There are a lot of news clips out there about last week’s Mumbai atrocities but this particular Sky News segment manages to hit a couple of angles particularly well –
- A new-to-me video clip where the train station mob unleashes some old skool justice on the lone surviving terrorist
- Photographer Sebastian D’souza provides the frame-by-frame narrative for how he captured his now famous pictures of the terrorists & repeats his assertion that terminal cops didn’t intervene
- The correspondant recreates the sea-borne attack route used by the terrorists to gain frontdoor access to the hotels
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Update: Another video – taken from CCTV inside the station – shows the terrorists at work. It also, however, clearly show a couple of cops engaging them and shooting back with a single rifle between them –
Bzuh, I am all for standing up to “terrorists” (whatever that means). Mumbai security should have killed /detained these “terrorists” upon landing. But, I don’t agree with your point about working against interests. Do you want the next 50 years to look like the last 50? It is not impossible to kill/capture every “terrorists”/future “terrorist”. Allowing Kashmir to linger/fester is working against India’s interests. India would be better served spending the Kashmir resources on building 10 new medical schools, teaching sex ed, modern electrical grid, clean water, investing in Olympic training etc. I don’t think this viewpoint is undignified or spineless.
“I think it is a matter of having a spine and standing up to terrorists. …just give up Kashmir.’ Spineless, despicable, lacking in sense, lacking in dignity. What is wrong with so many people that they want to work AGAINST their interests?? “
79 · bess said
Yes! That movie clearly was asking for a Bollywood remake.
Wow, that is a very cool site! Thanks for the pointer.
There was actionable intelligence. Private security can we well armed also.
I encounter more security while exiting Costco.
Well the Indian Coastguard and Navy patrol the west coast of India, but to monitor every single ship, boat and dinghy that enters India’s territorial waters without actionable intelligence is impossible. What good will private security offers do when their pitted against terrorists armed with enough weaponry to start a small war? CST already had CCTVs – whether or not they are actually reviewed is a different question.
Monty Python and Wagner. pingpong goes low and high (boing)
The use of banjo and harmonica was the giveaway – and that ridiculous side to side kicking. Too bad they don’t steal the good stuff.
Actionable intelligence like what? The western coastline from north-western Gujarat to the southern tip of Maharashtra is about 1,500 miles. The Research and Analysis Wing (RAW), India’s external intelligence and spy agency was defanged about a decade ago and is shambles. There are frequent reports that their top performers are either quitting to take up lucrative positions in private companies or are emigrating to other countries. The US warned the Indian government of possible maritime attacks on Mumbai. There’s no indication that the Navy or Coast Guard were ever informed of this possibility by the civilian leadership.
Armed well enough to counter terrorists on a suicidal mission armed with AK-47s and hand granades?
155 · RJ said
If this isn’t well enough armed, I don’t know what is.
I think increasing security within India is imperative for practical reasons, but the most important form of security is penalize those responsible for crimes. If the evidence is clear that Pakistani territory was used for the planning and execution of this attack, Pakistan should have no choice but to extradite all suspects for trial in India. The crimes have been committed against India, and they must be held accountable to the Indian people. This is a law and order problem, and though there may be pragmatic arguments against military action, if Pakistan fails to provide complete cooperation it must be penalized regardless of the costs. I think modern ‘liberals’ often forget that the main goal of Liberalism is to ensure human freedoms and rights. Sometimes the only way to do this is through war. Check out this piece on why India should really consider the military option..
http://www.pseudonyx.com/2008/12/the-liberal-case-for-retaliation
No, I don’t want the next 50 years to look like the last 50 years. I want India to stand up for itself and, in the process (much in the way that roger23 outlined above), show terror groups and the people that support them that they will eventually have to pay.
Yes, the Indian government should be focused on improving the welfare of its people not just by guarding against further terrorist attacks, but also by improving access to education, clean water, etc. This is why there are different ministers; they look after things. Any government is multi-faceted, and just because it wants to protect people from random attacks doesn’t mean that it shouldn’t also look after other pressing causes.
The fact that you are not even willing to write ‘terrorists’ without quotation marks in it basically marks you a spineless lefty whose opinion I will no longer consider responding to. It is this that makes you spineless.
Very impressive. Even the dude’s family jewels weren’t spared.
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/12/02/world/main4642083.shtml
There were only 10 “terrorists” . Some private security organizations are extremely well armed. Have you ever heard of Blackwater. Hopefully they learned a tragic lesson
Kayastha_lady –
Your place or mine?
No need to be “unpleasant”.
143 · AK said
It’s a sad reality but TV, Videos, and the existence of Israel, are not necessary to incite anger or hatred when the Koran alone and accompanying hadith offer countless passages against Jewish people and other kaffir. Reading the Koran somebody might be fooled into believing that Jews are “the son of apes and pigs” (Sura 2 Verse 65 and Verse 5: 60) who killed their own prophets and lie, cheat and steal. That’s just one of countless examples. There’s also the fact that Muhammed ordered the torture and killing of a prominent Jew, Kinana, of the Kheibar, and then rewarded himself with the man’s 17 year old wife; and later in person Muhammed ordered and watched the beheading of an entire Jewish tribe, the Bani Qurayza. A fundamentalist who reads this stuff literally or aspires to model himself accordingly will take some bad lessons away from it.
“Well make them pay, Stand up to the “terrorists”” are great cliches. But we have been down the road of trite slogans with Bush: Lets fight over there so we dont fight them here – get the evil doers – dead or alive .
How do you want to make the “terrorists” pay.
164 · ASinha said
By beating them at their own “game,” i.e. becoming a “terrorist” him/herself.
158 · bzuh said
So, what it takes to show my spine is to write bold comments on a blog about making the terrorists pay regardless of consequences or without examining the pragmatic reasons for not attacking? Goddamit man, you make me go weak in my knees for you.
How do we make the terrorists pay? Well,if your house is repeatedly being invaded by poisonous cobras, you don’t sit down and ponder why cobras are so venomous. It is their nature to be so. You first find and kill any snakes hiding in your house. Then you secure your house by blocking the cracks from which the serpents can enter. Then you find the cobra’s nest and destroy it. The flaw in this analogy being that snakes usually don’t attack you unless provoked
167 · Howard Rourk said
Are snakes born (hatched) as snakes? Are certain people born as “terrorists?” There’s a few flaws in this analogy.
Harbeer
The analogy is of terrorists as snakes, not people as snakes. It doesn’t matter what they were born as. Their second birth/hatching is when they are turned into terrorists/snakes. The nest that I mention are the camps where they are trained and indoctrinated.
How do we know there were only 10? I’ve seen numbers ranging from 10-40 and it’s not inconceivable that several of them have made good their escape to Pakistan and the Indian government is trying to cover this up. What about Blackwater? Even if India decides to deploy a Blackwater-like force at international hotels does it make the rest of the country secure? What about temples, shopping malls, public markets, railway stations, commercial districts, etc…who pays for all this? India spends $20.11 billion on national security (armed forces, air force, etc.), about $18 million on internal security (FY 2004-05), and $80 million on internal intelligence. Internal security forces and intelligence agencies are completely underfunded and poorly equipped. It’s no wonder then that this sort of thing continues to happen in India.
But how do you account for their leathery eggs? What about their secondary eyelid?
Also there are those snakes that have the jaw that comes unhinged, and then they eat a pig. That is so awesome.
Analogies are lost on Animal Planet geeks.Ross Geller, is that you?
Crikey!
TerroristsSnykes are awesome, myte!BOMB BOMB BOMB Pakistan….That should be the mantra of the Indian government.I would rather take a chance in a “Nuclear” war where i can kill some enemies over being passive victims the leftist peaceniks wants the Indian populace to be.I did my part in the army and if we all do it than Pakistan is toast .Nuclear power or not .
Pakistan is simply not serious about fighting terrorists. They have refused to hand over the 20 suspects that India had asked for.
And if I see that Pakistani ambassador to the u.s. on tv again, I’ll just about puke. He says absolutely nothing and is gasping for straws trying to defend what is essentially a failed state. The idea that zardari is a reformer or a democrat is completely laughable.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB122828321558275457.html
The only way I see this playing out (if you are willing to believe that Indian leaders are rational and self-interested) is India needing to make the US expend political capital on Pakistan forking over the suspects by upping the belligerence and threatening war, something the US does not want at all as it will move troops from the Afghanistan border. Not a good situation.
Bess, State and municipal govts in India are mostly bankrupt. This is because their tax base is not very large (it has increased substantially in recent years) and govts have huge salary and pension obligations/burdens. The police organization in India is complicated. There is an all India “officer” service (the Indian police service) who constitute the upper ranks of the police forces. This service is under the joint control of the state and central govts, to the best of my understanding. In addition to this, states have a police service, including the constabulary. The regular police forces in India are supplemented often by various central organizations, like the CRPF, BSF (border security force), and more recent groups like the RAF (rapid action force, specifically set up for internal security duties that ordinary police are unable to handle, e.g riots) and the like. Typically, police in India are not well armed, and rarely, if ever use guns and the like in their ordinary duties. They also generally need permission from the local administrative authority to use
lethal force (as in police firing on crowds).
The discussion on the terrorist problem is vapid, and sometimes very troubling. Taking action, military or otherwise, is not equivalent to going after Indian muslims as many seem to be implying. Secondly, blaming Pakistan is not a response to “deflect blame/attention” so that there is no rioting against muslims in India. Both these are canards. Terrorist attacks of this kind rarely cause riots in India rarely. Finally, blaming the Indian state for being mean to its citizens, as being the cause of such attacks is again disingenuous, and more than a little disgusting (I know this is a favorite sport of many American “experts”, like Mr. Juan Cole), for terrorism of this kind is fundamentally unacceptable, and criminal and attempting to deflect attention from this basic fact is just plain wrong.
I actually go more from side to side.
165 · Harbeer said
“Terrorists holed up inside Mumbai’s Taj and Trident-Oberoi hotels allowed 17 Russian hostages, including nine defence contractors, to leave after checking their passports.”
Were the masterminds in Pakistan afraid of embroiling a country that tries to beat terrorists at their own game? See below:
http://www.artofficial-intelligence.com/images/grozny-city.bmp
(stepping in where angels fear to tread: since SM Intern has declared had the audacity that SM is for desis in Amreeka, not us Indians who have always lived in India, and never ditched her. So – the Internet is for desis in Amreeka only or what. Indians are not good enough for a India-related website?! Ludicrous)
re. this bit of proofless sensationalism – http://www.rediff.com/news/2008/nov/28mumterror-terrorists-let-go-17-russian-hostages.htm
It reeks of the same “Oh, old boy, don’t you know, they were asking for British and American passports” by a drama-queen who was, supposedly, a released hostage from one of the hotels. NO-one else has made this claim, he ( british accent, hah) made this claim into a CNN / BBC camera ( strange) and has a face full of soot – which none of the other hostages did.
So – I am of the firm opinion that it was a staged bit of attention-seeking naansense.
Alot like the rediff drama stories.
And ‘gruntin’ ball scratcher’…
I am not advocating war without thinking about all the repercussions or other methods of action. I’m just saying that the Indian government actually has to DO something this time. I think what it’s done so far, which is demand the extradition of several known terrorists (e.g. Dawood Ibrahim, although I’m not sure if he’s one of the specific ones they requested) who live safely in Pakistan, is a good step.
I apologize if I sounded too harsh, but I am honestly lost as to why you continue to put ‘terrorist’ in quotation marks. Are you denying that they committed acts of terror?
Yeah, because a nation-state or state authority are just illegitimate (if not fictional) constructs, and there’s NEVER a difference between cops and robbers and the army and a group that’s been banned in the country that it presides in.
Aaage bhee jaane na tuuu…. Peeche bhee jaane na tuuu… Jo bhee hae, bas yahi ek pal he….
There were certain reasons that I stopped reading comments on this website, but still keep coming back for the excellent blog entries…This thread is a splending example of why I should’ve stuck to that standard.
The Indian government isn’t blaming Pakistan because it is convenient…If I believed that at least 1% of you would read the links for the multiple papers, testimonies, research projects that time and again prove beyond any doubt the existence of monetary networks, terrorist camps, military training and other cogs in the Jihadist Insurgency in every strata of Pakistani society, I will provide them…If you really want to be educated about it and since Indian sources aren’t good enough; go to an Academic Search Premier and search from peer-reviewed journals, European/Australian sources, from the United States Supreme Court Publications. Why look at the latest news, and read the stories of networks like the Holy Land Foundation that have offices in Rawalpindi in full view of the entire world.
Most Indian politicians might be scoundrels of the worst kind, but there everyone carries a certain modicum of humanity; I think it is disgusting to say that the only reason they are blaming Pakistan is because they have a political agenda. Talking about how India is a tribal state, bringing up the colonial hangover or talking about how this might bring an idiot like Modi to power …is morally reprehensive at a time when they should be mere afterthoughts. f you want to be a spokesman for the Indian point of view, please do it in a way where you don’t undermine India’s identity.
The necessity to assert the differences of perception and values between oneself and “Indians” is atrocious at times. I totally agree with what one of the people with the Intern handle said, sometimes it is the whole “damned if we do and damned if we don’t scenario”. But some sitting in a cozy room in Arizona amongst many leatherbound books made neither Ron Burgundy nor Alan Bloom credible.
If you want to tell your American friend “oh its coz all these Hindu thugs killed defenseless Muslims a coupla years ago” please go ahead…it is a leitmotif of the Indian culture here. Its easy to make fun of Hindu Gods, its easy and required to make fun of Indian politicians…we all get a few yuks out of it…and then there are times that requires an inherent respect. But instead of that I’m sure Harbeer and his mental ilk will find some other wannabe-Foucaultian wonderment like “what sociolinguistic concerns led to the devolution of the psyche of these individuals”…rather than stop for a second and say, “man, a lot of Indians just died for no reason…”
But acting like an onanist while sitting in a cozy room in Arizona amongst many leatherbound books made neither Ron Burgundy nor Alan Bloom credible.
180 · Indian in India said
Thats gotta be one of the most idiotic ways of going about asserting supposed moral superiority…Even Fabio from Top Chef talking about Rocco Di Sprito had better credibility…
Thank you, Kris. It certainly is complicated so I appreciate your time in explaining it. I can’t help but feel certain optimism for the country in spite of its obstacles. There are so many great minds in/from India and with India coming of age at a time when technologies allow for a more efficient, greener and effective way of doing business and government, the country has the potential to really set the standard for other nations. (and the music rises, reaching unbound crescendos)
Chill, man. If you need to comment, read what I’ve written rather than sermonizing.
It reeks of the same “Oh, old boy, don’t you know, they were asking for British and American passports” by a drama-queen who was, supposedly, a released hostage from one of the hotels. NO-one else has made this claim, he ( british accent, hah) made this claim into a CNN / BBC camera ( strange) and has a face full of soot – which none of the other hostages did.
So – I am of the firm opinion that it was a staged bit of attention-seeking naansense.
“Thats gotta be one of the most idiotic ways of going about asserting supposed moral superiority…”
The Indian government isn’t blaming Pakistan because it is convenient…If I believed that at least 1% of you would read the links for the multiple papers, testimonies, research projects that time and again prove beyond any doubt the existence of monetary networks, terrorist camps, military training and other cogs in the Jihadist Insurgency in every strata of Pakistani society, I will provide them..
Right – I really don’t think it can compare with Bush policy of conveniently blaming it on Saddam – the twisted, manipulated intelligence that was used to go to war in Iraq. Thanks RahulD for saying this.
I think it is disgusting to say that the only reason they are blaming Pakistan is because they have a political agenda. Talking about how India is a tribal state, bringing up the colonial hangover or talking about how this might bring an idiot like Modi to power …is morally reprehensive at a time when they should be mere afterthoughts. f you want to be a spokesman for the Indian point of view, please do it in a way where you don’t undermine India’s identity.
Well-said.
If you want to tell your American friend “oh its coz all these Hindu thugs killed defenseless Muslims a coupla years ago” please go ahead…it is a leitmotif of the Indian culture here. Its easy to make fun of Hindu Gods, its easy and required to make fun of Indian politicians…we all get a few yuks out of it…and then there are times that requires an inherent respect.
Again well-said.
I understand that this is a time for a massive amount of empathy and that different people have different timing for that, and so, I am sorry and sad and I can see that like countless other Indians you are angry and upset. However, for those of us who lived through 11 September in the U.S. and its aftermath, the idea that we should turn our thinking off and sit quietly while other people ram through an agenda (which they will – see: Modi showing up in Bombay while it was still going on) is something I have to reject wholly, having taken my own time to grieve and still living in worry that without knowing it, some of the people I have known in my life in Mumbai might be dead right now. It doesn’t have to do with mocking India.
I also understand that people in Indian civil society are going to react differently to this than people outside, all else equal – but I am outside, and I can’t do anything about that other than try to understand what’s going on and try to call a halt to a lot of the crap that I see coming from both inside and outside India. I mean, does Conndoleeza Rice really need to inject the Bush Administration’s opinion into what is already a tense situation? Couldn’t they have stayed home for once?
as mentioned above the “mob” was the police.. n what else do u except when u capture a terrorist who had just killed so many.. also the photographer dosent know much bout the TAJ incident it seems.. they never came thruogh the front door of TAJ n definately not through the steps besides the Gateway of India.. they landed near colaba a small distance away from TAJ …. not exactly in front of it
its not a mob, its the police. And even if it was a mob, I dont see anything wrong with a bunch of people with sticks beating up a madman with AK-47.
183 · RahulD said
Whatever dude. I said nothing of the kind. Thamizhan wanted to compare the US to India and I pointed out that her/his analysis was incomplete without considering India’s more recent colonial history. Then I made some jokes and tried to temper Bozo’s blood lust. What is this, beat up on Harbeer week?
Man, a lot of Indians just died for no reason.
Thanks for the awesome band name!
This is what has happened since 1993 in Bombay alone (excluding the recent carnage): Date Place Killed Injured 11-Jul-06 7 blasts at 7 locations in local trains across the city 200+ 890 25-Aug-03 Gateway of India and Zaveri Bazaar 50 150 29-Jul-03 Ghatkopar 3 34 14-Apr-03 Bandra 1 0 13-Mar-03 Mulund Railway Station 11 80 27-Jan-03 Vile Parle 1 25 6-Dec-02 Mumbai Central railway station 0 25 2-Dec-02 Ghatokpar 3 31 27-Feb-98 Virar 9 0 24-Jan-98 Malad 0 1 28-Aug-97 Near Jama Masjid 0 3 12-Mar-93 13 blasts across the city 257 713
It is extremely conceding to imply that Bombayites / Mumbaikars who support the agenda of TADA/ Strikes against Pakistan and Modi, are unthinking.
As a Mumbaikar who moved to NY, I saw each city’s reaction in 1993 (where I was just a few blocks from the BSE — the Bombay Stock Exchange, at the time the bombs went of and actually walked past it while it was burning) and 2001 (where I was in mid-town). There was less panic in Bombay than in NY. The BSE lost a measly 1/2 hr of work — and I was back writing my exams on Monday.)
Sure, I was disconcerted and when I found that the terrorists landed in Sassoon docks, which borders the apartment complex that I grew up in. It sure hurt to see them rampage through places dear to my high school memories. But my support for the ideas you hate are not based on blind anger or fear.
I want TADA, because I know that the Indian police does not have the resources or skills or the sort of control over information that the US police/intelligence has.
I am for actions against Pakistan, because they have been intensifying their low intensity war against India, partly because they do not expect a firm response from India, and to not respond will have dire consequences for Mumbai’s aspirations to be a premier financial center.
I am for Modi because the other parties are anti-hindu, more corrupt than the BJP, and I feel that their governments have proved to be anti-national and dangerously incompetent.
Two militants killed in New Delhi shooting Published: Sept. 19, 2008 at 6:35 AM Order reprints
NEW DELHI, Sept. 19 (UPI) — Two suspected militants were killed Friday in a gun battle with police in New Delhi, where a series of bombings last week killed 24 people, police said.
Two policemen were injured in the shooting in Jamia Nagar near the upscale southern part of the Indian capital, local television channels reported.
The incident comes in the wake of recent bombings in several Indian cities, the latest being in New Delhi last week. A group calling itself Indian Mujahedin had claimed responsibility for the blasts, vowing to do more damage.
The Friday gun battle, which lasted more than one hour, began after police rushed to a house where the militants were holed up, the Press Trust of India, quoting a police official.
One of those killed was identified only as Atiq, wanted in the serial blasts both in New Delhi and in the western city of Ahmedabad earlier.
Police said a third suspected militant was arrested and two others escaped.
The PTI report said police were tipped off by Abu Basher, the prime suspect in the Ahmedabad blasts now in custody, who identified the four-story house near a mosque as the location where he and the alleged Delhi serial blast mastermind Mohammed Sibhan Qureshi had taken shelter in July.
The Times of India quoted police sources as saying the five involved in the Friday shooting were members of Indian Mujahedin.
© 2008 United Press International, Inc. All Rights Reserved.
193 · DizzyDesi said
You make some good points. What about the economic improvements of the past 15 years? Do you want to let the hard work of millions of people for more than decade be wasted in a war with these elements. Can we afford it. If we go to a war we will be back in square one with millions going back to poverty, as if the current economic crisis isnt enough to deal with a war will take too much resources not to mention innocent lives.
Gunfire reported from Delhi intl airport.
193 · DizzyDesi said
Wah! Kya logic!
Panic spread at the Indira Gandhi [Images] International Airport in New Delhi [Images] in the wee hours of Friday after two ‘sharp sounds’ were reported from Gate Number 4 of the airport.
Given the number of supporters of the one percent doctrine in all its hydra headed manifestations, why settle for second best? I suggest that Dick Cheney be appointed the prime minister of India.
Con: He’s absolutely amoral. Pro: He will be available very soon, starting Jan 20.
Con: He’s unpopular with every section of the world. Pro: He will tell Arjun Singh, Rajnath Singh, Sharad Pawar et. al to go f___ themselves. Of course, L. K. Advani is likely to be collateral damage due to facial similarity with Patrick Leahy. There is also a prospect that he might “accidentally” shoot Vajpayee in the face.
DizzyDesi’s comment 193 I want TADA, because I know that the Indian police does not have the resources or skills ….. I am for actions against Pakistan, ……intensifying their low intensity war against India, … because the other parties are anti-hindu, more corrupt than the BJP (NOT SURE ABOUT THAT), …
gruntin’ ball scratcher’s comment 197 Wah! Kya logic!
Have you bothered reading Arun Shourie’s opinion piece and the cited document on Pak’s education system?
The direct link to the Pak education system article he cites in his op-ed is here (large 154 page pdf download – warning).
Excerpt about that article from here (granted, this is not the most unbiased source, but then who else is?) :