I heart our readers. I do:
Anna,
Hi I live in SF, and was planning on attending the rally tomorrow voicing concerns around China’s various human rights abuses.
I believe you live in SF? In any case are you aware of a Mutineer Team gathering to protest tomorrow?
Dear Mutineer,
I actually live in Washington, D.C. (that’s why Chocolate City gets all the meetups), but you aren’t the only one who thought otherwise; I frequently receive emails, FB messages, and tweets from people who think I still live in Baghdad by the bay. 🙂
Since I am 3,ooo miles away from tomorrow’s action (and since I haven’t been well enough to blog), at this point, I am unaware of any organized effort to mutiny– but I’m thrilled you thought there could be. If I were home, I’d be there, with extra Ricola, in solidarity with you and other people of conscience. Since I can’t be there, I thought I’d put up this post to help you connect with potential co-protesters; it’s the least I can do for a reader like you.
Well? Who’s in? 🙂More, including how to stay updated in real time:
Tibetans and their supporters from all over North America are converging on San Francisco for this historic opportunity to shine the Olympic spotlight on China’s brutality in Tibet. SF Team Tibet is organizing a Press Conference, Rally and Candle Light Vigil on April 8th and a Mass Mobilization on April 9. Send a text message with the word SFTORCH to the phone number 41411 to receive important text message updates on April 8th and the 9th. [link]
You still have time to make tonight’s’ candlelight vigil:
6.25 Candle Light Vigil with International Campaign for Tibet begins
Join Richard Gere, Archbishop Desmond Tutu, Tibetan leaders and other special guests for a historic rally and candle light vigil in support of the Tibetan people and their struggle for basic human rights. As China prepares to host the Olympics in August, the government is conducting the worst crackdown in Tibet since the 1960s Cultural Revolution.
Come show your support for the Tibetan and Chinese people on the eve of the Beijing Olympic torch passing through San Francisco – the only stop in North America.
Where: United Nations Plaza, at Market & Hyde, near Civic Center BART
Rally & Speeches 6:00pm
Culture / Music 7:15pm
Candle Light Vigil 8:00pm [link]
If you missed out on today’s events, go tomorrow:
April 9 Team Tibet Mass Mobilization to Protest the Olympic Torch Relay in San Francisco San Francisco Torch Route
Join us! Meet up: 10a: Ferry Park (between Washington & Clay streets off of Drum. Near Embarcadero 4 of the Embarcadero Center. ) Get off the BART at Embarcadero and walk toward Justing Herman Plaza. You will not be able to miss us, really! Map of the meeting point coming soon. [link]
Tricksy hobbitses: Note: the torch route has been changed!
We have just heard that the torch route has been changed, with on-the-run Gavin Newsom’s office announcing that “the route of the Olympic torch has been changed from the published course to a new route whose details will not be made public.” Since we don’t know anything and apparently won’t, plan still to meet at the Ferry Park on Wednesday, though you might want to show up considerably earlier than 10a just in case tricky Gav tries to run it early. Check back here for more news as we activate. [link]
@Desidude & Ardy On the boundary issue From afar, it seems like the claimants have “good faith” dispute arising because (1) the wasteland area was never demarcated, so objectively non one can really make a solid claim as to the exact boundary; (2) the disputed areas were never part of the core of either country; (3) they are not populated by the main ethnic group of either country. Obviously there are some on both sides who want 100% of the disputed area, others willing to settle it at 50-50 or whatever.
To me – as someone who knows little of the issue’s history, the logical solution is to fix it at the current LOC, especially since the territories’ value is relatively slight in the overall economic & security context. This could be done in 1 hour if both sides desired, given satellite mapping and exact lattitude/longitude.
Probably China, had I a say in running it, could even have much of the Tibetan plateau demilitarized of heavy weapons to alleviate India’s security concerns. If the boundary dispute is settled nothing except border guards and maybe some light infantry are needed. (Basing stuff costs money, so it’s win/win.)
Personally I don’t know which side is impeding a final agreement. If it is the CCP holding things up it’s because they probably don’t recognize the importance of settling the issue to India. When I look at Rediff threads 1/3 are on the border disputes with Pakistan or China; on Xinhua threads, not so much.
Interesting. Just wrote a post on this very issue on my blog.
Protesting is a fundamental right, indeed a bounded duty, as my man, Benjamin Franklin would have said.
But I can’t help but think that most of the protesers in London, Paris and SFO belong to the Che-T-shirt-wearing, bleeding-heart liberal segment who wouldn’t think twice before purchasing any products of these brands sponsoring the Beijing Olympics: http://en.beijing2008.cn/90/53/column211995390.shtml
Where were these guys when China was awarded the Olympics more than eight years ago? Also, have they spared a thought for the thousands of athletes whose dream it is to participate in these Games?
As Rahul mentioned, these people would choose EDLP (Every Day Low Prices) over FT (Free Tibet) in a heartbeat.
Sorry, I meant to post using my regular handle, ‘Buzza’. Typed in my first name instead in post # 52. Apologies.
Vyasa, Chinese children go to school. Oh boy,Gee what a revelation. I did not know that /sarcasm off Now, Have you heard of the brick kiln in China where thousands of children were held in slavery
http://www.iht.com/articles/2007/06/18/news/china.php
Guess those children were just doing a little after school work I guess. Silly me
And why is comparing India to Bangladesh, haiti etc..absurd. You said India has the WORST human rights record, you did not say BAD, you said worst. Therefore, there should be nobody worse than India right?
Oops there goes that argument
@ Al beruni
I strongly suspect the main reason for continued censorship in China is precisely because the CIA & bought reporters run wild when restrictions are loosened. That sounds like paranoia to the average liberal American but it’s not.
Cynically, that’s probably the real reason why the US always badgers China on this issue – because such operations are no longer possible. That restrictions may hinder China’s citizens probably does not actually matter to them.
I’ll further play the devil’s advocate and claim that even with restrictions speech is far freer in China than in the US.
In the U.S., the speech code of political correctness forces one to pre-censor one’s word stream. This is highly irritating, at least to me.
I have traveled to China. You can say anything in everyday speech, including criticism of the government. Nobody cares. I’ve written analyses of problems with swathes of the government’s policies, including those pertaining to the Communist ideological core, and they’re posted online by mainstream research organizations in China. The government doesn’t care.
A professor could advocate all the usual human rights stuff in class and no one cares. In the U.S., choose the wrong word and the professor’s fired. Pick a particularly bad word his career’s over.
Someone in China would have to really go out of their way to get the government on their case, like open an activist organization and make repetitive, unsound arguments.
The activist arrests publicized on CNN (e.g. Harry Wu, Rebiya Kadeer), it turns out ~80-90% are on foreign intelligence payroll.
Nah, sorry. If you were there at any of these protests, you’d clearly see that the people protesting were NOT the “Che” variety, including myself. Che was not a pacifist, and yesterday’s rally was 100% non violent.
And for what its worth, When I heard that Coca Cola was sponsoring the torch run through Tibet, I clearly decided not to purchase Coca Cola again (It’d be good for my health anyway). So, last night after the rally, when ordering some fast food, Seeing that “Coca Cola” and its posse of drinks were the only thing served at that place, I chose water. I’m gonna follow this up with a letter to their PR department. American companies need to put ethics before capitalistic greed.
“bleeding-heart liberal” ? Ok, I’ll take that label. Whats wrong with having compassion?
Han, did you go to Tianmen Square with your T-shirt emblazoned with “Free Tibet”?
Oh, and needless to say, I am boycotting Orange Sesame Chicken as well. Damnit! I loved that thing!
Agreed. But rax, my point was not that these protests were violent. Hell, most people in the ‘Che’ variety are passive herbal tea drinkers who while away the hours discussing ‘oppression’ and ‘free love’ at places like Veggie-Planet in Cambridge (which is awesome, by the way).
My point was that a lot of these protesters are simply along for the ride, and are actually hurting the cause of the Tibetans by deflecting attention away from the real issues, which is Tibetans not getting their share of the economic pie that the Chinese are baking. His Holiness, the Dalai Lama, does not approve of such tactics and has categorically ruled out a boycott of the Olympics.
None at all. Except that my point was this ‘compassion’ is somewhat driven by wallets and brand loyalty. You passed on Coke (!), good on you. No, really.
Han, The Communist propaganda must be very strong. So you have more free speech in China? Maybe the Falun Gong sect can have something to say on that. Oops, their organs have been harvested already. China bans google, has no independent private news channels in the mainland, that is not censored, bans foreign journals in Tibet except for a few doctored photoshoots, and you still claim that China is better in free speech.
US has a few problems with PC, but it nowhere compares to the censoring in China. Yeah the US badgers China as China tries to screw the US at every chance. Just a few days ago, a DOD official was caught trying to sell military secrets to China. Now the US is no angel and is a cynical, selfish power but so is everyone else. But there atleast one can protest (like against the iraq war) and call the president names without fear. When such a thing is possible in China, you can claim about freedom in China. Not till then.
And like Al-beruni asked,if China is so great and US is so evil why are you in the US?
Indian origin South Asian regional specialists in academia do nothing besides criticize India, so that pretty much answers your question. China specialists on the other hand urge “nuance & balance” in the examination of PROC. How else has a country that pushes Han monoculturalism and even spent money for scientific research “proving” that they developed from a separate branch of early humanity escape the fascist tag?
Look this is a bad argument; its like saying you cannot criticize a government or a state/regime unless you leave it. Han possibly likes living here, has friends and family here, but all that is completely irrelevant to his argument (flawed though they may be). This “like it or leave it” mentality is deeply authoritarian and uncomfortably smells like a commissar’s line (or occasional lines from the rulers of Singapore when sometimes questioned about the lack of freedom).
Why are American businesses with catchy mission statements like “do no evil” operating in China?
Why did, until very recently, AT&T secretly provide direct access to its network to the NSA for monitoring internet traffic?
The reality is the people who are for the ‘Free Tibet’ movement have no clue how complex the issue is. Even the Dalai Lama acknowledges that the monk-aristocracy that ruled Tibet is something that should be left in the past. He has acknowledged that Tibet’s future is as a part of China.
I do not like how China treats him and I think these protests only weaken his position, because it only antagonizes China.
China views the Olympic games as their ‘coming out’ and taking their rightful place in the world. They view it in the context of a nation with a history of being victimized by colonialism and western imperialism.
The people in this forum would balk at the mere suggestion of a vote of self-determination in Kashmir. How much sympathy do you all have for the descendants of the Princely states who want their territorial claims returned?
These protests are silly and show just how disconnected and out-of-touch westerners are with the changes going on in Asia.
@ Krish#$%,
The reality is the people who are for the ‘Free Tibet’ movement have no clue how complex the issue is.
Ok,enlighten us.
I do not like how China treats him and I think these protests only weaken his position, because it only antagonizes China.
China views the Olympic games as their ‘coming out’ and taking their rightful place in the world. They view it in the context of a nation with a history of being victimized by colonialism and western imperialism
While they go about doing the same to others
The people in this forum would balk at the mere suggestion of a vote of self-determination in Kashmir. How much sympathy do you all have for the descendants of the Princely states who want their territorial claims returned?
Umm,the plebistice for Kashmir is unnecessary as the, the legal ruler signed a document aggreeing to be a part of India. He did this as Pakistan invaded. Had Pakistan not invaded in 1948, Kashmir could very well be independent.As far as the princely states go, no sympathy as the ruled in those states as very happy to be a part of India. There are no protests in Hyderabad against being a part of India, clearly not in the case of Tibet. Besides, all the princely states had always been a part of “India” be the Mauryan or the Mughal empire. Going by your logic, CA and TX should be a part of Mexico right?
These protests are silly and show just how disconnected and out-of-touch westerners are with the changes going on in Asia. No,this just shows how ignorant you are
@ sigh! What I meant was Han’s constant claim that China is better than the US. Therefore, my question was very relevant. If he thinks China so much better than the US, why stay here?. It is not authoritarian to point out hypocrisy. If you are a citizen of a country while claiming allegiance to another antogonistic country, you have no business staying in the first country (kinda like Tokyo Rose)
Is this a serious comment, or parody?
I don’t want to derail the thread, but didn’t want to leave this comment unchallenged, so just one note on it. Blaming predatory lending practices on the CRA – which made them illegal – is a humongous stretch and a fringe view probably being floated to avoid further legislation, the really serious problem has been the absolute lack of any sort of regulation of the mortage-backed securities market, based on a baseless argument of “market responsibility” which has been disproven time and time again. The estimates of the entire credit derivative market, and the nominal values of the CDS that the big banks are believed to hold, are staggering. Any sort of reasonable disclosure would never allows this mindblowing level of risk taking, which is now requiring massive bailouts on taxpayer money.
Desidude,
Your comments remind me of the following saying:
It’s better to keep your mouth shut and appear stupid than open it and remove all doubt 🙁
Of course India has by far the WORST human rights record on earth. In what other country is 15% of the population considered untouchable by birth? Which country treats women and children as cruelly as India? Which country has such a high number of beggars? Which country has a higher malnutrition rate than the subsaharan region if not India (and Bangladesh)? Which country is home to more bonded labor? To more child slaves? To more child prostitutes (sanctioned by the majority religion even)? Read and weep if you have any shame at all:
http://www.hrw.org/reports/1996/India3.htm
“With credible estimates ranging from 60 to 115 million, India has the largest number of working children in the world. Whether they are sweating in the heat of stone quarries, working in the fields sixteen hours a day, picking rags in city streets, or hidden away as domestic servants, these children endure miserable and difficult lives. They earn little and are abused much. They struggle to make enough to eat and perhaps to help feed their families as well. They do not go to school; more than half of them will never learn the barest skills of literacy. Many of them have been working since the age of four or five, and by the time they reach adulthood they may be irrevocably sick or deformed-they will certainly be exhausted, old men and women by the age of forty, likely to be dead by fifty.
Most or all of these children are working under some form of compulsion, whether from their parents, from the expectations attached to their caste, or from simple economic necessity. At least fifteen million of them, however, are working as virtual slaves.3 These are the bonded child laborers of India. This report is about them.”
The practice of child debt servitude has been illegal in India since 1933, when the Children (Pledging of Labour) Act was enacted under British rule. Since independence, a plethora of additional protective legislation has been put in place. There are distinct laws governing child labor in factories, in commercial establishments, on plantations, and in apprenticeships. There are laws governing the use of migrant labor and contract labor. A relatively recent law-the Child Labour (Prohibition and Regulation) Act of 1986-designates a child as “a person who has not completed their fourteenth year of age.”10 It purports to regulate the hours and conditions of some child workers and to prohibit the use of child labor in certain enumerated hazardous industries. (There is no blanket prohibition on the use of child labor, nor any universal minimum age set for child workers.)11 Most important of all, for children in servitude, is the Bonded Labour System (Abolition) Act, 1976 which strictly outlaws all forms of debt bondage and forced labor. These extensive legal safeguards mean little, however, without the political will to implement them. In India, this will is sorely lacking. All of the labor laws areroutinely flouted, and with virtually no risk of punishment to the offender. Whether due to corruption or indifference-and both are much in evidence-these laws are simply not enforced. In those rare cases where offenders are prosecuted, sentences are limited to negligible fines.”
Why does India-the Indian government, the ruling elite, the business interests, the populace as a whole-tolerate this slavery in its midst? According to a vast and deeply entrenched set of myths, bonded labor and child labor in India are inevitable. They are caused by poverty. They represent the natural order of things, and it is not possible to change them by force; they must evolve slowly toward eradication.12
In truth, the Indian government has failed to protect its most vulnerable children. When others have stepped in to try to fill the vacuum and advocate on behalf of those children, India’s leaders and much of its media have attributed nearly all “outside” attempts at action to an ulterior commercial motive. The developed world is not concerned with Indian children, this view holds, but rather with maintaining a competitive lead in the global marketplace. Holding to this defensive stance, some officials have threatened to end all foreign funding of child labor-related projects.
This nationalist rhetoric has been largely a diversionary tactic. What the government has hoped to hide is the news that, no matter how the data are analyzed, official efforts to end the exploitation of child laborers are woefully deficient“
“it is possible to end child servitude. The only thing lacking is will.”
“It is not poverty which prevents India from investing more in its children, but rather the prejudices and values of those who create and implement policy in India.3″
The government’s failure to enforce the Child Labour (Prohibition and Regulation) Act and the government’s failure to enforce the Bonded Labour System (Abolition) Act-not to mention the failure to enforce the several other laws protecting child workers-are twin manifestations of the same set ofphenomena. These phenomena include apathy, caste and class bias, obstruction of enforcement efforts, corruption, low prioritization of the problem, and disregard for the deep and widespread suffering of bonded child laborers…….From India’s top labor officials all the way down to the local level, where tehsildars (community leaders) use their influence to support the status quo, Human Rights Watch and other researchers have found a profound lack of concern for the plight of bonded and child laborers.”
Han
also
This is pretty serious paranoia, as tho’ every criticism is an enemy in the payroll of the bad-bad USA. If you believe you have enemies everywhere, even when you are prospering and doing well, then all I can say is that this is an unbalanced view. i cannot agree with it.
Anyway, thanks for responding to my questions, I do appreciate that courtesy.
from msm…British Prime Minister Gordon Brown will skip the opening ceremony of the Beijing Olympics.
He became the second major world leader after German Chancellor Angela Merkel to decide to stay away from the opening ceremonies, although Brown’s office insisted Wednesday that he was not boycotting the Olympics and would attend the closing ceremony.
French President Nicolas Sarkozy said last month that he was debating not attending the opening ceremony.
YEAH!
31 · Desidude said
Vyasa might well be a troll, and I can understand your being a tad upset at his/her comments, but do try not to drag us Bangladeshis down in your passionate defence of India. I don’t mean to suggest that we don’t have human rights abuses, but we’ve never seen anything like say, the Gujarat riots.
This is correct. The pictures and videos from Lhasa show a city that looks more modern and developed with a far better infrastructure than any Indian city or town, so China is certainly growing the economic pie in Tibet. The same cannot be said about the tibeto-burmese states under Indian occupation. The fact that the tibetan rioters and looters targeted stores and businesses owned not only by han chinese but also hui muslims shows that the root cause of their grievance is economic. Tibetan culture isnt very mercantile so the locals are losing the economic competition. China will probably have to implement some sort of affirmative action for ethnic tibetans to address their grievances.
True. The Dalai Lama has also ruled out independence for Tibet. He just wants some autonomy though which China is unwilling to relinquish.
Good anti Chinese and few anti US comments, our world is ruled by media, and most of them are run by big corporate CEO’s who in turn are mostly Westerners, u name it FOX, BBC, CNN on and on, well to cut it short media has agenda and that is West is Best, downplaying other countries is biggest ammunition in US arsenal and I bet they play it pretty well, India becomes target for human rights in Kashmir, Russia becomes target for being communist and locking up oil tycoons, Cuba is ugly due to Fediel castro and so called illicit drugs, let me clarify US has more human rights violations, go see Lancaster’s Loma Linda prison, these are the people who are in lock up for immigration violation, have you heard of china having prison only for immigration violations, read the following website http://www.ucpress.edu/books/pages/10041.php
Big frickin’ deal. I for one do not give a rat’s ass whether these western leaders avoid the opening ceremonies or not, as long as the show goes on. The Beijing Olympic Games is likely to be the most spectacular event in the history of mankind. It will be unforgivable if the West, out of sheer jealousy of China’s rise, somehow manages to ruin it for the rest of the world.
BTW, just the fact that such an unprecedented number of world leaders are planning to be in the stands for these Olympics shows how momentous this event is recognized as.
74 · Vyasa said
What about the time Marsha beat Greg in that driving contest with the egg? That was pretty cool.
I personally enjoyed the Tiananmen Square Massacre much more.
76 · Rahul said
how beorgoise. i prefer the cultural revolution.
74 · Vyasa said
Whether you mean spectacular in reference to its magnitude or literally in reference to the sensational and symbolic/ideological impact of the event, this is pretty over the top.
How is it over the top? Do you doubt that thanks to technology modern spectacles are more impressive than anything in history? China has shown that it can put on a helluva show as it did during the Hong Kong handover a decade ago. They will be going gang busters for the 3 plus hour opening ceremony in a hugely impressive brand new modernistic stadium. I fully expect this to be the most spectucular show of all time.
However, pollution is the one thing that could mar these games.
79 · Vyasa said
The world moved to contact lenses a couple of decades ago.
And everybody knows that just like omelets, you cannot make pies without breaking a few hands. And legs. And heads. And dispensing with any semblance of due process. And without being the world’s leader in executions.
The San Francisco torch relay was a spectacle all right!
Which, of course, brings you to that age old Taoist dilemma: If you throw a party so secret that nobody knows about it, does it count as a success?
Hey Rahul, maybe you should try to talk the chinese into using you as a clown during the opening ceremonies. Its not too late. Dressed in a red dhoti and nothing else, caste marks on your forehead, waving your spindly arms spastically, bobbing your coconut-oiled head, while cracking silly jokes incessantly in a high pitched voice, you could make the event even more memorable 🙂
69 · Al beruni said
Al beruni: I do not mean 80-90% of critics are foreign-funded — only that percentage of arrested activists who receive CNN-level coverage are. My estimate’s based on 10-15 years of empirical observation rather than mental illness.
Regarding media, the CIA has had a global purview going back to its early 1940s days. They operated globally in practically every country larger than Antigua by 1960. It’s also generally known that upon entering a country they aggressively build or buy media access. (See Color Revolutions where they often build a media infrastructure from naught to back a candidate. Ominously, this media infrastructure remains in place for future use.)
Personally I can’t consider this paranoia. It’s just how things work.
Yes Prema but do you still look like this?
Oh Vyasa, that sounds so tempting. But I think I’ll pass, I hear their caste marks have lead paint in them. And as you so astutely observed, the pollution there is the one teeny thing that’s a real bitch.
Dude you heard wrong, they dont make caste marks. They will let you bring your cow dung with you 🙂
I kid, i kid. Thank God Coca-Cola doesn’t make Orange Sesame Chicken!
Vyasa, you are so right! Given China’s flourishing child labor system (and this was just 2005, they’ve surely made even greater strides since!), an exploitative high-caste like myself should naturally feel at home with the similarly inclined communist overlords.
And I concede that you are a far better clown than I can ever aspire to be, so I won’t get in your way any more while you use this thread as an arena to demonstrate your incessantly hilarious view of the world.
80 · Rahul said
Heh, Heh, Heh. The 2-second-delay-before-you-get-it-jokes are the best.
As the originator of the request to Anna, I was keen to rally our bloggers into a united front of South Asians against Chinese crimes against humanity..However, I am saddened that the discussion has disintegrated into a self-involved, inward-looking discourse. The point here is to support a down-trodden peoples, namely the Tibetans. Yes, I did attend the rally and merged with various different groups of people from Team Tibet/Team Darfur/Team Burma…etc. I was aghast at viciousness of the Chinese supporters as they taunted and gloated in the midst of the peaceful protestors. I personally got shoved in the chest by a half-crazed China supporter for no reason other than being in his way. I also witnessed rude gestures used only by Team China. It was China’s aggressive behavior condensed into the American Chinese people. Shame, shame China. Shame, shame Gavin Newsome.
The Chinese supporters were very rude to the other protest groups, calling the Tibetans “slaves” etc. They outnumbered the Tibetans (given their population difference)
And yet, majority doesn’t always win. I think their whole strategy backfired because all I saw was Americans siding with the Tibetans and Burmese and Darfur-supporters, and telling the Chinese that they would boycott their products and “send them all back home”. A Black man came upto me and told me “there’s no getting through to these Chinese people. They just don’t understand”.
The mass media controls the sheeple, and it is not an Asian group that owns U.S. mass media. The same idiots could be incited against India on the issue of Kashmir with similar ease.
Elitist?,
I’m with you. I have an on-going full scale China boycott–not just the Olympics. I have been at the receiving end of Chinese (mainland Chinese) bigotry, xenophobia and racism for a long long time. I’m a Californian and a techie which means I have a lot of data and field research to support me. Btw, and I have posted this before on SM, I was once told by a Chinese professor that he didn’t want muslims in his lab. Like I said, I have a lot of stories and they are mos tly bad.
blockquote>China’s aggressive behavior condensed into the American Chinese people. Shame, shame China. Ten years ago in the SF Chinatown, I witnessed anti-Tibet, anti-India protests. I suspect a lot of the belligerent Chinese are from the mainland — the Chinese equivalent of DBD.
Translation: China has put in some modern infrastructure and moved in people from other regions to weaken the identity of Tibet so it can better be absorbed into China. The new modern conveniences are enjoyed by the immigrants with the Tibetans relegated to society’s fringe (like American Indians). So the Tibetans do not in fact benefit from Chinese development of the region.
Looks like we agree on the observable phenomenon, but you think this is a good thing while I think it’s not. What is the point of saying Tibet is being developed economically by China when the Tibetans are not benefiting economically, culturally, or politically? And as you do think this is a good thing, you must logically also support the US’s invasion “liberation” of Iraq. Unasked for, but done for the good of the invaded country, at least so says the oppressor.
Ashwani Batra
No China do not have immigration violations because no one migrates to China, people do however escape from China.
I had a very interesting experience at the protests in San Francisco. It’d be too much to post it here, because it is a tad too long.
So, I’ll plug my blog, and if you are interested to know what happened between an Indian and a few Chinese people today, read on
http://rakshan.blogspot.com/2008/04/observations-of-san-franciscan-pacifist.html
Who is more downtrodden: the tibetans in China or the untouchables, tribals, child slaves etc in India? Why dont indians like you ever get exercised over the far worse violations of human rights going on in India? I see desis like you joining white liberals in protests against the oppressions of palestinians, tibetans etc but not against the far worse oppressions that are endemic in India. Could it be because you think that the fairer skins of tibetans and palestinians somehow make them more worthy of your compassion than fellow desis? If so, you should be ashamed of your racial self-loathing. If not, what is the reason for this moral blind spot?
http://www.lewrockwell.com/reese/reese441.html
“Tibet was part of China for centuries. In 1913, when China seemed to be falling apart, the British Empire encouraged Tibet to declare its independence. It did, and that lasted until 1950, when, at the end of the Chinese civil war, China invaded and reclaimed the area. By then, the impotent British Empire was in no position to help anyone even if it had been so inclined. America chose to do nothing.
If you are not willing to make your way to the Tibetan plateau and face Chinese guns and prisons, then you certainly should not sit around some coffee shop and urge Tibetans to do so. Tibet is a strategic area of China, and the Chinese government is not going to give it up or grant it independence or even autonomy. To paraphrase a famous outlaw, it is enough that we know that China will do what it has to do.
As for us, we should do nothing. Tibet is part of China, and what happens there is an internal affair of China. The rest of the world has no right to interfere, and other than bloviating for a while, I seriously doubt that it will. Unfortunately, in this age of global communications even bloviating can cause bad things to happen to people.
Boycotting the Olympics is a foolish idea by a tiny minority of fanatics. The Olympics have nothing to do with Tibet, just as they had nothing to do with the Russian invasion of Afghanistan. Boycotting the games would be a cruel blow to athletes who have been sweating and training for four years. It would accomplish nothing. It would further politicize the games, which should be encouraged to return to their amateur status.
China was awarded the Summer Games in a fair international competition and has spent a lot of money getting ready for them. Any attempt to spoil the games will do a great disservice to the athletes, the Chinese government and the Chinese people. It will do nothing positive and will only harden attitudes and end up making the world even more dangerous than it already is.
Americans in particular should keep in mind that we are currently engaged in mismanaging two occupations of two countries that we illegally invaded. Neither enterprise is going well. Neither is our economy. In short, we have enough on our own plate without trying to steal a bite off of China’s plate. We should make sure that Afghanistan and Iran are the last wheezes of the sick American Empire and shut it down and return to our republic.
I don’t know why some Americans seem to have trouble realizing that the days of the European empires are over. Part of the problem is that we have way too many vocational intellectuals and way too few real intellects. A vocational intellectual is someone who makes a living writing or talking. Such people tend to live inside their heads. Delusions of grandeur and fantasies about the real world are constant occupational hazards for such people.”
82 · Vyasa said
Vyasa, the thought of Rahul in a red dhoti and nothing else, even my contact lenses are fogging up at the thought of this grand spectacle.
Anyhow, weighing in on this debate seemed like a waste of time because you obviously will not be intellectually honest with several people that have engaged with you despite your trolling. I cannot, however, get over the content of your argument. South Asians (diaspora or otherwise) do not protest China’s conduct in Tibet because of human rights violations in your backyard. It is more than likely the same subset of desis is equally opposed to India’s human rights problems, given their moral convictions. And since when is Tibet an ‘internal matter’ of China? You’re assuming that Tibet is a part of China (exactly the question which is being debated), and therefore, its dealings with Tibet are legitimate. And second, the status of Tibet is an issue vital to the consideration of Indian (security and geopolitical) interests in South Asia.
That’s nice. Countries should have continued to invest and continue business as usual in South Africa (apartheid was an internal matter after all). After all, they must have had their own domestic mess to contend with.
Confucius say foolish man never heeds own advice.
What you have done is conflate citizen protests with diplomatic tactics employed by governments as a matter of foreign policy. While the US and India could stay out of the controversy, their citizens could endorse/denounce China as per their conscience. Decide what you’re against: diplomatic sanctions, citizen protests, or both? And if you’re anti-citizen protests: Congratulations! Your tastes match China’s.
77 · Manju said
Oh, it’s hard for refined Rahul to give up his embroidery and tea parties.
97 · Vyasa said
You need to do some better research, because this is complete nonsense. Tibet was never historically part of China. In fact, parts China were owned by Tibet for some time. Only in 1949 did the PRC even officially declare that Tibet “had always been part of China”.