It seems a little anti-climactic to say it, but given how long we’ve been arguing talking about M.I.A. here, it probably needs to be addressed: M.I.A’s “Paper Planes” has been nominated for “Best Record of the Year.”
She’s up against Robert Plant and Alison Krauss, on a groundbreaking country music collaboration, and Coldplay’s “Viva La Vida.” So she has no chance of winning (the Grammy’s usually favor established artists and veteran rock stars over rappers, even innovative rappers). Still, chica has come a very long way since she started out a few years ago.
I also wanted to take this opportunity to wish her and her fiancé the best for the child they’re expecting. There’s something profoundly humanizing and clarifying about becoming a parent, though it also changes how most people approach their work and career. (Whatever happens, I do hope that M.I.A. will show up on Noggin and do a song for Yo Gabba Gabba! like The Ting Tings recently did. Perhaps a child-friendly version of “Galang Galang”?)
Speaking of raising children, and on a somewhat more serious note, it seems worth saying that the story that moved me most this (terrible) past week was the story of the Indian ayah, Sandra Samuel, who risked getting shot by cocaine-snorting, steroids-injecting, Islamofascist psychos, to rescue little Moshe Holtzberg at Chabad House in Mumbai:
I was pleased to see that the Israeli government has given her a high honor for what she did. She deserves it.
Aga Khan is not widely respected in Middle Eastern Islamic communities. He is a South Asian guru of a fringe sect that is neither widely know nor accepted in orthodox mainstream Islam, of the Middle Eastern variety.
100 · RC said
i always love it when liberal is used as a slur. i wonder how it compares to fascist in your books.
89 · gbs said
As someone already commented on Friedman’s op-ed piece, this is not a thought-experiment as something like this already happened in Gujrat in 2002, the perpetrators of which are still at large.
Also, gbs, I agree with you that Kayani should condemn these bombings in the harshest terms, and the Pakistan govt. should not have reneged on sending General Pasha to India after they had offered to so. Unfortunately, politics comes into play in both countries, and sending Pasha to India probably would be interpreted domestically as a sign of weakness. It shouldn’t be that way, but that’s reality.
103 · Kabir Altaf said
wrong. for better or for worse, gujarat is part of the sovereign territory of india. the gujarat examples are more analogous to the incidences of domestic terrorism that pakistan keeps playing up to curry sympathy that it is a victim. unless you believe that an attack on muslims anywhere is by definition an attack on pakistan, the situations are completely different.
only one of them is supporting forces of terrorism in the other country. this is not a “on the one hand.. on the other hand…” situation. however, if the pakistani populace actually stopped making apologies and always looking for signs of “indian irresponsibility” (oh my god, manmohan singh made statements about a “neighboring country”. well, he did because it is true!), maybe things would change. 200 people have died in this latest go around (not to mention previous iterations), and still all that matters is petty posturing when the pakistani establishment has had a long track record of abetting conspirators.
india has failed its muslims in many ways – the gujarat massacre is but one example, but that does not justify pakistan supporting terrorism in india.
gbs, I had used “liberal” sarcastically. But never mind. You have shown the typical tendency of a group of people who make assumptions based on knowing almost nothing about the other person or group. If you think I am some kind of evil person and that makes you feel good than go ahead. This is my last comment as this is getting a little personal and it is clearly against the policy of the comment board.
106 · RC said
ah, this sentence is a brilliant piece of irony wrapped in hilarity wrapped in ridiculousness.
p.s: i notice your comment #100 did not actually address the sentence i highlighted in my comment #97.
103 · Kabir Altaf said
This is the least kayani should do, and is by no means enough, but the absence of even this figleaf is telling. and kayani is supposed to be part of the evening peg of whisky swilling moderate crowd.
103 · Kabir Altaf said
Kabir, pls spend sometime introspecting about the murder of several hundred thousand Hindus in East Pakistan in 1971. I know that Indian progressives like to claim otherwise, but the principal targets were a subset of Muslims (educated Bengali Muslims likely to favor secession)and any Hindu they could get their hands on. There’s a great deal of effort spent here identifying the sources of minority grievance perhaps you should consider what makes the BJP popular. The Indian govt. needs to outlaw the Bajrang Dal and put Modi and his henchmen in jail but please spend some time looking inwards
Is there actually anyone alive who does not think Islam has a violent streak running through it’s ideology?
And I’m not saying it was always like so, though the history goes back pretty far, and I’m not saying that all Muslims or even the majority of Muslims are violent or justify violence, most likely the majority of Muslims in the world today are struggling financially to make ends meet and feed their families, however, there is something within this religion’s ideology that does foment violence. Am I alone in seeing this?
Sure, but he is moderate, liberal and progressive. So are most members of his “fringe sect”. Shows it is possible to have a leadership that represents, and enacts, all these values within Islam. It is a good leadership model — why doesn’t the moderates within Islam seek to emulate this model? Instead of just wringing their hands, or trying to bite when people say Muslim leadership has been hijacked by radicals?
“ation – something the pakistani military and the isi should be doing themselves – what would be the point when their funding and planning structure continues to operate unscathed”
gbs you make very good points. But seeing as the ISI runs Pakistan this ain’t happening. The reality is India needs to take Michael Corleone like action kill the ringleaders and their followers or forever be Pakistan’s (U.S.’s) bitch.
>
They are not considered “within Islam” by traditional, orthodox, Sunni Islam. They are South Asian Sufi types. And perhaps it is because they are a fringe group that they are moderate, liberal, and progressive?
111 · Example said
The first poster above is wrong: The Aga Khan is a Persian-European with no Indian/Pakistani/B’deshi roots. He is, however, a very liberal, enlightened, and aristocratic playboy. He has two kids, and his daughter was promiscuous. His son graduated from Williams, and he’s handsome like a movie star. The Aga Khans in the past were the world’s most eligible playboys, owning a stable of Arabic horses and Ferraris, but their social projects are remarkable.
Not a fan so haven’t really given it any thought.
Again, sorry. Nothing much going on there either. Numbly watching reports from my city.
Kabir, Here’s a tiny flaw in that logic. Gujarat: Indian Hindus killed Indian Muslims. Mumbai: Pakistani nationals killed mostly Indians citizens, in India, including 40-odd Indian Muslims.
Here’s Mohib Ahmad’s (Indian Muslims Blog) letter to the last standing terrorist.
(link)
98 · Nibu Achar said
I was excited to visit the link you had posted, but with all due respect for the people behind the site (for putting themselves out there and devoting precious time to blogging when they surely must be busy mothers), the information presented there isn’t that helpful and the cutesy “devi” lingo is cringe-inducing. Are we this desperate for desi-appropriate make-up tips? It’s not that difficult: don’t wear too much paint, don’t be in denial about the shade of your skin and drink lots of water/get plenty of sleep. Done.
Now if you’re the REAL subject of this post…none of that applies. Feel free to wear crazy colors in whatever quantities you desire. Such is the privilege which comes with fame (and talent).
Sorry to be late to the discussion but I too am very dismayed that my friend Amardeep would toss into his post a term like “Islamo-fascism” which is not only analytically useless but also totally polluted by having been coined and deployed by a certain faction of neo-conservatives and smug jingoists. Though I also commend Amardeep for letting the conversation flow after having expressed his own ambivalence on the topic, rather than simply going back and editing the post.
Fascism refers to a particular way of organizing a society for total enlistment and control of the population — through “fascii” of specific demographic, regional, or professional categories. It has much more in common with communism, corporatism, and syndicalism than with religiously motivated ideologies. Indeed, fascism was secular: it sought to replace religion, not advance it.
There are plenty of valid terms with which to describe jihadist extremism. For instance: “jihadist extremism.” Refusing to adopt the term “Islamo-fascism” in no way means ignoring or devaluing the nature of the threat. Quite the contrary, as a matter of fact.
109 · louiecypher said
First of all, I wasn’t born in 1971 and haven’t done much research on the period, but from my understanding it was more of an ethnic conflict than a religious one, more comparable to the ethnic independence movements in Eastern Europe. It was also a civil war situation, and as in any civil war, a lot of outrages were committed. Thus, not exactly an analogus situation. I look forward to reading Tahmina Anam’s “A Golden Age” to get a Bangladeshi perspective on the conflict.
Second, to address gbs’s comment # 105, Pakistan supporting acts of terror in India is not justified, and I never tried to justify it. However, events like the Gujarat massacre are not irrelvent. Neither is the Kashmir issue. One of the terrorist’s himself (I’m not sure which one)actually cited the Kashmir conflict as a reason why he and his fellows did what they did. And to address Amol’s quote, “Indian Muslim” problems are not just “Indian” problems, they are also become international problems, particularly Kashmir, which involves two countries disputing over territory. I also think conflating Pakistan and Lashkar is problematic. The evidence points to Lashkar carrying out this act not to the government of Pakistan, these are not the same entity. If a Hindu extremist organization carried out an attack across the border, I would feel the same way. It would be that group, not the government of India as a whole that would be responsible. I would like to draw people’s attention to the op-eds by Pankaj Mishra, Amitav Ghosh, William Dalrymple, and Ramachandra Guha, all of which make very sensible well-argued suggestions that we need to solve the underlying causes of conflict, such as Kashmir. If not, the cycle of violence will continue.
Finally, I just want to state again that I am not an apologist either for Islam or for Pakistan. In fact, I am Pakistani-American, consider myself affiliated with the South Asian community much more than with the Pakistani community (why would I be reading Sepia Mutiny and not some Pakistani blog otherwise?) and could be considered the liberal coffee-drinking, NYT reading type of guy. I just wanted to point out what I see as the unfair blaming of an entire nation and people, and (in the use of the term “Islamofascist”, which was why I initally commented) religion for the acts of a particular militant group. There is generally not a comparable level of outrage on Sepia Mutiny when terrorist attacks occur in Pakistan (such as the Marriott bombing or yesterday’s attack in Peshawar), it’s as if Pakistani lives are somehow worth less than Indian ones just because they are on the other side of an arbitrarily decided border. If even I, a liberal, get turned off by that, it’s no wonder South Asia is in the state that it is in.
When these terrorist attacks happen in Pakistan, it is a matter of people suffering at the hands of their own co-religionists…and by groups created by their own leaders and government. So it’s very much a problem “within their own family”. I have always maintained that it’s Muslims who suffer the most from Islam. Look at what people (not just women) had to bear during the Taliban rule of Afghanistan…no sports, no music, no schools, draconian punishments for every minor offence, public beheadings, etc. Every aspect of life sternly dictated and harshly micromanaged for the people, and with all the joy drained out of it. And with protest nearly impossible. What a bleak existence!
Hope that never happens. But if it did, it would be fair to hold the Indian govt. responsible. An attack of this magnitude requires serious planning, money and enough higher-ups in law / intelligence / govt. turning a blind eye, or worse, actively helping.
I understand where some people are coming from when they call them Islamofascists, because it might seem to be demonising collectively.
But then how do you deal with the fact that lots of atrocities like this are specifically carried out in the name of the religion?
So I’d have no problem describing them as Islamist Fascists to distinguish between the religion and the supremacist, violent, nihilistic, hateful ideology that draws from the reserves of Islam, but is separate from the religion practised by peaceful Muslims.
On the same basis I’d have no problem with calling violent atavistic scumbags who carry out atrocity in the path of Hindu right wing nationalism Hindutva Fascists.
I don’t have problem with that at all.
What are we to call evil murderous scum like this? Misguided activists? Angry protesters?
Call them what they are.
Jeez, I just messed up the first sentence in my above post. It should read:
I understand where some people are coming from when they object to people like this being called Islamofascists, because it might seem to be demonising Islam collectively.
I disagree. That site turned me on to some superior products that I was unaware of, such as LIPSTICK QUEEN and a fantastic mascara.
We are all free to wear crazy colors in whatever quantities we desire, but that doesn’t mean we won’t look ugly, no matter how much money and fame we got. MIA looks foolish and extremely unattractive in this photo.
Why are the quotations at SM not working properly?
117 · siddhartha said
I think siddhartha has perfectly articulated how I feel about the term “Islamofascist,” although I depart with the use of the term “jihadist” as an alternative. Amardeep, I appreciate the space for allowing conversation around the term. I wish I had been able to follow up on my original comment sooner, and I brought it up because I think it’s important to be precise when we are describing ideologies, frameworks, and processes. Your anger does not detract from my overall respect for you as a writer or thinker, but I do think, particularly in times of anger, that it is important for us (meaning people in the world in general) to be particularly vigilant about how we analyze and articulate our positions and frustrations.
So annoying. Quote function gone haywire. The only portion of my post, above, that is my own writing is the last paragraph.
Odd. ‘Hindu-fascism’ occupies the mind of the left and ‘Islamofascism’ occupies the mind of the right. I mean, I’ve seen lots of left of center blogs call Hinduvta/Hinduvata fascism and are all Martha Nussbaum over it, but bristle at the term Islamofascism, whereas right of center blogs seem obsessed with what they call Islamofascism and are less interested in the other (although some evangelical ones are more aware of the problem given their interest in Indian christians). Why do you suppose that is? It’s an odd phenom.
I don’t care what you call it; I only care how we are going to stop it. Anyway, the terrorists specifically say that religion is their motivation. I don’t see how recognizing that tarnishes all the practicioners of that religion.
“it’s as if Pakistani lives are somehow worth less than Indian ones just because they are on the other side of an arbitrarily decided border.”
What nonsense. That’s only in your own mind. The attacks in Pakistan and in India were committed by the same elements sharing the same ideology. The attacks in India affected Western intersests and people and so therefore received greater coverage. The Western media didn’t give nearly as much coverage to the previous attacks in Bombay or Bangalore because those attacks didn’t affect Westerners. But to charge that sepiamutiny readers care more about Indian lives than Pakistani lives is to attempt to shift the debate in the most dishonest manner. Shame.
siddhartha nailed it.the problem with the term islamofascist is not so much its inaccuracy – to be fair, hitchens does a decent job of including both sides of the argument – but its impotence to express outrage against jihadi terror because of the context in which the term has been abused over the last seven years. Bush administration and its apologists have used this term to legitimize – any reference to nazism and fascism associates Iraq invasion with world war 2 – an invasion which did zilch to counter a very real threat. Islamist/Islamic/Jihadi terrorist is much more appropriate than islamofascist which has been rendered ridiculous by people (not hitchens) who know next to nothing about jihadi terror threat.
kabir, it’s like you never even read my comments, because you just seem to recycle points that have already existed, or address comments that i never made. there is a reason there is outrage at the pakistan govt – something i have articulated over and over again. and if you really think that kashmir and gujarat disappeared that these people won’t find another justification, you are massively mistaken. this does not mean that kashmir does not need to be solved, but to claim that this somehow explains these incidents is wrong. not when armed terrorists with sophisticated prolonged training and support enter india from another country which has over a long period of time supported these goons and has shown no inclination at all to crack down on them.
118 · Kabir Altaf said
i have explained exactly what i believe the extent of the conflation is, and why there is no trust of pakistan given the extent of the bad faith behavior of its government over a long period of time.
123 · Nibu Achar said
That’s unkind. She is pregnant. Now that she’s rounding out (her face especially), that’s unattractive? I mean, that’s what’s really different about her now, because she’s always worn those colors…
also, i hope you see the contradiction in explaining these acts of terrorism by mentioning mistreatment of muslims in india, and defining that as an international problem because it is a threat to the qom, and simultaneously taking offense at the term islamofascism. either you believe that this entire cyclical justification is illegitimate, or that the term islamofascism/islamic terrorism/islamic jihad is justified. (i lean on the side of not legitimizing these terrorist demands, and believing that india is a prime target because it will form a fertile recruiting ground because of its base of muslims which is not yet radicalized, and that it is in the interests of the extreme elements in pakistan to destabilize india).
105 · gbs said
The second part of my previous comment (the part that says it was addressing your comment #105) was specifically addressing this sentence. I do read your comments and I think its unfair to assume I’m just spouting off. I don’t think that if Kashmir and Gujarat disappeared, then the terrorists would not find another justification, but solving these issues would go a long way toward lessening the anger in the Muslim world, even among moderate non-terrorist Muslims.
And Jay (number #128), I didn’t mean to accuse anyone of anything. I was just stating my feelings (based on observation)that the desi-dispora blogs tend to give much more coverage to attacks in India than in Pakistan. Which might just be because most desis in the US are from India, and its natural to feel more pain about violence that occurs in your own country, but I would just like to see us condemn terrorism wherever it occurs and not just selectively.
Ok I’m really done with this issue. I’ve expressed my opinion, and it hasn’t lead to too much constructive debate. So I just wanted to clear my last comment up.
wow, it requires a stunning amount of solipsism to see a point being made about the persistent perfidy of the pakistani power base and turn it into a story of devaluing pakistani lives. i am not going to dignify this comment with a defense, except to point out both the thought experiment that tom friedman posited and my comments on terrorism inside pakistan (and what sympathy india would get if it came up with an analogous claim based solely on hindu terrorists.)
i liked the analogy noname had in comment 35. for better of for worse, this term is now irrevocably associated with the neocon misdirection and their clash of civilizations view of the world (with the implied bigotry of the superiority of their own civilization).
127 · MD said
MD,
I don’t know how closely you’ve been paying attentions over the past 8 years but AQ types have been pretty clear that it is American military presence abroad that presents the actionable affront their id’s seek for justifying the violence they perpetrate. The monks of the JHU and partisans of the JVP in Sri-Lanka, however, quite openly state that their fight is with those who would, according to these chauvinists, wipe Singhalese culture and Mahayana Buddhism off the map.
guess which strain of totalitarian political thought is associated with a religion and which is attributed to the peculiarities of provincial politics in backwater countries (if not ignored completely?) in int’l media? The reason, obvious enough, is that people are far more ready to ascribe intrinsic violent characteristics to missionary religions, “isn’t Richard Gere a buddhist? They couldn’t possibly be violent! Or exclusionary!” The SL chauvinists advantage, of course, is that they feel less inclined to shout “Buddham Charanam Gachami” as they issue full-throated calls for the expulsion/elimination of their Tamil brothers from the island than the odd terrorist act-celebrating crowd caught on camera feels about giving a shout-out to Allah.
Tom Friedman is not a neutral source as he has a clear anti-Muslim and anti-Pakistan bias. As many of the comments on his inital op-ed pointed out, he is holding Pakistanis to a higher standard of decency and morality than he is holding any other community in the world. Many of the comments also pointed out the problems with his “thought-experiment.” I have still not seen any discussion on this blog about the op-eds by Mishra, Ghosh, Dalrymple, or Guha, all of which are well-argued, sensible, and I think the way forward.
My comments about lack of this level of outrage when incidents occur in Pakistan were, once again, not about this particular incident. I don’t recall seeing any posts condemning the Marriott bombing in Islamabad. Someone like me, who lived in Islamabad for a few years, right near the Marriott, had feelings following that event that were comparable to those of Mumbaikars watching their city go through these horrific events. I’ve realized I shouldn’t expect sepia-mutiny to expend the same level of interest in Pakistan, as its mostly an Indian-American blog. However, it chooses to label itself as a South Asian diaspora blog, and South Asia is more than just India. Anyway, this time I really have nothing more to say on this issue. I wish you all well on your blog. I’ll leave you to it.
Just to modify this a bit, fascism was secular but it sought to replace trad religion with a state religion (which could be modeled and controlled by the agents of fascism.)
CR said: “I was excited to visit the link you had posted, but…the information presented there isn’t that helpful and the cutesy “devi” lingo is cringe-inducing. Are we this desperate for desi-appropriate make-up tips? It’s not that difficult: don’t wear too much paint, don’t be in denial about the shade of your skin and drink lots of water/get plenty of sleep. Done.”
You know what–CR I actually agree, too much “Devi”-ness jargon on our site. It’s good feedback. And consider yourself lucky for being able to look good on just water and sleep. Wish I could say the same.
That’s it. Obviously this post is about more important things.
I hear Gilani and Kayani have joined a Facebook group protesting the outrages in Mumbai. Word is that Condoleeza Rice has declared this a satisfactory response from Pakistan, and demanded cessation of the hostile rhetoric and escalation of tensions in the region that India is responsible for.
118 · Kabir Altaf said
I don’t know if the words in this were carefully chosen, but if you believe that this exculpates the Pakistan power structure (army, ISI, civilian government) from responsibility for allowing LeT to operate in relative freedom, you should also not be upset about Gujarat, but rather believe in the
fantasytheory of immaculate conception of riots posited by someone on the other thread. These theories, of course, have the convenient property of eliminating the need for inconvenient introspection, something that we can all agree is desirable.Siddhartha, why did you not care to comment on M.I.A.’s pink and blue on bronz look?
I’m fer.
Again, I am astounded by the amount of anti-Muslim sentiment in the American desi community.
I’m a Muslim. I wouldn’t want to be anything else. I’m an American too…and I wouldn’t want to be anything else. On 9/11/01, I WAS ATTACKED TOO! This is my country too!! My country was attacked. And on top of that, one of my “close” friends, a Hindu, called me that night and screamed at me and demanded that I apologize for attacking my country. I literally had to tell her that I didn’t do it, and that I knew nothing about it.
I am Indian, my family is from Bombay. I love that city. My heart broke when I saw what happened there. Again, I was attacked too.
I just want to make that clear, because it seems that most people, desis, white americans, whoever, miss that point.
And…there is a huge problem with using the term “Islamofascist” or any other term with Islam or Muslim as a descriptive. Our media uses those words to describe any person who commits a violent act who happens to be Muslim, without further investigating if the perpetrator’s motives were religious or political. “His name is Mohammed, the Quran must be his motivation!” Sometimes it is true, that words from the Quran are taken out of context, and used to support these crimes, but not always.
Islam is a beautiful religion. And a lot of the “Muslim militants” or “Islamofascists” or “Islamist” or “Jihadists” or whatever term you want to use commit their acts of violence, not because of their religion, but because of what they see as political injustice.
136 · Nayagan said
And I guess the advantage of Tamil extremists is that they feel less inclined to shout “Glory to Shiva” or “Hail Murugan” when they massacre Muslims, ethnically cleanse them, attack Buddhist shrines, slaughter Buddhist monks, place bombs on buses, trains and roadsides and send suicide bombers to dispatch the latest target or ‘traitor’? And Prabhakaran is less inclined to do the same when he rails and rants against Singhalese brothers and calls for their expulsion from the “Tamil homeland”?
Judging by number of nonMIA posts, I assume it’s safe to discuss “fascist”? Ramchandra Guha is another lefty who got technical w/ this word (India After Gandhi – Why India Survives). He thinks left’s favorite word for BJP, fascists, is problematic. He argues, not unlike antifascist people on this thread, about incorrect usage. (e.g. when BJP were voted out of power they went out quietly unlike fascists etc. etc.) I think both BJP and LeT types use fascist playbook and I don’t really care what names these extremists/murderers are called. But I do wonder why Guha is the only liberal bothered by BJP-fascist comparisons.
Here’s his WSJ article on 26/11.
Well, I have met many people who have had the misfortune of being Hindu in East Pakistan in 1971. You have no basis to say it was an ethnic conflict and it is a self serving assertion. Not to mention that tucked away in the West Pakistani psyche was the idea that liberal Bengali Muslims were crypto Hindus. Not being born in ’71 is hardly an excuse as your parents’ generation was alive at that time and it is not in the hoary past. But even if we accept that assertion it doesn’t change the fact that several hundred thousand Hindu civilians were killed by the Pak army. You are well versed in your grievances, perhaps you should take some time to better understand our grievances. Simply bringing up Kashmir might work as a diversion with some people, but every time you bring it up I am going to ask “How is it right for Kashmiri Muslims to use a plebiscite to declare a Muslim state and disenfranchise Hindu Kashmiris?”. You as an American enjoy the the benefits of being a religious minority in a secular nation but yet you somehow think that it is just to create a new state based on religion or merge with an existing nation that is based on religious identity.
With Islamic sanction. They quote chapter and verse from the Quran and use the example of Muhammad as their inspiration and precedent. Whether they are correct to do so is the question that mainstream Muslims have to deal with.
Camille
Why? They call themselves Jihadists, claim inspiration in theology of Jihad. Why would anyone depart from that description of them? It is up to mainstream Muslims to disprove them, or ‘reclaim’ the word.
How would you describe them? Naughty boys? Misguided protestors?
Some people are too scared to examine the nitty gritty of the theological function and dynamic in play here, or are in denial about the problem altogether.
Sami,
I see the quote function is not working for you either. You should have read the entire thread, so you would know I was responding to a chappie who thought the Tigers were motivated by religion–a idea founded in ignorance and advanced by sophistry. Now if you think religion is their motivation, or that Prabhakaran has ever issued a call to push the Singhalese off the island (not the ‘Eelam’ area)…or that the Tigers have killed Hindus, Muslims, Buddhists and Xtians without expressing any more or less remorse particular to the religion of the victim, well then you’re just an incurable dunce.
why does everyone on the internets these days think that they’re Hitchens 2.0 with a dash of sophistry sauce?