I disagree with Manish’s assessment; I actually thought Obama gave a very good speech on Tuesday. I do see the limitations: the tone and delivery was much more restrained than Obama’s earlier big speeches, so it’s not likely to bring him a new wave of supporters where he could use them most (i.e., here in Pennsylvania). But a soft and dispassionate tone was probably essential, as his primary goal was to distance himself from the unrestrained, over-the-top anger of his former pastor, Jeremiah Wright.
In contrast to Manish, I do feel that Obama did address the segments of American society who are not black or white, when he mentioned immigrants:
That anger is not always productive; indeed, all too often it distracts attention from solving real problems; it keeps us from squarely facing our own complicity in our condition, and prevents the African-American community from forging the alliances it needs to bring about real change.
But the anger is real; it is powerful; and to simply wish it away, to condemn it without understanding its roots, only serves to widen the chasm of misunderstanding that exists between the races.
In fact, a similar anger exists within segments of the white community. Most working- and middle-class white Americans don’t feel that they have been particularly privileged by their race.
Their experience is the immigrant experience — as far as they’re concerned, no one’s handed them anything, they’ve built it from scratch. They’ve worked hard all their lives, many times only to see their jobs shipped overseas or their pension dumped after a lifetime of labor. (link)
The rhetorical move here is intriguing — he starts by acknowledging the resentment of working- and middle-class whites (which is itself significant; it’s perhaps the first time I’ve seen a Democrat say anything like this). But in the final paragraph, he moves to include immigrants, and in some sense suggests that the resentment of whites might also overlap with the resentment of immigrants about things like affirmative action. (Certainly, I know many South Asians — and Asians, more generally — who are deeply opposed to Affirmative Action, so this rings true.)
A second reference to immigrants comes later in the speech:
But I have asserted a firm conviction — a conviction rooted in my faith in God and my faith in the American people — that working together we can move beyond some of our old racial wounds, and that in fact we have no choice if we are to continue on the path of a more perfect union.
For the African-American community, that path means embracing the burdens of our past without becoming victims of our past. It means continuing to insist on a full measure of justice in every aspect of American life.
But it also means binding our particular grievances — for better health care, and better schools, and better jobs — to the larger aspirations of all Americans, the white woman struggling to break the glass ceiling, the white man whose been laid off, the immigrant trying to feed his family.
This time, the reference is more purely sentimental: he’s talking about our shared experience of striving and struggle. But his choice of examples here is really telling as it reveals who he’s trying to reach: middle-class whites and immigrants.
In short, while this is primarily a speech about relations between blacks and whites, Obama does inject a “third” position into the mix, which might refer to Latinos, Asians, or other immigrants.
Just had to comment on this. The last thing the black community needs is more people taking community service jobs. Why should black people be the only ones not involved in investment banking, hedge fund management, and by extension, corporate law, for profit entrepreneurship, etc. I think its a bit disingenuous on a desi-American blog to prescribe these low paying, non wealth creating jobs to poorer people when people around here know full well that this community is full of people with these money making jobs. And its unlikely that will change.
Also, I resent the notion that people who are out to make money are always ignoble. You can make money and do good. In fact, the more money you have, the higher your ability to give back and make change. I can respect many liberal arguments, but this socialist nonsense is NOT helpful.
P.S. Obama and his wife are not hurting for money, so lets not pretend he made some great sacrifice.
Or that “no people anywhere has done more to lift up blacks than white Americans”
whether willingly or not, I doubt any people anywhere has paid more tax money to that cause than Americans of ALL COLORS paying taxes. Yet, there’s enough crazy stuff that people in power are doing in the full light of day, that Wright doesn’t sound that “crazy” to me. He does sound like he’s out for “his” people and the success of his church and his collection plates and his fancy schmancy way of life. I once knew a young black girl who was shocked out of religion at the sight of her pastor’s brand new Mercedes Benz. To be fair, the maharishi suckered a lot of westerners, Catholics should take a good look at the Pope’s lifestyle and Tammy Faye was once called on the carpet for keeping her eyelashes too long if i recall. If you’re running for president, you want to cozy up with the bridge builders, not bridge bombers. Buchanan preaches to his choir, as does Rev. Wright. There’s nothing new about self-inflating fantasies and paranoid ramblings (and just because you’re paranoid doesn’t mean they’re not after you). I once read a book about the Nazi party (lot of them in Utah0 and other fascist and communist groups in america during the 1930s and 1940s. It was a full time job for the embryonic pre-CIA to keep track of them. The book was written around 1945, and there was a black preacher claiming that the Japanese were of black African origin and that blacks should join them for victory over America. There’s a whole American Elmer Gantry gothic sub-culture of crazy preachers, black & white, in america. that’s one useful thing you learn studying american lit. Meanwhile, other black Americans were joining the newly Truman integrated armed forces. the crime issue, it’s gotten worse since the late sixties civil rights era as has the illegitimacy and drugs, though the drugs are mostly the fault of the CIA–they’re right about that conspiracy. Nobody is starving in country. Even the poor on welfare have tvs and cars, and don’t live much worst than those not on welfare. So they really don’t have an excuse for murder and the rest. The poverty excuse doesn’t work in this country. Nobody’s that desperate for the basics. The hate excuse does, though I think the hate is more than race.
And it doesn’t show signs of getting better no matter how much money is thrown at the problem. That’s what seems to get Buchanan’s knickers in a twist so tight he’s cross-eyed. Nobody in their right mind tells anyone they MUST be grateful. There’s no better way to make an enemy than to do them a favor. Basic psychology. Hate is taught by words and example.
95 · Rahul said
Haha.
101 · whoawhoawhoa said
Thank you. Someone finally understands my perspective.
98 · relieved dilettante said
Dilettante, while there is no accounting for tastes, Rahul’s might be a tad more agreeable after some pineapple juice.
94 · Vyasa said
First, I’m not an immigrant. Second, yea, you make the point that the poor are fatter in this country. But remember this,you don’t have the Gansta disciples popping a cap in your ass in the poorest villages of Bharat. You have that happening in the ghettos here in the U.S. That bolshevik (Michelle Obama)only started loving her country when Obama started winning primaries. I’ve heard people rail on me saying “oo, she’s black..give her a break.” She rose from rags to riches..come on man.
99 · Manju said
Not surprising, since Rahul’s always been the alpha
cock, uh rooster, around here 😉[PS: Rahul S, with a nom de plume like that you’re in danger of being the unintended recipient of innuendo :)]
104 · Rahul S. said
While making money is not ignoble, neither is a career in community service. And why is the enhancing social welfare (ie productivity and efficiency) always tied to conventional capitalism and markets? Markets (and governments as well) can be inefficient and rife with the wrong incentives (cf. health care) or bad equilibria (tragedy of commons wrt pollution), so a naive rah-rah corporate America approach is equally vulnerable to criticism as the worship of socialism.
Second, careers in community service may produce lots of social value that may not be captured by traditional accounting. For instance, the economic value of work done or welfare produced or productivity enhanced by stay-at-home parents is not included in the GDP. So while it apparently looks like a lot of value is being generated by investment bankers, the role of people who pursue careers in community service may turn out to be far more important in creating new economically productive units. eg case-worker who gets someone off drugs (reduces welfare payments or cost of rehab), or a doctor who works in rural/poor area (we do not account for the benefits she produces by averting disability in a community that would otherwise have worse health outcomes). Or imagine a high-school teacher who manages to inspire 5 kids to pursue careers in science. I suspect in these cases, we underestimate value addition into the economy using traditional measures.
While I do agree that the Obamas are not wanting for money, Michelle Obama’s argument is not prima facie unpersuasive. And people should be able to what they like, it’s very simple (and very much in line with classic liberalism). Something which impoverished kids (which includes many Black kids) are unable to do in the US, for a variety of reasons including under-performing schools. Maybe an idealistic young college grad could help with that? 🙂
That should read:
“And people should be able to do what they like, it’s very simple.”
93 · Manju said
Indeed, I was extrapolating, and there should have been an “I guess” heading up that sentence. Regardless, the intent of my statement was to highlight Buchanan’s flippant attempt to minimize the horror and impact of the slave trade, considering that he says the story ends with African Americans enjoying great freedoms and opportunity, and considering that the slave trade is, as he says, what brought them here in the first place. My own statement could easily follow such an argument, and in a certain sense is somewhat implicit in it. That was a completely vile and indefensible remark on his part.
107 · portmanteau said
you where right the 1st time port…he’s a dick. 😉
106 · Rahul S said
Maybe the poor in the villages of Bharat and the Black Hole of Calcutta don’t “pop caps in people’s asses” because
A.) why pop a cap when you can commit sati?
B.) There are no gun stores and liquor stores scattered exclusively in the poorest parts in Bharat.
C.) There’s NOTHING TO STEAL in the poor areas in Bharat, India…unless you want to rob somebody for their typhoid and dysentery.
D.) Many of the poor over there are too sick and weak to carry a gun, let alone being able to shoot it.
Please! Enough already! Stop watching “Boyz N The Hood” and BET videos for your research on black folks, and actually learn experiences from actual black people.
111 · Manju said
Manju, IMO, an upstanding member of the Sepia community is a more apt description 🙂
I’ve been trying to avoid this thread because it quickly devolved into a lot of screed, some of it blatantly racist.
dilettante — (re: our first exchange way upthread) we should have a long conversation offthread. I don’t think we’re actually that far off from agreeing 🙂
My god, how many times are people going to bring this up? Michelle Obama did not say she started loving her country when Barack started winning primaries. She was commenting on a phenomena that I definitely haven’t seen in my adult life — people coming out to vote in record high numbers, taking an active role (by donating, by campaigning, by talking about) in the presidential primaries, and sounding hopeful that presidential elections are not some hopeless machine where you get the same crappy candidates every time talking about the same BS topics. I think you have to look for something to be offended by to come up with this rationale. [Also, what makes her a “bolshevik” in your understanding? The fact that she has been, at times, disenchanted with her country? Her support of public service careers? Please exercise some common sense.]
I don’t even know why I’m arguing with you; 90% of what you’ve posted is rooted in a sense of outrage around wealth/the wealthy with the assumption that poverty = criminality, that somehow being poor in America is a joyride, and that the Obamas, by virtue of their current class status, are nefarious liars.
Jeez, people, the post was about how Obama handled the topics of race in his speech.
A.) why pop a cap when you can commit sati?
Sati?..How many sati’s happen in India today in a population of billion? Statistically insignificant.
B.) There are no gun stores and liquor stores scattered exclusively in the poorest parts in Bharat.
Liqor stores are scattered throughout the country…
C.) There’s NOTHING TO STEAL in the poor areas in Bharat, India…unless you want to rob somebody for their typhoid and dysentery.
More nonsense. The rich and the poor live side by side…as the poorest of slums are right next to ritzy skycrapers. In fact some of the poorest work in the houses of the richest. The wealth disparity is one thing tourist remark about.
D.) Many of the poor over there are too sick and weak to carry a gun, let alone being able to shoot it. Ever try to travel countryside in the dark in bharat . Dacoits probably bigger than the average US Indian.
Slavery was bad, just like living under Islamic rule was bad for hindus. However, no one alive today or his parents have ever owned a slave. It is not slavery that has resulted in 80% of black children being born bastards, or complete breakdown in family structure. It is not slavery that has resulted in something like 90% (its some astonishing high number)of all black men in DC of having gone through the prison system. It comes down to lack of personal responsibility, and liberal policies of blaming everything on society rather than the individual.
Another interesting thing that left is claiming that Wright was merely paraphrasing Edward Peck, the former ambassador. Wright delivered the sermon on September 16th and Edward peck did not appear on his so called Fox interview till October 5th. A review of script reveals that the phrase,. America’s chicken coming home to roost’ was not uttered by Edward Peck, but by Hussein Ibiz, the communications director at the American Arab Anti-Discrimination Committee…and he was just quoting Iraq’s statement. http://sweetness-light.com/archive/wright-credited-malcolm-x-for-chickens-line
116 · Vic said
Once again, you prove that you haven’t actually watched the larger videos. How is it possible that Reverend Wright was quoting Hussein Ibiz if he himself states clearly in the video that he is paraphrasing Edward Peck, only to have Edward Peck utter those same comments for the first time a month later (as per your story)? No one here has claimed that the “chickens” line was a direct quote from Peck.
115 · Vic said
While it would be absurd to place the entirety of the blame for crime and the lack of a “normal” family structure on society, if you really believe that slavery has absolutely nothing to do with them, then I’m afraid you’ve some learning to do. Why don’t you try talking to some African Americans and see how they feel about this (I’m assuming you really haven’t done this, as most I know would be completely offended and disgusted by your sentiment). The history of discrimination in this country and the way it is tied to the culture of many “black” neighborhoods is not a “liberal policy”…it’s a well-documented relationship and set of circumstances. This is exactly what Obama was trying to get across with one of the points in his speech. Take Wright’s case: he grew up in a legally segregated, racist America, where he was denied access to the superior facilities that were exclusive to whites. Do you not think that has anything at all to do with the way he feels about race?
Once again, you prove that you haven’t actually watched the larger videos. How is it possible that Reverend Wright was quoting Hussein Ibiz if he himself states clearly in the video that he is paraphrasing Edward Peck, only to have Edward Peck utter those same comments for the first time a month later (as per your story)? No one here has claimed that the “chickens” line was a direct quote from Peck.
You did not see the link as Edward peck never uttered anything like it.
Once again, you prove that you haven’t actually watched the larger videos. How is it possible that Reverend Wright was quoting Hussein Ibiz if he himself states clearly in the video that he is paraphrasing Edward Peck, only to have Edward Peck utter those same comments for the first time a month later (as per your story)? No one here has claimed that the “chickens” line was a direct quote from Peck.
you did not see the link as Edward peck never uttered anything like it. As far as linking black neighborhoods to slavery….the black neighborhoods are the way they are because of high crime and poverty that ultimately is caused by total lack of responsibility and breakdown of family structure. When you have 5 kids from 5 fathers, I don’t care what race you are..its going to end up as human failure. I have lived with 4 black roommates when I was in the army. All of them had a ‘baby’s momma’. One watched porn 24/7, and the other three just listened to mindless rap and entire existence was based on getting laid the next weekend. I don’t think I ever saw anyone pick up a book or a newspaper in my 12 months of living with them. Lets blame whitey and slavery for that.
120 · Vic said
Yaay..finally got the quote function to work
you did not see the link as Edward peck never uttered anything like it. As far as linking black neighborhoods to slavery….the black neighborhoods are the way they are because of high crime and poverty that ultimately is caused by total lack of responsibility and breakdown of family structure. When you have 5 kids from 5 fathers, I don’t care what race you are..its going to end up as human failure. I have lived with 4 black roommates when I was in the army. All of them had a ‘baby’s momma’. One watched porn 24/7, and the other three just listened to mindless rap and entire existence was based on getting laid the next weekend. I don’t think I ever saw anyone pick up a book or a newspaper in my 12 months of living with them. Lets blame whitey and slavery for that.
While I applaud the effort to actually go out and talk to black people about race relations in this country, I want to caution against holding this method of information gathering as a source of absolute truth.
1) Many of the people who you will likely end up talking to about this are either 1st or 2nd generation immigrants or members of the black middle class. Despite people’s desires (on both sides of the political spectrum) to lump black people together, there are substantial differences in attitudes between blacks in poverty and those in the middle class. Those in poverty often have self-sabotaging habits. Habits that are too frequently excused as results of racism by people in the black middle class. The reasons for this are too numerous to outline here…
2) There is an artificial imposition of liberalism on all black people. Many black people with more conservative views feel forced to keep quiet and adhere to the conventional logic and rationale. What black people are willing to share with outsiders isn’t necessarily representative of how black people actually see the world. This is how you end up with 45% of black people voting in FAVOR of the Michigan ban against affirmative action. Black people are not a monolith.
Yes, see people who are poor in America as human… that goes without saying. But let’s not infantilize them in the process.
118 · NYC Akshay said
Reverand Jeremiah Wright was brought up in Philadelphia (the North). The north wasn’t segregated, and he attended an integrated school. Yes, he might have faced racism as all of us have in our lives, but he wasn’t brought up in the south. He was able to use the same fountain as any white could.
115 · Vic said
You’re somewhat right on this. People ought to read Dinesh D’souza’s The End of Racism. It’ll make you think, and make some people change their perspective on race relations.
115 · Vic said
I think you need to stop going to stormfront.org in getting your facts on black people. Actually Vic, it’s more Jim Crow than slavery. It’s 70%, not 80%. Get your facts straight. In the US, slavery was much worse, simply for the fact that an entire race of people were forcibly had their religion, language and culture taken away. It was socially, legally and theocratically acceptable. Jim Crow was legal segregation that lasted until the late 60s or early 70s, depending on the state. But Islamic rule isn’t the result of child labor in India, nor the result of 300 million Indians living in extreme poverty. Take the wooden plank out of your eye, before commenting on the speck of dirt in mine.
125 · Huey said
Yes, slavery was a bad part of US history. Yes, the Jim Crow was bad as well. However, look at what other countries have done. Other countries have had a worse history on the issue of slavery than the U.S. I mean African countries used INDIANS as slaves, and Indians have been kicked out of countries such as Uganda. Do you think these guys had it rough? The British took Indian slaves to Trinidad, along with black slaves. Why do we see in these Caribbean countries that Indian people are more successful than Africans? It’s the culture. Indians tend to be hard working. Why do we see in places like Fiji (50% Indian, 50% indigenous popluation) Indians more successful. Once again, the culture. Those individuals living in a different environment (like with Indians living in different country like Trinidad) tend to retain their cultural characteristics. Dinesh D’souza argues yes, we’ll still retain our race color, but can’t we change our culture if it’s not suitable for the environment we’re living in. Isn’t this a better manner to help the African American community? Yes, they still will be black, but can’t we change the culture to help them assimilate into mainstream U.S. culture. Therefore, they won’t be alienated, and listening to some of the garbage coming out of Wright’s mouth. All the time I was being sarcastic on the threads above, but my message remained the same. Isn’t this a more productive manner to help the black community instead of blaming whitey? I think so. Even though what I wrote may be a little dicey, it’s the best way to achieve the American dream.
Indians were taken as indentured servants rather than slaves for the most part which is why circa 1800s Bihari culture still lives in Trinidad. African families were ripped apart when they were sold off as slaves. Don’t know why but it seems almost acceptable these days for Irish & Indians to equate indentured servitude with slavery. I disagree with “South Asianists” when they completely dismiss the positive roll of Hindu culture in creating successful communities in hostile environments like S. Africa, but there is a flip side to it. In Hindu culture it is true that education is a sacred gift, but this view made it off limits to the “spiritually unclean”. This is why you have small communities of world reknowned intellectuals and vast amounts of illiterates in India. I disagree with liberals when they rationalize or celebrate “gangsta” culture, but let’s be honest about the source of these destructive behaviors.
Looking ahead, I just hope we do not have a repeat of Gore/Bush and the recounts with Obama/McCain (Hillary is out of it). If that’s the case, I can see riots, and neighborhoods burning…sort of like a national Rodney King, if the recount do not go the Obama way…
whoawhoawhoa@ 122: Thanks for the poignant response. My intention was to suggest that Vic gain a wider understanding of the inherent complexity of the black community, being that very few people I know (including black conservatives) enjoy having the entire community painted witn a single stroke, but I was struggling to keep my post short as it was.
Vic: My point seems to have been lost on you. If you read my earlier post, you’ll see I am not suggesting that slavery and Jim Crow are responsible for every single black problem, but that they do play a role…one which should not be ignored. Jim Crow is what set up black communities to be disadvantaged economically and in terms of opportunity, thus helping in part to foster much of the culture in those communities, since slavery deprived them of their older traditions. To attempt to solve the problem of violence, one must consider the individual choices as well as the social factors, rather than pretending that free choice exists entirely apart from the social.
Rahul S: I have personally heard Wright speak about witnessing the horrors of segregation and vicious racism as a child. Regardless of the school he went to, the fact remains that most of the country was still segregated, legally or otherwise, just as it is now. He spoke of travelling and witnessing the blatant inequalities between the white and black facilities and institutions. That certainly has an effect on someone growing up. I mean, the country as a whole hasn’t even been legally desegregated for more than about a half century yet… Don’t you think it’s reasonable to make a connection between that and the current conditions of black communities? Also, Indians in Africa and the Caribbean were brought over as indentured laborers, not slaves (not trying to sugarcoat their experiences) and specifically in the Caribbean, had a bit more opportunity than the recently freed black slaves, such as the chance to return home when their work was complete. They also did not have their culture forcibly removed from their communities in the same way the blacks did.
Rahul S: I have personally heard Wright speak about witnessing the horrors of segregation and vicious racism as a child. Regardless of the school he went to, the fact remains that most of the country was still segregated, legally or otherwise, just as it is now. He spoke of travelling and witnessing the blatant inequalities between the white and black facilities and institutions. That certainly has an effect on someone growing up. I mean, the country as a whole hasn’t even been legally desegregated for more than about a half century yet… Don’t you think it’s reasonable to make a connection between that and the current conditions of black communities?
I don’t know much about Wright’s background, but just b/c you lived in the north didn’t mean jim crow didn’t exist, did it? It was in the north too, wasn’t it? I just saw the doc on Thurgood Marshall, who lived in baltimore and he experienced jim crow and racism there and it was, relative to that time, a pretty integrated city. When he got older he couldn’t even apply to Univ Md. Law school (which is where he wanted to go and he lived very hear) b/c it didn’t allow blacks (is MD considered ‘north”, b/c to me it is) and instead had to travel very out of the way for him, and attend Howard in DC. So I don’t think growing up in Penn would take away a lot from the apartheid and infereior choices blacks had to contend with…And god forbid you’d want to actually go on vacation in Fl or something. What a world that must have been…I can’t imagine living in America, where crossing state borders would have such a direct impact on my civil and human rights.
Philadelphia, just because it was in the North, isn’t free of racist history. It had a lot of racial problems in the 20th century.
interesting thread and comments. just one thing: I could be wrong, but though Michelle Obama may have gone to Princeton and Harvard, I don’t think she led a “privileged” existence prior to those events. AFAIK, she grew up poor.
NYC Akshay…what liberals provide to african americans is a drug. The drug is a convenient excuse for failure, and easy welfare money. Its easy to get hooked on this drug, and the drugdealers..i.e the liberal politicians keep them hooked so they can get their votes.
What conservative offer them is much more bitter. It asks them to be responsible for their action, work against odds and be successful like the koreans, vietnamese, arabs etc. etc. all who have come here without knowing english or much capital, but belief that sacrifice and hardwork will get them ahead. There is always going to be racism, and if you are looking for excuses for failure, you have already failed. However, asking people to work hard and be responsible is now countered by accusation of racism and retread lectures on slavery and Jim crow…..
The so call war on poverty…how many trillions has been spent and are the blacks any better than they were in the 60’s. You only have to look at Democrat ruled cities of Detroit, DC, Newark , NJ to see how terrible liberal policies are. The answer is not to throw even more money, but to promote self responsibility and hard work. Midnight basketball to keep thugs away from drugdealers is not the answer…neither is advising oral sex to thwart off teenage pregnancy (by a former Clinon appointee).
Rahul, after all the cakes and marmalades and ices, was it worth it, was it worth it after all, to force your identity theft to a crisis? You are no prince Hamlet, but you are inimitable!
After two Holi parties with like-minded uncles and aunties – HAPPY HOLI, EVERYBODY – I am all Obama’d out. But I will say this much – he is mortal, ain’t he?
I did read most of the thread but missed one interpretation of the Obama-Wright controversy that I thought would come quite naturally to you ABD “bachhas” and “bachhis” because it is an undeniable part of your life. It is called cultural baggage. I am sometimes the baggage, the Reverend Wright to my 15-year old, oh-so-cool, high school daughter. She can’t disown me. She can only try to explain me away to her other cool constituents. The Obama-Wright relationship, in my mind, was nothing more serious than the cultural baggage most ethnic groups have to schlepp once in a while. It’s just too bad that it is fast becoming his political liability.
127 · louiecypher on March 23, 2008 03:13 PM · Direct link · “Quoteâ€(?) “Indians were taken as indentured servants rather than slaves for the most part which is why circa 1800s Bihari culture still lives in Trinidad. African families were ripped apart when they were sold off as slaves.”
Good point, but Trinidadian Indians don’t cut blacks any slack over this. Their contention is that indentured or not, the living conditions and employee relations in the post-slavery British empire was no better. But what they forget is that the terms of employment were vastly superior for the indentured laborers. They were on contract. They were not owned like cattle.
While not very well read in social anthropology, I do feel that races have a collective consciousness and, therefore, the legacy of slavery is a legitimate problem for blacks. How else would you explain the social and economic woes of blacks in Trinidad, a country where they are not only the majority but the “race in power?” (I have been married to a Trinidadian for 35+ years and visit my “sasural” with great frequency. I know the culture.)
So based on your roommates we are supposed to conclude that all blacks, including the millions of professionals and entrepeneurs, thousands of sports and entertainment stars, pastors, military officers etc, are just hopeless, unambitious losers who never read a book and who always blame whitey for their failures? Get real. You sound like you have been hanging out at Stormfront.
Again, you are acting as if blacks in America are all abject failures. Last time I checked black americans have reached higher political and military positions than arabs or asians or hispanics. The most successful sportsman in America, the most prominent and influential TV personality, the most popular Hollywood movie star and now the most impressive political leader are all black americans. No arab or asian or hispanic has made it to the Supreme Court but two black americans have. Ditto for Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, Secretary of State, National Security Adviser and so on. There have been black CEOs of large american corporations including the CEO of one of the largest investment banks in the world (Merril Lynch); black governors and mayors; black presidents of prominent universities; hugely successful enrepeneurs and on and on.
Obama objected to Wright’s racial statements on the basis that he assumed that race relations in America were static when in fact it is undeniable that opportunities for blacks in America have increased dramatically since the 1960s and numerous black americans have taken full advantage of this. America’s greatest strength may be the ease with which it can change as circumstances change. We may be on the cusp of another historic change. God knows that America needs a big change in direction right now, for a perfect storm is brewing and the ship is in danger of sinking.
133 · Vic said
I’m sorry that you feel that way, but I don’t think people working hard and the awareness of racism have to be mutually exclusive. Also, telling someone to work hard and ignore racism altogether can be difficult, since racism really can affect people’s lives in significant ways that prevent them from succeeding. For example:
“Blacks search for work longer and often more aggressively than whites and are 36-44% less likely to be hired for jobs even when they are just as qualified. White males with a high school diploma are as likely to have a job and earn as much as black males with college degrees. When controlling for age, experience, and other relative factors, blacks are paid at least 10% less than whites. (Alice O’ Connor.”Urban Inequality: Evidence from Four Cities.” NY: Russell Sage Foundation.)
“Black students who show potential equal to or above that of whites are 40% less likely to be placed in advanced or accelerated classes and 2.5 times more likely to be placed in remedial or low-track classes. (Jeanie Oakes, 1985. Keeping Track: How Schools Structure Inequality. Yale University; and Rebecca Gordon, 1998. Education and Race. Oakland: Applied Research Center)”
Rahul_S:
This is as irrational and ignorant as Vic’s arguments. If indian culture is responsible for indian “success” in Fiji and the Carribean why is India itself (with no africans or fijians to hold it back) so much poorer, so much hungrier, so much more miserable than Fiji and the Carribean nations?
Why are the wealthiest nations in the caribbean the ones with the fewest indians?
Why is Guyana with its large indian majority one of the poorest nations in the Americas?
Why are the indian hindus of Malaysia the poorest and weakest section of that society and also the most likely to end up in prison?
Floridian #134 & 135:
For a person who (if my impression is correct) is not an Obama supporter, those are thoughtful comments.
Just the other day, I said to a friend that our children seeking high office some day, might have to defend, explain, reject and denounce our prejudices. Sweeping stereotyping of Indians will be painful to watch.
Another aside, I have seen it mentioned on several threads the intended or unintended put down felt by us on having our names mispronounced. Think of the humiliation felt by generations of blacks on hearing their dads and grandpas being addressed as “boys.” That wasn’t too long ago in the past.
That’s because of discrimination from Malays.
Not my battle, but I will interject anyway. I think this is a false representation of what Vic seems to be saying. Vic may think this applies to ALL black people, but I get the feeling that he’s just providing anecdotal evidence for some pathological behavior he has seen first hand. And if that’s his experience, I don’t think you can just write that off. I know black people in poverty and who are middle class and above who have great family values. BUT, I think we do a disservice to people who are exhibiting these behaviors (and trust me, I know a whole lot more of those) to pretend that this doesn’t exist. Or even that it doesn’t happen in large numbers when it does. If people can’t honestly discuss and assess an issue, how can they expect to find real solutions?
I’m going to parse your next paragraph in terms of how I see it. the DISCLAIMER is that I don’t think that the black community is full of failures or even that none of these things are accomplishments. The point is just to show that even within these successes, there is an issue of inequality.
Isn’t this a function of time? And unfortunately, ambitious affirmative action policies and redistricting efforts?
Every one of the people mentioned are in the entertainment industry. Black people have been at the top of this industry throughout American history. While this is great, when do Black people move past getting paid for what they do and into fields where they are paid for what they know? And isn’t it interesting that part of Obama’s appeal seems to be how “non-typically” black he appears to be? Where are all the black surgeons and investment bankers and engineers, etc.? THAT is the kind of success that I think Vic is appealing to. Success in those arenas will indeed require a bit of bitter conservative medicine.
NYC Akshay, I think we need to realize that there is often a tremendous skills gap between black and white graduates. Having a HS diploma from a terrible school is often meaningless. It is interesting that the researcher controls for age, experience, etc. but does not mention a control for skill sets. I agree with you on the tracking thing though. A lot of black and latino kids are set up for failure from the start in these schools.
138 · Vyasa said
India is culturally diverse. Hindus, Muslims, Christians all living together in large numbers. Plus, there’s a large population. Look at the Tiger countries (Taiwan, Singapore, Japan, etc). How did these countries do so well? (1) Embrace an outward oriented policy following WWII (allow foreign investment to flow in). (2) These countries had a homogenous population.
Let’s analyze India. (1) Too diverse in various regards. I am not being racist, but Muslims represent the majority of the poor in India (in terms of %). http://www.newstatesman.com/200708020027 150 million poor Muslims, 160 million poor Hindus, then some Christians. Being too diverse causes too much tension (especially between Hindus & Muslims). Look at homogenous populations, and see that these countries tend to be successful. (2) India adopted a fabian socialistic structure under Nehru. This means that Bharat didn’t allow that much foreign direct investment. This set them apart from Gandhi’s vision, and also sent them behind. Only, until 1991, our man Singh, promoted an outward oriented policy, allowing more foriegn direct investment to flow in. That’s why we see India’s economy improving. China beat bharat to this in the 70’s, when they promoted this outward extended policy. That’s why China is ahead of India right now.
(3) India has a large population.
141 · whoawhoawhoa said
It’s true that skill sets are important. In fact, there was a third statistic I had originally pasted in, specifically about population dispersion and school funding, but I thought it might make the post too long. Of course, since I am posting again, I suppose I might as well have posted it anyway. I definitely agree with you there.
In the job quote, I’d like to think the “just as qualified” would account for skill sets, (for the first statistic), but of course, I can’t be sure. I do have a few statistics somewhere about black and white graduates from the same school, with similar resumes, and the inequality therein as far as job seeking, but I haven’t been able to find those yet.
The last thing the black community needs is more people taking community service jobs. Why should black people be the only ones not involved in investment banking, hedge fund management,.
141 think we need to realize that there is often a tremendous skills gap between black and white graduates. Having a HS diploma from a terrible school is often meaningless..And unfortunately, ambitious affirmative action policies and redistricting efforts?
So based on the demographics of the black people M.Obama was directing her comments to was she correct in advising them to get jobs as teachers , nurses , social service ? last I checked most these jobs required more than a HS diploma,and would hopefully have a positive impact on some of the pathologies within the black community that no one [black or otherwise] is attempting to deny exist. If someone from that group did end up at a hedge fund wouldn’t you denigrate that as an obvious product of ambitious affirmative action? Consistency please.
Yes we are. We can vote now and everthing (Voting rights Act was passed in 1965) In fact there’s a black guy running for President. A lot of Americans,and other countries are really impressed at the amount of progress we, as a nation, have made.
You and Pat Buchanan should be honest enough to admit that its no way that only black people benefited from ‘the war of poverty’,food stamps programs ,head start or ‘general welfare’ programs. According to this 36% of participants in head start are “white” 25% black. News flash not all “white people” live the ones in TV land.
Put in context:
link
These programs are not just for black people, whereas the wrongs some of them were enacted to address were definitely done only to black people. I’m not an apologist for all large govt programs but it’s disingenuous to pretend that only black people benefit from them. Do only black people benefit from billion dollar govt subsidies to Farmers? Or were those subsidies for all “American” farmers? We know in fact,that black farmers were systematically denied loans and other programs white farmers had access to . This case just went to trial in 1999. The NYT
At any rate itis time to move on,I’m not blaming any random white person for something that happened 10 or a 100 years ago,but likewise I would like my individuality to be respected as well. The question of Obama’s speech, and to all Americans now is how do we move forward. There are some multi generational problems in many underclass black families. I tutored/mentored in such an environment thru a faith based intuitive. Some would see that as “indoctrination”. In light of the very high numbers for young single black mothers, I have no problem with sex ed being taught in schools.
What many people find refreshing about Obama is that he seems to be a pragmatist about solving problems without couching everything in played out terms of a culture wars. Not this time. For those willing to hear that,in his speech, it came out loud and clear.
In fact there’s a black guy running for President. A lot of Americans,and other countries are really impressed at the amount of progress we, as a nation, have made.
A Kenyan-American is running for President ;). Anyway, Obama, does indeed have global appeal:
“In France, said Mr. Herbert, Mr. Obama is seen as “being one of us, a foreigner. They don’t just see a black candidate; they see him as being able to identify with the outside world, as someone who understands how Europeans and the rest of the world view America, as being able to bridge that gap.â€
http://www.theworldwantsobama.org/
PS – Didn’t mean to spam #146, sorry. First time poster.
147 I was trying to quote dilettante. Oops. I’m an Obama supporter because of his “tough talk” on Pakistan (perhaps posturing). I’m one of those idealistic youngsters who believes Obama can make a change — American foreign policy (the “non-typical” white american view of the world) and end white dominance (corporate) in this country! yay!
Obama/Richardson 08 or Obama/Woman 08 (Claire Mccaskill (Missouri); Kansas women governor; Nancy Pelosi).
Yes we can! Lets get those Pakistanis! ;).
You’re reaching. But yes, if the assumption here is that the black people she was addressing were already wealthy, I do think she is wrong to go to the small number of black professionals the black community has to draw this false dichotomy between doing well and making money. Had she said “hey, some of you can go the money route, but be also need people in the community” I would be less hostile toward her remarks.
What is the relevance of them having more than a HS diploma? I didn’t say these jobs weren’t for degreed people, I was focusing on the fact that they don’t provide real opportunities for wealth development. As far as their effect on black pathologies… the black community has been focusing on community development projects for decades with college educated blacks most frequently getting these types of jobs (except law, black people seem to still be convinced that this is the civil rights era). Yet using many statistical measures, blacks are actually losing ground precipitously compared to what things were before the civl rights movement. Is it maybe time for a new strategy?
Your affirmative action comment is specious. First, some jobs control for skill more than others. Investment banking, surgical work, high level physics and engineering jobs etc. are highly performance based. Affirmative action can’t mask a lack of skills in these professions… which is part of why there aren’t as many black people in them. And second, just because Aff. Act. is overly ambitious now doesn’t mean it needs to be at all times in the future.
147 · test said
Um. Tough talk on Pakistan? I can’t see that happening. The country would destabilize if the US started acting tough on them. Plus, if you look at history, no US president has been tough on Pakistan, while US presidents have given bharat more crap over the years. The only thing we could probably do is place more troops along the Afghan & Paki border. Please, Nancy Pelosi as the vice president. Are you kidding me? This lady is a liberal nut-job. Obama/Richardson or Obama/Clinton would be the best bet.
@Rahul S:
Don’t want to hijack this thread into US policy on Pakistan. All I’m going to say– we should send troops into the tribal areas of Pakistan (defintely not the metros–Karachi, Rawalpindi, Islamabad) not just the Afghan-Pak border.
Regarding possible VPs for Obama, an Obama-Clinton will never happen. Once Hillary loses in June, the liberal/moderate (white) women are gonna be pissed; and stay home or vote for McCain on election day. He should choose a woman or latino as VP (two groups he’s lagging behind in support). McCain will get the white man vote by a wide margin. Pelosi may be a liberal nut-job but she is a ‘high-profile’ woman in the democratic party and could help him get at least some of those 12.7 million people voting for Hillary.