184 thoughts on “Get up, Stand up TONIGHT in SF”

1. No country in the world has to do what we tell it to do. Certainly that’s the case with the big powers like China, Russia, Japan and India. As you can see every day in your morning paper, even a little country like Iraq can cause us more trouble than it’s worth….Don’t encourage Tibetans to die in some futile fantasy about independence. They are not independent. They are part of China, and part of China they will stay.

   Vyasa, your friend Charley Reese is asking people to shut up about about human rights issues in India as well. He could as well say:

   Don’t encourage child slaves* to die in some futile fantasy about independence. They are not independent. They are child slaves, and child slaves they will stay.

   • The child slaves you alluded to in your post #97.

2. portmanteau,

   its futile to expect an honest debate with prema/vyasa/the troll; it’s objective is not honest discussion but sophistry (and here I am being highly charitable). The constant aim to to reiterate “India, bad”, “all Indians, bad” (whatever “India/Indians” and “bad” might signify). I suspect personal issues (which one can sympathize with, but thats no reason to encourage it).

3. typo, I meant “the constant aim is to”

4. unfortunate that wackos like Vyasa have hijacked the discussion with their nonsensical mixture of racism sprinkled with a few selected facts…

   I actually enjoyed the interchange with Han and Jin, both made some arguments that I agree with – no question the western powers have their own strategic interest in mind here and will use this situation to their own advantage. But that does not mean that Tibetans should be silenced…

   I did have some discussions with several chinese colleagues and overall its a bit dismaying. The chinese-born folk have little knowledge of “others” in asian culture in general, with one exception they were astonished to learn that the indian govt can do little to silence the dalai lama. Or that Tibetans move freely throughout india and that no one has to get official sanction to demonstrate!! or that Tibetans use an indic script for their language..

   I was in SFO yesterday and saw quite large groups marching with the chinese flag. Good for them, I am glad they got to express their feelings, I just wish that Tibetans were given the same rights in Tibet.

5. Vyasa come off it your handle is simply a non de guerre. You are really a Chen, or a Hu.

   At least have the decency to come clean.

6. you obviously will not be intellectually honest with several people that have engaged with you despite your trolling

   Really? You call the Rahul-Manju comedy act an engagement in debate? And you really think desidude is being intellectually honest about India’s own human rights issues? Its too easy to dismiss someone as a troll when the issues they raise make you squirm.

   It is more than likely the same subset of desis is equally opposed to India’s human rights problems, given their moral convictions.

   More than likely? Really? On what do you base this assumption? Please try to be intellectually honest yourself.

   Do you deny that India is a far more egregious violator of human rights and dignity than China? Do you disagree that charity and compassion should begin at home and then expand outwards? Do you not see the shameless hypocrisy in pointing fingers at others while ignoring or even denying one’s own sins that are even worse?

   You’re assuming that Tibet is a part of China (exactly the question which is being debated

   Thats a fine example of either intellectual dishonesty or pathetic ignorance. Practically all the nations of the world including India and America recognize Tibet as part of China. Even the Dalai Lama is not claiming independence.

   the status of Tibet is an issue vital to the consideration of Indian (security and geopolitical) interests in South Asia

   India has recognized the status of Tibet as an integral part of China since 1952. Get with the program.

   While the US and India could stay out of the controversy, their citizens could endorse/denounce China as per their conscience. Decide what you’re against: diplomatic sanctions, citizen protests, or both?

   The point is not against protests. The point is highlighting the hypocrisy of certain protesters. Protesting against China while ignoring India’s far worse record is OK with you?

   Countries should have continued to invest and continue business as usual in South Africa (apartheid was an internal matter after all).

   Many if not most of the Americans who campaigned against South Africa’s racial discrimination against africans and indians had earned the moral right to do so for they had also campaigned against the institutionalized racial discrimination against non-whites in America, or identified with the successful Civil Rights movement. That cannot be said about the desi hypocrites who cry rivers over the sufferings of tibetans, chinese, palestinians etc but do not have a tear to shed for the vastly greater suffering of their own fellow desis. As that link from HRW I posted noted: “Why does India-the Indian government, the ruling elite, the business interests, the populace as a whole-tolerate this slavery in its midst? ……….It is not poverty which prevents India from investing more in its children, but rather the prejudices and values of those who create and implement policy in India………The government’s failure to enforce the Child Labour (Prohibition and Regulation) Act and the government’s failure to enforce the Bonded Labour System (Abolition) Act-not to mention the failure to enforce the several other laws protecting child workers-are twin manifestations of the same set ofphenomena. These phenomena include apathy, caste and class bias, obstruction of enforcement efforts, corruption, low prioritization of the problem, and disregard for the deep and widespread suffering of bonded child laborers…….From India’s top labor officials all the way down to the local level, where tehsildars (community leaders) use their influence to support the status quo, Human Rights Watch and other researchers have found a profound lack of concern for the plight of bonded and child laborers.”

7. Vyasa, maybe you will grant that a debate is not resolved unless you respond effectively to compelling arguments posed by the other side. From wikipedia:

   Tibet was once an independent kingdom, which later became a part of China. The government of the People’s Republic of China and the Government of Tibet in Exile, however, disagree over when Tibet became a part of China, and whether this incorporation into China is legitimate according to international law.

   The International Commission of Jurists concluded that Tibet in 1913-50 demonstrated the conditions of statehood as generally accepted under international law. In the opinion of the commission, the government of Tibet conducted its own domestic and foreign affairs free from any outside authority, and countries with whom Tibet had foreign relations are shown by official documents to have treated Tibet in practice as an independent State.

   And China’s view:

   The ROC government had indeed no effective control over Tibet from 1912 to 1951; however, in the opinion of the Chinese government, this condition does not represent Tibet’s complete independence as many other parts of China also enjoyed de facto independence when the Chinese nation was torn by warlordism, Japanese invasion, and civil war [20]. While at times, the Tibetans were fiercely independent-minded, at other times, Tibet indicated its willingness to accept subordinate status as part of China provided that Tibetan internal systems were left untouched and provided China relinquished control over a number of important ethnic Tibetan groups in Kham and Amdo

   On self-determination:

   While the earliest ROC constitutional documents already claim Tibet as part of China, Chinese political leaders also acknowledged the principle of self-determination. For example, at a party conference in 1924, Kuomintang leader Sun Yat-sen issued a statement calling for the right of self-determination of all Chinese ethnic groups: “The Kuomintang can state with solemnity that it recognizes the right of self-determination of all national minorities in China and it will organize a free and united Chinese republic.”In 1931, the CCP issued a constitution for the short-lived Chinese Soviet Republic which states that Tibetans and other ethnic minorities, “may either join the Union of Chinese Soviets or secede from it.” The possibility of complete secession was denied by Communist leader Mao Zedong in 1938: “They must have the right to self-determination and at the same time they should continue to unite with the Chinese people to form one nation”.

   You say:

   Many if not most of the Americans who campaigned against South Africa’s racial discrimination against africans and indians had earned the moral right to do so for they had also campaigned against the institutionalized racial discrimination against non-whites in America, or identified with the successful Civil Rights movement.

   Many were not alive during the Civil Rights era. However, your point allows that socially-conscious persons the world over, who’ve protested injustices in their own country have earned the right to protest Chinese treatment of Tibetan dissenters. Surely, some desis make the cut?

   It is also true that the ruling elite of Tibet has been implicated in several centuries of violence against its own citizens, so I’m not romanticizing Tibet. Yet, I don’t think this has disqualified any other country from (eg US history wrt Native peoples) self-determination in the 20th century. The people of Tibet deserve the right to self-determination. Personally (and I know my beliefs are not popular with many desis), I think there should have been some kind of referendum in Kashmir right after independence, and there ought to have been a state for the Palestinians as well. Of course, these problems have become so insoluble now that the possibility of fair referendums is a simplistic, and ultimately, infeasible political solution.

   Also, another (commonly held) view on the Dalai Lama claiming only autonomy, better understood in context here:

   So by asking for autonomy now, the Dalai Lama is giving up what all Tibetans really basically want, which is to be returned to being an independent country, a sovereign country, which they always were throughout their history. But he is giving that up pragmatically because of the difficulty of getting China to withdraw. After all, he is a non-violent leader and has never called for an insurrection against the Chinese, as in the case say of the Afghanis or of the Vietnamese or others against outside occupiers. He has pledged to try non-violently to engage in dialogue with the Chinese leaders all along. So in order to do that, he’s now had to give up the claim of independence, which has cost him some support within the Tibetan community who want independence, but he has said it is not practical and genuine autonomy means that internally Tibet has its own government and its own way of living, and it agrees to join the Chinese unions and allow the Chinese to control defense and foreign affairs

   That is it from me on this.

8. Is there any good way to do something meaningful and long-term on this? Just like companies run scared when they are caught out using sweatshops, is there a good way to shed light on which companies and products outsource their manufacturing to China? Is it even feasible to practically avoid using such goods, given their prevalence?

9. There’s an interesting (at least I think so) article from noted sports columnist Jason Whitlock that the protests make the Olympics more compelling than it might otherwise be. It’s linked. I don’t know if it was linked earlier since I got lost in the morass of conspiracy theories, america bashing and historical inaccuracy. If it was, my apologies.

   Other than the article, I’d like to contribute this thought (hopefully on thread): the fact that one can openly peacefully protest, attack, admonish or issue an opinion against a government’s policies without getting arrested, “lost” or disappeared is a test of a country’s soul. The U.S. and India (to a certain extent) both allow open criticism of their gov’ts. Both are not perfect countries, both have dark stains on their history. However, the fact that a light can be shined on these stains is the fundamental difference between these countries and PRC.

   The fact that the people of Tibet (or of Tibetan descent) find the only way they can gain international attention to their cause is to hijack the Olympic flame should have people asking not only whether this is a suitable tactic but why these people feel it is a suitable tactic (i.e. why is it that protests against the Chinese gov’t in Tibet are suppressed). I think a lot of people here should appreciate that one can use the internet, post an opinion on a blog on whatever they feel like (no matter how ill informed it may be) while there are places in the world that act is likely to get one arrested or worse.

   I will happily watch the Olympic Games and support the games for the pursuit of athletic excellence and the overall spirit of international comity. Further, I would support the right of any person to protest these games or use it as a platform for whatever human rights abuses they claim they have suffered from the host gov’t, especially where other avenues of dissent have been effectively shut down.

10. Endless hypocrisy:

    From wikipedia: Tibet was once an independent kingdom, which later became a part of China.

    Look buddy, anyway you look at it China has a far better claim to Tibet than India has to Arunachal Pradesh, Nagaland, Andaman Islands etc. Or the Queen of England has over Canada and Australia. Or the descendants of english colonists have over America. And so on. All the countries of the world recognize Tibet as part of China. The Dalai Lama is not seeking independence either. On the other hand Kashmir is recognized as disputed territory by the UN. India has held onto it by military force killing tens of thousands in the process. Why dont you organize protests against India’s occupation of Kashmir, Nagaland, A.P. etc?

    China is as likely to give up Tibet as the anglos are to give Australia back to the aborigines (who are racial cousins of desis) or give North America back to the native americans (who are racial cousins of tibetans).

    Also, another (commonly held) view on the Dalai Lama claiming only autonomy, better understood in context here

    Your “context” is coming from a second hand source (an american) who basically insinuates that the Dalai Lama is lying when he says that he does not want independence. Thats pathetic.

    your point allows that socially-conscious persons the world over, who’ve protested injustices in their own country have *earned* the right to protest Chinese treatment of Tibetan dissenters. Surely, some desis make the cut

    Where are all the protest marches organized by “socially-conscious” desis against India’s crimes against humanity? As HRW noted: “Why does India-the Indian government, the ruling elite, the business interests, the populace as a whole-tolerate this slavery in its midst?…….. Human Rights Watch and other researchers have found a profound lack of concern for the plight of bonded and child laborers.”

11. JJ, Nicely said.

12. 110 · Vyasa said

    Dalai Lama is lying when he says that he does not want independence.

    Just a point of clarification: what is being said is that some Tibetans feel that autonomy is not enough, and their political goal is independence. The Dalai Lama, however, has indicated that he desires autonomy for Tibet. Are you saying that American scholars or scholars of any other nationality other than Chinese/Tibet are incapable of reliable scholarship about this issue? And, again, it should seem obvious from my post that I am sympathetic to people who reside in territories subsumed by larger political entities and feel isolated or discriminated against. But I do not endorse violence by factions among such communities, although, it is true that such factions do feel that violence is the only way to get their voice heard. Again, I advise you not to assume that people do not do anything in India against human rights abuses. The adivasi displacement issue has been framed as such by many in India, and you might have heard about the Narmada Bachao Andolan. You might have also heard about how a significant number schoolchildren in India over the past many years boycott Diwali crackers made in Sivakasi by child laborers. Many DBD mutineers, I suspect, are of the age that might have also done this as kids.

13. I will happily watch the Olympic Games

    I will totally boycott these and all future Olympic Games as long as they keep that annoying Bob Costas guy on, and push those soft-focus puff pieces of athletes overcoming adversity to achieve their childhood dream of representing their country in dressage.

14. 110 · Vyasa said

    Look buddy, anyway you look at it China has a far better claim to Tibet than India has to Arunachal Pradesh, Nagaland, Andaman Islands etc. Or the Queen of England has over Canada and Australia. Or the descendants of english colonists have over America. And so on.

    Only if you use some ill-defined definition of the legitimacy of a claim to some territory, based on, again, ill-defined concepts of historial sovereignty and ethnic distributions. In the real world, meanwhile, legitimacy is determined by the consent of the people who actually live on the land in question. That Tibet might have once been a suzereign of some Chinese dynasty that disappeared hundreds of years ago is neither here nor there. Those people are all dead. This is why all the hubbub about independence vs. autonomy is a distraction: the issue is not the political status of Tibet per se, but the fact that the self-determination of the Tibetan people is not being respected. No amount of history or legitimization by third parties can override the essential right of the Tibetan nation to decide its own course. It is not for China (the state or the nation) to unilaterally decide which other nations will be included in the Chinese state.

    Also, this line of argument (i.e., implying that other countries have problems of their own) is not very effective: in the first place, the type of person who is going to protest for Tibet probably also thinks that the colonization of the New World was an evil, illegitimate affair and, in the second place, people from those countries are quite used to receiving this sort of criticism, and so it’s not going to slow them down. If anything, they’re going to think “yeah, and we get criticized for wiping out the natives all the time, so why should China get a pass?”

    110 · Vyasa said

    All the countries of the world recognize Tibet as part of China.

    Recognizing that China controls Tibet is not the same as viewing said control as legitimate. Moreover, this is purely a question of the boundaries of the various states in question; the right to self-determination is inherent in the Tibetan nation, whether they possess their own independent state or not, and so the question of which states accept which boundaries of which other states has no bearing on it. Nations are self-identified units, and nothing China or anyone else (besides Tibetans) do can affect their status or rights as a nation.

    110 · Vyasa said

    Why dont you organize protests against India’s occupation of Kashmir, Nagaland, A.P. etc?

    Presumably because India is not hosting the Olympics, and so not receiving de-facto international legitimization of any controversial claims. The whole rationale for awarding the games to China was that it would put them in the spotlight and so make them more responsive to concerns about human rights and political freedoms. Naturally, people are going to use this rare opportunity to make as much impact as they can. That so many Chinese expected they could hold a “coming out” party and be the center of international attention without receiving criticism for controversial policies strikes me as pretty naive.

    110 · Vyasa said

    China is as likely to give up Tibet as the anglos are to give Australia back to the aborigines (who are racial cousins of desis) or give North America back to the native americans (who are racial cousins of tibetans).

    Of course, you realize that this comparison validates the charge that China is committing cultural genocide in Tibet, right?

    I think we’re seeing a sea-change in the way China is perceived, and how it manages its image in the world. Formerly, it was sufficient for China to keep a low-ish profile, and fall back on post-colonialist rhetoric whenever any contentious issues came up. But now China draws a lot more attention, and the power dynamics and passage of history have greatly reduced their ability to change the subject to Western Imperialism. I suggest that China get accustomed to receiving criticism, and develop methods for responding that go beyond indignation and insistence that critics are ignorant and/or agents of some evil anti-China cabal. If you want to be a superpower, this is the kind of stuff that comes with the territory.

15. 113 · Rahul said

    overcoming adversity to achieve their childhood dream of representing their country in dressage.

    Speaking of dressage…what…you don’t like the women’s beach volleyball matches or any of the water events?? I find these events riveting for ummmmm… the athletic performances.

    For Rahul, that line should have read: I will happily watch the Olympics with the sound muted.

    The Olympics does do us the favor of preventing Bob from announcing any baseball games although I do hear the IPL is looking for announcers and Bob is practicing saying Tendulkar and Ganguly…..

16. That so many Chinese expected they could hold a “coming out” party and be the center of international attention without receiving criticism for controversial policies strikes me as pretty naive.

    Yep, it must feel so humiliating to have to sneak around under cover of darkness and subterfuge much like the neighborhood pedophile (thanks to Ultrabrown for that analogy!) But it would be good to hit them where it hurts most – economically.

17. 110 · Vyasa said

    Look buddy, anyway you look at it China has a far better claim to Tibet than India has to Arunachal Pradesh, Nagaland, Andaman Islands etc. Or the Queen of England has over Canada and Australia. Or the descendants of english colonists have over America. And so on. All the countries of the world recognize Tibet as part of China. The Dalai Lama is not seeking independence either. On the other hand Kashmir is recognized as disputed territory by the UN. India has held onto it by military force killing tens of thousands in the process. Why dont you organize protests against India’s occupation of Kashmir, Nagaland, A.P. etc?

    This is filled with all manner of poor reasoning. Since all of that has already been pointed out, I will say that I hope your India-critical activism extends beyond derailing potentially productive SM discussions. I would also hope you protest for Tibetan autonomy with vigor, so as not to be a hypocrite yourself.

18. I don’t get the logic behind arguments like “oh yea, but your country does it too”

    Just because Americans have treated natives badly, does the current generation not have a right to point a finger at the Chinese government? Or I get retorts from Chinese people, like “have you been to Tibet? no? then you dont know the truth.” Well, Whoop fucking do! I’d bet 99% of the Chinese Americans here haven’t been to Tibet themselves.

    Most people will defend their country but will admit that it is not perfect. But not the Chinese. Come what may, their country and government is the prettiest perfectest thing to ever happen to humanity.

19. or any of the water events??

    I am sure you avidly read FHM for its expose on Olympic athletes?

20. All the countries of the world recognize Tibet as part of China.

    Oh sure, and it shows. Look at all the recognition and support you get in England, France, Germany, USA, and others. The only reason they “tolerate” China is because of its economic size and cheap, sub-standard products.

    Well, pretty soon, the population will grow old and be halved. Manufacturing will move to Taiwan, Korea, Philipines and other smaller countries with growing economies and better manufacturing standards.

    Then you’re going to be in a tough spot with no friends to call your own. I bet the CIA is already compiling a list of all the American Chinese people who were mobilized by the Chinese consulate yesterday, because if war should break out between the US and China, these (pseudo) American-Chinese traitors need to be handled immediately.

21. I am sure you avidly read FHM for its expose on Olympic athletes?

    Unfortunately, I missed those issues. The revelations within are eye-opening but overall the articles lacked depth and were a bit plastic. It was certainly not worthy of a pulitzer despite the attempt to put beauty in a frame. The pictures are instructive in that they do show evidence of either an innate ability to tan evenly or the use of certain spray on products.

    Perhaps China should use this as a guide for selling the Olympics, a tag line could be: “Ignore the protests, the arrests, the silencing of dissent and come watch the hot athletes”. 🙂 That could work.

22. Note the similarities between Microsft & China:

    • Both don’t open up/share their internal workings
    • Are monopolistic/monoparty-stic
    • Claim to be perfect despite their poor record
    • Everybody disses them ..
    • .. But still ends up buying their toys

23. The Chinese-American people should watch this PBS documentary

    http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/tankman/view/

    I respect that man who stood in front of tanks in Tiananmen square and did not allow them to enter his city. I respect all the students who stood up and protested there, and they were all Chinese people.

    How can you forget that and allow your government to oppress your own countrymen? If Hong Kong and Macau can be autonomous and yet be part of “One China” dream, then why not Tibet ?

24. the fact that one can openly peacefully protest, attack, admonish or issue an opinion against a government’s policies without getting arrested, “lost” or disappeared is a test of a country’s soul

    What do you think 60 years of this “test” has revealed about India’s “soul”? Despite blindly imitating its erstwhile colonial masters’ institutions of free speech, democracy, and even their english language (things indians never tire of boasting about and rubbing on chinese and other faces) India remains a deeply corrupt, caste-ridden, callous society that in the words of Human Rights Watch has a “profound lack of concern” for such social evils as child slavery and chronic hunger that any moral, civilized society would deem intolerable.

    Its really inexplicable how so many indians are actually proud of India’s achievements!

25. In the real world, meanwhile, legitimacy is determined by the consent of the people who actually live on the land in question.

    So why has India refused to hold a plebiscite in the disputed territory of Kashmir? Why did it brutally crush the khalistani independence movement? Why is it illegitimately holding on to the northeastern states over the objections of “the people who actually live on the land”? Just come clean and admit that your finger-pointing is hypocritical.

26. that in the words of Human Rights Watch

    Who is “Human Rights Watch” ? (an organisation I’d never heard of before, but maybe thats just my ignorance)

    Here’s the “what they say” page from their own site. They are good at pissing people off all over the world. http://hrw.org/about/what_they_say.html

    things I noted : They’re a 233 people organization. Huge! They’re no HRC or Amnesty International.

    They groups “China and Tibet” together in their country listing. What stance is that? Was there not enough space under “T” for Tibet ? Or they take the opposite stance (of Tibet being part of China), well then why not name all its other provinces in the list too ? Fence sitting.

    Sorry, show me some credible data and I’ll read it. Not this junk.

27. 124 · Vyasa said

    What do you think 60 years of this “test” has revealed about India’s “soul”? Despite blindly imitating its erstwhile colonial masters’ institutions of free speech, democracy, and even their english language (things indians never tire of boasting about and rubbing on chinese and other faces) India remains a deeply corrupt, caste-ridden, callous society that in the words of Human Rights Watch has a “profound lack of concern” for such social evils as child slavery and chronic hunger that any moral, civilized society would deem intolerable.

    First, I am not going to be the other hand that claps to your drumbeat so stir up the pot elsewhere using someone else. Second, in the faint chance that you may actually be sincere in your beliefs, no one ever said that India was without ill. In fact my earlier post said as much, perhaps that speed reading course caused you to miss a word or two like “Both are not perfect countries, both have dark stains on their history“.

    Third, since I don’t believe you are sincere, I won’t resist a parting shot. Well done, you have managed to turn a thread regarding Tibet and their protest against China into a forum on how much India and to a lesser degree, Indians suck. Mission accomplished. India is a rotten country, in fact there’s no place on earth that isn’t rotten to the core including America, and we’re all hypocrites for not pointing that out. Kudos to you. You should go to the hipster olympics and proclaim yourself victor.

    But here’s one thing for you to consider while you are placing the laurels on your own head, none of what you have said changes that China still occupies a special floor in the superpower crimes building for what it’s done to it’s own people, for what has happened in Tibet and the use of their own jackboot to crush dissent. Any attempt to deny that is hypocritical.

    Oh wait, of course, nothing of the sort ever happens in China, that shangri-la, that little piece of heaven on earth. Any news regarding Chinese oppression is just a fiction of the imperialist propaganda machine created by the colonial masters and their intelligence agencies. Us sheep are just too stupid and fail to realize it. Got it.

    Could it be perhaps, just perhaps, there may be a grain of truth in the protests made by those in opposition to the Chinese. Oh wait, I’m letting my wool get pulled over my eyes, Baaaa Baaaa out.

28. Does anyone else see similarities of the torch run with Ashwamedha Yagya ?

    Not going too well, is it?

29. Despite blindly imitating its erstwhile colonial masters’ institutions of free speech, democracy

    WOW. What sort of government are you recommending for India, then? Oh, right, one like China probably. You do realize that Communism was also invented in the West…

    You ignore everything substantive people respond with, put up straw-man arguments and back up what you say with “facts” which are simply incorrect, or propaganda. It looks like you basically distrust the West, put China up as an antidote, and perceive attacks on China as being motivated by white racism. Everything else you say follows from this motivation, history, logic and ethics be damned.

    There are legitimate points to be made about how pro-Tibetan activism can express and feed white racism, and Western political agendas, but you are in fact not making them. You’re just caught up in saying whatever junk you have to in order to feel like you’re “winning.” If you would step back you would see how little sense you are making.

30. That Tibet might have once been a suzer[ain] of some Chinese dynasty that disappeared hundreds of years ago is neither here nor there

    Recognizing that China controls Tibet is not the same as viewing said control as legitimate. Moreover, this is purely a question of the boundaries of the various states in question; the right to self-determination is inherent in the Tibetan nation, whether they possess their own independent state or not, and so the question of which states accept which boundaries of which other states has no bearing on it.

    redr @114, many excellent points, and thanks for doing what I would have I like to do, if I had the energy 🙂

31. Jangli said..

    Any news regarding Chinese oppression is just a fiction of the imperialist propaganda machine created by the colonial masters and their intelligence agencies. Us sheep are just too stupid and fail to realize it. Got it.

    a small anecdote – my grad school chinese classmate’s family who live back in China (I think in Shanghai) were shocked to hear that there was such a thing as the SARS epidemic going on in China. Oh.. those imbeciles at CNN paint such a false and misleading picture of the open society that is the PRC! After all, FOX NEWS gets great ratings making random shit up. But to go to such lengths to tarnish the good name of such a model member of the world community as China. Oppressive countries like India and the US should learn more from China.

32. Vyasa

    India and indians are stinking hypocrites, caste fascists, violent darkies, their culture is a cheap copy of their western masters, stinky cricket-playing slaves with bad breath and awful shitty cuisine. I fully accept all of this – your wisdom has given us insight into all aspects of india and indians.

    AND YET the tibetans deserve to be heard. And yet the chinese govt has oppressed tibetan culture, it does not give Tibet the cultural and religous autonomy it deservers. This is why the tibetans protest all over the world and this is why I support their non-violent protest methods.

    Are you able to understand this? Or does your brain only function on special logic that comes from the communist party HQ in Beijing??

33. 125 · Vyasa said

    So why has India refused to hold a plebiscite in the disputed territory of Kashmir? Why did it brutally crush the khalistani independence movement? Why is it illegitimately holding on to the northeastern states over the objections of “the people who actually live on the land”?

    Presumably because it has other concerns than legitimacy, just like China in Tibet. Arguing that India deserves criticism too does not add up to an argument that criticism of China is wrong or undeserved. You’re just banking on people being as reactively pro-India as the various China apologists are reactively pro-China, and so hoping to derail the conversatation. But, guess what? Criticism of India’s Kashmir and other policies doesn’t bother me in the least, nor America’s history of Manifest Destiny. I have complained about them at length in the past, although not on SM. And if India ever gets awarded the Olympics and gets protested over it, I’ll stand up for those protestors as well. But you should be aware that Chinese are, apparently, fairly unique in their overreactions to criticism. Pretty much everyone else is used to hearing this kind of stuff said about their country all the time, so don’t expect them to fly off the handle.

    125 · Vyasa said

    Just come clean and admit that your finger-pointing is hypocritical.

    For it to be hypocritical, I’d have to be applying a different standard to India or some other polity. Please point to a single instance of me doing so. And please get it through your head that calling me a hypocrite, even if it were true, is effectively an admission that you don’t have a valid counterargument. And, unfortunately for you, people here are mature enough that you’re not going to be able to control the discourse by starting a flame-war once you run out of relevant comments.

34. 118 · suede said

    Or I get retorts from Chinese people, like “have you been to Tibet? no? then you dont know the truth.”Well, Whoop fucking do! I’d bet 99% of the Chinese Americans here haven’t been to Tibet themselves.

    No need to go across any oceans: I’m quite sure that 99% of Chinese in China haven’t been to Tibet. But, don’t worry, they hear all about it in the CCP-controlled press, which is so much more objective than all other media (which we all know are simply tools of a secret Imperialist cabal bent on humiliating China).

35. What gives Americans (Hiroshima, Vietnam, Iraq – hundreds of thousands of innocents killed) or for that matter Indians (Kashmir, Gujarat) the right to throw stones at China? To criticize a foreign policy in a political forum is one thing, to snatch an Olympic torch with already sullied hands is another. I wonder if you would have maintained the same self-righteous tone if this was the Atlanta Olympics.

36. To criticize a foreign policy in a political forum is one thing, to snatch an Olympic torch with already sullied hands is another.

    For you and all those talking about the purity of the Olympic torch, this article details the political origin of the Olympic torch – invented and used by the Nazis to run through territories they were ambitious to occupy.

    Aryan ideals, not ancient Greece, were the inspiration behind flame tradition

    2, many of the people on this thread have already pointed out that they do not support America’s invasion of Iraq, and some even have supported plebiscite in Kashmir, and I don’t think anyone agrees with what happened in Gujarat. By your logic no one should protest unethical or unlawful behavior since everyone is implicated in some way. So we should all keep quiet about everything.

    Hey, for that matter, why are you telling us to keep quiet about Tibet when you are not keeping quiet about the US and India?

37. no one ever said that India was without ill. In fact my earlier post said as much, perhaps that speed reading course caused you to miss a word or two like “Both are not perfect countries, both have dark stains on their history”.

    Forget about history, India has the darkest stain of all today: child slavery, massive child hunger, untouchability, bonded labor, widespread beggary and homelessness, widow shunning, bride burning, child marriage, child prostitution, hereditary casteism etc etc…….all tolerated without shame or conscience. Shouldnt you be protesting that instead of pointing fingers at countries that treat their citizens far better than India does?

    I don’t believe you are sincere

    Actually its your insincerity that is patent. If you sincerely were offended by violations of human rights you would be shouting “free the child slaves of India” and “feed your children India” in front of the Indian Embassy instead of posing like a wannabe white latte liberal wearing a “free Tibet” tshirt, with hungry eyes darting around looking for acceptance in that crowd.

    none of what you have said changes that China still occupies a special floor in the superpower crimes building for what it’s done to it’s own

    India may not be a superpower but no other major nation can come close to matching what India has done to its citizens. Millions of children die every year from malnutrition related causes. And no one cares. First time visitors to India are invariably shocked and horrified by the living conditions there, even when they come from other third world countries. Yet the democratic politicians and the “free press” of India keep gloating about how India is an “incredible” ” shining” “IT superpower” that the world is envious of! Are you so clueless and deluded that you cannot see how obscene it is for Indians of all people to be lecturing others about human values?

38. 135 · etlamatey said

    What gives Americans (Hiroshima, Vietnam, Iraq – hundreds of thousands of innocents killed) or for that matter Indians (Kashmir, Gujarat) the right to throw stones at China? To criticize a foreign policy in a political forum is one thing, to snatch an Olympic torch with already sullied hands is another. I wonder if you would have maintained the same self-righteous tone if this was the Atlanta Olympics.

    individual consciences are different from national policies. it doesn’t do to conflate the two. the american state/ federal government(s) responsible for protecting the flame are assiduously doing so. also, individual americans and indians have all vigorously opposed the stands of their governments on the events/issues you mention. it’s not clear whether their hands are ‘sullied,’ or they are necessarily implicated in the ethical failures of their government (especially if they have not voted for those in power, and have consistently opposed their policies).

    besides, the right to free speech allows anyone to say what they like, as long as they don’t violate other laws or harm anyone in the process. so, even if you accuse the pro-tibetan protesters of being hypocritical, ignorant, misguided, whatever — they are acting well-within the domain of their rights. i’m pretty certain if the american olympics happened in the civil rights era, we would see protests by americans against the institutional structure as well. ditto for the vietnam war — where people continued to carry out anti-gov’t activities to the detriment of their personal interests.

39. India and indians are stinking hypocrites, caste fascists, violent darkies, their culture is a cheap copy of their western masters

    Thats a lie. Its not the indian culture per se, but institutions like its political, judicial, educational, media systems etc that are blind imitations of their erstwhile western masters. Those institutions have worked well in the West and in East Asia but they have failed in India even after 6 decades of independence. What do you blame for this failure if not indian culture?

40. if India ever gets awarded the Olympics and gets protested over it, I’ll stand up for those protestors as well.

    A convenient cop out since India is unlikely to be awarded the Olympics in your lifetime. Why do you need an Olympics to protest India’s massive human rights violations anyway?

    please get it through your head that calling me a hypocrite, even if it were true, is effectively an admission that you don’t have a valid counterargument

    Actually, the shameless hypocrisy of indians lecturing others on human rights is effectively my argument. Since you all are macaulayite anglophiles you must know the english saying: “people in glass houses should not throw stones”…..

41. I’m quite sure that 99% of Chinese in China haven’t been to Tibet. But, don’t worry, they hear all about it in the CCP-controlled press, which is so much more objective than all other media (which we all know are simply tools of a secret Imperialist cabal bent on humiliating China)

    So why are the millions of chinese, including hundreds of thousands of students from China, living in the West and exposed to all its media, still so overwhelmingly supportive of its government? Could it be because they can see how well the chinese government has performed since Deng Xiaoping basically abandoned communist orthodoxy?

    If anything you should have a problem with the Indian press which has brainwashed indians into thinking that India is doing far better than it actually is.

42. Actually its your insincerity that is patent. If you sincerely were offended by violations of human rights you would be shouting “free the child slaves of India” and “feed your children India” in front of the Indian Embassy instead of posing like a wannabe white latte liberal wearing a “free Tibet” tshirt, with hungry eyes darting around looking for acceptance in that crowd.

    That white latte liberal line is pretty good. Props to you on that one. I think I’ll use it next time. I’m more of a Dunkin Donuts coffee man (good coffee and have to support the people) though I have been known to splurge on occasion for a Starbucks, tall skinny vanilla latte (usually when a friend or a date deems Starbucks necessary otherwise I wouldn’t pay for Star-yucks). Skinny because as I get older its harder to keep the weight down and I sooo want to be able to tan evenly this beach season. (The colonial masters have me imitating them at every turn, dang it!). Not to mention I want to be able to wear one of my cuban guayabera shirts this summer without a gut. See, I support one communist regime. Actually, I think those shirts are made by chinese and indian child labor. Oh well.

    BTW, not so much of a liberal (though, I’m not sure of your definition), I’m more of a warmonger as I’m leaning toward supporting Mccain this election season. A funny thing happens to me when I read your posts, I am usually very critical of India and Indian policies but since you opened your mouth (started posting) to derail any discussion of the protests, I feel more solidarity towards the Motherland. Thanks for that. Keep posting, at this rate, you will have us all saying “God Bless America” and “Jai Hind”. One love.

43. 139 · Vyasa said

    Thats a lie. Its not the indian culture per se, but institutions like its political, judicial, educational, media systems etc that are blind imitations of their erstwhile western masters. Those institutions have worked well in the West and in East Asia but they have failed in India even after 6 decades of independence. What do you blame for this failure if not indian culture?

    Looks like even the foundation of your argument is a hotbed of confusion. Do you have any purpose but to constantly call Indians hypocrites, or are you some kind of real activist yourself?

44. Vyasa/prema has a long history on the mutiny (just do a search); he/she/it is highly predictable. In my early days I too tried to engage her honestly (and being ardently non-nationalistic, even agreed with it about certain things) , but honesty does not define a troll. just ask razib or any of the long-time contributors…

45. Looks like even the foundation of your argument is a hotbed of confusion

    Clearly you have the same reading comprehension problem as al-beruni to whom I was responding. What part confused you? The part where I corrected him by pointing out that it wasnt indian culture per se that i had said was aped from the british but indian governmental institutions? Or the part where i questioned whether it was the indian culture that accounts for the failures of those aped institutions in India?

    Do you have any purpose but to constantly call Indians hypocrites

    Are you saying that exposing the hypocrisy of a certain worldview is purposeless? I am not the only one who believes otherwise:

    http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/opinions/2947777.cms

    “Violent protests in Tibet and a subsequent crackdown by the Beijing government have created a worldwide outpouring of sympathy for the Tibetan cause.

    In India, where the Dalai Lama lives in exile, politicians, celebrities, and common citizens have sided with the underdogs. But those who support the idea of an independent Tibet are misguided, and Indians who do so are hypocritical to boot.

    Here’s why. The land claimed by Tibet’s government-in-exile is far larger than the territory ruled by the Dalai Lama before he fled to India in 1959. Greater Tibet covers an incredible 25 percent of the entire People’s Republic of China (PRC). There is no legal or historical basis whatsoever for this claim. Moreover, were such a nation to split from China, it would feel incomplete without Arunachal Pradesh, often referred to as Southern Tibet.

    The case for an independent state composed of the smaller Tibet Autonomous Region is also questionable. For centuries, theocratic rulers of the Roof of the World accepted the land was part of the Chinese empire. This elite declared independence during a period of instability in the early twentieth century, but China never accepted it.

    It’s true the fifties and sixties were dreadful for the region, but we must bear in mind that the Great Leap Forward and Cultural Revolution were disastrous for China as a whole.

    Recent years have witnessed an increased tolerance of traditional culture by Chinese authorities, alongside a rise in Tibetans’ standard of living. Thus far, the liberalisation has stopped short of negotiations with the Dalai Lama, which is unfortunate, for he is one of the great moral figures of our time and has signalled he would accept genuine autonomy instead of the complete independence he had previously sought.

    Tibet’s best hope lies in the ruling party developing a respect for rights and freedoms throughout the PRC, and that’s what world leaders ought to try and influence. However, that’s not the way most Indians appear to see the matter.

    The former foreign minister Yashwant Sinha argued we should intervene to secure Tibet’s freedom: “We want good relations with China. I am not saying let’s have war with China. But if we reach a point of conflict over Tibet, we should be prepared for that eventuality.”

    This is mind-bogglingly stupid. Indian forces have less chance of driving the People’s Liberation Army from Lhasa than Harbhajan Singh has of scoring hundreds in each of his next fifty innings. Sinha didn’t stop there. “We, along with the brave Tibetan activists, will not relent till we get justice from China”, he thundered.

    “If need be, I am prepared to march to Lhasa in support of this movement.” George Fernandes, former defence minister, also advocated Tibetan independence, repudiating the policy of his prime minister, Atal Behari Vajpayee.

    The reason such sentiments are not just ill-informed but hypocritical is that we have our own secessionist movements to deal with, and there is no public or political pressure to resolve those. The most prominent, the problem of Jammu and Kashmir is the elephant in the room which Indians debating Tibet are doing their darndest to ignore. The two issues make for an interesting comparison. No nation regards Tibet as disputed territory, while every country, India included, places J&K in that category. (These days we are not allowed to refer to it as ‘disputed’, but the Simla Agreement as well as our commitment to the United Nations makes clear it is).

    Though we accuse Pakistan of occupying a chunk of our turf, we do nothing about that, apart from marking every imported atlas with a stamp saying the borders of India as depicted are inaccurate.

    If Pakistan brings up Kashmir at multilateral forums, we complain it is contravening the Simla Agreement. But when it presses for bilateral talks, as recommended by that Agreement, we insist J&K is an internal matter. We parrot the slogan about the valley being an integral part of India, in the face of the fact that all nation-states are provisional entities.

46. but honesty does not define a troll

    Thats why you have been correctly accused of being a troll yourself. All you do is sigh a lot, whine a lot, try to get posters banned a lot. And when you do try to write a meaningful post it is always a convoluted jumble designed to impress with unnecessary pseudo-academic verbiage that instead of advancing debate gets mocked for its pretentious confusion.

    I am not here to make friends but to hammer home points that I honestly believe in, as clearly and forcefully as I can. Obviously thats an alien concept to the likes of you. If you can find flaws in my reasoning or errors in the facts I present then correct me and I will be thankful. Otherwise quit your endless whining and STFU, and get a frickin’ life already.

47. Vyasa, if you’re gonna go out… go out with your guns blazing.

    When I drew the connection Kashmir, I was told by some moron that this was nothing similar since there’s a historical agreement placing Kashmir in India. Really? Why don’t we hold a referendum and see?

    I don’t agree with everything you say (I do believe that India has a role to play as a net-giver of aid).

    C’mon people. I ask people to think about how we define the South Asian diaspora and someone attacks me with “why should you get consideration when you’re not a taxpayer in India” (to which I must retort: neither are your families in India 😉 Really? That’s the kind of thinking that’s going to see India rise to take it’s place amongst poweful nations in the next thirty years?

    Does anyone out there think? Chinese nationalists claim a relationship with Tibet going back a thousand years.

    My ancestors left India under difficult circumstances 130 years ago and you’re only interested in my fate/well-being if I’m a taxpayer in India?

48. 143 · NYC Akshay said

    Looks like even the foundation of your argument is a hotbed of confusion. Do you have any purpose but to constantly call Indians hypocrites, or are you some kind of real activist yourself?

    I think what you’re looking for is, “syphilitic twisted shadow of a Naipaulean account of India that will not die.”

49. My ancestors left India under difficult circumstances 130 years ago and you’re only interested in my fate/well-being if I’m a taxpayer in India?

    Not me…I’m interested in the fate and well-being of the diaspora, including those who left in the 19th century…but once they stop considering themselves ethnically or culturally Indian, my interest lessens. There are some in the younger generations who (perhaps rightly) feel they are Trinidadian and not Indian, or South African and not Indian…in that case it’s hard to feel concern for them on the basis of their being Indian. One can still care on humanitarian grounds, or even on the grounds that one considers them desis even if they do not self-identify that way.

    Being a taxpayer has nothing to do with it. And I don’t expect any political loyalty to India, since politically I don’t consider myself Indian at all. I’m Indian ethnically and culturally, that’s it, and my ties to anyone in the diaspora are based on the same concepts.

50. I don’t take my activism cues from Richard Gere and guys hanging off the Golden Gate Bridge.

    I don’t harbor any nostalgia for an outdated monk-elite ruling Tibet and neither does the Dalai Lama.

    Tibet’s future is inside China. Antagonizing China is not the best strategy, because as they overload spell-checkers everywhere getting ready for the Olympics, their children will remember how dimwits repeatedly tried to blow out the torch of humanity.

    London: morons. France: umm, this country is allowed to protest treatment of minorities?. San Francisco: busloads of Chinese descendants to REPRESENT. Argentina: Southern hemisphere won’t let the torch go out.

    One of the first boycotts of the modern era: African countries did not participate in Games because of New Zealand Rugby team touring South Africa.

    The Olympics themselves are the first time ever so many foreign media will be given such access to China. That is the true yardstick by which their openness to media will be measured, or at least that’s what the IOC says.

    Generally, I am against any cause that involves anything with hanging off the Golden Gate Bridge, unless of course it’s part of an effort to guide misdirected whales out of the Bay and back onto their path in the Pacific.