184 thoughts on “Get up, Stand up TONIGHT in SF”

1. 145 · Vyasa said

   Are you saying that exposing the hypocrisy of a certain worldview is purposeless? I am not the only one who believes otherwise:

   The article makes all the same logical fallacies of which you are guilty. Hypocrisy doesn’t negate the veracity of criticism. Not everyone who posts here is an Indian or an Indian who lives in India. The vast majority of reasonable people will accept much of what you say as being at least partially grounded in valid criticism. Not everyone advocates independence for Tibet, making the issue at hand one of human rights.

   “For centuries, theocratic rulers of the Roof of the World accepted the land was part of the Chinese empire. This elite declared independence during a period of instability in the early twentieth century, but China never accepted it.”

   Once again, this is complete nonsense. I encourage you to do some more historical research. The “Chinese Empire” of which Tibet was a part was ruled by people the majority Chinese considered foreign invaders (Mongols), not the people who govern now, making it a Mongol empire, and negating any of the ownership claims of modern China. In any case, you seem incapable of accepting any of this, since it’s all been posted before, so I’m not going to bother encouraging this trolling anymore.

2. The article makes all the same logical fallacies of which you are guilty. Hypocrisy doesn’t negate the veracity of criticism

   Amusing how he defends his right to be a hypocrite which is another word for an intellectually and morally dishonest person and claim with a straight face that he is being logical. If your criticism of China is valid then by logic India is guilty of similar and much worse offenses. Is it intellectually or morally honest of you to get so upset when India’s gross violations of human rights and dignity are pointed out when you act so hot and bothered by the far milder violations of China?

   <

   blockquote>Not everyone advocates independence for Tibet, making the issue at hand one of human rights

   <

   blockquote>

   The issue here is the right to return to a theocratic autonomy. Tibetan theocracy wasn’t exactly a bastion of human rights was it? Far from it. Its you who needs to do some historical research. Besides, Buddha never advocated the right of monks to political power.The claim that the rule of monks is a “human right” is patently absurd.

   again, this is complete nonsense. I encourage you to do some more historical research. The “Chinese Empire” of which Tibet was a part was ruled by people the majority Chinese considered foreign invaders (Mongols), not the people who govern now, making it a Mongol empire, and negating any of the ownership claims of modern China.

   Ignorant and hypocritical nonsense:

   Ignorant, because the Mongol Yuan Dynasty lasted less than a century. It was followed by the Han Ming Dynasty which in turn was followed by the Manchu Qing Dynasty. The Manchus are assimilated chinese and Manchuria is an integral part of China. China is no longer run by dynasties and there is no reason for its part Tibet to be run by reincarnated lamas. The age of Emperors and Theocracies is over. Welcome to the 21st century.

   Hypocritical, because India’s current borders were bestowed on it by its racially alien British rulers who never assimilated but packed up and left lock, stock and barrel. Does India have any legitimate historical claim over the northeastern states other than the few decades of British Rule over it? Even the mighty Mughal Dynasty of India (which was of mongol extraction BTW) was stopped at Assam. Yet from Nehru on India acts as if it has a god given right to the tibeto-burman northeast and the borders arbitrarily drawn there by british cartographers to separate its Empire from China are somehow sacrosanct!

3. Oops, screwed up the formatting. Admins please delete previous post.

   The article makes all the same logical fallacies of which you are guilty. Hypocrisy doesn’t negate the veracity of criticism

   Amusing how he defends his right to be a hypocrite which is another word for an intellectually and morally dishonest person and claim with a straight face that he is being logical. If your criticism of China is valid then by logic India is guilty of similar and much worse offenses. Is it intellectually or morally honest of you to get so upset when India’s gross violations of human rights and dignity are pointed out when you act so hot and bothered by the far milder violations of China?

   Not everyone advocates independence for Tibet, making the issue at hand one of human rights

   The issue here is the right to return to a theocratic autonomy. Tibetan theocracy wasn’t exactly a bastion of human rights was it? Far from it. Its you who needs to do some historical research. Besides, Buddha never advocated the right of monks to political power.The claim that the rule of monks is a “human right” is patently absurd.

   again, this is complete nonsense. I encourage you to do some more historical research. The “Chinese Empire” of which Tibet was a part was ruled by people the majority Chinese considered foreign invaders (Mongols), not the people who govern now, making it a Mongol empire, and negating any of the ownership claims of modern China.

   Ignorant and hypocritical nonsense:

   Ignorant, because the Mongol Yuan Dynasty lasted less than a century. It was followed by the Han Ming Dynasty which in turn was followed by the Manchu Qing Dynasty. The Manchus are assimilated chinese and Manchuria is an integral part of China. China is no longer run by dynasties and there is no reason for its part Tibet to be run by reincarnated lamas. The age of Emperors and Theocracies is over. Welcome to the 21st century.

   Hypocritical, because India’s current borders were bestowed on it by its racially alien British rulers who never assimilated but packed up and left lock, stock and barrel. Does India have any legitimate historical claim over the northeastern states other than the few decades of British Rule over it? Even the mighty Mughal Dynasty of India (which was of mongol extraction BTW) was stopped at Assam. Yet from Nehru on India acts as if it has a god given right to the tibeto-burman northeast and the borders arbitrarily drawn there by british cartographers to separate its Empire from China are somehow sacrosanct!

4. If you would like to take part in the Protest here in Bangkok, have a look at http://notorch.blogspot.com/ for details on time and place. (those details are not there yet, but once we know you will know).. what we do know is:

   it will be on saturday the 19th April (probably in the afternoon), it will probably be in the area around grand palace, and government area, and it will be peacefull.

   go to http://notorch.blogspot.com/ and find out what we know. and show up.

   if anyone have more details on the route, and timetable, please email us at no.torch@gmail.com

   thanks

5. Thats why you have been correctly accused of being a troll yourself.

   as i told you when you were “desidawg” (i.e. after you were “prema”), i’ll let others decide who is the troll. but i have a feeling that everyone here will be happier if would stfu, and fo to boot. i have no further interest in exchanging insults with you…

6. 137 · Vyasa said

   posing like a wannabe white latte liberal wearing a “free Tibet” tshirt, with hungry eyes darting around looking for acceptance in that crowd.

   hungry eyes? vyasa, you’re truly omniscient like your namesake mahabharata narrator, because i treat the tibet protests as my personal eharmony swayamvara. you must’ve figured my penchant for white-latte-swilling-sons-of-hippies, who prefer to, uh, dance dirty (because they’re foregoing showers to conserve water and energy). and as my casteist hypocrisy would have it, the only brown people my eyes are hungry for are four-veda-reciting-sandhya-and-all-ablutions-performing brahmins.

7. typo, i meant, “if you would stfu”, above

8. 140 · Vyasa said

   A convenient cop out since India is unlikely to be awarded the Olympics in your lifetime.

   I don’t see any basis for that assumption.

   Why do you need an Olympics to protest India’s massive human rights violations anyway?

   Who ever said you did? Anyway, your assertions of equivalence between not protesting a government that is actively (if not always successfully) working to fix the problems you bring up, and refusing to play along with an authoritarian regime that openly demands that everyone endorse its trampling of human rights, are ridiculous on their face. Even ignoring that, your blatant eagerness to call people hypocrites on that basis, without first discerning their attitudes or actions in regards to said problems in India, belies your claim to be making a reasoned argument. You’re not; you’re simply looking to manufacture pretenses for calling Indian people hypocrites.

   Actually, the shameless hypocrisy of indians lecturing others on human rights is effectively my argument.

   Well, I’m glad we’ve got it cleared up that your point is “Indians are assholes,” and not anything to do with China per se.

   Since you all are macaulayite anglophiles you must know the english saying: “people in glass houses should not throw stones”…..

   Presumably that goes for trolls posing as holier-than-thou judges of national character as well? But, anyway, the implication of that saying is that you’re likely to get stones thrown back at your glass house, which you presumably wouldn’t want broken. Except that this reciprocity doesn’t apply here: neither Indians nor Westerners are perturbed by international criticism in the same way that Chinese are. For example, despite your best efforts, you haven’t been able to taunt even a single SM poster in the sort of indignant, juvenile theatrics you seem to crave. So the critics of China don’t seem to be violating the Golden Rule here… Indeed, I suspect that most of them would be only to happy to join you in criticizing India’s problems, if they thought for a second that you were the slightest bit sincere in your concern for them.

   BTW, a better saying would have been “let he who is without sin cast the first stone.”

   So why are the millions of chinese, including hundreds of thousands of students from China, living in the West and exposed to all its media, still so overwhelmingly supportive of its government? Could it be because they can see how well the chinese government has performed since Deng Xiaoping basically abandoned communist orthodoxy?

   Yes, that’s one reason. The social contract there basically comes down to “leave us in power and we’ll enrich the Chinese people/nation.” Another is the decades-long effort by the CCP to instill a reactionary nationalism in the educated classes (which we all know is no mean feat). There are other reasons, but this all is missing the point: the message of the Tibet protests is not the the CCP should be disowned by the Chinese people, but that the approach to Tibet should change. And I have yet to hear a single Chinese person give me a well-reasoned argument for why the Tibet policy deserves their support. What it seems to come down to is that Tibet is a small, remote, powerless nation, and the Han masses are not interested in rocking the boat over it when the stuff that actually affects their daily lives is going well. This isn’t a unique phenomenon, but it is compounded by the authoritarian nature of the CCP, which greatly increases the cost of activism.

   If anything you should have a problem with the Indian press which has brainwashed indians into thinking that India is doing far better than it actually is.

   Can’t say I particularly care about the Indian press. They’re free to report what they want to report, and I do not share your assessment that Indians are unaware of, or cavalier towards, the problems in India. So, feel free to persist in your racist characitures, but understand that nobody buys into your pretenses of reason and righteousness.

9. your blatant eagerness to call people hypocrites on that basis, without first discerning their attitudes or actions in regards to said problems in India, belies your claim to be making a reasoned argument. You’re not; you’re simply looking to manufacture pretenses for calling Indian people hypocrites.

   The “attitudes or actions in regards to said problems in India” I see are denial, defensiveness, dismissiveness. As HRW pointed out, there is a “profound lack of concern” towards the massive human rights violations that have been going on in India in the decades that it has been an independent, democratic nation with a free press. We can see examples of this callous attitude right here.

   Except that this reciprocity doesn’t apply here: neither Indians nor Westerners are perturbed by international criticism in the same way that Chinese are. For example, despite your best efforts, you haven’t been able to taunt even a single SM poster in the sort of indignant, juvenile theatrics you seem to crave. So the critics of China don’t seem to be violating the Golden Rule here…

   First of all dont try to equate yourself with westerners. Westerners do not tolerate the degrading conditions that much of India is forced to live in. Secondly, anyone can see the “indignant, juvenile” reactions from the posters here. Unless you think whining about trolls and cracking silly jokes in desperate attempts to avoid confronting their hypocrisies is cool and mature.

   Indeed, I suspect that most of them would be only to happy to join you in criticizing India’s problems, if they thought for a second that you were the slightest bit sincere in your concern for them.

   You shouldnt need the Olympics to be held in India or proof of my sincerity to do the right thing, do you? Those are just excuses to avoid being intellectually and morally honest about India’s crimes against its children and other offenses.

   a better saying would have been “let he who is without sin cast the first stone.” If you are going to quote from the New Testament Bible a more appropriate saying would be “Why do you look at the speck that is in your brother’s eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye?”. Recognize yourself?

   the message of the Tibet protests is not the the CCP should be disowned by the Chinese people, but that the approach to Tibet should change. And I have yet to hear a single Chinese person give me a well-reasoned argument for why the Tibet policy deserves their support.

   You are not listening then. You seem to think that it is a “human right” for monks to have political power. The modern chinese reject the idea of a theocracy just as they reject the idea of rule by emperors. The Dalai Lama is persona non grata to China because he let himself be used by the CIA in a global powerplay against China. The very idea of buddhist monks clinging to worldly power is anti-thetical to the Buddha’s teaching anyway.

   Can’t say I particularly care about the Indian press. They’re free to report what they want to report, and I do not share your assessment that Indians are unaware of, or cavalier towards, the problems in India.

   Firstly how can indians possibly be unaware of the human degradations that stare them in the face on a daily basis? Secondly if indians are not callous and cavalier about these problems why have the problems persisted for so long with no recognition that it is a crisis situation and no sincere effort to relieve the massive suffering? Thirdly, if indians are not in denial about these problems why does the free indian media and the numerous free indian posters all over the internet keep gloating over India’s shining success and keep mocking and pointing fingers at nations that are doing far better?

   understand that nobody buys into your pretenses of reason and righteousness.

   Presume to speak only for yourself and your ilk. Perhaps in your book ignoring or denying the massive sufferings of your own kind while lecturing others on human values is reasonable and righteous, but do not delude yourself that you are fooling everybody.

10. But, Vyasa, which do you prefer? Dosas or scallion pancakes?

11. http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/opinions/2947777.cms

    You quoted this article, but do you understand that this was written by an Indian in an indian media newspaper? Thats freedom of speech and press. Show me an article written by a Chinese man, published in Chinese press, with similar scathing views of the Chinese government?

    We are not above criticizing our own country and government. The “people who live in glass houses..” argument is bs, because that would mean there would be no criticism at all and evil would just thrive.

12. 159 · Vyasa said

    Firstly how can indians possibly be unaware of the human degradations that stare them in the face on a daily basis? Secondly if indians are not callous and cavalier about these problems why have the problems persisted for so long with no recognition that it is a crisis situation and no sincere effort to relieve the massive suffering? Thirdly, if indians are not in denial about these problems why does the free indian media and the numerous free indian posters all over the internet keep gloating over India’s shining success and keep mocking and pointing fingers at nations that are doing far better?

    Vyasa,

    Why are you so cynical of India?

13. 159 · Vyasa said

    The “attitudes or actions in regards to said problems in India” I see are denial, defensiveness, dismissiveness.

    Oh, and where have I ever denied that India had problems? It absurd how you think that some characiture of Indians as self-righteous hypocrites somehow extends you the authority to judge individuals you have no knowledge of.

    First of all dont try to equate yourself with westerners.

    Funny, I thought that having been born in the West and lived here all my life qualified me as a genuine Westerner. You do understand that this site is run by and for people in the United States, right? And that going around trying to assign identities to strangers on the Internet is a patently ridiculous tactic?

    You shouldnt need the Olympics to be held in India or proof of my sincerity to do the right thing, do you? Those are just excuses to avoid being intellectually and morally honest about India’s crimes against its children and other offenses.

    Ah, but I wasn’t talking about “doing the right thing” (again, you have no idea what stances or actions I’ve taken on India outside of this thread), but rather about empowering the conversation you keep trying to have. Of course, you seem to think that the two are the same thing, but this is on its face a silly, self-serving supposition.

    If you are going to quote from the New Testament Bible a more appropriate saying would be “Why do you look at the speck that is in your brother’s eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye?”. Recognize yourself?

    Well, at least you’re trying to be literate here. But for you to have a point would still require the assumption that I give India a pass, when I don’t. And no amount of characterizations of Indian press or other SM posters is going to change that: they don’t speak for me. That you’re so eager to call me a hypocrite that you skip over the part of the conversation where you learn about what my stances are, and instead just assign me convenient straw-man positions, is pretty stupid.

    You seem to think that it is a “human right” for monks to have political power.

    Please point out a single instance of me advocating theocracy, in Tibet or anywhere else. Supporting self-determination for Tibet is just that: support for the right of the Tibetan nation to choose its own destiny. I would prefer to see them choose a liberal democracy, but the bottom line is that their right to self determination is more important than any opinions I might have about what form their government should take. In any case, I wouldn’t choose to live under the CCP regime any more than I’d choose to live under a theocracy, so…

    The modern chinese reject the idea of a theocracy just as they reject the idea of rule by emperors.

    Good for them. Of course, modern China is a territorial empire, headed by an unaccountable overlord (who happens to have climbed the Party ladder by, you guessed it, suppressing unrest in Tibet), but… hey, whatever makes for a good slogan, right?

    The Dalai Lama is persona non grata to China because he let himself be used by the CIA in a global powerplay against China.

    Sort of like how the CCP, its military, and its settler are persona non grata to Tibet because of their power play against the independent Tibetan state. None of that means that they can’t sit down like grown-ups and come to an acceptable agreement. Particularly considering that the Tibetan side has such a reasonable set of goals.

    The very idea of buddhist monks clinging to worldly power is anti-thetical to the Buddha’s teaching anyway.

    Yeah, good thing we have China around to enforce the Buddha’s teachings through violence. Oh, wait…

    Firstly how can indians possibly be unaware of the human degradations that stare them in the face on a daily basis?

    Having lived my entire life in the United States of America, like many people on SM, I find this question to be somewhat irrelevant. Again, what is the basis for all of your assumptions about my positions on India, national identity, and daily life? Given that they’re all completely wrong, and yet just happen to support your urge to call me a hypocrite, you can see why they come off as suspicious.

    Secondly if indians are not callous and cavalier about these problems why have the problems persisted for so long with no recognition that it is a crisis situation and no sincere effort to relieve the massive suffering?

    I reject the premises of that question. Indeed, I had explicitly rejected them before you even posed it, so I don’t know what you think this is going to prove to me. I’m already well aware that you’re committed to your characterization of Indians; but why do you think that repeating it for the 100th time in this thread is going to prove anything?

    Thirdly, if indians are not in denial about these problems why does the free indian media and the numerous free indian posters all over the internet keep gloating over India’s shining success and keep mocking and pointing fingers at nations that are doing far better?

    Can’t say I share that perception either. Although I’d note that it’s perfectly possible for a national media to be both honestly self critical and also fiercely proud. Except, of course, in authoritarian states where criticism is equated with treason.

    Presume to speak only for yourself and your ilk.

    Can’t see where I’ve done anything other than that… you’re the one that keeps trying to tell me what I think, over my own objections.

    Perhaps in your book ignoring or denying the massive sufferings of your own kind while lecturing others on human values is reasonable and righteous, but do not delude yourself that you are fooling everybody.

    And perhaps in your book assigning straw-man positions to others without any support or justification is a convincing debate technique, but do not delude yourself that you are fooling anybody.

14. This clown Vyasa is now giving us lectures on buddhism and human rights, he is proving that indians have problems by quoting from the many opinions found in the free indian press! All this while supporting a dictatorship which murdered more than 10 million of its own citizens during the 60s and 70s and even today does not permit dissent or open access to information for its citizens.

    It is like having a shark give a long and detailed sermon on the virtues of vegetarianism – bizarre, absurd, tragic but nevertheless useful – because it exposes the thinking of such an entity before the whole world. So now I understand better some of the problems of chinese ultra-nationalism and the danger it poses to asia and the world at large.

15. Vyasa’s comments get us closer to the truth than further away from it.

    Why do you care so much about media freedom in China? They don’t seem to be bothered by it. Besides, it’s the Olympic Games that are seen as the best opportunity at ‘opening up’ China… the first time so many media will be gathered in China. They’re getting ready to host a party for the world and we are acting like ungrateful guests. This is how their children will remember our actions.

    I thought the reason why so many of us are supporting Obama is because we want a new way to engage with the world. These protests seem like good old-fashioned antagonizing to me.

    I look forward to 2028, when all of you hypocrites will condemn me for protesting India’s terrible human rights record leading up to the New Delhi games.

16. Fellow troll, Krish****, opines –

    Why do you care so much about media freedom in China? They don’t seem to be bothered by it.

    How do you know that buddy? Did you take a poll there? Where are the results? What was the methodology used? Or is this special knowledge that only members of the chinese communist party possess?

    Your comments would be really funny, if they didnt stink so much of arrogance and self-serving duplicity.

    And, yes, even hypocrites have the right to protest things they dont like. I realize you are never going to understand simple ideas like that.

17. 165 · Krish**** said

    Why do you care so much about media freedom in China?

    I, for one, care about media freedom everywhere. China is of particular interest because they are the single most influential, significant state that does not respect media freedom. As long as China maintains such an attitude, and openly defends the legitimacy of it, there is hope for every petty tyrant in the world. If China were to embrace human rights and democracy, the global triumph of those ideals would be assured. Sort of like how their embrace of capitalism was the death knell of communism.

    They don’t seem to be bothered by it.

    Indeed, the pernicious effects of authoritarianism on polities that are subjected to it is a very grave concern.

    Besides, it’s the Olympic Games that are seen as the best opportunity at ‘opening up’ China…

    Or so the IOC has been telling us, anyway. For their part, China seems to view it as an opportunity for everyone else to unquestioningly approve of them. It’s the clash between these two conflicting fantasies as the Games become imminent that is creating so much tension.

    the first time so many media will be gathered in China. They’re getting ready to host a party for the world and we are acting like ungrateful guests. This is how their children will remember our actions.

    If I’m “ungrateful” that they’ve gone on a spree of locking up dissidents in order to ensure that there won’t be anyone “subversive” for all those foreign media to interview, then so be it. I just hope that my children remember that we didn’t quietly sit by and get steamrolled by an authoritarian regime seeking to boost its international legitimacy. The whole implication that we should be focussed on currying favor with China, since, of course, they’re going to rule the world within a decade, is pretty vapid.

    I thought the reason why so many of us are supporting Obama is because we want a new way to engage with the world. These protests seem like good old-fashioned antagonizing to me.

    The new way to engage with the world I had in mind doesn’t involve rolling over for authoritarian regimes in the name of politeness. Which, by the way, is exactly what Bush does with China, Saudi Arabia, Egypt and countless other examples.

    I look forward to 2028, when all of you hypocrites will condemn me for protesting India’s terrible human rights record leading up to the New Delhi games.

    Well, at least we’ve progressed to where the strawmen underpinning the accusations of hypocrisy are explicitly hypothetical…

18. Isn’t the many-headed monster behind Vyasa/Prema terribly inconsistent though? I mean, isn’t Prema a woman’s name?

19. 168 · Meena said

    I mean, isn’t Prema a woman’s name?

    Yeah, what’s up with that?

20. I mean, isn’t Prema a woman’s name?

    No, Prema (2030-2116 AD) is a transgendered reincarnation of Shakti. [wiki] [Prema Sai Baba’s timeline]

21. 166 · Al beruni said

    Fellow troll, Krish****, opines – Shameless hypocrisy. They claim to be fighting for the right to free speech in China but when the free speech here isnt going to their liking…….

    , yes, even hypocrites have the right to protest things they dont like. I realize you are never going to understand simple ideas like that.

    Lol. In your twisted worldview hypocrisy is a human right as is rule by reincarnated lamas. While abominations like child slavery etc in India are nothing to get worked up over. Ugly and obscene to say the least.

22. 171 · Vyasa said

    Shameless hypocrisy. They claim to be fighting for the right to free speech in China but when the free speech here isnt going to their liking…….

    Free speech doesn’t mean nobody ever tells anybody that they’re a fool with worthless opinions and highly suspicious motives. Quite the opposite, in fact. Free speech just means that the government can’t force you to shut up; other free speakers can, and will, encourage you to shut up all the time. And you, in turn, are free to ignore them, or tell them to shut up themselves, or whatever else you want.

    In your twisted worldview hypocrisy is a human right

    No, freedom of conscience is a human right, hypocrisy is just a corollary to that.

23. I would prefer to see them choose a liberal democracy

    You mean a liberal democracy like India? Which after more than a half century remains home to more hungry people, more child slaves, more people living without clean water and access to sanitation facilities. etc etc than the rest of the world combined. Why do you wish that on the Tibetans? Visitors to Tibet under chinese rule arent horrified by the living conditions of the tibetans as they are by the conditions in India. Why are you so much more concerned about tibetan rights than indian rights? Isnt the right to food and water the most fundamental human need and right?

    If China were to embrace human rights and democracy, the global triumph of those ideals would be assured. Sort of like how their embrace of capitalism was the death knell of communism.

    Firstly, what have those ideals accomplished for India? Some 80% of whose population lives under the global extreme poverty line of $1 a day; and 25% of whose population lives under the Indian govts definition of extreme poverty: 33 cents a day.

    Secondly, I am glad you, unlike some other ignoramuses here , recognize that China isnt practicing communism anymore. But while Maoism may have died in China it is gaining strength in the Indian subcontinent: the Maoists in Nepal have just gained political power. They will be running Nepal now not the hindu monarchy. Their victory is bound to energize and embolden India’s own Maoist insurgency. With he world’s largest concentration of hungry people facing a food crisis of gargantuan proportions, South Asia is ripe for some revolutionary changes. India is likely to be on the front pages for all the reasons that indians like you try desperately to hide or ignore.

24. 173 · Vyasa said

    You mean a liberal democracy like India?

    I was thinking more of the United States.

    Which after more than a half century remains home to more hungry people, more child slaves, more people living without clean water and access to sanitation facilities. etc etc than the rest of the world combined.

    None of which is attributable to liberal Democracy per se. I.e., there also happen to be liberal democracies that have the highest standards of living in the world. Not that I have any illusions that this diversion wasn’t intentional trolling, but still…

    Why are you so much more concerned about tibetan rights than indian rights?

    Why can’t you write a single response without putting words in peoples’ mouths?

    Isnt the right to food and water the most fundamental human need and right?

    Some people think so. Others think that political rights are more fundamental. I tend to fall into the latter camp, although not without some reservations. More to the point, it is not the responsibility of China to ensure Tibetans’ access to food and water (if they were to give up being an occupying power, anyway), but it IS their responsibility not to interfere with their right to self-determination.

    Firstly, what have those ideals accomplished for India? Some 80% of whose population lives under the global extreme poverty line of $1 a day; and 25% of whose population lives under the Indian govts definition of extreme poverty: 33 cents a day.

    There are other things besides economic development that are worthy goals. National self-determination, for example. But, again, this whole choice between liberal Democracy and economic development is a false dichotomy: the richest, most prosperous countries in the world are all liberal democracies. And although it’s true that Tibet has developed a lot since China took over, that does not imply that they would magically return to their former economic status if China were to grant them meaningful autonomy. Likewise for their political system. Nobody is advocating turning back the clock to 1951. What is desired is progress and freedom.

    With he world’s largest concentration of hungry people facing a food crisis of gargantuan proportions, South Asia is ripe for some revolutionary changes. India is likely to be on the front pages for all the reasons that indians like you try desperately to hide or ignore.

    Remind me again where I’ve hid or ignored anything about India? Oh, that’s right, you can’t be bothered to back up your invective. Which is why it’s so easy to brush off.

25. Isnt the right to food and water the most fundamental human need and right? Some people think so. Others think that political rights are more fundamental. I tend to fall into the latter camp

    That highlights your cynical, selfish, amoral callousness. Its so easy for people like you, having escaped the grinding poverty and hunger of India, to talk so glibly about political rights being more fundamental than the right to food and water. Would you feel similarly if you were watching your children starve before your eyes?

    the richest, most prosperous countries in the world are all liberal democracies

    Wrong. A number of them are monarchies. Secondly, and more tellingly, the majority (by far) of the world’s hungry and extremely poor people live in democracies like India and Bangladesh. There are more abjectly poor, illiterate, starving humans living in democracies than under any other system of government. So much for your ignorant correlation of democracy with prosperity.

    The questions you need to ask are: why does democracy work for people of european and east asian extraction but not for indians and africans? and why should a nation continue to cling to a system of government that has failed to deliver the basic requirements of its citizens even after three generations?

26. the richest countries are economically free, including countries like singapore and hong kong who severely restrict political freedom. democracy is about freedom, not equality, something the fabians never understood. so as india’s gini coefficient increases, her poverty decreases, at a remarkable rate in fact. china will eventually become politically free, india economically.

27. 175 · Vyasa said

    That highlights your cynical, selfish, amoral callousness.

    Uh huh. Maybe next time you could at least quote the entire sentence before launching into the unfounded characterizations.

    Its so easy for people like you, having escaped the grinding poverty and hunger of India,

    More baseless assumptions about my life and background, from someone that’s never met me. Why is it that you can’t make an argument that does not depend on the identity of the person it’s addressed to?

    to talk so glibly about political rights being more fundamental than the right to food and water.

    I wasn’t glib at all, despite your selective quoting. I want everyone to enjoy all rights. You’re the one arguing that it’s okay for China to override Tibetans’ rights.

    Would you feel similarly if you were watching your children starve before your eyes?

    Would you feel the same way if the CCP were subject to electoral control, and so it wasn’t a matter of national pride to defend authoritarianism?

    Wrong. A number of them are monarchies.

    Oh yeah? Name one.

    Secondly, and more tellingly, the majority (by far) of the world’s hungry and extremely poor people live in democracies like India and Bangladesh. There are more abjectly poor, illiterate, starving humans living in democracies than under any other system of government.

    That, of course, is because there are more democracies than any other form of government. With the exception of a few stubborn hold-outs, everyone in the world has realized that it’s a superior form of government to all others that have ever been tried. That poor countries are among those that realized this and acted upon it is not a fault of democracy; quite the reverse, in fact.

    So much for your ignorant correlation of democracy with prosperity.

    I was pointing out that there is no correlation between being undemocratic and prosperity, which is not the same thing as asserting that there is a correlation between democracy and prosperity. I.e., Tibet is not faced with a choice between democracy + poverty, or authoritarianism + prosperity (except to the extent that China would work to undermine them if they managed to get a democracy of their own, that is). That said, correlation is an average quantity, and so it bears mentioning that the fact that the overwhelming majority of rich, prosperous people live in liberal democracies cancels out your assertion. To really answer this question, you’d need to look at how well the various democracies in the world have faired compared to their previous forms of government (there were plenty of poor people in India before they got democracy, after all). If you were to look at this issue seriously, you’d find that democracy is generally quite good for business. Just look at the Korean peninsula. Or Taiwan.

    The questions you need to ask are: why does democracy work for people of european and east asian extraction but not for indians and africans?

    Actually, the question on my mind is: does Vyasa really think he’s proving anything except that he’s a racist?

    and why should a nation continue to cling to a system of government that has failed to deliver the basic requirements of its citizens even after three generations?

    I suppose because it still beats all the other systems they’ve tried, which were at least as bad in terms of basic services, and ALSO deprived people of their rights. Not that I accept the premise that India hasn’t seen massive strides forward in the last 60 years (people have been predicting large-scale starvation there for generations, and yet the population keeps growing… and the decline the percentage of people below the poverty line in recent decades has been similar to other spots in Asia).

    Also, let’s not get too carried away with your exaggerations of the differences in poverty between China and India. Despite all of the growth in China in recent years, there is still a 9-digit number of poor people there. Huge swaths of the country do not have access to running water, much less clean running water. This is no surprise: one of the keys to Chinese manufacturing growth has been the massive supply of desperately poor people willing to work for peanuts. For hundreds of millions of Chinese, the only thing the CCP has done about their living conditions is to paper over them by suppressing protests and preventing media coverage. Naturally, your insecurity about the huge problems remaining in China is one of the major factors motivating you to demonize India but, still, for someone who’se going to call others glib…

    Moreover, why are you even bothering to wrap your invective in sham arguments in the first place? If you aren’t going to make even a token effort at a substantiative argument, it doesn’t add anything to your credibility. Obviously, your strategy is to keep taking cheap shots at India in the hope that you’ll hit a nerve somewhere and provoke an embarassing response. In which case, why the pretense of seriousness? Is it just in hopes that the interns won’t delete your posts and ban you? It certainly doesn’t add any heft to your assertions of righteousness.

    My apologies to any third parties that have actually read this thread.

28. I’m planning a candle-light vigil to protest the arrests, who’s with me?

    http://www.nytimes.com/2008/04/17/world/asia/17torch.html?_r=1&hp&oref=slogin

29. http://www.guernicamag.com/features/556/post_1/

    While many governments now involve indigenous groups in environmental conservation, India is on the verge of creating what might become the largest mass eviction for conservation ever. Groups like India’s Adivasis have come to be called “conservation refugees.” But many conservationists now say conservation initiatives are doomed to fail without them.

30. 178 · Krish**** said

    I’m planning a candle-light vigil to protest the arrests, who’s with me? http://www.nytimes.com/2008/04/17/world/asia/17torch.html?_r=1&hp&oref=slogin

    If you actually followed SM closely enough to be able to critique it, you’d know that there was already an entire post/thread lambasting India for not being more supportive of Tibet and less deferent to China. But, hey, why resist a cheap shot?

31. Did I miss the candlelight vigil for that, as well? Were there people reading poetry in Portugese or reciting Tibetan couplets?

    Of the two links I posted, the 2nd one was more interesting. Other links I’ve posted in this thread were discussions on India being a net-aid giver.

    These are all good articles that I like that I never see make it to Sepia. I’m just surprised they don’t get caught by such a well-read readership. A bias of some kind?

    I’m not one to talk about bias or deny anyone who’s moving forward with a cause. I just like a bit more rational approach. And, in this forum, I think Vyasa has carried the day.

    Why do we have to talk about Tibetans just by themselves? What about the Uighurs and the Muslim west of China?

    And their current policies?

    Well, they’re no different than India. The march toward modernity/development/progress/whatever-you-want-to-call-it will bring all sorts of challenges to these countries.

    And this is not India doing this, this is an NGO displacing millions in their blind quest for ‘conservation’.

    http://www.guernicamag.com/features/556/post_1/

    Almost four million people were at that time living inside India’s formally protected areas, and alongside several million others in surrounding towns and villages. Most of them resided there before the protected areas were created, and all were heavily dependent on local natural resources for fuel, fodder, medicines, fish, water and non-timber forest products. “To pass an order that denies all ‘rights and concessions’ to such people is virtually like telling them to pack up and go,” proclaimed Indian sociologist Ashish Kothari. “Both the WWF petition and the learned judges’ order are, to put it bluntly, devoid of any sense of grounded reality. Even if the procedure for inquiry was to be done properly, it could be grossly unjust to villagers.”

32. 181 · Krish**** said

    Why do we have to talk about Tibetans just by themselves? What about the Uighurs and the Muslim west of China?

    Who ever said we had to talk about Tibetans in isolation? I’m happy to talk about how badly China is screwing over the Uighurs.

33. Oh yeah? Name one.

    Brunei, UAE, Qatar, Bahrain all have per capita incomes over $25,000. The UAE is ranked third richest above the USA. According to this list:

    http://www.aneki.com/countries_gdp_per_capita.html

    the majority (by far) of the world’s hungry and extremely poor people live in democracies like India and Bangladesh. There are more abjectly poor, illiterate, starving humans living in democracies than under any other system of government …..That of course, is because there are more democracies than any other form of government.

    There are at least 50 nations of the world that are not democracies including China the largest country by population. Some one-third of the total world population still lives under non-democratic govts. Democratic India (with around 15% of the global population) alone accounts for more than half the world’s extremely poor and hungry! That glaring failure of a long term stable democracy makes a mockery of your claims. Add the poor and hungry in other democracies like Bangladesh, Indonesia, Phillipines, Guatemala, the various african democracies etc and one can see that a disproportional number of the poor and hungry live in democracies.

    it bears mentioning that the fact that the overwhelming majority of rich, prosperous people live in liberal democracies cancels out your assertion.

    Do explain how the miserable failure of democracy in India is “canceled out” by the successes of democracy in western europe, north america and east asia??

    If you were to look at this issue seriously, you’d find that democracy is generally quite good for business. Just look at the Korean peninsula. Or Taiwan.

    China is considered excellent for doing business as well. So is Dubai. Much better than most democracies including India. So whats your point? Democracy is not a necessary requirement for capitalism to flourish as China is showing.

    I suppose because it still beats all the other systems they’ve tried

    What other system has INdia tried in the 60 years it has been independent?

    Also, let’s not get too carried away with your exaggerations of the differences in poverty between China and India.

    You have to be really ignorant to deny that China is miles ahead of India. The most extreme manifestation of poverty is hunger. India leads the world in this metric both in total numbers and in percentage. One has to be really thick-skinned, truly heartless and totally shameless to ignore India’s inexcusable callousness towards the worst suffering in the world and instead taunt nations like China which has a far better record feeding (and educating, and employing) its citizens.

34. I’ll agree that Democracy doesn’t work for all countries. The people must want it for it to prevail. The Chinese people seem far too happy giving up a few rights in exchange for economic success and protection and “one china” and other propaganda that their government pushes out regularly.

    And democracy and economic success have nothing to do with each other. The fact that USA is so rich is because of its Capitalistic ideals, not because of Democratic morals. So, lets not mis-diagnose the effects of democracy. The fact that India is still so poor is because of corruption, population explosion, and the basic behavioral characteristic that Indians look before they leap (i.e. less risk taking).