There are a lot of news clips out there about last week’s Mumbai atrocities but this particular Sky News segment manages to hit a couple of angles particularly well –
- A new-to-me video clip where the train station mob unleashes some old skool justice on the lone surviving terrorist
- Photographer Sebastian D’souza provides the frame-by-frame narrative for how he captured his now famous pictures of the terrorists & repeats his assertion that terminal cops didn’t intervene
- The correspondant recreates the sea-borne attack route used by the terrorists to gain frontdoor access to the hotels
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Update: Another video – taken from CCTV inside the station – shows the terrorists at work. It also, however, clearly show a couple of cops engaging them and shooting back with a single rifle between them –
yeti, nice try with the misdirect, the lind. baby was male. you’re kay_la arentcha?
Surely a postmodernist such as yourself can understand that “universal” is a highly contested category, that all “opinions” and “fact” are debatable even if some are more in correlation with the world than others (I would obviously disagree with your characterizations but more vehemently with the idea that while you accuse me of taking my opinion of what is important and what is not as universal, you are doing the same, at least as much if not more, with yours, which others, according to you, agree with). Your characterization of the context of the conversation is also very off – in fact, what happened was there was and isa narrow conversation about “Islamic terrorism” and “Pakistan” and I have broadened it to ask – what are the major issues facing India’s people (not the Indian state or government) and how do we determine those. Presumably this is not too narrow for you, and is, in fact, a conversation…at least if I talk to some people 😉
yeti on December 2, 2008 02:52 PM · Direct link · “Quoteâ€(?)
this is nauseating. i don’t want to watch someone get beaten down by a mob even if he has committed an atrocious act. that’s not justice and it’s not satisfying. it’s voyeuristic and disgusting.
yeti on December 2, 2008 04:04 PM · Direct link · “Quote�(?)
— Yeti dude/dudette, you really cannot understand sarcasm, can you?
yeah yeah yeah. all in madeup situations. these types, put them infront of the slightest aggression, and they will pee in your pants and cry mommy.
86 · dipanjan said
Thank you for the thoughtful response. This is interesting, but I’m skeptical that this is a complete explanation for why we focus on Islamist jihadi violence. For example, do we have a better understanding of what goes on in the minds of people who are killing Christians in Orissa or who are rioting after the Pistons win the NBA championship? In my mind, the unfamiliar is what most obviously requires the most introspection and care, rather than opinionation (beyond this was f@#ked up), while the familiar narratives are the ones that probbaly require it more (Hindu vs. Muslim, some of the ones I’m presenting above, etc.). Anyway, you might want to take a look at Sageman’s Undersatnding Terror Networks which razib has recommended a number of times – it might help.
94 · Pavan said
Since when has the Indian government managed to walk, let alone chew gum as well? In any case, your argument only holds if there’s no limitation on resources, which there obviously is in a territory in which something like a billion people are at the margins of survival, etc etc etc. When the necessity of difficult choices is there (scarcity), it becomes much more difficult.
Separate from this is the question of stories – why do we focus on the story about “Islamic terrorism” so frequently? I would argue it’s because it’s a U.S. government and media driven narrative, combined with the help of the terrorists themselves at making spectacles of mass murder. But, really, this is not happening elsewhere in South Asia? And why focus only on the spectacle – for example, in another context, an acid burning is horrific (I saw a NY Time scolumn on it the other day with the picture….don’t really want to remember it) but in order to understand it, we have to understand a much broader context of gender relations and family in different parts of India.
Dude,
Read Indian newspapers and blogs. Read what people are talking about.
2008 has been the worst year for India (the people and not the State), in terms of having to face terror attacks.It is the cities that drive economic growth, and all major Indian cities faced Islamic terror attacks.
So, that is what people are talking about – the problem of terror and the inability of the State to make it safe for the citizens.
The people are also talking about hundreds of other issues.But right now, it is the effing right to live peacefully that we are bothered with.
Look, I come here regularly to read the posts and comments, even though I don’t agree with the political slant of most of the bloggers here.I get insights from many, if not all, of the commentors here.And I dig the wit displayed by some regular visitors.
But on this Mumbai terror attacks issue, sorry to say, the discussions here are mostly vapid.
Nothing wrong with that. But one can at least hope for readability, right?
Dr.A, just read your post@102. Why do you have to write such loooong sentences? And with bad punctuation too.Please can you keep it simple?
India…Grow some balls. I think its time you teach Pakistan a lesson. Screw gandhi’s prinicpal of non violence.
78 · Siut said
I agree with your assessment that the Pakistani state faces an enormous number of challenges and that these can spillover to affect the interests of the governments of other states (though I would dispute whether or not the AQ Khan story is relevant) and in some cases even the people who live in those places- though first and foremost people who actually live in Pakistan. I think sometimes when people talk about India, they don’t realize exactly how much more dependent Pakistan has been kept since Independence and have very little sympathy or knowledge about the details.
I don’t agree that no one is arguing that Pakistan is THE major issue facing India. If there weren’t such people, then why would there be such a knee-jerk response to such a horrific event. The headline in Asian Age read today – “Pranab tells Pakistan – turn over [blahblah]…or else.” It’s awfully convenient, if also connecteed to day to day events, to threaten to start a war a few months / a year before an election when you’re in government after a decade of anti-incumbent voting. It’s also doubtful that such a thing would in any way positively contribute to reducing violence against civilians – if any thing, it woudl seem to have the opposite effect of allowing the a$$holes who engaged in this in Mumbai to instigate a much larger confrontation with far greater material and political ramifications.
I would also ask whether a progressive government in Bangladesh in 1992 would have been justified in carrying out military strikes on RSS/VHP forces in India given that their actions at Babri Masjid contributed to massive communal violence against Hindus in Bangladesh.
In any case, thanks for the response – I appreciate it.
107 · Kumar_N said
I’m not talking about Indians. I’m aware of Jaipur and Hyderabad and Delhi (twice) and a lot of other events that have happened. What I am saying is that there is a larger context of social upheaval and violence (and I mean this as relative to Indian standards). The same as happened in the 1960s/1970s. So do we want it to end the same way or worse (i.e. Narendra Modi as prime minister for a decade and having subverted the constitution or other insittutions?)? The right to live peacefully is really important, but politically and morally it’s wrong to keep it only for the 3-20% of India that has a voice that newspapers consider. The question I am asking is not that uncommon – why is it that only when the rich and their institutions are affected by violence (or outsourcing or other trends) do they become issues of significance, issues of importance, issues that ‘everyone must care about.’ What happened to paying attention to the lives of quiet desperation that almost everyone in India endures – and if those things don’t get addressed in India by the political process, then in what meaningful sense is it a democracy?
Sorry 🙂 it’s a bad habit. I’ll try ot do a better job.
Dr.A,
1.Now is not the time to discuss the dozens of issues that are plaguing India. Right now, it is about avoiding future terror attacks.
2.Indians are at a stage where they don’t expect the State to help them in any way.They don’t expect the State to do any thing else other than ‘protect the country from terrorists’. Why is this so difficult for you to accept?
For all his defects, George Bush at least kept mainland US safe from terrorists after 9/11.So, even if Narendra Modi becomes the next Home Minister or PM of India, people across the country will forgive and forget his alleged misdeeds if all he and the BJP govt would do is to ‘ensure a safe India’. We, the citizens of India, will take care of the infrastructure, social justice, inclusive growth and all other things on our own. The Govt need not help us at all.But we, the ordinary citizens, are powerless in stopping this evil of Islamic terror. So, we want the politicians to give us that. Even if that is the ONLY thing they can do, its fine.But they are counting the votes and money, and neglecting their duty.
May be NaMo and the BJP understand this sentiment better than the Sonia clan.The BJP’s current election promise is:Less Government; Better Governance (or something similar to that).
If you still harp on all other issues, I can’t help thinking: you would ONLY understand if your office gets bombed and you have no option but to go to work the next day.You would be shit scared while the world calls you resilient.
And then a day comes when it is one attack too many, and you find yourself, (and your friends, neighbors and colleagues) erupting in helpless rage, in a non-violent manner.THIS IS INDIA’s MOOD NOW.In towns, cities and villages.Muslims, Hindus, and Xtians are all united on this RIGHT NOW.
Please read Indian newspapers.If you understand any vernacular language (Gujarati, Hindi, Telugu, Tamil) please read a vernacular newspaper.
For those who like conspiracy theories:
http://www.atimes.com/atimes/South_Asia/JL02Df05.html
A very plausible account of what could have led to the Mumbai attacks.And from a Pakistani journalist.
This kind of behavior by the armed gangs of the State is shameful if not unusual. Innocent until proven guilty is not part of their legal vocabulary.
111 · Kumar_N said
Kumar,
I watched the World Trade Centers collapse from a window 2 miles from my office. I walked around New York that day. I smelt accrid smoke two days later. Everytime there was a plane that flew overhead I was nervous for a while. When t he war started, I was worried about both terrorist attacks and someone targeting me for being brown. kay?
I also watched what happened in the U.S. I watched how the government and people who echoed sentiments like yorus used a horrible spectacle of violence perpetrated by dickheads to create an even more horrible tragedy of violence perpetrated by dickheads. I watched them throw money down the tube. I watched them use their enormous power to support other things.
So if you want to tacitly sanction the killings of Muslims and Hindus in a false hope for security while neglecting every other issue that Indians face – most of which actually affect the daily lives of Inddians far more than “Islamic terorirsm” then by all means feel free to do so. Just know that that’s what you’re doing.
Good day, sir.
108 · Annie said
Annie, for shame. At a time like this you are playing petty politics. I can’t believe you are a lady. You are graceless and violent like Kali. And no amount of bloodletting will satiate your bloodlust. Even if Pakistan is handed over decimated to you, you will find new enemies within or without. Such is the nature of the fascist mind.
67 · Mystic River said
And what has Israel achieved ? Its surrounded by Hamas, Hezbollah and Al Qaida, along with a nuclear Iran which seek nothing less than its total dissolution, by violent means if possible. Military conscription is not the solution as India has never had a martial culture and Indians have never needed to maintain peace through arms.
Whats the solution? Its controversial. Have you ever thought why Bengal never has terrorist attacks given its potential for collateral damage considering Kolkata’s chaos and population density. Here’s a cue – our culture is open, feminine and accommodating, and we do not have any pretense to or claim on a martial pseudohistory.
So if you want to tacitly sanction the killings of Muslims and Hindus in a false hope for security while neglecting every other issue that Indians face – most of which actually affect the daily lives of Inddians far more than “Islamic terorirsm” then by all means feel free to do so. Just know that that’s what you’re doing.
Actually Dr. A has a point. We have to see this in perspective. Just over the last year more people are killed in two temple stampedes than the current terrorist attacks on Mumbai. No Muslims were involved in those two stampedes (though I think both were due to the rumours of an explosion or bomb attack). Imagine the deaths it would cause if someone spreads a rumour in Tirupati that there is a shooting going on.
Having said that we should not brush Islamic terrorism under the carpet. If 10 people can hold a city to ransom, another 10 people could sneak into the nearby nuclear facilities and with a little bit of technical knowhow can bring hell to India. I don’t know how easy or difficult it is to trigger a nuclear melt down.
For all his defects, George Bush at least kept mainland US safe from terrorists after 9/11.So, even if Narendra Modi becomes the next Home Minister or PM of India, people across the country will forgive and forget his alleged misdeeds if all he and the BJP govt would do is to ‘ensure a safe India’. We, the citizens of India, will take care of the infrastructure, social justice, inclusive growth and all other things on our own. The Govt need not help us at all.But we, the ordinary citizens, are powerless in stopping this evil of Islamic terror. So, we want the politicians to give us that. Even if that is the ONLY thing they can do, its fine.But they are counting the votes and money, and neglecting their duty.
Now that the dust is settling in Mumbai, it’s up to all Indians and South Asians who don’t support the terrorists to ensure that this event is not quickly forgotten as yesterday’s news. Does anyone know of any organized protest/awareness type event planned in the US?
Thanks for all the replies.
A few things that I don’t understand even now:
I don’t see how the above help in catching the terrorists? They are still escaping/terrorizing. Is not it more important to catch them and make the city safe rather than give theories/speeches on which group is to blame? Why was not an investigation done to pinpoint the culprits first? If Pakistan is blamed immediately without proof, the whole case looks very weak.
“I can’t believe you are a lady. You are graceless and violent like Kali” ….. how did this post get through the moderators ??? i guess its fine as she is insulting a Hindu goddess right. :O
for f&*#’s sake, no, I am not kayastha_lady.
Annie was actually being graceless and violent like Muhammad.
hehe ^-^ lets see how long b4 the thought police strike .
gesar, Kali has been discussed in a previous post, and a lot of posters excluding myself have alluded to the visibly violent aspects. Please remember this is an American blog and your holy cows are not untouchables here. If I have hurt your feelings, I apologize, but that does not mean I will change my views about your Kali Bhagwan. To my mind human Gods are the same as Pokemon.
P.S – I can’t go back and delete my post. So lets leave it at that.
Two things.
India’s harbor security was inadequate. They should have had around the clock patrols. The hotels should have their own private security. Finally, the train station needs surveillance cameras and security.
Stopping 10 motivated terrorists is very difficult. The only lasting way to end terrorism is political reconciliation. Rand came out with a recent study indicating most “terrorists” disputes are resolved by incorporating them into a political party. Kashmir needs to be split , or this low scale war will continue forever.
80 · bess said
Good question, but you will not get a complete answer here, given only tangential knowledge of India among posters here. As SM Intern said “this is a primarily an american blog”.
That said, I will try to give an incomplete answer, which you shd take with a liberal pinch of salt, given that I haven’t worked or paid taxes in India.
Tax rates in India are actually quite high, even after liberalization. My understanding is that income tax is only imposed by the Central Government (equivalent of the American Federal Government). Mumbai, as a big city, would have a municipal government. The Bombay police would probably fall under that. (It does in Calcutta). Mumbai, as a city in Maharashtra state would have some access to the state police. The impression I got from reading the various accounts of this (as well as the earlier controversy involving it) is that ATS is probably a state police force, and hence would be under the state budget. Initial security at the hotels would probably be given by the Bombay Police. The municipal government would be the body responsible for sending for help from the state or the central forces.
As regards revenue, the state and the city governments primarily have to rely on sales taxes, octroi duties, and in the case of the municipal govenments, from property taxes. There is huge amount lost on the collection side by tax evasion. There are probably bigger losses thru corruption on the procurement side. There are recurring scandals of similar nature starting right from independence (Krishna Menon, a close associate of Nehru and the then defence minister, was embroiled in one right after independence, either the same time as the first Indo Pak war, or right after it; unless I have got my dates mixed up. In my living memory, Bofors was the big one; as well as one involving George Fernandez around the time of Kargil.)
There are other structural issues as well. For the longest time, government branches such as the police were essentially looked as means to provide employment for the masses. The Indian Armed Forces, which is actually considered quite professional by the standards of a government organization; has personnel costs (salaries) as the biggest component of their cost structure (somewhere north of 50% ) leaving very little for equipment and modernization etc. I would imagine that police forces would have a similar cost structure, probably more skewed toward salaries, if anything.
There is also quite a bit of politicization of police forces (transfers are the weapon of choice), which always affects morale and training.
Been there done that — that was the very reason Pakistan was created
Political parties have been created quite often. The problem,– when former terrorists lose in the political process, they just return to guns.
Also moderate parties become ant-nationalistic over time, just to get further votes. (this is a feature of Indian democracy. In the US during primaries, the candidates take extreme positions because they have to secure their vote banks and come back to the center in the general elections to get the votes of independents, etc. In India there is no incentive to go after independents — the voter blocs pretty much determine whether they are elected or not.)
Huh? Kashmir was split. Despite the enormous advantage India had at the time, “Azad Kashmir” and the Chinese part of Kashmir, were recognized in effect, by the Simla Accord.
India has been going for territory for peace, giving up parts that had been Indian before independence.
China has on the other hand took over parts it never had and used its population and size to incorporate them, and waged war to further its borders.
It’s time for India to stop following advice that hasn’t worked for 60 years and to start doing something that does work.
The million dollar question is what is the response of Indian govt. going to be? Pakistan has started its usual spiel about “Give us proof and we will take action”..Indian govt. has got probably 100 days to election time…There’s really no time to “act tough”..The tough part is going to be left to the next govt.! And by that time things would have cooled down enough to let “voice of reasons” to come up?
Umm – maybe you shouldn’t speculate on how the Mumbai cops are getting this dude to spill the beans – (certainly not over a cup of hot chai!!)
“Kashmir needs to be split , or this low scale war will continue forever.”
I agree, similarly Britain should be divided into a Sharia and non-Sharia state to accomodate muslims like Anjum Chaudhary, otherwise BNP and muslim conflict will continue. Russia should give the Chechens the right to self-determination, the Chinese to the Uighurs, the Thai to the southern muslims. A confrontationalist approach towards muslims has proved to be counterproductive to world peace so far. The Americans have tried to force peace in Aghanistan for 4 years now. What has come of it? The world is far more unsafe than it used to be.
“Rand came out with a recent study indicating most “terrorists” disputes are resolved by incorporating them into a political party”
Is Rand, Ayn Rand? I used to have rape fantasies about Howard Roark has a child. Ayn Rand Objectivist philosophy rocks and is without parallel and exactly what the world needs.
Kayastha_Lady is Pardesi Gori, folks…I know she seems to have changed a bit since her earlier incarnation, but if you look closely and read between the lines, it’s very clear…maybe her latest boyfriend is an Islamist and hence we have her new cause.
I give her credit for using the same handle lately (kayastha lady) despite being banned more than once..but she’s an extreme troll. Britain should be divided into a Sharia and non-Sharia state to accomodate muslims like Anjum Chaudhary??
SM Intern, please please please ban her for good.
Actually, I wasn’t speculating, nor was I commenting on whether I supported or disapproved of any interrogation methods. All I said was I FIND IT DISTASTEFUL TO WATCH AND I DON’T GET ANY JOY OUT IT. Fairly simple statement, mate.
Doubt it. Sounds like she was parodying Pardesi Gori more than aligning. Judging by the straight-faced parody skills K_L has displayed, I’d say that he/she is the same person behind SpoorLam.
Enough speculation about K_L’s identity. Let’s just all recognize her trolling skills and be entertained.
A couple of you are not seeing the bigger picture as it relates to Kashmir. No problem, I have the same argument with my dad. India should employ the albino alligator diplomatic strategy. Make a sacrifice for the greater good.
I think it is generational thing. Old timers dont get it.
Thank you, Corporate Serf for taking the time to answer me.
What a high cost to pay in the long run – lack of security, equipment and training. Not that it has’t happened here – post katrina showed a thorough breakdown of govt. (So glad to hear Obama talk about rebuilding infrastructure in the U.S.)
Fairly simple and highly noble, yeti.
126
Well the Indian Coastguard and Navy patrol the west coast of India, but to monitor every single ship, boat and dinghy that enters India’s territorial waters without actionable intelligence is impossible. What good will private security offers do when their pitted against terrorists armed with enough weaponry to start a small war? CST already had CCTVs – whether or not they are actually reviewed is a different question.
Political reconciliation in Kashmir is not the answer to terrorism in mainland India. The terrorists weren’t Kashmiri. They were Pakistani and had no interest in being incorporated into Kashmir’s political mainstream. When one of Lashkar’s primary objectives is to establish a pan-Islamic South Asia (or basically wipe out Hinduism from the region), it doesn’t matter if Kashmir does or doesn’t gain independence. This isn’t about India’s fight for Kashmir, it’s about India’s fight to survive.
No, actually, I think it is a matter of having a spine and standing up to terrorists. I’m a young person by all means, but maybe it’s the Indian younguns that don’t ‘get it,’ and only care about traffic slowing them down on their way to meet their friends for drinks. I am seeing the ‘bigger picture’–I believe that you’re the one who isn’t.
Go back to reading the intellectually dishonest and despicable Pankaj Mishra, who in his recent piece in the NYT quotes Ratan Tata–the man who owns the Taj and received several warnings about terrorist attacks but did NOTHING to beef up security–in support of his sentiment that ‘India can’t do anything about terrorism so it should just give up Kashmir.’ Spineless, despicable, lacking in sense, lacking in dignity. What is wrong with so many people that they want to work AGAINST their interests??
I find it curious that Chidambaram is the new home minister. Now that Pakistan is on IMF dole, maybe India’s response strategy has a finance element to it. Not sure whether India would be able to block aid to Pakistan though.
Spiegel on the attacks.
I don’t understand how you went from the Rand Institute’s conclusion that most “”terrorists”” (and why exactly is that in quotations, btw?) disputes’ are resolved by incorporating them into a political party, to India needs to give up Kashmir. The boys that carried out this recent attack in Mumbai could’ve joined a political party in Pakistan, but they didn’t get along with their families and joined LeT instead because they wanted money to buy weapons so they could rob banks, and were eventually brainwashed (after which their family started respecting them apparently) and agreed to this mission so that their families would get large sums of money.
And you want the Indian government to accede to the demands (the one terrorist on the phone didn’t even know what their demands were! He had to turn to his friend and ask him!) of these “people”? (Note that I put people in quotation marks)
Every time I think Pankaj Mushra has hit his lowest point he surprises me and calls in from even lower. He’s now way past mud, slick, and slime and wallowing in filth. Biggest non-violent protests in Kashmir? My foot! This was a mob that having ethnically cleansed the Kashmir Valley of its Hindus in 1989 was now baying for their blood demanding that an ancient mandir in the Valley be demolished. Mishra is incomparable, even the worst appeasers in history would squirm to be compared to this piece of waste.
No way is it the same person behind SpoorLam. kayastha_lady is parodying the left (but not over-the-top enough for everyone to get it); SpoorLam was parodying the right. I wonder if it’s because everyone hasn’t understood that it’s a parody that k_l has been banned once already, or if it’s for ideological reasons, now that you bring up the similarity to SpoorLam (who was never banned despite pleas from moderate respected posters like Amitabh who found him to be over-the-top offensive on numerous occasions).
I am puzzled by the inconsistency of the terrorists. On the one hand they wanted to portray themselves as home grown terrorists (“Deccan Mujahideen”, the gunman in CST wearing Hindu arm band etc) and on the other hand they attack a Jewish center (in India: where persecution of Jews is unknown.) The latter event is like an Indian man watching western porn on cable TV and going out and making a move on every woman he sees: doesn’t work that way in India (or anywhere for that matter – but delusions created by the media are believed by a lot of people). Similarly, the terrorists have seen Israeli attacks on Palestinians on cable TV/videos provided by their Wahabi Imams in rural Punjab and seethed in anger against Jews. Feels weird! Like Islamic terrorism is like McDonalds. Homogenized products everywhere. Where a atrocity in Bosnia provokes anger in Indonesia where terrorists respond by killing westerners (with a few Israelis thrown in – for the heck of it)
Very irony challenged (and definitely displaying IQ in the medium double digits) RAND folks seem to forget that they live in a country that fought secession.
Could she be Prema/Valmiki/Doordarshan/ etc? Or maybe just a new troll.
That’s exactly why I believe they are the same person — good parody skills are rare, and a parodist’s target ideologies are always malleable. The last person who would be suspected of being a left-baiting parodist is a right-baiting parodist. Also, has anyone seen SpoorLam and Kayastha_Lady on the same thread?
====
AK:
The Deccan thing is a blind — nobody in India says “I’m from the Deccan”. As far as India goes, Deccan is only a geographic identifier, not a cultural one. It’s not like all self-identified Deccanis are banding together and fighting for equal access to the coast or something.
It’s always cherchez la femme with you cats! Maybe she is a he in heels and sequins, a breastplate and wings. Let’s talk more about happy molecules polycarbonate-free.
Kayastha Lady is Prema.
Mumbaikar is Chapekar.
That’s what you get when you remix the Lumberjack Song with Ride of the Valkyries.