Especially if you are a smart, attractive, single desi woman. Seriously. This isn’t about desi women in particular but you’ll see how this information could be used for evil especially by desi parents. I know some of you forward posts to your parents but don’t do it with this one. You’ve been warned. NSFP=Not Safe for Parents.
Ok, now that I’ve cleared my conscience let’s get to the article at hand shall we? Slate.com recently published, The Eligible-Bachelor Paradox, which makes use of game theory to explain why the best women often end up single and alone if they wait “too long” to get married. We’ll save judgement for the end:
The shortage of appealing men is a century-plus-old commonplace of the society melodrama. The shortage–or–more exactly, the perception of a shortage–becomes evident as you hit your late 20s and more acute as you wander into the 30s. Some men explain their social fortune by believing they’ve become more attractive with age; many women prefer the far likelier explanation that male faults have become easier to overlook.
The problem of the eligible bachelor is one of the great riddles of social life. Shouldn’t there be about as many highly eligible and appealing men as there are attractive, eligible women?…Actually, no–and here’s why. Consider the classic version of the marriage proposal: A woman makes it known that she is open to a proposal, the man proposes, and the woman chooses to say yes or no. The structure of the proposal is not, “I choose you.” It is, “Will you choose me?” A woman chooses to receive the question and chooses again once the question is asked. [Link]
So what have we learned so far? Despite the fact that men usually propose, it is the woman that typically dictates if and when a marriage will occur. In a free and modern society (meaning no forced or pressured marriages) the real power rests with the woman. Let’s go on then:
You can think of this traditional concept of the search for marriage partners as a kind of an auction. In this auction, some women will be more confident of their prospects, others less so.In game-theory terms, you would call the first group “strong bidders” and the second “weak bidders.” Your first thought might be that the “strong bidders”–women who (whether because of looks, social ability, or any other reason) are conventionally deemed more of a catch–would consistently win this kind of auction.
But this is not true. In fact, game theory predicts, and empirical studies of auctions bear out, that auctions will often be won by “weak” bidders, who know that they can be outbid and so bid more aggressively, while the “strong” bidders will hold out for a really great deal. [Link]
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So the brilliant and attractive women hold out for someone worthy of their brilliance and attractiveness. Who could blame them? But, meanwhile, the “tier two” women claim their men with their womanly ways, thus removing them from the “game,” leaving the tier one women with fewer candidates that are perhaps, and I quote, “short, socially awkward, underemployed.” Now what about men like me…ahem…cough cough…tier one…cough…men that are still unmarried and ripe for conquest by those aging tier 1 women? I’m guessing we (not me in specific of course, just other tier 1s) might be defective in terms of our megalomania or commitment phobia. James Bond syndrome. So we are essentially out of the game as well (until maybe a much younger tier one or two woman clubs us over the head and aggressively claims us).
Where have all the most appealing men gone? Married young, most of them–and sometimes to women whose most salient characteristic was not their beauty, or passion, or intellect, but their decisiveness. [Link]
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The article concludes with a warning. If you want to win this “game” then follow the advice laid out here. Aggressively choose a mate while you are still young. However, you must first believe that the “prize” is worth winning. That is a much more difficult question. A mate isn’t life’s only prize, or even its most important one depending on your view of things.
He defines strong bidders here: “women who (whether because of looks, social ability, or any other reason) are conventionally deemed more of a catch”
I assume he put “strong” and “weak” in quotes not b/c its a self-given label, but b/c it is actually the “weak” bidders who won the action, so they’re not really weak.
Lol I’m so funny, intelligent and charismatic. I just realized that…
150 · TheBrownReasonakaTheBrownChamp said
Hey, good luck on the SATs. More power to you and your tribe, my tall, fair-skinned brother.
they always say Desi guys have no game, are ugly (compared with black, white, latino and persian guys). When I can get a ‘great’ Desi girl in South Asia or a beautiful European girl — why bother with Indian-American or White American girls? Simple as that.
Thats because they’ve been brainwashed over and over to think of “game” in white latino & black guy frameworks.
I assume he put “strong” and “weak” in quotes not b/c its a self-given label, but b/c it is actually the “weak” bidders who won the action, so they’re not really weak.
The word’s strong and weak aren’t defined in relation to their ability to win the auction, he defines “weak” as the ability or perceived ability to be outbid. It’s the so called “Tier 1” women who perceive they can never be outbid. And that perception is self-imposed.
154 · HMF said
nowhere does he say its self-imposed and i provided you with his own definition of strong bidders: “women who (whether because of looks, social ability, or any other reason) are conventionally deemed more of a catch.”
in other words the strong bidder is more attractive, but nonetheless looses the auction, so she is just “strong” but her perception of being attractive (tier one) is still correct.
@153 –
Thanks Manju uncle/aunty! I hope I do well on the GRE/LSAT/GMAT/MCAT. Youre so sweet 😉
nowhere does he say its self-imposed and i provided you with his own definition of strong bidders: “women who (whether because of looks, social ability, or any other reason) are conventionally deemed more of a catch.”
He doesn’t explicitly say it’s self-imposed, but that’s the only logical conclusion. Yes, they are deemed.. but who is instrumental in that ‘deeming’? They themselves!
in other words the strong bidder is more attractive, but nonetheless looses the auction, so she is just “strong” but her perception of being attractive (tier one) is still correct.
so being attractive doesn’t succeed in winning the auction? Isn’t that the definition of attractive? First you were saying the words “strong” and “weak” were misnomers (in the sense of winning the auction) and now you’re saying it’s correct? Maybe you can choose a point of view.
Either way, they themselves make the choice to accept or deny (as stated by him) and they do so because it’s their self-imposed perception that they can not be outbid.
well, that;s precisely what the article is about, that’s the paradox of game theory. as he says: “In fact, game theory predicts, and empirical studies of auctions bear out, that auctions will often be won by “weak” bidders.”
now whether or not being weak or strong is a self-imposed label is your hang-up, not his, which was rahul’s original point.
well, that;s precisely what the article is about, that’s the paradox of game theory. as he says: “In fact, game theory predicts, and empirical studies of auctions bear out, that auctions will often be won by “weak” bidders.”
Exactly! And it’s a self imposed label of ‘weakness’ thats generated by a perception of being outbid!
read again:
“who know that they can be outbid and so bid more aggressively” Yes he uses the words ‘weak’ and ‘strong’, but he ties them to the perception of being able or unable to be outbid. AND THAT’S SELF IMPOSED. Which is my point (or hangup, if you will)
and again his definition of strong
“while the “strong†bidders will hold out for a really great deal.”
so strong is in quotes because as you say, ironically they do not win the auctions, however it’s their perceptions that eventually they will win an auction.. and this is SELF IMPOSED! Why? because it’s the only logical conclusion from how he set up the initial problem:
The structure of the proposal is not, “I choose you.†It is, “Will you choose me?†A woman chooses to receive the question and chooses again once the question is asked.
157 · HMF said
If that what he meant he would’ve said “women who deem themselves.” instead he said, “conventionally deemed more of a catch” and since “conventionally” means in accordance with general agreement or conforming to accepted standards which necessitates a society, not just an individual, the only logical way to read his definition of a strong bidder is that society does in fact deem her attractive.
159 · HMF said
this is a bait and switch. your original assertion is that the women merley perceive themselves to be teir one. now your saying they percive they’ll win the auction, which is the authors point, not yours. these are two different things.
“conventionally deemed more of a catch” and since “conventionally” means in accordance with general agreement or conforming to accepted standards which necessitates a society
Yes I understand this, but you keep ignoring the point I’m making, that is, the decision that they may or may not be outbid at some juncture is self-made, it’s the only way to understand it given the way he set up the problem.
The gist of his article isn’t, ‘Hot women don’t succeed because they they’re too hot”, it’s “hot women don’t succeed because they [self imposed belief] believe if they leave a guy, no one else out there will take him”
your original assertion is that the women merley perceive themselves to be teir one. now your saying they percive they’ll win the auction,
No, Im saying they are the same things – in so far as he set up the problem with an auction model, and yes it is the author’s point – which is exactly what I stated. Why else would he put “strong” in quotes? The idea is the women are tier I, and they believe they will win an auction at some point (and their high status can afford them to “hold out for a better deal”)
In my experience, guys who complain about how women tend to be pathetic, gold-digging, delusional or shallow always do so because they are incapable of attracting or keeping the interest of the decent women.
Likewise in my experience, women who complain about the lack of suitable mates out there always do so because they are unable to cast off the hypocrisy of wanting to erase gender norms and traditional gender roles in professional & workplace, and in relationships where they are expected to perform certain duties, but maintain those same distinctions and traditional roles when they are the beneficiaries and are expected to be more passive & reactive.
140 · Nayagan said
did you have to give that away, man!!!
i am three episodes from the end of season 3.
🙁
Um… because you follow Battlestar Galactica?
/tongue in cheek (I’m a science fiction nerd myself).
/also: paging Puli, our resident science fiction nerd.
Do you know what the chadeech is?
This is so dumb. You have one life and you have to choose one person out of the 3 billion or 6 billion if your bisexual, to make every decision, make babies, raise them and be happy with your choice and this is to be done by your 25 years old.
Fuck that definition of normalcy. Here is a article that doesnt make me that mad.
http://www.boston.com/news/nation/articles/2007/05/12/marrying_smarter_later_leading_to_decline_in_us_divorce_rate/
I don’t know the spelling of that word, but it’s like an assistant to a Klingon fighter, like Picard was for Worf?
You are correct. although with wikipedia, google, and exhaustive websites… it’s become tougher and tougher to determine who’s a true sci fi nerd/geek/whatever and who’s just a fast searcher (which makes you a geek in another sphere)
Although, I’m not much of a ST buff.
138 · rajp53 said
some of you guys (you know who you are and we know who you are) are fortuitously being offered a solution to your problems on this very message board. how serendipitous is that?
In addition to Game Theory, the other body of knowledge that helps with the understanding of Man-Woman relationships is rooted in evolutionary psychology. Here are links to some good lectures on this topic.(Via MIT) The Battle of the Sexes: Love and Evolution Social Exchange: Romantic Economics
a solution to your problems on this very message board
All we need is a post to resolve having your cake and eating it too, and the favor can be duly returned.
I believe that it’s more to do with the 16-26 age group ABCD girls who want a white boy, but in their younger adult life, realize that there are some insurmountable obstacles (i.e. Indian girl’s hip expansion at 24 and the realization that Mr.WhiteBoy would rather be with Ms.WhiteGirl). I’ve dated many Indian girls who claimed, at the age of 27+, that they’ve never dated an Indian guy before. These girls always marry an Indian guy, from my experience. My opinion is that Indian girls settle with Indian boys (i.e. lowered their expectations).
13 · Amitabh said
kanya != virgin. It just means unmarried girl. Virginity is assumed, but not implied.
I’ve dated many Indian girls who claimed, at the age of 27+, that they’ve never dated an Indian guy before. These girls always marry an Indian guy, from my experience. My opinion is that Indian girls settle with Indian boys
Absolutely, it’s usually because Indian guys aren’t fully comfortable with the “dating” process, as their parents haven’t really engaged in it. And yes, I completely agree that man Indian women date outside the “race”, in particular white folks, and get a slap in the face when they see how deeply embedded their racism is. (Anyone see Vijai Nathan’s one woman show?)
But they can’t help it, they’re force fed images of white men being inherently ‘better’ men, and the naturally they’ll be more functional in the western dating approach.
Yes of COURSE it’s always the desi girl’s fault and never the desi guys who:
a) only date white girls or b) want a traditional type girl
To stereotype further, of course both a) and b) go together to form the typical scenario of a desi guy who dates lots of white girls ’cause they’re ‘easy’ and then settles with a traditional desi girl…forgoing of course those girls who don’t fit the traditional mold…
175 · alok said
ummm… i believe virginity is what makes a kanya so special and holy that she is needed for blessing ceremonies. also, the zodiac sign virgo for which the symbol is virgin is translated as kanya rashi in hindi. that is not incontrovertible evidence, but it is nevertheless suggestive. if i am wrong (very, very unusual, you know :)), what is the appropriate hindi word for a virgin?
also..i think ‘kunwari’ is also used to convey ‘virgin.’ but the exact meaning of ‘kunwari/kwanri’ is ‘unmarried,’ i think.
Are you two insane??? When trying to find an explanation, look for horses, not zebras. There are a lot of reasons why the rates of “out-dating” and “out-marriage” of desis/ABDs (male AND female) are high along specific sections of the population. This has little to do with a desi girls hip width or the “inherently better” race-identity of white men.
173 · HMF said
oh the cake paradox has long been resolved long ago. swing by my neck of the woods sometime, dear HMF, and i’ll show you how it’s done.
this conversations svings in wild directions.
…But they can’t help it, they’re force fed images of white men being inherently ‘better’ men, and the naturally they’ll be more functional in the western dating approach.
So Camille, are you denying this reality? I recall when an Indian woman and her at the time current white boyfriend were together mocking how Indian guys approach women… ie walk by, nervous stare, walk away.
What the Aunt Katie and her Hill station commander were neglecting, is that Indian men are raised by parents who not only:
a. have never engaged in a “dating” type process. b. devalue that process, ie place higher moral value on other means, arranged, etc..
This has a far reaching effect, and what makes the anecdote about desi women in their late 20s (especially those raised in predominantly white neighborhoods) never dating desi men, its a combination of presentable options and the image of a “perfect guy” lodged in a desi girls head.
scenario of a desi guy who dates lots of white girls ’cause they’re ‘easy’
This isn’t supported by the facts. White women are the largest demographic to date within race, and largest group to consider race in choosing a mate.
swing by my neck of the woods sometime, dear HMF, and i’ll show you how it’s done.
Not sure what this means. you’ll illustrate to me how best to manage hypocrisy?
I have no idea what sort of studs you meet, but nervous stares/being afraid to approach girls is not really unique to desi guys so I don’t know what that lady was on about…besides that, it’s just another anecdote. Where’s your proof, huh?
ooh. women AND white power structure blamed in one fell swoop. dunno about small town pennsylvanians, but i can definitely see some people whose paucity of ,er, “jobs”, has led to antipathy towards people who are not like them.
but nervous stares/being afraid to approach girls is not really unique to desi guys
relative difference lady. It was enough of a delta for these two to pick up on it. And yes, it is an anecdote, but based on the other reasons I provided, it doesn’t seem surprising.
definitely see some people whose paucity of ,er, “jobs”,
Thanks for proving my point.
that this antipathy is baseless?
it is a proven fact that indian women, on the other hand, are raised by known lotharios who swagger around with flashy unbuttoned shirts, sparkling gold chains, and shiny new ferraris. and lord knows indian women are told from day one to engage in the “dating” process.
At any rate, in my experience I’ve noticed that geeky white guys(my preferred sort, as opposed to investment bankers, doctors, lawyers etc) tend not to care about the colour or cultural background of who they’re dating…
Btw I just can’t get over the hypocrisy of certain men of blaming desi girls for dating mainly white or other non-desis when they don’t take into consideration the availability/behaviour of those guys!
and lord knows indian women are told from day one to engage in the “dating” process.
Your sarcastic response actually turns on itself. Sort of like when Stephen Colbert makes a claim while “in character” then realizes when it’s actually true.
Women (in a western dating process, whether they be Indian or not) are required to be passive. Their acclimation to that systematic process is quicker and easier. Which is precisely why parents put tigher clamps on their daughters, I’d imagine.
that this antipathy is baseless?
No, that it’s not antipathy. it’s an accurate depiction of the events.
when they don’t take into consideration the availability/behaviour of those guys!
of which guys?
\
that’s what those pennsylvanians say too.
don’t look now, but that’s a central thesis the article disputes – even if you agree with the conclusions of that article, that is. anyways, your giant misconceptions hurt nobody but yourself. so not worth wasting my time disabusing you of them.
poor baby. understands neither women nor stephen colbert. hopefully, your hand is not passive or acclimated to the western system.
183 · HMF said
hypocrisy, dear HMF, you’ve raised to an art form. a mere amateur like me dare not compete with an exalted olympian such as yourself. your ‘keeping it real’ manifesto cloaks your misogyny (orwell would have been proud), as effectively as trump’s lifelike hairpiece conceals his baldness. really, a credulous observer would think that a luxuriant mane of shrubby hair sprouted from the fertile soil of his scalp.
btw, the idiomatic meaning of having one’s cake and eating it too is not hypocrisy. rather, it illustrates the contradiction between the desire to consume and simultaneously, preserve the integrity of the object that you wish to consume. perhaps, vatsa, if you never desired cake in the first place you wouldn’t have the problem of vacillating between keeping it and eating it? in fact, desire is the root of all evil…….with that, we come to the end of today’s session. If you would like further guidance on affairs of the heart, please swipe your credit card. copies of my book and CD are also available on amazon.com. now, namaste! i salute the divine within you.
don’t look now, but that’s a central thesis the article disputes – even if you agree with the conclusions of that article
Look now. and read as well. both could be helpful, for you. The central thesis doesn’t dispute this at all. It says the women waits for a request (or even allows the request to be made), then provides the response. In my view, that’s passive, as far as the initial dating stage is concerned.
poor baby. understands neither women nor stephen colbert.
Women refuse to be understood. Of course I could just say sh*t against logical thought, to make them happy and follow suit with 49,999 guys out there. Maybe you could help me on that.
your hand is not passive or acclimated to the western system.
Ding Ding. and we have the obligatory masturbation joke. You’ve completed the lifecycle.
191 · dravidian lurker said
yeah, it’s the very aggressive signal that women give out (according to the article), that lets men they should act in the socially prescribed way. so it appears that they are being pursued while passive, while all the while men are waiting for a yay or nay. daisy in their quaking hands…she loves me, she loves me not, she loves the i-banker, she loves him not, she loves the WASP doctor, she loves him not…..
yeah, it’s the very aggressive signal that women give out
Is this supposed to be a joke? “Very aggressive”?? Perhaps they become more active in pushing things forward, but in the intial stages, they are completely completely passive. When you sit back and wait for a request. That’s passive.
and btw, if you click here: http://idioms.thefreedictionary.com/you+can't+have+your+cake+and+eat+it+too
you’ll see the idiomatic interpretation of having your cake and eating it too, is indeed “wanting two things at once”, and it’s assume they are two contradictory things. (believe it or not, it doesnt mean wanting to posess and consume a baked product simultaenously) That fits well with a definition of hypocrisy : http://www.thefreedictionary.com/hypocrisy.
as in professing equality between the sexes, and then supporting beliefs that undermine that very profession.
Meena,
Both of you guys are correct: ABCD guys are not without their flaws, and ABCD girls are not without their flaws, as well. I noticed that many ABCD guys can be playas, and when they dump the girl (either white or desi), he blames his parents/culture (i.e. “my parents want me to marry only a girl from my community.”).
However, I’ve seen many ABD girls, especially when they’re younger (pre-25/pre-26), they think that they’re too good for ABD boys. These girls will even go to mass, and there is nothing wrong with this. These weak-willed girls, sometimes, but not always, gets dumped! We always talk about how culture is important to us in a marriage, well culture is also important to whites. And so are good looks (read: “blonde hair/blue eyes/petite”), and American’s have their color consciousness woes like us Indians. Just watch Fox News.
So at first, the white boys thought that the Indian girl was “exotic”, but as the boy grows older, he realizes that this attraction was a fetish. He’s always going to prefer white to brown in the long run just like you and I prefer roti/rice over pasta in the long run, but in the short run, it doesn’t matter.
Then these girls get dumped. And then they all get hyper-Indian – i.e. learn to cook aloo roti, learn bollywood songs, RELIGION. Man, they really love their Rama after their white boy dRama.
Now, us Indian boys: sure, I noticed crazy things about us, as I had mentioned above. But also, have you noticed that many many times, when a Indian boy marries/dates a white girl, she has blonde hair? There could be a 10+ year age difference where the girl is older to the boy, and he dates her just because she has blonde hair. And yes, I think that white girls are more direct and less judgemental.
188 · Meena said
I hope some of you people here know that guys and girls don’t get along in this country. Every race/ethnicity has their issues , and I think South Asians are not in a bad state compared to some of the problems I hear in other groups. About a third of us marry white and its about equal for both males and females. We’re not like Asian dudes whose females are pretty much owned by every other race while the dudes are stuck married to their hand. Most of us marry some sort of brown.
I see a lot of geeky finance- job having Indian dudes with white chicks and about the same number of desi chicks with white dudes. Thats for the upwardly mobile crowd. In the few urban areas where desis are clustered, I see a lot of desi dudes with Spanish chicks and desi girls (on the low though) with Spanish dudes. My experience shows that desis don’t have much of a problem finding mates from other races. In a couple of years when it comes to marriage, I don’t know whats gonna happen. I actually think people will just marry whoever they want out of the frustration and waste of time trying to make parents happy.
Like nowadays, all these desi chicks who would have never gave me and my boys the time of day just a few years ago, got they little bio clocks ticking fast and the parents pressure down on them..now they tryin to come at us hard! I feel like that Mike Jones song
“Back then hoes didn’t want me, now I’m hot hoes all on me”
I feel bad for em and I would never consider marrying them. Becuase theyre essentially settling for some decent desi dude who they probably won’t be happy with when they have fantasies of whoever it is they want to get married to really.
I think in general marriage is on a decline and thats regardless of desis, Thats everybody in this country it feels like.
He’s always going to prefer white to brown in the long run just like you and I prefer roti/rice over pasta in the long run, but in the short run, it doesn’t matter.
Absolument.
Becuase theyre essentially settling for some decent desi dude who they probably won’t be happy with when they have fantasies of whoever it is they want to get married to really.
Double Absolument.
But speaking for myself, Desi girls, and only the BROWNS, can work for me. Nobody is funner, empathetic, ambitious, family-oriented, or pretty as the Browns.