In the past, I was somewhat snarky when it came out that Aishwarya Rai, before her marriage to Abhishek Bachchan, agreed to marry a Peepul tree because of her “Manglik” status. 
The New York Times had a story recently (thanks, Jamie), which described how Aishwarya Bachchan recently dropped out of a Hollywood project with Will Smith in order to be home in Mumbai to celebrate Karva Chauth.
For those who don’t know, Karva Chauth is a traditional Hindu festival where wives fast for a whole day without food or water as a symbol of their devotion to their husbands. I have many women friends who object to the festival as regressive, though I also know one or two people who do observe it out of a sense of loyalty to tradition. (Perhaps not too surprisingly, the women I know who observe it are NRIs, not ABDs. Are there any ABDs out there who observe Karva Chauth?)
Here is the quote the NYT gives regarding Aish’s decision to return to Mumbai for Karva Chauth:
Ultimately Ms. Bachchan chose to return to Mumbai and starve with a smile. National television channels covered her first Karva Chauth as headline news. Two months later she shrugged off her loss in an interview. “You do what you have to do,†she said. “Feeling torn and thereby unhappy, confused or guilty is not something I want to feel. So you make your choices and go with it. You get some and some you don’t.†(link)
What to say. From what I can tell, everything Aish does outside of her acting seems to reflect a pretty sincere traditionalism. One has to presume she’s observing Karva Chauth because she really wants to, not because anyone put pressure on her to do so. So, if we accept that the festival of Karva Chauth isn’t inherently sexist (and the case can be made that it is), here I’m inclined to give props to Aish for putting tradition over her career. It certainly beats America’s celebrity culture — which has lately just been depressingly bad, what with Britney losing her mind, and Amy Winehouse smoking crack…
On the other hand, the Indian media loves this kind of thing, so it may be that sacrificing a romantic comedy with Will Smith might actually help her Bollywood career — and she can have both. Jodhaa Akbar, anyone?
Apparently, that dose of austerity comes with a healthy heaping of contempt for other cultures and a serving of patronization too.
Don’t worry, Divya. Mormons with their magic underwear and the Old Testament with its proscriptions against spilling of seed have had their conceptions of discipline too. Ve Vesterners can control our urges too.
If the austerity of Hindu myth is going to be folded into all of current Indian culture, surely the protestant work ethic and compulsion to charity are inherent parts of Americana?
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The fee structure for advancing in the ‘faith’ is a fairly large difference–all the tithing and zakat in the world won’t get you to Scientology levels of bleeding the wallet for Hubbard Subsidies. That and how vague they tend to be–ever seen the infamous Tom Cruise ‘insiders-only’ video?
Of course xtianty has (had?) that same code of austerity running through their ethos. It’s the liberal idea of liberation that was the target of the post. Rahul, I welcome criticism, but if all you want to do is show off how witty you are, I’m just going to ignore your posts.
99 · Divya said
No, I was raised in the desh; and my ideas about liberty and freedom come from the Bhagvad Gita + Sufism as much as they come from Thoreau, Locke, and Merton. I’m not parochial about where I find good ideas (I think). As I said physical austerity is often a marker of discipline (which is as much a part of the Indian ascetic tradition as it of many other religious orders), but sometimes it may just be an indicator of adherence to dogma or plain conformity because of the fear of standing out. I think my comment is clearly not a blanket condemnation of karva chauth:
If one undertakes activities of strict discipline without putting forth a good rationale, one’s impulse control and perseverance are praiseworthy, but little can be said about moral capabilities. If X can keep up her lent sacrifice or ramadan fasts, but be an otherwise vile person, how can I praise her character? This was the point of my comment, which escaped you completely. Other acts of discipline, say taking cold showers to minimize energy consumption or refraining from purchasing anything unnecessary or using only public transportation to commute or even religiously-motivated acts of charity or consciously trying to be nice to hubby on an everyday level are better indicators of moral worth, IMO.
And examples of my nerdiness abound – but pray tell, how do you know about my greed? Or my endorsement of gratuitous sex and drugs? Certainly, I do not want the likes of you to be high and copulating. If only for the sake of the planet. I’m certainly working on reducing my carbon footprint. As should everybody. oh yeah, and my idea of liberation is walking around au naturel in the house, sans pants. i’m uber-liberated 😛
like the naga sadhus, i might add.
I thought it was pretty funny.
Maybe you are unable to see my point since it is masked by my searing wit, but feel free to do whatever you want. Your broad caricatures of American conspicuous consumption, and exaltation of Indian austerity (have you seen anything about India’s growing carbon footprint, or the ostentation of gold jewelry in Indian ceremonies?), neither of which are accurate, are what I was taking aim at.
Well, Hindu temples effectively determine who their trustees are, and who gets most influence in the temple affairs based on their contributions and ostentation. I don’t know about Christianity, but influence there is again to the big contributors and the wealthy, not to the poor and abandoned.
Yeah, I saw that. I watched only the first 3 minutes or so, but then I was too bored and stopped watching. Seemed no different than any other doctrinaire follower in any other religion.
Cruise said they are the only ones that can help accident victims, not that they actually help (as some have noticed, this was a reference to the infamous vid). Irrespective…
I know about ID, creationism, jihad etc etc. I don’t personally believe in religion. However any of the religions you highlight has a wealth of sound advice. The recentness of scientology counts against it. These religions were probably just as full of tosh when they started, but over the years they have evolved to contain much good stuff. Admittedly it’s alongside a great deal of bad advice, but that’s not my point. My point is Scientology has none of the good advice and all the loonery. I’ve researched it quite a bit for a series of articles I wrote. Scientology is more comparable to a cult, not a religion. And don’t think it does no harm, at least two people have died when scientology told them they should not be taking their medicine.
*addendum – I accept that in a few centuries scientology might evolve to how mainstream religions are viewed today, but I maintain it is a different kettle of fish at present. So in a way, we’re agreed Rahul/Vikram.
You’re right, searing wit does tend to get in the way of a good discussion but it could be I’m generally dumb. My post was simply a response to the one-dimensional idea of liberation that seemed to run through this thread. If people who follow tradition are cast as backward, I think it is legitimate to heap contempt in return on those who happen to think so. Besides, my post is in defense of tradition so naturally it will highlight its strengths. I still don’t see you making any real point other than grumble that I am exalting tradition and caricaturing its opposite.
Please don’t think I mean to say austerity is all there is to life. By all means people should pile on the jewelry, as long as they don’t lose all else that’s worthwhile in the process.
Comments about regressive aspects of tradition that are often imposed asymmetrically on one sex will highlight that, not talk about carbon footprints and walking around in pants (???).
Exactly. If you want to justify the observance of karva chauth as people here have reasonable done, that’s one thing, but yes, I take issue with broad based and incorrect caricatures.
111 · Divya said
A rail against tradition was not made in any of my posts. Neither was any concept of liberty forwarded. You chose to make a straw-man of my position by attributing your own caricature of views on to me (“your narrow-minded conceptualization of liberation extends only as far as the freedom to wear the pants in the house for example, or drink and date at will”). Nobody was condemned for adhering to traditional mores – what was criticized was insufficient self-examination or a lack of cognizance of the rationale of the ritual being performed (which btw, is a huge component of Indian rituals – several ceremonies are beautiful and thoughtful embodiments of moral commitments or expressions of gratitude to nature or god eg saraswati puja). As was undeserved praise for AR when she only made a choice that thousands of hard-working Indian women make.
i suggest you stop dishing out what you yourself cannot stomach.
You don’t really do that, I hope??!!
two … doesn’t sound that bad when you consider that millions have been killed by the practitioners of the major religions being practiced today in the not too distant past.
Let’s count the worldwide distribution and gross profit of Will Smith’s movies versus Aishwarya Rai’s movies. Will Smith averages way over $100 million PER movie (more than Tom Hanks!), not to mention that his movies are much more widely seen than any of her movies are– plus, add in the fact that the man is a Grammy-winning musician AND producer. Aishwarya Rai is extremely lucky if she even bags half as much.
-Aishwara is a horrible actress and has no range. She doesn’t come close to being as successfull as Will Smith. She has never attempted to do any serious and challenging movies like Madhuri Dixit (Marithy Dand) Or Manisha Korila (Dil Se). She is just a pretty face. I doubt she’ll be doing much acting onces gravity kicks in.
Also, I am not sure if any other girls experince this but time to time, guys (non indian) ask me if I am Indian and proceed to say the following “You know that Indian actress, Aishwayra, she is HOT.” Since that is a bit insulting because I don’t look anything like her (super pale and green eyes) I would much perfer being told, “Are you Indian? I love Indian food! Samosas are great”.
114 · rob said
ha, i wish i could. i’m slowly starting to cut down on hot shower time. it’s my huge vice. i was much better in india and never use the shower at home there when i do go back. only the old-fashioned bucket-and-mug bath, which everyone thinks is very declasse. saves a lot of water though. oh yeah, and since i’m threadjacking, i may as well say it. using cold water cycles for doing laundry saves a fair bit of energy when aggregated, and doesn’t harm your clothes in the least. i feel like greenzo from thirty rock 🙂
115 · Vikram said
98 · Rahul said
Like I accepted, scientology might well be in the fledgling phase that other religions started with. But let’s not paint it as harmless. I’m not defending major religions per se, I’m just elucidating as to why I see scientology as different to Christianity, Islam, Judaism, Hinduism, Buddhism, Sikhism etc etc. However I sense this is straying from the point of the thread, so I’ll go to bed.
Because you DO taste like a samosa?
Whew, ok–I get the concept(s), but someone who actually did those things (in some sort of a hardcore way) would be a bit scarily unworldly!!
yeah, those examples are found basically in tales that highlight ascetic achievement. as i child, for instance, i used to find accounts of the sufi saint rabia highly disconcerting for the reason you just articulated.
rob, the wikipedia entry on rabia is a good taste of those stories. you can imagine how vivid these tales can be in a child’s mind. and how profoundly inadequate and indisciplined they can make you feel.
I don’t taste like a samosa but I do love them. Also, I would rather spend 3 hrs eating samosas than watching a movie with Ash R.
Conclusion Samosas + n > Aishwayra; n>1
I don’t really believe in God nor could I really appreciate what seeing the Ka’ba to a devout Muslim, but this story I think totally captures the point I was trying to make in re mindless asceticism. no more from me on this, unless in response to something.
Could you explain this a bit? I’m not really seeing the point–not trying to be thick, but I’m probably missing some background assumption(s). . . .
But why must people understand the rationale of a ritual? Most kids have contempt for ritual but when they have their own kids they begin to appreciate and value ritual, without still developing any understanding of it. In fact, ritual does not have any meaning. Meaning is tacked on to ritual, stories are spun,etc. – curious minds need to be satisfied after all. But the only worthwhile thing to ritual is the practice of it. It makes no difference if you know that flowers signify beauty and rice signfies prosperity, and a piece of thread signifies a bond. It does make a difference if you fast, stick to a schedule, or otherwise diligently perform some “meaningless” act. Most of the pujas are simple adorations. An understanding of the words does not help. Repeated puja may however end up inculcating a loving attitude.
Also, self-examination cannot be everyone’s road to happiness. For some it is the only way – and most people on SM would probably fall in this category. But to hold that cognizance of the rationale behind one’s practices is necessary actually becomes an elitist stance – specially if you go about thinking that those who lack this capacity fall short in some way. In actual fact they may be far better adjusted and better able to cope with life – just from doing those “dumb” rituals.
just that signs of being observant or displays of extreme physical abstention are not always the best indicators of moral worth/uprightness/piety/courage.
you seem to have read a lot of western philosophy – so i bring this up, in case you’re already familiar with it. Nietzsche makes a similar criticism of asceticism in his ‘On the Genealogy of Morals’ (which I think he takes too far at times because he is too preoccupied with building a case of condemning religion, making his analysis a little bit one-sided). he does give a nice account of why asceticism makes the individual feel powerful.
Totally agree with this. Also, the demons and the gods both perform the same austerities in hindu myth in order to develop powers, so clearly moral uprightness is not a given.
Yes, ok, I see that–and, deeply true point! I think I hold that view in a deeply internalized way (not sure what my source is, exactly, though your Nietzsche reference is cert. a possibility)–I mean, when I saw people criticize John Edwards (or, before that, Bill Clinton) for getting an expensive haircut, I would always think–wouldn’t it be much more scary if he got a cheap haircut–I mean–that sort of zealotry (faux poverty, for example) is all too often tied up with Pol Pot types killing people with eye-glasses for being “too elite” or “too westernized”!! No thanks.
regular practice does provide a certain comfort to people – i don’t deny that. after all, marx used exactly that some point against religion by pointing out that ‘religion is the opiate of the masses.’ personally, i do not think that that is the purpose of religion, nor do i agree entirely with marx’s assertion. i think that many people do want to find meaning in religion. also, i am also disturbed by when rituals become reified or used as means to exploit the devout. to me it is important that the element of choice be preserved in the practice of religion at the very least. mere practice of a procedure should not be the standard of judging another person. at a minimum, no should coerce a person into fasting. a woman can be plenty devoted without having to demonstrate a fast. recently, i remember reading a column in the paper when one of the readers had mentioned that they felt unwelcome at church because their financial contribution decreased as a result of some financial problems. i find it insulting to genuine believers that their devotion can be reduced to mere measurable tokens. that is why i was emphasizing lots of freedom for people in terms of religious expression.
you’re right about the fact that different people desire different things out of religion. some desire comfort and solace (which you emphasized), while others might desire meaning. for instance, for some puja is simply adoration, while i’ve also read several exegeses of the rationale of puja. several believe that bhakti and ritual brings them peace or a feeling of closeness to god, while others desire to demonstrate piety through their deeds. i am a cowardly athiest, i think, and to me religion’s beauty lies in its illustration of human frailty and a chance to overcome it. i find ik onkar pauri much more meaningful than any ritual and love creation myths of all sorts. puranic tales really resonate with me, and i was very glad to have read a lot about hindu epics in college. different strokes etc. i do have a general ick factor related with observances that seem to serve no useful function anymore. again, it comes down to personal preferences, but i find it hard to endorse those things when they produce idiotic prescriptions at best and haterade at worst.
and i do think meaning in religion (or ceremonial ritual) is not an elitist preoccupation. the presumption that ordinary people cannot perceive lofty truths is itself elitist. historically, a majority of devout religious figures have come from very marginal backgrounds. especially in india, where i’ve seen religion discussed in the public sphere, i’ve heard very sophisticated religious views from all sorts of people, many of whom are older and/or barely educated.
additionally, it seems like myth and rationale come much before the ritual itself. the familiarized ritual is then divorced from its underlying rationale, but that comes much later. for instance, many religious scholars (and i’m not referring to doniger et al, dear saffron brigade, but serious south asian + western researchers) think that the ritual of puja was actually assimilated into mainstream hinduism and buddhism as tantric ritual and philosophy lite, and had little to do with the traditional bramhminical scriptural tradition. the stories came before the practice not vice-versa.
but generally, i’m not mandating that everybody force themselves to pursue the rationale behind the religious rituals they perform. i will, however, say it is desirable and will continue to hold that view strongly.
128 · Divya said
yup, i think the example of ravana as a wise man and a very steadfast devotee is really awesome in context of the ramayana.
Choice is often a luxury most people cannot afford. Whether this is ideal or not becomes besides the point if the idea is to ultimately be able to better cope with constraints.
You will not find any exegeses of the rationale of puja in hindu primary sources. If anything, the hindu intellectual tradition (upanishads e.g.) will say that puja and ritual is rubbish. This is only one way of thinking and it is a sign of our intellectual colonization that we believe that the upanishads embody the highest truth just because they appeal to reason.
It’s true that many of the great sages have been cobblers, fisherman, weavers and what not. But whatever lofty truth they discovered, it most definitely did not involve seeing meaning in ritual.
It could just be that ritual is not your thing at all. I don’t see myself doing a karva chauth either.
yes this is OT, but this doesn’t wash in the least–you don’t need to pay ever escalating fees to learn ‘higher truths’ in any Hindu tradition (outside of guru cults fostered in the west)–Scientology comes the closest to the ‘opiate of the masses’ model because it functions as a drug pusher who gets the user hooked on the ‘mild’ stuff and progressively ramps up their addiction with ever more ‘exclusive’ teachings.
no other religion uses ‘action’ words and businesspeak as much as Scientology–this is not Islamic Rage Boy or John Hagee but an impossibly vaguer Joel Osteen. Also, “seeing something” usually denotes watching the whole thing–you just tasted the scum floating at the top of the foul pond of Scientology.
I can’t wait for those regressive Indians to catch up to the high-minded Westerners. Now it won’t just be your mother-in-law calling you fat, it’ll be your male peers too!
(I say that as someone who doesn’t really take any side in this debate about traditionalism and regression, but I just had to point out these comments. Sexism is a worldwide problem that’ll never go away).
132 · Divya said
divya, i think we agree about certain things. but i’m just disappointed in your blase dismissal of things without consideration. a lot of saints of the bhakti movement for instance talk about the meaning of puja and what it signifies/does. krishna also talks about it in the gita in contrast with karma yoga. also, when i say that i have seen exegeses in hindu texts, you’ll say that it doesn’t exist. this is just becoming my word against yours, which is not the best kind of discussion.
certain types of ritual are my thing (shabbat dinner for instance. granted it is not a tradition that i’ve grown up with but i enjoy it, even as a religious ceremony. or langar or ardas).
i’m just happy to kill this discussion, as it is becoming very depressing for me. thanks.
I used to make fun of this rituals. Not any more, atleast not with the same passion. If it doesn’t affect me (like asking me to sacrifice food or sleep), what is the big deal. If we think about it and analyse deeply, every ritual or festival of every religion looks meaningless, but then life would be boring and monotonous without these rituals/festivals.
Now, I don’t know about whether a wife fasting for her hubby’s longevity will work or not, but it might be beneficial for her arteries according to http://www.jacn.org/cgi/content/full/18/2/127
and http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/health/dietfitness.html?in_article_id=492053&in_page_id=1798
It looks like it is just one study (showing the benefits of fasting and am unsure about their accuracy, etc) but the part about skipping water for a day does not sound too healthy or pleasant.
I meant to say “skipping water for Karva Chauth” in my last post. The web site links I typed in don’t say a thing about giving up water. Sorry about that.
Of course heart and artery health depend on so many factors like genetics, stress & managing stress, not smoking, good eating & exercise habits, etc. Fasting one day a month or year or whatever may not do too much for heart health if one is eating nothing but junk food etc.
Of course, there are SO many non-sexist social factors that compel women to put tradition ahead of their careers…
It could be that other cultures have a different idea of liberation. It could be that some cultures thought that none of this is liberating and that true freedom comes only through discipline.
Of course there is misery and abuse in all traditions. But this misery is no different from the misery that comes out of the liberty to do drugs or have sex.
Orwell is not dead!
I messed up the italics.
It could be that other cultures have a different idea of liberation. It could be that some cultures thought that none of this is liberating and that true freedom comes only through discipline. Of course there is misery and abuse in all traditions. But this misery is no different from the misery that comes out of the liberty to do drugs or have sex.
Orwell is not dead!
Nina said: “Just as I show my devotion to my husband by fasting one day a year, he shows his devotion to me in a multitude of ways. Why must we assume that showing love is regressive and oppressive towards women? That kind of thinking to me is close-minded and selfish.”
Devotion and love are fine, and I think people who genuinely believe in this stuff aren’t going to change their minds. But karwa chauth is connected to a rather uncomfortable, constant theme in our tradition that suggests that women are responsible for ill-luck that befalls their husbands – hence the stigmatization of a widow as “unlucky” in so many communities (asked to stay away from weddings, married women at karwa chauth, etc), the old manglik thing, and the fear in many married women’s minds that if they take a chance and don’t fast, something bad will happen to their husbands. There’s a mix of guilt, peer pressure, affection, love of ritual and all sorts of other emotions involved in women deciding to keep the fast (see a sensitive description of it by a 1.5 gen woman here).
I’d rather show my love and devotion in other ways, personally.
Neither is Buddha.
Divya and Potmaneau plz continue….I am very much enjoying your discussion…..and I wholeheartedly agree with everything Divya said!
Thanks jaisingh. I was sorry I got Portmanteau all depressed so I decided to practice extreme austerities and only say things in a congenial and pleasant manner. That has effectively shut me up.
What do gay Indian guys do? Which one does the fasting? What about Indian lesbian couples? Do both fast for each other?
portmanteau, why can’t you just get peace by accepting divya’s statements unquestioningly? trying to understand why a certain statement could be right, or asking for evidence is such an elitist patronizing liberal value. isn’t it much better to accept any sort of meaningless gobbledygook thrown at you, and have confidence that rationalization will come later, maybe many centuries later? maybe you should not walk around in pants so much.
Lady Port, have I told you how much I adore you? Here’s an interesting bit by Joseph Campbell (scholar of mythology) about ritual: “A ritual is the enactment of a myth. And through the enactment it brings to mind the implications of the life act that you are engaged in. Now, people ask me, what rituals can we have today? My answer is, what are you doing? What is important in your life? What is important, they say, is having dinner with their friends. That is a ritual. A cocktail party(yes!)is a ritual. It is a religious function in that way, and those people are engaged in a human relationship thing. This is the Chinese idea, the Confucian idea, that human relationships are the way you experience the Tao. Realize what you’re doing when you’re giving a cocktail party. You are performing a social ritual.You are conducting it when you sit down to eat a meal, you are consuming a life. When you’re eating something, this is something quite special to do. And you ought to have that thought when you eat a carrot as well as when you eat an animal, it seems to me. But you don’t know what you’re doing unless you think about it. That’s what a ritual does.”
(Divya, I know this is a kitten, but it’s meant for portmanteau.)
Portmanteau – my blase dismissal was based upon your use of the word exegesis (multiple times). It just threw me off because hyper textual analysis is not what bhakti saints are into, neither is Krisha. If all you want to say is that hindu texts and Krishna recommend/glorify puja then that is not an exegesis of puja. That is what I was dismissive of, nothing more. In fact I became a little alarmed that my last couple of posts sounded anti-ritual and puja.
A very good book on ritual is Rules Without Meaning – Ritual, Mantras and the Human Sciences by Frits Staal. Very hard to read and understand (unless you have a linguistics background) but this is the only meaningful book I’ve found on this subject so far.