As Ennis mentioned in the earlier post, there isn’t much we, as American bloggers, can add to the story from Mumbai as it continues to unfold on the ground. The time for blogging about the specifics will come in the next few days as more facts emerge. I recommend forgetting the news channels with their endlessly repeating video loops and paid talking heads. The best place to follow what is happening in Mumbai is to visit the wiki page created to compile all information about these attacks. It is continually being updated and the references section is terrific. There is also a Google Map of the region that has been created with all the attack sites highlighted.
Twitter has also been a great way to get details about what’s going on. Try typing Oberoi for example. “Terrorists trapped” also results in a slew of Tweets.
USE THE COMMENTS TO POST INFORMATIONAL FACTS or WORDS OF SYMPATHY ONLY. RIGHT NOW IS NOT THE TIME FOR RECRIMINATIONS.
240 · kayastha_lady said
sorry the above comment was for this post.
247 · Vikram said
Good point. Finally someone sensible on this thread. Yes, islamists convince themselves about muslims getting killed in such attacks with the justification of “greater good”. Given a chance they would obviously kill non muslims only.
Oh, poor young terrorist boy! I feel so sad for him. Poor little innocent…
The above was, of course, pure sarcasm, lest anyone misunderstand and take it literally.
I’m pretty sure that kayastha_lady is being over-the-top sarcastic… everyone ignore.
Gandhi is long dead. He is a noble man, we have enough statues of him already and a lot of places named after him. It is time to move on though.
What more the TV channels do?. I’ve observed that after every terrorist attack, (it’s become like a monthly show now) the TV folks bring some brother or uncle of a Hindu victim and a Muslim victim and ask them the same questions and they tell the same answers. At the end of the show everyone sings and join hands for a show of communal harmony and the show gets over till the next attack.
I don’t think the folks you mentioned above are secular or even minded.
LOOOOOLLLL!! you should call yourself ridiculous lady.
You think it ridiculous because you are in an excitable state of mind. It is understandable that people will be angry, and even bay for blood. Human beings after all share their instincts with animals. Its natural to feel tribal and murderous against ‘the other’. But think about this. Was killing the boy the only way ? He could have been captured by the commandos and sent to a remand home where he could have been reformed and shown the error of his ways. Maybe in time he would grow to be a responsible human being just like you and me. Have we robbed him of a chance to live. I feel sad for loss of life all around, the militants and also their victims. Hate me if you want. But killing is self-defence is not what my Upanishadic Hinduism that talks of One Spirit pervading all living beings and the universe talks about.
For those looking for condemnation of the attacks, ask any Muslim you see if they support this rubbish. I think it’s more likely that they (if South Asian) will express nothing sympathy and disgust at the ruthlessness of the attacks. You needn’t look to one group that appoints itself spokesman of the Muslim world to condemn the attacks – you will never find a group that speaks on behalf of a billion people.
To iForget: I don’t see the offense in this condemnation. I read it this way – they say there is no room for terrorism in Islam because so many people in the world think that Islam sanctions terrorism and because some idiot Islamofascists think so too. Regarding the “peace and justice” comment – some people are saying these attacks are because the Indian Muslim terrorists are taking revenge for being a repressed minority (or some similar drivel); I thought the statement was trying to say “even if the terrorists think they’re fighting for peace and justice, terrorism isnt the way to achieve that”.
It’s funny, I may be reading it completely wrong but then again so might you.
For all those seeking condemnation. Here is it: As a human, as a Muslim, I roundly condemn these attacks on innocent life as cowardly. Read into that what you want, but I can tell you I have yet to meet a Muslim in this world that would not condemn the attacks in Mumbai.
Kayastha lady
Freedom is an enormous luxury, and constraints on that freedom are the sacrifices one has to make in order to win that war and put scarce resources to best use. The fear of POTA etc is that the fascist will take over. My bigger fear is that without it there will be immeasurable more casualties, and terrorist will take over. World is not perfect and you have to choose between two bad alternatives. India’s neighbor and some of its resident are filled with people that believe in Darul- Harb concept. Even the Imam of Jama Masjid in New Delhi refuses to dennounce the concept that India is Darul harb and that it should be turned into Darul Islam. Archaic it may sound but essentially the concept means that considering India was ruled by muslims in the past, its duty of every muslim to turn it back into a muslim ruled land.
Lakshar’s stated goal (on its web page) is not just annexation of Kashmir, but destruction of the Indian republic. The terror will not go away if you appease them and give away Kashmir. It will embolden them.
The failure of leadership of moderate Islamic leaders has been staggering, both in India and internationally. However, as is often the case, lack of economic and social opportunities is a major cause at least in places like India, Pakistan, and the Middle East. The Economist, hardly a lefty rag, had a good (and depressing) article about the differential development statistics of Indian Muslims – it also has some of the usual Economist propaganda about small government which you may or may not believe, but I found the statistics quite damning. I am not able to find an ungated link to the entire article online, so I will just cut and paste here:
India’s Muslims
Don’t blame it on the scriptures Nov 30th 2006 | DELHI AND DEOBAND, UTTAR PRADESH
From The Economist print edition
Why India’s 150m Muslims are missing out on the country’s rise
GEORGE BUSH likes to point out that India has a vast Muslim population—the world’s second-largest after Indonesia—yet not a single al-Qaeda member. Even if this is true, it is far from the only measure of well-being. According to more conventional ones, India’s Muslims are faring terribly. They are disproportionately likely to be in prison, unemployed, illiterate and poor. India’s economy is growing fast, but the gap between Muslims and other religious groups is widening. Headlines refer to Muslims as the new dalits—the group, once known as “untouchablesâ€, at the bottom of the Hindu-caste heap. That Muslims are lagging has been known for a while. But discussing why, or what to do about it, has been taboo in a country proud of its peculiarly religious brand of secularism. Mohammad Hamid Ansari, chairman of the National Commission for Minorities, says that his organisation ritually files an annual report showing how poorly India’s Muslims are doing. Each year it somehow gets lost on its way to parliament.
That is why what is known as the Sachar report, after the former chief justice who chaired a government-appointed committee to investigate the condition of India’s Muslims, is creating so much heat. And why it was tabled in parliament only on November 30th, weeks after it was finished and presented to the prime minister. India’s non-Muslims sometimes suggest that the troubles of their neighbours in prayer hats are self-inflicted: obscurantist imams who equate education with the rote-learning of the hadith, sayings attributed to the Prophet; four-wived husbands with more children than they can feed; and a lack of drive to better themselves, perhaps brought on by a nagging feeling that they would rather be in Muslim Pakistan. None of this is true; the last accusation is particularly unfair. Madrassas such as the Darul-Uloom in Deoband, Uttar Pradesh, which proudly boasts of a curriculum largely unchanged since 1866, hardly equip their students to face the future, but only 3% of Muslim children attend them. Nor is it clear that the rulings of the orthodox, on anything from the evils of television to matters of family law, are obeyed. On polygamy, the most recent study (which is 30 years old) suggests that Muslim men are less likely than members of India’s other religions to have a harem. And hardly any Indian Muslims hanker after life in Pakistan.
The problems faced by Muslims are in fact more prosaic. Not enough of them have jobs and too few can read or write. This is not new. But according to Abusaleh Shariff, an economist who compiled much of the data in the Sachar report, there are two areas where the gap between Muslims and the rest has widened dramatically over the past ten years or so. He says that both literacy rates for Muslim girls and poverty rates among urban Muslims show something close to a worsening even in absolute terms. Part of the explanation for this phenomenon lies in where India’s Muslims live. First, they often occupy the old parts of big cities like Delhi, not the fast-growing new suburbs where wealth is created and spent. Or they live in the slums. As a result, measured by monthly expenditure, over 40% of Muslims living in cities fall into the poorest quintile of the population, compared with 22% of Hindus.
Second, despite large Muslim populations in southern and western states such as Kerala, there are far more Muslims in the north and east of the country, which is poorer and less well governed. That in turn has an effect on their schooling. In rural Uttar Pradesh, India’s most populous state and home to about one-fifth of its Muslims, only 30% of small towns have a primary school. For every kilometre a girl is from a school, her chances of attending it fall. In Kerala, where schooling is more plentiful, Muslim girls do well. Poor schooling explains another of the report’s findings, which is that Muslims fail to get jobs with the country’s largest employer—the government. Some of this is plain discrimination, particularly where the more menial types of government work are concerned. But entry into the highest levels of government service is meritocratic, judged on exam papers written by anonymous students. The problem here is rather that too few Muslim students stay at school long enough to sit the exams.
Too easily appeased
For the government of Manmohan Singh, the findings of the report offer a temptation. Indian politicians are fond of using quotas for minorities in everything from jobs to education to secure their political support. With the approach of a state election in Uttar Pradesh, due in the next few months, this will become more and more attractive. This would give the main opposition Bharatiya Janata Party yet another opportunity to accuse the government of pandering to minorities, especially Muslims. And the Supreme Court, which is so vigorous it sometimes seems to be running the country on its own, might object too, since India’s constitution prohibits discrimination on religious grounds.
Many Muslims argue that they are better off helping themselves, rather than holding out for the government. In fact they often seem to fare worse where they have more political clout, which easily translates into unreliable token promises, for, say, an increase in the number of teachers literate in Urdu, the language of Indian Islam. The leaked figures on government jobs show that Muslims do better in Gujarat, scene of an anti-Muslim pogrom in 2002, than in Bihar, where governments depend on their votes. “Muslims do well in education where the initiative rests with them,†says Mushirul Hasan, vice-chancellor of Jamia Milia Islamia University in Delhi. “Where they are dependent on government patronage they fare badly.†Muslim educational societies have begun to improve education in Kerala and the booming southern cities of Bengalooru (Bangalore) and Chennai (Madras). More are needed if Muslims are not to fall further behind as India prospers
Rahul
Please don’t post long articles here. I don’t think anybody here disagrees that the common muslims have nothing but vile hatred in their hearts for Jihad and Pakistan. Please don’t cause ennui. This is not the time to push our petty personal agendas.
kayastha_lady, if you were a hostage, how would you feel about that young looking boy when he separated you from the muslim hostages to execute you in a neighboring room because of a faith you or your forefathers belonged to. This happened. They spared a Turkish couple and executed three foreigners.
I think India’s response to this year of terror has been inherently nonviolent in terms of its reaction to the perpetrators in Pakistan. This is in turn fueling Hindu nationalism and helping people like Modi. Pakistan has to be made to pay or India will see communalism to a degree never envisioned. We need an Indira Gandhi in these times, someone who is not afraid to project India’s power to safeguard its citizens.
My bigger fear is that without it there will be immeasurable more casualties, and terrorist will take over. World is not perfect and you have to choose between two bad alternatives.
I choose to retain my freedom, than lose it to fear of losing an identity I am not wholely avowed to. Seriously, would converting to Islam, if that is what you say is the long-term aim of ‘Darul Herb’ or whatever it is – change or lessen my quality of life ? If such a switch is all it takes to end this madness, is it necessary to wait for the casualties to pile on until somebody’s vanity is satisfied ?
anthroguy:
FYI: Pakistan is hit by more suicide attackers over the past year than India. India can achieve nothing by attacking Pakistan. If it is done then it has more to do with shoring up the image of Congress / Manmohan / Sonia (assuming they still have something left).
This was not the condemnation sought, unless one is a sociopath, any individual is hurt by violence.
Condemnation at the community level, whether community leaders represent everyone or not, is what is needed. Otherwise, the terrorist groups gain legitimacy by default, just because no one spoke up as a community. And the terrorist groups make sure the community speaks up for their causes, such as the cartoon one.
Islam is a religion of wonderful individuals, but at the community level, they are represented largely by either morons or terrorists. It is a tragedy, and leads to stereotyping, but unless you can do something about it, you have no right to complain.
262 · kayastha_lady said
kayastha lady, “ennui”. Is that from your word of the day calendar?
In the beginning, when the first escapee let the outside know that they were looking for British and Americans, he mentioned he got out slyly while they let go another man who claimed to be an Italian.
Just pointing out that they didn’t just specifically let Muslims go when they were lining up the people at the hotel. (Added to the fact that they did fire without discretion as well.)
There was also an interview with a British man, Alan something, which I heard on either CNN or MSNBC. He mentioned that the one gunman he and the people around him were faced with, led two distraught women away
Perhaps you should read Bhagvad Gita where Krishna lectures Arjun on values of a strong Army and duties of a soldier.
Mumbai will bounce back sooner or later. It always does. But the law enforcement back home really needs wake the hell up.
Did anyone else find the flash ads on Indian Express, NDTV and Times of India annoying as hell? Also, what is up with the Map that CNN uses? Jammu and Kashmir (the entire state) is shown out of India as well as Pakistan! I wrote to them about it (archived on my blog if you click my name).
I accidentally posted before the comment was finished. So continuing #268 He said the gunman let them go and came back to the rest of them. It wasn’t really focused on much, he just mentioned it along with his whole retelling of the situation.
Again, this is just one guy, and he undoubtedly shot into crowds no matter whom he hit.
But to use the Turkish couple’s example would be disingenuous without mentioning the other instances.
Hey, Sadhvi case was foisted as a retribution for the Jammu agitation. Remember the Shankaracharya case. These Congress are real criminal who will do anything for foreign interest. Go to bharat rakshak.
Can we please go back on topic? This is not supposed to be about Islam or Muslims right now. I apologize for threadjacking myself earlier. And Rahul, I’m disappointed that you would choose to post that article at this point.
Have you visited Saudi Arabia recently? You won’t be allowed to drive let alone talk about freedoms on web log…. Clueless and amazing.
273 · iForget said
I will stick to condemning Muslim organizations so I can win back your trust.
258 · kayastha_lady said
Not just ridiculous, you seem delusional, lady. First off i have no murderous feeling against ‘the other’. What i find appalling is you calling a mass murderer a ‘little boy’, the forces killing the so called ‘little boy’ was not in self defense but was to stop him from killing more people. So yeah get off your high chair and stop quoting religion, after all the source of half the worlds problems are religions.
What a shocker that you try to paint me as some kind of bigot just because I disagree with you and because I expressed my genuine interpretation and reaction to reading something written by ONE organization. For what it’s worth, I can see how “condemnation”‘s interpretation of it might be more valid, and I admit I may have been reading it too emotionally. God forbid I actually have a legitimate emotional reaction of grief and anger about this.
277 · iForget said
Well, hopefully that will help you get over your disappointment then.
Lets not be too hard on Kayastha lady. She is having the same doubts that Arjun in Bhagvad Gita had about killing and wars. Krishna set him straight. She just needs to read on Hinduism a bit more.
Huh? I still feel that that one statement is kind of fishy and backhanded, but I admit that that’s just one interpretation. That’s all. Disappointment was referring to the fact that anyone, not specifically you, would post that Economist article now. If it’s not appropriate to point fingers now, it shouldn’t be appropriate to make excuses and blame the victims either. And with that, I’m going to discontinue threadjacking.
Concerning CNN and Jammu & Kashmir left out of the map of India and Pakistan.
Whole state, meaning Azad Jammu Kashmir was left out of the map as well?
279 · Vic said
Only if religion provided solutions instead of problems
True in a way…organized religion kind of sucks
War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things: the decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is worth a war, is much worse. When a people are used as mere human instruments for firing cannon or thrusting bayonets, in the service and for the selfish purposes of a master, such war degrades a people. A war to protect other human beings against tyrannical injustice; a war to give victory to their own ideas of right and good, and which is their own war, carried on for an honest purpose by their free choice, — is often the means of their regeneration. A man who has nothing which he is willing to fight for, nothing which he cares more about than he does about his personal safety, is a miserable creature who has no chance of being free, unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself. As long as justice and injustice have not terminated their ever-renewing fight for ascendancy in the affairs of mankind, human beings must be willing, when need is, to do battle for the one against the other.
You use words like “freedom” and “liberty” but I don’t think you understand what they mean. These concepts are more than just ideological stones for you to grind your anti-Indian axe against.
259 · condemnation said
Sorry there’s a type in there – I didn’t mean to include “(if South Asian)” which implies non SA-Muslims wouldn’t condemn the attacks either.
iForget – agreed, let’s get back to grieving. (fwiw you’re not at fault for reacting emotionally at first, we all do it first and then re-examine under a cooler head.)
why the bloody hell is the head of ISI visiting Mumbai? Him stopping by won’t make Indians any less suspicious.
6 explosions at nariman bhavan… bombs placed under dead bodies.
Raj…I think that there was a third hand (US) here that suggested the visit and ‘cooperation.’ I doubt that the Indian leadership asked for it or the Pakistani’s offered to send their top spy.
I agree with your assessment that it will not make indians any ‘less suspicious.’
279 · iForget said
I agree with “condemnation”, maybe with a cooler head, you will be able to distinguish between explanations, and excuses/blame.
India is caught between the proverbial rock and the hard place right now. On one side is the possibility of Pakistan collapsing, and every Mullah and his uncle making a beeline for India, because there is no other good place to go in the neighbourhood. On the other side is helping keep Pakistan afloat, and working with the treacherous ISI on trying to fight the terrorists.
Either way, the Line of Control is gonna fade, whether by peace or anarchy, we will have to see.
SilverLining is right – worse is with more extreme elements controlling Pakistan’s nuclear weapons, although there is hope that the army and the ISI will not let this happen (and the US would certainly intervene if things were getting out of hand on this front). At the very least, I am hopeful the new US administration will try to enforce more accountability in the way Pakistan spends its dollars, especially given that Pakistan is squeezed by its impending bankruptcy. Maybe the unstinted and unaccounted flow of money to Pakistan in the name of the GWOT that happened under Musharraf – and led to the ISI bulking up on weaponry – will cease.
198 · sequence3 said
If it’s the Rabbi who was murdered at Nariman, it’s because he was from Brooklyn. I’m not taking a side, just thought I’d offer that information. Besides, New York has a prominent Jewish community. Finally, those 200k desis are New Yorkers, who are HERE vs. a New Yorker, who was there.
So, it looks like the ISI chief won’t be coming to India afterall. So much for Pakistan doing everything it can to help.
Again I’m glad this is getting more press in the Western World. Perhaps this will attest to the fact that India is an ally they must work more closely with to stop terrorism. I am not sure how much counter-terrorism and security information is shared between countries like the US and India.
Unbelievable. Yes, you are indeed a troll. Why don’t you go ahead and convert to Islam right now, you don’t have to wait for the rest of us. I don’t think you could be any more sympathetic to these terrorists even if you did.
a) Do you agree that torture against the captured terrorist is justified in this case?
b) Despite all their faults, I admire the Indian Media for referring to the murderers as what they truly are – ‘Islamic terrorists’ instead of whitewashing and sugar coating them as ‘Gunmen’, ‘Militants’, ‘Fighters’, fundamentalists etc as they do in the western media.
115 · Pranay said
I know India doesn’t have experience with the media like the US, but they do have experience with people (after all they have over a billion). All I was saying was that they should cordon off a larger area than they have currently. There shouldn’t be random drunks milling about ground zero especially if there are still gunmen/terrorists located all around.
i.e. not questions about whether torture is justified.
One of the NSG commandos shown in a picture of the Mumbai coverage is using a Heckler & Koch PSG1 sniper rifle. That rifle was specifically designed after the 1972 Munich Olympic PLO terrorist massacre as an anti-terrorist weapon. The battle fields change, the war and enemy remains the same.
Even with well trained terrorists, the number of casualties is not that bad. and the state police after the initial disaster completely gave control to the special ops. I think they are pros (probably trained in the urban warfare in Kashmir ) and taking their own time.
One good thing is that, “no negotiations with the terrorists” policy works.
Vikram, you might be a good person to ask: what is the weapon that the NSG commando is holding in this image? The nearest I could guess based on the receiver, barrel and stock was a SIG-550 sniper or SIG-550 assault, but it’s not a perfect match. Would you know?