The latest Brown Girls comic made me cringe with unease when it popped up on my blogreader this week. Swiped from my latest blog addiction, Devis With Babies, this week’s Brown Girls episode made me wonder just how many similar conversations were had this election cycle.
As a SDMF (Single Desi Muslim Female) in my twenties, I’ve had my fair share of Brown Girls-type talk, usually over brunch and usually about boys. Many boys. Over the years, I’ve dated a Desi Hindu and a Black Muslim and I’ve always wondered with whom my parents would cringe less with — would their racial prejudice or Muslim orthodoxy take precedence? I’ve always thought they would be more accepting of a Muslim man, no matter what race, but my friends always begged to differ that racism prevailed over all. Of course, I would like to think that my parents would accept anyone that I would love, but we all know the desi Bradley effect there.
Truth is no boy over the years has met the bar to be introduced to my parents so I have no way to test this effect yet. But I am curious, if Obama is elected President, and my parents vote for him, will it be more acceptable for me to bring home a black man? If elected, will Obama essentially increase the desi dating pool of what boys us SDMFs can bring home? Single brown girls, what are your experiences with the Desi Dating Bradley Effect?
Way to go, Devis, on hitting the nail on the head on this one. I am Brown Girls comic latest biggest fan. Other Brown Girls Comics: Episode 1, Episode 2, and Episode 3.
I’ve always thought they would be more accepting of a Muslim man, no matter what race, but my friends always begged to differ that racism prevailed over all.
isn’t this strongly conditioned on how religious your parents are? my own exp. is a certain level of moderate racism can be taken as basal, but if they are really hardcore muslims that can nullify any racial bias if the individual is a “good” muslim (though obviously hardcore muslims might have problems with their children “dating,” there are ways to meet people at masjid, etc.). because of the officially universal nature of islamic fellowship i’ve seen plenty fundies being the least racist within their community.
two general points i would make to this post
1) it’s just an internet post obviously, but the objection that you’re collapsing all sorts of issues into a dichotomy comes to the fore immediately. after all, one can favor obama, even enthusiastically, while exhibiting hostility toward black americans. e.g., i know people whose logic is that obama might be black, but the republicans are racist, and racism of republicans trumps their own racism.
2) i’d take bets that barack obama changes things only insofar as shifting this country to the left, not re: race relations. india, pakistan and bangladesh have had female political leaders, but none of this changes the reality that these are very patriarchal cultures.
you’re seeing stuff like this all over the internet: Last week, Julie Hensley made one of her thousands of phone calls on behalf of Barack Obama. A woman answered. As Hensley ran through her short script, the husband impatiently broke in.
“Ma’am, we’re voting for the n***er.” And hung up.
specifically as far as brown folk go, there’s obviously a majority preference for “sharp” (read: west asian/european) features and lighter skin within the community. anti-black racism among brownz doesn’t have a strong historical salience as it does with white southerners, lots of brown folk probably just don’t want to see the “ugly” offspring. that’s probably the main reason that white SOers would experience somewhat less visceral revulsion; the children would turn out more attractive by the normative standards of the brown community than they otherwise would be.
um… I am having bad flashbacks to being part of someone’s rebellion against the parents.
Anyhoo… of topical note, sparks fly between Babar and Fatima on LMOTP. Of course, the cynic in me thinks the only reason this is being picturized is because neither of the two actors is muslim in real life.
non story
2 • su kaçağı said
How’d you make all them funky accent marks?
4 · don’t know what to say said
yes, racism, gender, parent-chidl relations, and sexuality are clearly competely irrelevant to the lives of south asians in the united states 😉
where do you people come from?
A few more things,
“’ve always thought they would be more accepting of a Muslim man, no matter what race,”
Black muslims have a different brand of practicing and a different social history in general. So muslim A doesn’t consider muslim B a true muslim.
let’s not forget the anti-bradley effect, that is, if black men are at the lowest end of the totem pole, it’s fairly obvious who is at the top end, of course all this is conditioned on choosing a mate out of race (for most desi parents anyway)
“anti-black racism among brownz doesn’t have a strong historical salience as it does with white southerners, lots of brown folk probably just don’t want to see the “ugly” offspring. that’s probably the main reason that white SOers would experience somewhat less visceral revulsion;”
Disagree, according to Vijay Prashad’s Karma of Brown folk, desi’s do have their own variety of anti black racism, of course it’s not entirely disconnected from the parent white variety, but the resistence to black SO’s goes a bit deeper than simple appearance. Besides, even if it is only appearance, the categorization of ‘white’ as beautiful and “black” as ugly is also an artifact of that very same anti-black racism perpetrated.
Desis including myself are going to vote for Obama not because he is black, but because he is not Mccain/Republican, his policies etc. Who in their right mind think that Obama is your typical black male? Seriously! He distants himself from the typical black people. How many kids out of wedlock does he have? None! He got the best swagger? Maybe! He would have never gotten the nomination if he wasn’t part of the white aspirations. He is just the black version of the American dream. But he is not the African American dream! I know a lot of black people who are voting for Obama just because he is black. They don’t care about his policies or experience. It’s part of the black reparations for them. They think that Obama is one of their homie. Alot of them are not voting for him because they believe America is not ready for black president. So If you are going by this article,I guess if you vote for Obama you are going to like Rap music. This country is going to crapper but who cares black people will get more booty because there is a black president.
SDMF’s, what would you parents say if you brought OBAMA home?
“I know a lot of black people”
Sure, Mr. Singh, sure you do…
Desi girl brings home a black dude. Sure the parents might cringe. Question is. If they cringe. How does desi girl deal with it? Is she willing to cut off parental relationships to live her own life? In some cases yes. Many cases no.
Thing is this, if I was the black dudes friend, being desi myself I would say to dude, run from desi girl and don’t look back.
I’m stunned after reading this story and these comments, to see the level of unembarrassed racism and race-consciousness that exists within the brown community, among both parents and adult children.
I agree with “don’t know what to say” that this ought to be a non story.
And I’m, suddently, increcibly grateful that my own parents aren’t racists, and never instilled these fears in me.
Can someone help me with my homework? It’s linear algebra, not too hard for all you macacs.
Hey Mr.Singh, Did u grew up in Alaska? Those are some mavericky statements u made there.
I can’t generalise based on one example. My friend (a Tamil Hindu) married a Bangaladeshi Muslim girl and her parents were quite happy. The funny thing is he had four weddings, one in a mosque, one in a temple, one when they registered the marriage and the general reception in the banquet hall with cake cutting etc. I teased him for his four weddings but he was sick and tired of it. He has to hide the mosque wedding from his parents and the temple wedding with the girl’s relatives. Her parents are Ok with it. It was fun to hear his stories. I asked, dude are u going to celebrate four anniversaries, for which he replied that they were planning to celebrate the day when they actually registered and ignore the rest.
As a desi lesbian dating a white American, I often wonder if coming to my parents would be slightly easier if I were dating a desi woman. I think they’ll freak out either way, though! 🙂
lol, if only I had the time to delve into the psycho-semantics of what drives desi women into the arms of Black men.
16 · Ashkar said
someone went to college!
Going by what I have observed, if Obama wins, it won’t be because Americans are open-minded enough to elect a black President, but because they’ve had enough of the current administration. Back in India, it’s called the anti-incumbency factor.
i’m not sure it would change anything for my parents – my mother does not see obama as a black person – not for the reasons that mr. singh stated, but because he was raised by his maternal (white) grandparents and she believes that his trying to ‘appear’ as a black man is just a play to appeal to black voters.
also, i would imagine that some population of the desi muslim parents would not think of black people as ‘real’ muslims (for various reasons), in which case, a black muslim man would essentially be seen as simply as a black man.
no fair! and if he does it, he’s not too far in his behaviour from the girl’s parents. yes, i would advise him how this thing might go, esp. before things get serious – but that’s not how it goes always – although i’ve never dated anybody (much less one from a ‘not allowed’ group) it would be hard to condone my parents’ racist behaviour.
i must say, though, that it’s not just the parents who feel this way – so many of my own desi friends have balked at the idea that i could get serious with anybody non-desi – in particular, anybody black. and my non-desi friends – most of them only try to set me up or suggest desi guys for me – despite my repeated statements that i would be fine dating anybody.
thanks for the post, taz!
7 · Mr.Singh said
Yeah, that would be the other candidate. Who knew Sarah Palin was not just female, but also black?
7 · Mr.Singh said
What? Wall Street is full of black people?
I think the election of Barack Obama would do wonders for inspiring African American youth across the country and reforming mainstream black culture. In his 2004 key note, he controversially said that it was the time to “turn off the televisions and eradicate the slander that says a black youth with a book is acting white.” I think the imagery behind his presidency is inspiring enough, but coupled with a vigorous attempt to improve education in our urban communities will have a very profound effect.
George Will said pretty much the same thing after the Powell endorsement.
Wouldn’t they say – he went to Harvard, his father went to Harvard, his mother has a Ph.D, but I wish he didn’t smoke?
There are many indian parents who would be upset even if the person being introduced is white. This has as much to do with cultural identity as plain racism.
“But why didn’t he go to medschool?”
16 · Ashkar said
seriously, did it not even for a second occur to some people that maybe, just maybe, some desi women are “driven into the arms of Black men” because they might perhaps love the person for who they are? why the hell does a desi women with a black man have to be “driven” to it. As a desi woman in a relationship with a Black man that is going to lead to marriage, despite parents’ reaction, I would like to state that for some of us, it is a choice based on love and not some messed up idea of not having any other options. Maybe, some desis dont have the same parochial ideas about race that have been expressed in some of the above comments.
Obama will do for political black youth the same that Arthur Ashe did for black tennis player or Tiger Woods did for black golf players: NOTHING.
obama will do for racism what goldman sachs did for ant-semitism on wallst, which is not to say he’ll end it, but rather show us the way to overcome it.
What is this dating and love of which you are speaking? Where is filial piety?
30 · Auntie N said
i agree with auntie. stop acting white
Such a White conversation, circa 1970s.
19 · ak said
Yeah man, I also think that is no fair. Because some of us women don’t care what race the guy is, as long as he’s a voter. But I can’t control if his desi friends impart f***ed up cultural issues from the community that I personally don’t feel. I’ve had this come up a couple of times when dating black men.
desiwoman – totally got your back.
Razib – to throw another direct correlation into your analysis – despite how religious my folks are, the closer I get to 30, the more willing it seems they are to not have racial preferences. This past year my mom was telling me she’d be ok with me marrying a white guy – something unheard of ten years ago. I think I’ll ask her the what she thinks of me marrying a Hindu Desi or a Black Man.
To compare politics and education to sports is not fair. Golf and tennis are boring compared to the alternatives, but there is no alternatives to education and politics. Politics surrounds us, while sport is recreation and an escape. Im not saying that this is the cure for all racial problems, but it is one hurdle that is cleared. It is one more excuse that cant be used in order to blame problems on and that is a positive thing and I dont see any harm in it.
And the dating thing will become a less and less of an issue once Indian’s figure out that it is impossible to hold out your whole life for a color. It might still be a problem for your parents, but ask yourself if when the time comes will it be a problem for you as a parent and there is your answer.
Indians in India on the other hand are stuck in the dark ages of race and will be there for maybe another 200 hundred years. Here is a clip of a Indian crowd chanting “He is a monkey” at a black cricket player and it makes you lose faith in India as a country.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OEtGOoGvXvI
34 · ShallowThinker said
yikes. cringe inducing. i jumped into a cab the other day and the kenyan driver immediately asked me, “are we going to win?” meaning obama. a long political discussion ensued which eventually got to racism and he asked me why indians hate blacks and i said in my typically glib style “we hate blacks because we hate ourselves” which he really really liked. “that’s profound man, profound;” he said.
then he told me Africans aren’t racist at all. i said; “wow, that’s wild.”
I don’t think you can argue that Obama won’t change the personal Bradley effect at a macro level. When suddenly, you look more like the President than the majority of your community, clients, classmates, etc., something, at some level, changes fundamentally.
hell, my mum would LOVE for me to bring home someone of a different race! I think she’s mildly frustrated/bored that my sisters’ lives are so similar to her own!
36 · Sandeep Sood said
hmmm, never thought of that. we live in interesting times. definitely going to be an entertaining 4 years.
I’m not at the stage in my life wbere marriage is an issue, but I can honestly say that a middle class black guy and a middle class white guy would be received with equal amount of cringing in my family. Preferring desis has to do with cultural identity than racism. I don’t think I would have the patience to walk them through the myriad of rules and norms that someone raised in a desi family would already by familiar with. But I realize that there are desis who actually see this as a problem. I know a girl whose family my white best friend calls “white-washed” and her dad told her that she couldn’t marry anyone who was black or S. Indian (because kids will be dark) and any other ethnic group would be too conservative to accept her. I sometimes feel the skin colour thing is much stronger in N. Indian families than it is in S. Indian families because I have never heard anyone in my family talk of a dark complexion as a detriment to beauty.
A related issue:
Who knows what lies in the hearts of sistagirls…
29 · Manju said
Desis on wall-street don’t need someone to show the way to overcome racism, what decade are you living in?
Taz, What’s missiing from your post is the race/culture dymanic between you and the guys you say you dated. What did they think of the fact that they could not meet your folks? it couldn;t have been easy from anybody. What if the situation was reversed? I know this may all be very personal but since you decided to post….let’s hear the whole story. It might provide more focus to the discussion. Otherwise, its this tpoci is destined to be stuck on first gear on the SM freeway.
The black community in America is mixed in with many races (Native American, European, East Asian (ex Tiger Woods), South Asian, Middle Eastern) with African ancestry connecting all of them. In the Caribbean, you do have some interracial marriages between the South Asian population and the black population.
There may be the generic bias against race that one race has against another. Black Americans can be racists too. Just because a minority group has a history of being oppressed does not mean they do not have prejudice against other races and cultures and religions.
There is then the question of dating and marriage. Obama is a good case. He is bi-racial but people react to him as a black man not a bi-racial man, not a white man though he grew up with his white mother and white grandparents. His African father divorced his mother and returned to Kenya when Obama was a toddler. He has also accepted himself as a black man as he wrote in one of his books. When he was a child he did not realize he needed a “race” until later. Too bad the world did not let him keep such a view. But he is comfortable being a black man of mixed heritage with a racially and religiously diverse family – white, black, asian (half sister by his mother and Indonesian step dad), Christian, Muslim, Jewish (Michelle Obama has a black relative who is a Rabbi, yes a Black Rabbi).
One resistance people have to interracial marriages is that the children of an interracial marriage may identify with one of the parents race. It depends on which race the child can pass for – some black-white children look white, and the black community is less accepting of those who pass for white.
Actually in England there are many White English who have black ancestors from blacks free from the slave era. Or another ironic example “James Watson, the man who worked with Francis Crick to identify the double-helical structure of DNA, who upon casual inspection might well qualify for the title of “most blatantly Caucasian male” among a raft of serious contenders that includes Mitt Romney, Tucker Carlson, Harry Reid and Peyton Manning, is actually black! An Iceland-based genomics company, deCODE genetics, conducted an analysis of Watson’s DNA, which Watson had allowed to be placed on the Internet, and found that 16 percent of his genes are likely to have come from a black ancestor…Indeed, the racial outing of Watson was quite a surprise — most likely to the 79-year-old Nobel-prize winner. This past October he was forced to cancel a tour promoting his new book in England after opining in a British newspaper that he felt “inherently gloomy about the prospects for Africa†because “all our social policies are based on the fact that their intelligence is the same as ours — whereas all the testing says not really.†Jim’s fretting left him without a job at home — he retired from his job as chancellor at the Cold Spring Harbor Laboratory in New York — and no longer especially welcome on the speaking circuit anywhere serious. Finding out one has black genes seems especially inconvenient for somebody proclaiming blacks to be genetically inferior.” http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/22248094/
41 · DesiInNJ said
i didn’t mean to imply the O-man would show desis how to evercome racism…I meant wasps.
FYI Africans as a community have been living in India for centuries:
” Long before the first slave ships started supplying labour to the cotton plantations of the American south, and many centuries before the first Africans were brought ashore to the sugar estates of Brazil and the Caribbean, Africans were being sold as slave-soldiers for India’s princely states.
Their descendants are the least visible part of the huge African diaspora.
But today in India, almost lost among the mosaic of different cultures and communities in that country, are tens of thousands of people of African descent.
They are known as Sidis.
Slavery Although they came at first as slaves, they were so successful as fighters that they at times usurped power from the rulers they were supposed to be serving.
“The Sidis are descendants of African slaves, sailors and servants, and merchants who remained in India after arriving through the sea trade with East Africa and the Gulf,” says Amy Catlin of the University of California, who is making a special study of Sidi culture.
“That was a process which began in the 12th century or before, and lasted until the late 19th century”.
Lost touch Some Sidis are keenly aware of their past, and a few remain in touch with relatives in Africa. But in the western Indian state of Gujarat – where most Sidis live – the community has lost touch with its roots.
The village of Jambur, deep in the Gir forest, is one of two exclusively Sidi settlements.
It is miserably poor.
The headman explains that yes, everyone in Jambur is a Sidi.
Their forbears came from Africa.
But they have lost any knowledge of African languages, and don’t know where exactly their ancestors came from or why they settled in India.
Music and dance The only remnant they retain of their African lineage is their music and dance. This is what Professor Catlin, an ethno-musicologist, hopes to use to fill in the story of the Sidis.
“In Gujarat, affinities with African music include certain musical instruments and their names”, she says, “and also the performance of an African-derived musical genre called “goma”.
In the nearby town of Junagadh, a smaller group of Sidis lives alongside the shrine of Bava Gor, an ancient Sufi Muslim holyman who was himself of African descent.
Their hold on their African past is a little more secure.
They say they know a few songs in an African language, but not their meaning.
And their dance is more obviously African.
But again, their music, song and dance are the only links with their African past.
Amy Catlin believes that the Sidis of western India came from coastal and inland villages in east Africa which were raided by slave traders.
But that’s far from certain.
Indeed, one legend has it that the Sidis of inland Gujarat originally came from Kano in northern Nigeria, and ended up in India after undertaking a Hajj pilgrimage to Mecca.
Music may be the only key that can unlock their past.
If you have any idea where the Sidis come from, please use the e-mail form below. Andrew Whitehead will use a selection of your e-mails on a forthcoming edition of the BBC World Service radio programme The World Today” http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/1035389.stm
22 · liberallamp said
I hope it has the same effect. Black youth desperately needs good role models…not the drug dealers driving pink range rovers who ‘made it’.
46 · stark said
when drug dealers drive blue range rovers we’ll finally know we’re free at last. thank godalmighty.
42 · Neale said
Neale,
How about next time you are in LA, we can discuss this over dinner? 😉 In the meantime I’ll let the people who are able to be anonymous lead the conversation here. Knowing that both boys (and other boys) read this blog, I’ll respect their privacy.
41 · DesiInNJ said
I think you’re not understanding what racism is. It’s a system – albeit one that works through ideas as much as institutions. Desis on wall street might have achieved high economic or social status (with varying attitudes by their employers towards their race and vice versa) but that doesn’t mean that they’ve somehow gotten out of the racial hierarchy. They might actually need more help, since the closer you get to power, the more likely you might be to adopt its ideas, including racism agains the poeple below you.
So, you’re single ? 🙂