Especially if you are a smart, attractive, single desi woman. Seriously. This isn’t about desi women in particular but you’ll see how this information could be used for evil especially by desi parents. I know some of you forward posts to your parents but don’t do it with this one. You’ve been warned. NSFP=Not Safe for Parents.
Ok, now that I’ve cleared my conscience let’s get to the article at hand shall we? Slate.com recently published, The Eligible-Bachelor Paradox, which makes use of game theory to explain why the best women often end up single and alone if they wait “too long” to get married. We’ll save judgement for the end:
The shortage of appealing men is a century-plus-old commonplace of the society melodrama. The shortage–or–more exactly, the perception of a shortage–becomes evident as you hit your late 20s and more acute as you wander into the 30s. Some men explain their social fortune by believing they’ve become more attractive with age; many women prefer the far likelier explanation that male faults have become easier to overlook.
The problem of the eligible bachelor is one of the great riddles of social life. Shouldn’t there be about as many highly eligible and appealing men as there are attractive, eligible women?…Actually, no–and here’s why. Consider the classic version of the marriage proposal: A woman makes it known that she is open to a proposal, the man proposes, and the woman chooses to say yes or no. The structure of the proposal is not, “I choose you.” It is, “Will you choose me?” A woman chooses to receive the question and chooses again once the question is asked. [Link]
So what have we learned so far? Despite the fact that men usually propose, it is the woman that typically dictates if and when a marriage will occur. In a free and modern society (meaning no forced or pressured marriages) the real power rests with the woman. Let’s go on then:
You can think of this traditional concept of the search for marriage partners as a kind of an auction. In this auction, some women will be more confident of their prospects, others less so.In game-theory terms, you would call the first group “strong bidders” and the second “weak bidders.” Your first thought might be that the “strong bidders”–women who (whether because of looks, social ability, or any other reason) are conventionally deemed more of a catch–would consistently win this kind of auction.
But this is not true. In fact, game theory predicts, and empirical studies of auctions bear out, that auctions will often be won by “weak” bidders, who know that they can be outbid and so bid more aggressively, while the “strong” bidders will hold out for a really great deal. [Link]
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So the brilliant and attractive women hold out for someone worthy of their brilliance and attractiveness. Who could blame them? But, meanwhile, the “tier two” women claim their men with their womanly ways, thus removing them from the “game,” leaving the tier one women with fewer candidates that are perhaps, and I quote, “short, socially awkward, underemployed.” Now what about men like me…ahem…cough cough…tier one…cough…men that are still unmarried and ripe for conquest by those aging tier 1 women? I’m guessing we (not me in specific of course, just other tier 1s) might be defective in terms of our megalomania or commitment phobia. James Bond syndrome. So we are essentially out of the game as well (until maybe a much younger tier one or two woman clubs us over the head and aggressively claims us).
Where have all the most appealing men gone? Married young, most of them–and sometimes to women whose most salient characteristic was not their beauty, or passion, or intellect, but their decisiveness. [Link]
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The article concludes with a warning. If you want to win this “game” then follow the advice laid out here. Aggressively choose a mate while you are still young. However, you must first believe that the “prize” is worth winning. That is a much more difficult question. A mate isn’t life’s only prize, or even its most important one depending on your view of things.
195 · HMF said
wanting two contradictory things (two mutually exclusive things, or two very disparate states of being/the world) is not hypocrisy. from dictionary.com, where hypocrisy is defined as:
and from your link to the idiomatic meaning of “having your cake and eating it too:”
now, it is very hard to conflate the two, but HMF, you have managed that feat as well. you have a faculty that allows the interpretation that is most convenient to your POV. just seeing your selective quoting and making strawmen out of other people’s arguments makes me sick.
Where did people get the idea that marriage ISN’T for the vast majority of people about “settling”?
I think that’s difference between our generation (and not just young desis, i mean everyone living a privileged life under say 40) and those that came before us…
life for them was about taking on responsibilities and obligations … the pursuit of “happiness” was an afterthought …
for better or worse, things have changed.
While on the subject of selective quoting, re the definition of hypocrisy, how about you read the second definition from that very site (www.dictionary.com):
“The practice of professing beliefs, feelings, or virtues that one does not hold or possess; falseness.”
and somehow you don’t see the correlation between this and wanting two “good things” at the same time? Maybe you should extend your definition of “good things” to “beliefs, feelings, and virtues”
ie. women wish for equal treatment in the work place (good thing #1) and want to keep the male-female differences that work out in their favor (such as men making the first approach, men paying for things as an indication of commitment to a relationship, etc…) (good thing #2)
and how is this not a rendering of hypocrisy if the belief professed is, “men and women should be treated equal in the eyes of society” (now if that belief isn’t professed, then I completely agree, there’s no hypocrisy)?
Where you’re getting hung up is the sense of eating and having relating to a definitionally impossible situation, like the one’s you quoted. (ie security of marriage, excitement of affairs) because by definition, it’s impossible to have a secure marriage and engage in multiple affairs (in the majority of cases, secure = lack of affairs or something that could lead to break up).
I’d say its used to describe any contradictory desires, whether its definitionally impossible or not.
Even with this restrictive POV, I see “equality” defined as absolute, across the board. To push for it selectively goes against its definition, and is hence hypocritical, and having and wanting to eat your cake.
It’s very easy to conflate ideas when they are more or less conflatable.
dravidian lurker:
it is a proven fact that indian women, on the other hand, are raised by known lotharios who swagger around with flashy unbuttoned shirts, sparkling gold chains, and shiny new ferraris. and lord knows indian women are told from day one to engage in the “dating” process.
poor baby. understands neither women nor stephen colbert. hopefully, your hand is not passive or acclimated to the western system
This is hilarious. Keep ’em coming!
And what’s wrong with going to mass? I’ve attended masses as well. I don’t know about the rest of you lot, but none of my folks has any hang-ups about participating in ‘Christian’ religious activities like putting up a Christmas tree, attending church etc though they’re Hindus. I think my mother would prefer if I converted to another religion than if I remained the atheist that I am! Which is one of the hardest parts of dating desi in fact, most people are overly religious for me! I actually discussed this with my parents and I don’t think dating desi is any easier than dating any other race – especially when you’re in a situation when the only desis you could possibly ever date come from India, across the Channel or across the Pond. There will always be a culture difference, and I’ve noticed huge culture differences even on this site between UK desis and American desis, and between myself/UK desis/American desis. It’s not all that clear-cut you know!
just seeing your selective quoting and making strawmen out of other people’s arguments makes me sick.
Im just waiting for a masturbation clincher. You’re almost there.
deemz – Marriage and growing up is still about responsiblities. I swear my generation of young adults is gonna hit hard when they wake up from this sleep.
There’s basically a lot of fluff in people’s heads about growing up. People are generally in denial about age and what comes with it. But nature is nature.
Also I think marriage is pretty much secretly detested by a lot of males. When you mess around with a lot of females, just one ain’t gonna get it done.
Bang Gully,
I agree with you, and especially on this point:
““There’s basically a lot of fluff in people’s heads about growing up”
and off we are to pinlandia (the true expanse of that beautiful world cannot be captured in but one comment, but the patient reader is guaranteed many a laugh).
i think you’ll have to do it yourself. but you must be familiar with that. so there.
HMF, I am not going to engage in an argument with you. I just found the back-to-back ludicrous explanation extravaganza that you and boston_mahesh provided too glaring to let pass without comment.
182 · khoofia the okapi said
Like this?
yeah, so some women are hypocrites. these same women also want to have their cake and eat it too. OK — some instances of ‘having…..’ also qualify as hypocrisy. that doesn’t imply those things mean the same thing semantically.
for example: x lies to y and says, “i’m not a racist. some of my best friends are people of z race.” x secretly attributes all kinds of negative stereotypes to z race, and avoids going to z areas or associating with what he thinks is z culture. we might say that x’s behavior is deceitful, prejudiced, and hypocritical. but, semantically, deceitful != hypocritical != prejudiced. however, all three are applicable to a particular instance.
similarly, hypocritical != having your own cake and eating it too. both may, however, accurately describe different aspects of the same situation.
other (sane) mutineers: sorry about being schoolmarmish. but why should the domain of language be the prerogative of only safire-ish curmudgeons? 🙂
i’m not going to interrupt HMF’s message again. however, at this point, the novelty has worn off.
OK — some instances of ‘having…..’ also qualify as hypocrisy.
Thanks for this backtrack, I’d say though in many cases, wanting to have two contradictory things (or definitionally incompatible things) is ultimately rooted professing a certain belief system then acting in ways that contravene that belief system.
Ie. your example of wanting secure marriage and lots of affairs, stems from believing that marriages should be secure, and believing in the mutual caring involved in long term spousal relationships, yet if you don’t act in a way that supports that belief system, it could be considered hypocritical behavior.
that doesn’t imply those things mean the same thing semantically
Well, I wasn’t necessarily arguing they were exchangeable terms, however in this particular instance, given the example and explanation accompanying, you’ll see they are examples of hypocrisy and can be equally described as wanting to have your cake and eat it too, as per the idiomatic definition.
other (sane) mutineers
takes one to know one.
HMF, I am not going to engage in an argument with you
It’s tough to discern intent, you wrote, I responded back.
i think you’ll have to do it yourself. but you must be familiar with that. so there
Wow, what an unpredictable response.
Speaking of predictable, your take on women-men interactions is a sure bet; as foretold as a period on the pill.
your take on women-men interactions is a sure bet;
It has the advantage of being rooted in sound analysis.
Thats rich, you seem pretty good at judging people and applying that judgment on entire race!
Whereby the ‘sound’ is caused by the rattling of your own faulty logic and the ‘analysis’ bit really means conjecturing by way of anecdotes which are coloured by whatever residue bitterness from primary school bullies and that pretty desi girl who once long long ago dumped you for a white man…
Whereby the ‘sound’ is caused by the rattling of your own faulty logic and the ‘analysis’ bit really means conjecturing by way of anecdotes
How is it faulty? Please point it out.
Port even aquiesced my point regarding hypocrisy to some extent (she had to save some face in front of you all I guess). I’ve used both anecdotes and analysis, and where I’ve used anecdotes I’ve stated it as such. Do you really think that there isn’t a generalized perception amongst women that desi men are more socially awkward than non-desi men? No one else here has seemed to question that.
bitterness from primary school bullies and that pretty desi girl who once long long ago dumped you for a white man
And you forgot, my hand isn’t tired or acclimated or however you want to frame that reference.
this is not a backtrack. maybe you weren’t taught the ‘belongs to’ relationship in high school. let me break it down for you.
some people are americans. this does not mean that you can use the word ‘americans’ and ‘people’ interchangeably. similarly, some hypocrites like to have their cake and eat it too. this does not mean that the two are conflatable. some hypocrites are liars too. this does not mean that all liars are hypocrites.
i realize that your hilariously wrong-headed logic forces you to consistently engage in self approbation and self pleasuring because those are the only kinds available to you. and far be it from me to stop you from the former, because this is the singularly most belly-laugh inducing comment i have ever read on sm. and as i said, your misconceptions of the world only hurt you, so far be it from me to stop you at the expense of my humor.
once long long ago dumped you for a white man
oh and don’t worry, she got hers. If there’s one thing you can always, always, count on (other than me being constantly reminded of or asked about my developed hypothenar muscles, it’s the deep seated, deeply-embedded nature of white racist “orientalism”.
Port,
No need to apologize! I think most of us (sane) mutineers quite enjoy your witty comments. Too bad you were lashing these recent ones out at a misprogramed man-bot that may (sniff! sniff!) become a real life boy one day.
some people are americans. this does not mean that you can use the word ‘americans’ and ‘people’ interchangeably
Yes I understand this, like I said, I wasn’t arguing for interchangeability, in the midst of your guffaws maybe you should read the post where I stated that.
And your example is illustrated by say, concentric circles in a Venn Diagram, (ie all americans are people, unless you’re extending your definition to include animals, etc..) being hypocritical and having your cake and eating it too are examples of circles that have a non-zero intersection. (I believe the intersection is high, given my definition of “wanting two things” extends beyond the definitionally impossible), and neither port nor you have provided a case of hypocrisy that cannot be at least related to wanting to have ‘two good things’ simultaneously.
in this chapter of hmf’s english and logic education, we will further study the notion of ‘contained in’.
when A is contained in B, it means all A are B, but all B are not A. for example the usage here is the natural kind of mistake made by one with the logical ability of a first grader (apologies to the precocious ones). when a person says that they want to have one’s cake and eat it too, they are being inconsistent or asking for something that is not possible, not hypocritical – that would be expressing an insincere opinion, or judging others by different standards than one judges oneself (which actually describes a certain three-letter-acronymed poster on this board perfectly). so the sentence linked above which makes the logical leap from the cake-having to hypocrisy is a logical fallacy. sort of like contradicting a statement that “i am a person” with the response “so you must be an american”.
that concludes today’s lesson. teacher has more important things to do in life than waste all this time on the village idiot. hilarious though he is.
What? Your intimate knowledge of hypocritical female behavior comes from inhabiting a woman’s body and living her experiences? After all, it takes one gold-digging vixen to recognize another one, yes? Reader — behold this reincarnation of Teiresias in our midst! Move over Transmerica’s desperate housewife, sepia has its own Infelicity HuMFfman.
220 · non-sequitur said
non-sequitur, i appreciate the sympathy. all i need now is a cuppa chai (and a marie biscuit to dunk in it) to make my life wonderful.
Every few months a similar article surfaces. The bottom-line is, the ambitious ABD female gets the short-end of the stick. I have noticed the same at the many people I know and the many Clients I have been at. There are numerous unmarried desi-females in early 30s.
@216 Meena wrote:
Well, I’ll just get a pretty desi girl living in South Asia. The desi girl living in South Asia can speak fluent Hindi/Punjabi/Gujurati/Urdu/etc, knows about Indian culture/traditions (perhaps cooking) unlike the Indian-American/ABCD girl.
I, for one, am quite happy that loads of Indian-American/ABCD girls are dating/marrying whites, blacks, latinos. I can concentrate 100% on desi girls living in South Asia.
PS – HMF and boston mahesh speak the truth.
Desi girls in South Asia > Indian-American/ABCD girls
when a person says that they want to have one’s cake and eat it too, they are being inconsistent or asking for something that is not possible, not hypocritical
again. try reading. Are you saying one group is a subset of the other? as in the people-american relation? which is your super set? cake wanting/eating?
I addressed the “definitionally impossible” interpretation, but I find that to be too narrow of an interpretation. according to your own words, being hypocritical is
“judging others by different standards than one judges oneself”
as in for example, believing a man should act in a way that is inconsistent with equality of sexes (they should make all efforts in relationship starting) and believing a man should act in ways that is consistent with equality of sexes (in the workplace, etc…)
teacher has more important things to do in life than waste all this time on the village idiot.
like prove he’s a bigger idiot.
What? Your intimate knowledge of hypocritical female behavior comes from inhabiting a woman’s body and living her experiences?
err no. you were calling others sane, as if to imply I was insane. and I said it takes an insane person to know one.
226 · TheBrownReasonakaTheBrownChamp said
for our sakes, i hope your types stay away from desi south asian women. there is no dearth of good men in south asia that we have to hitch our wagons to you essentializing america rejects. as for our ABD sisters, they must be sighing in relief. good riddance! it’s only your passport that is letting you get your foot in the door. really, refrain from talking too much in the company of desi girls in the desh. they won’t be too flattered to hear that you’re basically in the market for a pliant maid.
they won’t be too flattered to hear that you’re basically in the market for a pliant maid.
maybe desi girls should also not transmit they’re in the market for an endless wallet.
229 · 1.5er said
I love how you are trying to defend your behenein in the desh, but don’t put lipstick on a pig. You can be a total dickwad and still get a million girls to marry you to get to America.
sometimes things just correct themselves
maybe this phenomenon is why the divorce rate is going up…it takes 20 years for someone to realize they married second tier
228 · HMF said
no, i was trying to clarify that “one doesn’t have to be one to know one.” for instance, you don’t have to be a woman to make valid assertions about women. you don’t have to be a man to make an assertion about men. if it were the case that one has to be x to make valid claims about x, we would have a hard time communicating with other people because we’d be wildly off about where they’re coming from. because, by definition, i am not you. (and thank heavens for that!) thus, i don’t have to be a practitioner of defective logic to recognize the lack of logic in your arguments. we don’t need to be insane to recognize signs of insanity. i was just taking your argument literally — a claim if true, would render mentally healthy psychologists jobless.
speaking of shrinks,dude….maybe…uh…..you….could…..perhaps…you…know…take…advantage….of….her…uh…services. ….WHAA????no-no-not-in-that-way,-HMF. that would be a violation of medical ethics, my god!
230 · HMF said
in that case, it’s not so bad. girls in the market for an endless wallet. boys in the market for a docile cow. everybody gets what they want. pareto optimality achieved. fair trade. end of story.
gruhasthu, i was implying that south asian women would do better to stick to a south asian man because a certain type of second-generation guy would not be worth the trouble. even for the right passport. those who marry dickwads for a green card will pay the price for it – sooner or later.
[ps: i did admit that some girls will be taken by the chance to go abroad: “it’s only your passport that is letting you get your foot in the door.” in that case, these women know the goods they’re getting. for some, that deal is worth it. to them, i say, congratulations and enjoy the honeymoon. because the rest of life could be long and excruciating.]
and, more importantly, of plausibility, given that hmf, out of necessity, only has access to self-service. the only psychiatrist who might be suited to do such a pathetic job is b.d.wong – because his entire purpose is to patiently provide exposition to the idiot observer (“the perp cut off the victim’s genitals before ejaculating all over her body. he must have had a sexual motive.”)
no, i was trying to clarify that “one doesn’t have to be one to know one.”
you’re really on a pedantic trip aren’t you.
The weight of the phrase comes from the fact that, as you say it’s not literally true, yet could be true in certain instances where large scale personality traits are concerned (ie sanity, cleanliness, morbidity, etc….) It’s whats called ‘tongue in cheek’
don’t have to be a practitioner of defective logic to recognize the lack of logic in your arguments.
but, you are the former, and are incapable of doing the latter.
only has access to self-service.
what is that like, up to 5 for you?
so then what of ABD guys – with all these accusations of hypocrisy, the same must apply to men. which also begs the question – assuming that desi-born guys are better overall, why would your target group – desi girls in south asia – choose you? although i can think of some reasons (e.g. economics, geography), the reasons you espoused were more along the lines of cultural and intellectual – which means that that would put ABD guys out of the running as compared to their DBD counterparts.
that said, the generalizations are off-putting – everybody is different and it’s unfair to judge an entire group by a handful of individuals.
so then what of ABD guys – with all these accusations of hypocrisy, the same must apply to men
Men can be hypocritical no doubt, but what do you mean by ‘the same’? Certainly, I believe in equality across the board.
236 · HMF said
you’re certainly playing twister with yourself today, eh HMF? tongue-in-cheek..foot-in-mouth….hand-on…you know where that one is going..right?
if : Desi girls in South Asia > Indian-American/ABD girls
then are not : Desi guys in South Asia > Indian-American/ABD guys
not my opinion, but if TBRakaTBC holds out the former, then he must also accept the converse latter (solely because of his own cultural/intellectual reasons for forming the former opinion).
@229 – 1.5er
LMAO. Haha. First, I have a Canadian passport but am studying/working in the states. I’m 22 and have lived 8 years (school years) of my life in South Asia. Second, I ‘prefer’ to date non-American girls (mainly European and non-American Desi). My last three girlfriends were a French girl living in Spain, a Russian girl living in Spain (I met the French and Russian on a study abroad program in Spain) and a Desi girl living in South Asia (school friend turned girlfriend). The French and Desi girl come from wealthy families in France and South Asia and had no interest in moving/living here. The Russian girl wanted me because of my passport and that I lived in the states. She would always say, “I love the United States. I’ve always wanted to see the statue of liberty and Hollywood/LA.” I regret dating her….she wasn’t even a hottie by Russian standards. Oh well, you learn from your mistakes, eh?
it’s alright, hmf. i know that’s all you can count up to because your other hand is busy – what with such pleasurable activities as beating up on women.
since when is morbidity a personality trait? oh…i see….you’re dating the dearly departed now since earthly prospects are dim? paging dr. wong! we have a gravedigger on the prowl, and he seems to be exclusively into dead gold-diggers. golly!
(since i’m on a pedantic trip, i may as well say it. the only plausible word that could fit in that context is morbidness, which is a personality trait. but as bd would tell you, it might have been a freudian slip.)
you’re certainly playing twister with yourself today, eh HMF? tongue-in-cheek..foot-in-mouth….hand-on…you know where that one is going..right?
no.. where’s it going? there’s only been 424 references made to it.
Seriously after all this, whether it be hypocrisy or wanting to have your cake and eat it too, you still haven’t provided an answer to my underlying question and resolved the point.
Well, here is one of his reasons for forming the opinion:
And Indian-American women, they always say Desi guys have no game, are ugly (compared with black, white, latino and persian guys).
The converse of this is certainly not true, many desi guys actually do like desi women (don’t think they’re ugly, etc…) however they must contend with the image of “manliness” and “confidence” or what have you, that’s been so closely linked with white men.
And you might say, well don’t desi guys see white women as a pinnacle of beauty from the same imagery. Sure they do, but it stops at beauty, it doesn’t translate to them being “better women” or “better people” in an aggregate sense. In the inverse situation, it does.
It’s only when the women hit 27+ other considerations come into play (family, long term, and many of them have learned first hand how deep the racism can be buried)
what with such pleasurable activities as beating up on women.
Oh I see. so telling women the truth to their face is “beating up on them” Yeah. that’s not an exaggeration.
245 · HMF said
the truth? or “the truth?” where are the scare quotes when you actually need ’em?
HMF, I love you like a brotha!
Which hand do you use? right or left?
241 · TheBrownReasonakaTheBrownChamp said
dude, you were just a prick to them. indeed, could they even be blamed for loving you for your body?
You need a boyfriend. Poor baby…awww…