doesn’t work? Let’s look for potential instead of deficiencies here. At least that way we can actually do something about problems instead of just crying ourselves a river.
“when indentured servitude is the norm for most domestic workers in India”
Sigh. I know lying on internet is okay, but still there is something called basic integrity…..
39 · RC said
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9F07E1D81330F933A25753C1A9609C8B63
A tighter ban on child labor comes into force today, and bars the hiring of children under 14 to work in private homes as maids or in restaurants and hotels as low-paid waiters. The measure came after pressure from international and Indian groups alarmed by evidence of widespread physical and sexual abuse of children working as maids in the homes of India’s urban middle classes. Harjot Kaur, director of child labor at the Labor Ministry, said the police were ready to raid employers suspected of breaking the law, but warned that compliance would be slow. ”Child labor is not a problem that you can resolve overnight,” she said. Official figures suggest that there are at least 12 million children under 14 working in India; activists say the figure is closer to 60 million
Of course none of these laws are actually enforced in India and the enslavement of children continues unabated.
Some may think the fact that they passed a law would suggest that it is not “accepted as a fact of life” and is, in fact, recognized as an evil that should be stamped out.
Enslavement? I understand histrionics are a good way to tug on people’s emotions and the conditions they work under aren’t good by any means, but you do realize how bad actual slavery is right? If you want to complain about children being sold into the sex-trade or chained to factories because their parents couldn’t pay off a loan-shark then fine. “Slavery” is an appropriate word. But if you want to talk about the evils of inhumane labor conditions why not just say “inhumane labor conditions” instead of cheapening the still greater evil of slavery?
40 · Yoga Fire said
So you are saying that India is too poor and too dysfunctional as a nation, a failed impoverished state, and therefore it should not be held to the same moral standards as the arabs? Really??
What you are missing is that it is the indian culture that is ultimately responsible for the human rights abuses that are so widespread in India.
You are making excuses for the inexcusable. If the heart of enough indians had been in the right place, casteism and untouchability, child slavery, maid sexual and physical abuse, hunger, homelessness and horrific degradation would not be accepted as normal facts of life in India for so long.
43 · Yoga Fire said
http://www.ihscslnews.org/view_article.php?id=40
Incongruously India is the biggest democracy in the world, yet it houses more slaves than the rest of the world combined. The majority of the population lives in poverty, making barely enough to put food on the table. (Mehta) The carpet industry in India is the largest money making export-industry and also uses the most child slaves. They helps to support the economy in a great way, and for this reason alone they are indispensable…….Their have been many attempts to put a halt to child slave labor. This growing movement has caught the attention of the Anti-Slavery Society, resulting in the UN Working Group on Contemporary Forms of Slavery and the International Labor Organization’s pushing the Indian and Pakistani governments to enforce their own child slave labor prevention laws…..In conclusion, child slave labor is a pervasive problem throughout the world. This inhumane treatment of children is viewed as ordinary and even acceptable in countries such India, Nepal, and Pakistan. These defenseless and vulnerable children are in need of a voice
When you draw all the evils in India back to “Indian culture” then what you are essentially saying is that if you were to transplant a non-Indian into an analogous situation you would expect them to behave in a much more humane and civilized way just by virtue of them not being Indian. Even if they have to face the same power-structures and incentives and education levels. Do you really believe that power only corrupts Indians because of the culture they have been raised in? Call me cynical, but I have always assumed that people are bastards to each other regardless of the color of their skin or what culture they were raised in. Have you ever read Conrad’s Heart of Darkness? He pokes a gaping hole in that idea. Kurtz came from what you might call a “civilized” culture, but he still did some horrible things just because he had the power to do so.
“Had been in the right place?” Why did you feel it necessary to use the past perfect tense there? Did Indian culture just stop evolving at some point? Are Indians today simply powerless to reinterpret their cultural norms as necessary? By definition anything the Indian people do must be part of “Indian culture.” So if there are bad things that’s “Indian culture” and if there are good things then that too is “Indian culture” isn’t it?
As for post 45, I invite you to please reread what I said in post 43.
I explicitly mentioned that “Slavery” is an appropriate term for children who are forced into labor in factories (and by extension textiles). But you weren’t talking about the textile industry in your original post. Your original post that I responded to was in reference to domestic servants. If you meant to refer to employment conditions in India more broadly rather than domestic servants I apologize if I misunderstood, but most of your post was in reference to exploitation of maids and the like so you can hardly blame me for putting two and two together.
And that quote that says “This inhumane treatment of children is viewed as ordinary and even acceptable in countries such India, Nepal, and Pakistan” is one writer’s opinion. Just because it has seen print doesn’t make it fact. I stand by my previous claim. The fact that the Indian authorities and the Indian electorate keep pushing to curb or stamp it out implies that it’s not something that is considered “good” or “acceptable” by the mainstream. But when people are poor and desperate what are they going to do? Not make money any way they can?
46 · Yoga Fire said
Please dont pretend that child slaves in India do not work as domestic servants.
http://southasia.oneworld.net/todaysheadlines/indian-capitals-bonded-slaves/
Lured by illegal placement agencies’ promises of a better life in Delhi, thousands of minor girls from across India are forced into labour as domestic maids, often subject to physical and sexual abuse. Non-compliance with laws and absence of monitoring mechanism has made the capital a child-trafficking hub…………..“The Delhi government has never been serious in implementing the law on child labour,†said Kailash Satyarthi of Bachpan Bachao Andolan. “That is why domestic child labour has risen in the city. The children are being trafficked from Bengal, Jharkhand and Chhattisgarh,†he said…..“These kids are sexually abused and their condition violates several laws including the Bonded Labour Act……Their entire operation is so brazenly done, it’s shameful. Can you believe it, girls aged 10 to 12 are the most in demand as maids in Delhi?â€ÂÂ
Your reasoning is twisted, both morally and logically. If the widespread inhumane abuse of children had not been acceptable in India do you really think it would be so prevalent? Dont try to make the amoral claim that poverty justifies cruelty. There is no excuse for what goes on in India.
The indian govt passes child labor laws to appease western sensibilities. But those laws are not enforced. Why? Because indian cultural sensibilities are not offended by these inhumane practices.
What a morally bankrupt argument. So according to you as long as there are poor and desperate people in India it is all right to brutally exploit their children??
Why are 10-12 year old girls in such demand by urban middle class households if not for sexual abuse by the males of the household?
Once again you posted people’s opinions and are treating them as facts. The Delhi government has never been serious about anything. Including things in their own interest. It has less to do with child labor itself and more to do with their inability to actually implement an agenda.
I feel like I am trying to pin jello to a wall. If you recall, your initial claim was that “Indian culture is the reason for these abuses.” I made the counter claim that culture has nothing to do with it, rather it is the effect of widespread poverty and the power disparities that come with it. Your reply was to resort to ad hominem and accuse me of being morally twisted. I’m starting to suspect that you’re not really speaking in good faith.
Name a law that is systematically enforced. Especially one which has a significant economic pull driving the thing it is supposed to control.
As long as there are poor and desperate people in India exploitation will happen. Exploitation will happen wherever there are poor and desperate people. If you insist on trying to attribute all the evils of poverty and desperation to “Indian culture” (whatever that means) then you are barking up the wrong tree. India is not the only country with exploitation, after all. Countries throughout Africa and the Middle East are exploited. Even the “enlightened” West routinely abused and exploited labor during the industrial revolution for a good long while until their economies took off. Are you unfamiliar with the stories of workers being chained to machines in factories and hitmen hired to take out union organizers. Have you never read Oliver Twist? My entire point was these things happen when there is poverty and lack of education. Trying to say they are due to “Indian culture” despite the fact that every other culture that had the same level of economic development behaved the exact same way just seems short sighted and ignorant of history.
Incidentally, you still have not answered my first two questions. One, if you attribute these evils to “Indian culture” then that would mean that if we had non-Indians the exact same situations they would behave more honorably. Do you really believe that? And two, what exactly do you mean by “Indian culture” anyway? Since anything the Indian people do will be their culture than you can technically say that anything bad in India is “Indian culture” just like you could say about anything good in India. I am really not seeing how “culture” works as an explanation since you can twist the word to mean whatever you want it to mean. It would really help if you could define for me exactly what you mean.
Last year, within our circle of friends, we had a Pakistani family move from the San Jose, Ca. to Dubai. The reasons on the plus side for them were: US equivalent salary tax free (he is a Cisco engineer), muslim country (no more searching for halal restaurants 🙂 ), Pakistan is only 2 flying hours away and they can go for a weekend to visit family/parents for a couple hundred dollars instead of a couple of thousand dollars, better schools at the primary level (they were all US citizens so coming back for college in America isn’t a problem for the kids). I wonder how they doing now.
On the downside, I think: in Dubai it’s harder to change employers if one employer brought you in. It’s very freakin hot. Cost of living is still very high.
Ram: Why are 10-12 year old girls in such demand by urban middle class households if not for sexual abuse by the males of the household?
–I can at least tell you the reason behind this particular preference which is rather innocent – sorry to disappoint you! I grew up in Bangladesh and usually girls after 14-15 are considered ‘marriageable’ by their family in the village. Besides, when they reach 14-15, usually it’s hard to ‘protect’ these girls from young boys of the neighborhood or even own household. That’s why they bring in girls at a young age, she works till she becomes marriageable [again, around age 15- by their family standard] and then usually married off.
Not that abuse doesn’t happen, but it’s not considered a way of life. And, people go to a rich/educated country expecting a better life. Why are you comparing it to what they left behind? If it’s the same, why should they leave to start with?