Soon after New Year’s Eve, we began receiving tips about a dreadful incident in Bombay involving two young couples who were on vacation (Thanks, Rahul and many others):
A mob of 70-80 men groped and molested two young women for some 15 minutes on a busy main street in Mumbai’s glamour district Juhu early on New Year’s Day.
An identical incident had shamed India’s safest city exactly a year ago — a girl was molested by New Year’s eve revellers at the Gateway of India. That incident was captured on film by a popular Mumbai tabloid; Tuesday morning’s horror was shot by two Hindustan Times lensmen who happened to be on the spot.
The women — one in a black dress, the other in a jeans and top — emerged from the JW Marriott with two male friends around 1.45 am, and began walking towards Juhu beach close by.
A mob of about 40 got after them and began teasing the women. One of the women swore loudly at the hooligans.
But the mob, now 70-80 strong, wouldn’t let go. They trapped the women near a vehicle and a tree, and pounced on them. A man in a white shirt tore off the black dress. Another, in a blue shirt, led the assault. As the women fell on the ground, dozens of men jumped on them. [HT]
The story and the wide-spread, collective anger it inspired grew considerably when the Police Inspector tasked with the case expressed himself in a regrettably insensitive way:
The comments of the Mumbai police commissioner, DN Jadhav further enraged the people: “Don’t make a mountain out of a molehill. Keep your wives at home if you want them safe. This kind of small things can happen anywhereâ€. [meri]
Excellent. Two women who were brutalized deserved it because they were out and about, instead of in the kitchen. While a few Mumbaikars agreed with that unfortunate view, others certainly did not:
Arjun Ghai, executive with an MNC says, “The act was shameful but the attitude of the police in this regard is even worse. If MF Hussain puts up his paintings or a Hollywood star kisses a Bollywood actress, the Shiv Sainiks come to life, but what about such cases? It is the people of our great nation who need to be blamed. I am sure those who were involved in this gruesome act had sisters and wives sitting at home. Did they think about them even for an instance? No wonder we are living among vultures ready to pounce on the flesh of vulnerable women at the drop of a hat.â€
Mira Sud, boutique owner opines, “I heard someone say that the girls might have been drunk or led the guys on. This is absolutely crazy. In a nation like ours where we worship Sita and Laxmi, people tend to lose their moral sense at times. Claiming that a woman might have been drunk is no reason or excuse. What about those instances where the men get drunk and pounce on women? Nobody blames them. In this male-dominated society of ours, we tend to blame the female gender without even considering the situation.â€[meri]
Thankfully, someone contradicted Jadhav:
The state’s Deputy Chief Minister R R Patil made a statement saying, that the police chief’s reaction was inappropriate and that the government was taking the matter seriously. [NDTV]
As I alluded to earlier, some of the more retrograde opinions (which I didn’t care to publicize or quote) declared that these women were “asking for it” by behaving shamelessly and not respecting traditions which apparently involve always staying at home, lest one entice a helpless man to molestation. Well, these weren’t disobedient, frisky, fornicating teens on the beach (not that they’d deserve any of this either).
The newly-wed, NRI couple who faced humiliation at the hands of a mob in Juhu on New Year’s eve, had married in a traditional ceremony in Gujarat just a day before the incident…
Hiten Patel and his wife had come down to Mumbai along with Hiten’s cousin and his wife a day after their wedding to bring in the New Year. The couple wanted to holiday in India for a fortnight before flying back home.
Hundreds of their friends and relatives from the US had flown down to India for the wedding. Hiten’s uncle Sunil Patel told TOI, “Hiten was born in the US and has lived in Texas. He runs his family-owned chain of motels. His wife is pursuing her MBA in the US and theirs was an arranged match.”
The couple is still in a state of shock following the molestation. Hiten’s wife has said she’s trying to “get over the horror” while expressing her anger over the fact that bystanders had not come to their rescue. But when Hiten spoke to TOI, he said there were some people in the crowd who tried to “help us pick up our belongings. I have not lodged a police complaint since I do not want the wrong people to be booked.” [TOIlet]
Do some of these the so-called traditionalists feel a little sorry for condemning these women, now that we know they were so obedient and homely, one of them allowed her parents to choose her husband? Sorry, what’s that? All I hear is crickets chirping. Now it is two weeks later, and the alleged culprits are denying involvement:
The Juhu molestation case accused on Wednesday said that they were innocent. Addressing the media, the accused who are out on bail, said that they were merely onlookers who were pushed by a crowd on the New Year’s Eve, and the photographers clicked the wrong persons.
The men, in a belligerent outburst, accused the media of jumping too fast to their own conclusions. One of them said that he was not even there at the spot when the incident occurred.
“We were returning from dinner and saw a crowd of 150 surrounding two couples. We became curious and got thrown into the scene. The photographers just clicked our pictures and the police took us for interrogation,†the accused said. [Zee]
But wait! There’s MORE. These men don’t know when to shut up, but that flaw gave me my title for this post, so a microscopic thank you to these perverts for that:
The men didn’t stop at that clarification. They said that while the newspapers splashed ‘molestation’ pictures, they did not write a word about how the girls in question were drunk.
“The couples were in an inebriated state. They were smooching on the road. What were they expecting?â€, they said. [Zee]
If this outrageous molestation of a new bride and her cousin wasn’t revolting enough, unfortunately several other instances of assault are in the news, some of them involving tourists, which has helped muddy India’s name on an international-scale.
Over New Year’s Eve, cases of molestation of tourists were reported both in Mumbai and Kochi.
A British journalist has alleged she was raped by the owner of the guesthouse in Udaipur where she was staying last week.
In another incident in Rajasthan, a 28-year-old American tourist was allegedly molested by a priest in front of a temple in the Hindu pilgrim town of Pushkar. The priest was subsequently arrested. [MalaysianSun]
2007 wasn’t so great for female travelers, either:
In March last year, the son of an important police official, was found guilty of raping a German researcher in Rajasthan.
Also last year, a Japanese tourist complained that she was drugged and raped by a group of men in Pushkar.
The latest report from the National Crime Records Bureau shows there has been a phenomenal eight-fold increase in rapes in India since 1971. [MalaysianSun]
About that appalling increase in rapes– Chachaji posted a link on the news tab which discusses exactly that chilling upward trend:
The latest crime statistics, pertaining to 2006, released by the Home Ministry’s National Crime Records Bureau (NCRB) show that every hour 18 women become victims of crime. The number of rapes a day has increased nearly 700 per cent since 1971 — when such cases were first recorded by NCRB. It has grown from seven cases a day to 53.
The figure grew 5.5 per cent over the number of cases registered in 2005.
In comparison, all other crimes have grown by 300 per cent since 1953 when the NCRB started keeping records.
And these are just the cases that have been reported; the number of unreported cases is far higher. [HT]
Now that last bit has been on my mind while wading through all of these links that so many of you mutineers were kind enough to send in– is there an increase in the number of rapes or an increase in the number of rapes which are being reported?
According to NCRB figures, among 35 cities with a population of more than a million, Delhi topped the list of crimes against women with 4,134 cases (nearly one-fifth of the total crimes against women). One-third of the rapes and a fifth of the molestations took place in the city. Hyderabad was second most dangerous for women with 1,755 cases.
Among the states, Andhra Pradesh had the highest number of crimes committed against women — 21,484 cases or 13 per cent of the total cases in 2006. Uttar Pradesh was a close second, with 9.9 per cent of such crimes. Madhya Pradesh reported the highest number of rape cases, at 2,900, and also molestation cases. [HT]
Frustration is palpable, and not surprising. Tourism is important to Incredible India. Beyond that, regular ol’ Indians and NRIs are rightfully angered by such ugly acts. Yes, India has a conflicted view of women; for all the negativity associated with issues like infanticide, dowry deaths and other well-known social ills, there is also a strain of that so-called “traditionalism” (which the accused disgustingly attempted to use as justification for their reprehensible actions) which is protective of women. India is that complicated and that simple.
In DC, desi cab drivers in their idling Crown Victorias duck slightly to peer at stranger-me, their faces filled with worry, until I unlock the inner doors to my apartment lobby, enter and wave gratefully– they hear these news stories and feel anguish as they replace the victims at Juhu with their own kin. They worry out loud that India is changing and for the worse. Why do they wait to make sure I’m safely inside those glass doors? Because during my ride home from work or Trader Joe’s, they’re telling me about how they have a daughter my age or a niece who also took her Master’s at GW. There are more of these men than those who emulate the after-goodies mob at Juhu, but they will be obscured by all this scandal.
It must be so frustrating; at a time when so many exciting, promising things are happening in India, what is a foreign country going to cover– the Nano or the brutal rape of one of their female citizens? Even if they publish stories on both, which will retain the most mindshare, especially among those who are predisposed to believe the worst?
What the perpetrators of these sexual assaults fail to understand is that in commiting these lust-fueled, power-hungry attacks, they don’t just bruise or traumatize innocent women; they thoughtlessly and recklessly give their country a black eye, as well. If nothing else convinces these assholes to keep their hands to themselves, perhaps it might be effective to convey to them that a Cricket-related slight isn’t the only reason to obsess over India’s reputation; if they care so much about their country’s honor because of an unfair decision in Australia, they should spare a thought for India’s honor off the pitch, too.
Or maybe he moved on to an easier target, somebody who was too afraid or reluctant to retaliate? Or is that not possible in your India either?
Not every Indian woman is armed and dangerous, if that’s what you are asking. If it were, the occurrence of these events would be far less, wouldn’t it?
Thank you for the compliment. I will return it at the earliest possibly opportunity where it’s deserved.
Or maybe he moved on to an easier target, somebody who was too afraid or reluctant to retaliate?
The two aren’t mutually exclusive, he could still cause a stink, win in the court of public opinion, and still move on to the easier, un-pinned target.
Not every Indian woman is armed and dangerous, if that’s what you are asking. If it were, the occurrence of these events would be far less, wouldn’t it?
Then that’s contradictory to this testimony:
“All of us in Madras took buses and always had safety pins.”
this:
“The pin solution is also common in Delhi. Some of my friends would take a pin with them to counter being ‘ferratoed’ (sp?) on the buses. “
not to mention your own:
“tarta’s experience sadly reflects the responses some of my aunts and cousins had to take “
I’ll grant you, your statement is the least generalized, but I’ll take your current backtracking of “not everyone does it” as a concession to my point.
I will return it at the earliest possibly opportunity where it’s deserved
well, that would require correct characterization of my arguments. Im not holding my breath.
302 · HMF said
actually the testomony proves rahul correct, that only some women carry pins, not all:
“All of us in Madras took buses and always had safety pins.”
–i took all to mean all her friends (“all of us”) not all women.
“The pin solution is also common in Delhi. Some of my friends would take a pin with them to counter being ‘ferratoed’ (sp?) on the buses. “
“tarta’s experience sadly reflects the responses some of my aunts and cousins had to take “
Where is Rajni when you need her? Please make this inane debate about pin pricks stop… It is driving me crazy.
HMF, it’s not wordplay, but your literalistic interpretation of “all” in defense of your argument is one of the funniest things I’ve read all year.
Well, since I never tracked anywhere, I did not backtrack. But feel free to grant and take whatever you see fit.
No, it would just require some good wordplay. But you would be best off not holding your breath.
Yogi, you saved me from the ignominy of imploring, pleading, supplicating that PG return in her full pomp and splendor.
But we still have yet to explain why indian women, if they are so abused, haven’t embraced a Marcus Graveyesque separation of the sexes. Why is the Nation of Islam not more popular in India? Why do little girls not have big posters of Louis Farakhan on their walls. Is it a Jewish conspiracy to destroy Chris Rock? Would this not be the logical course of action if all this alledged sexual harassment where true?
actually the testomony proves rahul correct, that only some women carry pins, not all:
Whenever I feel like there’s a chance my argument will be characterized correctly, you come in and save the day.
No it doesnt. because his point was that it is common enough problem (which is stronger than saying “some”) to make it not worthy of humor. As these statements imply:
All of us in Madras took buses and always had safety pins.”
The pin solution is also common in Delhi.
Where as my point is not that all women carry pins (which he conveniently mischaracterized, he beat you to that one, c’mon don’t slip in this too), rather that it’s a logical contradiction to the general attitude purported by many women here that Indian society offers women no recourse for being groped (which I actually agree with, but the same attitude would likely not offer recourse for women using pins to prevent that groping, even if it’s defense-motivated)
Well, since I never tracked anywhere,
It’s a good thing your wordplay is good. your ideaplay (rahul level yet? hmm? hmm?) needs some real work. Are you now stating that your original response (#248) was not to somehow convince me that pin usage is common enough to not warrant sarcasm I exhibited here? (#242)
But we still have yet to explain why indian women, if they are so abused, haven’t embraced a Marcus Graveyesque separation of the sexes.
Because they’re aunt katies.
Would this not be the logical course of action if all this alledged sexual harassment where true?
No, in fact, it should be the women who’s having her dress yanked above her head to go start an investment bank.
Coming from you, HMF, that is a real compliment. I would shudder if you thought otherwise.
If you noticed, my comment in #248 was a response to your sarcastic statement “the sight of a pinless woman to molest was too much to resist”, thereby implying that these women who carried pins were overreacting or overstating the level of abuse, not to your comment #242, which I assumed was some sort of dig at PG.
I don’t know if you are still youtube deprived at work, but the argument link in my previous comment is particularly apropos for the kinds of discussions you engage in.
Amazing. Again with the three “I”s: I-banking, (Nation of) Islam and Inane.
A N N A, 4 I’s just don’t have the ring of 3, but you forgot “idiotic”. What can I say, my self restraint finally gave after reading so many months of this repetitive nonsense. Got. To. Resist.
I said it before, and I’ll say it again…
M. Nam
Look HMF you have your issues with women and your pay. Don’t belittle the abuse women/girls experience in India. Why don’t you start an i-banc and get hitched.
JOAT: Re your mom, my sympathies. Try to understand people felt at least you were not alone and had someone: a partner, friend,(your husband). The same would be said to my son: he has someone to console him, share his grief, share everything.
I live in India several months of the year. Yes, I am mid fifties, have been groped.
Some NYC experiences: Lexington and 86th subway at 9.30 pm: a young male looked at me and stuck out his penis. I am afraid I did a good inspection and asked him very loudly and indignantly what he meant by showing me such a terrible and silly specimen. He was startled and I yelled at him some more, simply so he would get cowed and not do this again. I suggested he visit a doctor now. “How dare you show me something so silly looking?†He stuttered yes, yes. I yelled, “Now†again. He asked if I would like it anyway. I shrieked at him that I had a pile of dishes to do and if he was not careful, I would make him do them.
Yes several more incidents, 5 pm Tompkins Park: a young teenager took of his pants, showed me his bottom after making grotesque faces. I could have left but I use the park a lot. So, I sat and laughed and roared and every time he looked at me, roared some more, clutching my sides. I said, between gales of laughter, oh, babies do that, oh! oh! He was nonplussed. Then I said sweetly you know, I can get that anywhere but perhaps you can explain this book to me. I had a thick volume with me. I added, sagely, such stuff is only interesting to youngsters, available everywhere. I wanted him to feel stupid, illiterate and boring besides. Slowly without hurry but worried, I left the park and took TWO buses in a different direction for future safety.
Third: in a subway at 3 pm a young male masturbated while staring at me all the time. No one said or did anything. I just looked him straight in the eye sternly. Yes the compartment was semi-full. He was one of those who use the seats to sleep on. No one say anything (because he was black?)
Not related: Also I have had my purse picked thrice: once by the nice assistant in the E Village Post office while at the counter. I could go on. The issue is I have had to learn self defense. I was taught to run if possible first, look around me always, let someone know where I am and in general NOT stay out ‘too late’.
Yes, India must tackle this. It may happen and happen more elsewhere, my responsibility is India.
PG, I didn’t really mean it.
316 · Auntiji said
Best. SM. Comment. EVER.
Awww, Rahul…you think? Sigh.
Anna Another event after such appreciation! Woman exec (House keeping)at the Taj Hotel in Bombay. The young male cleaner working with her shut the door and started ‘acting funny’. Terrified, she got out and told the other women. The next day, when he left work, they surrounded him and beat him up.
Yes HMF, when pins aren’t available for pricks, hands can be effective.
I am with Rahul on this one, auntyji sounds suspiciously like PG, may be we can start a pool to make this more interesting.
281 · Manju said
🙂 manju, you’re awesome.
No, I am not PG whoever that is, simply a mid-fifties hack living in NYC.
320 · Auntiji said
Heh, Heh, Heh
If you noticed, my comment in #248 was a response to your sarcastic statement “the sight of a pinless woman to molest was too much to resist”, thereby implying that these women who carried pins were overreacting or overstating the level of abuse
either way. it’s still the establishment of a position, ie. a track, that you subsequently backed off from.
Coming from you, HMF, that is a real compliment. I would shudder if you thought otherwise.
True. Being wordfunny, a walking youtube dictionary, and making logical sense is too much even for you to handle.
I dunno what’s a worse train wreck. Rahul attempting to be serious, or Manju attempting to be funny.
Auntiji with all due respect a mentally unstable(often) flasher in the subway (and we’ve all encountered at least one) is not the same as your average harrasser on the street in India. They are normal for all intents and purposes, have a family, a home, usually a job/go to school and aren’t exactly homeless and mentally ill like the lone flasher potentially homeless as your post suggests…in the United States. Do men who are “normal” occassionally try to feel up women on the subway? Absolutely. But will you say it’s at the same rate and threat and brazenness as in India? I take the subway everyday twice a day. I encounter more rude men who shove and push than perverts.
Auntiji by breast was grabbed by a hand in Bandra market in Mumbai many years ago. I grabbed the hand and it ended up belonging to a man who was shopping with his mother and wife! The mother and wife got all indignant with me (how dare you point your devil finger at my son dressed the way you are being western and all probably a whore) but I caught the hand in the act. People stopped and watched. No one tried to stop anything. It was a tamasha. The aunt I was with pleaded with me to let him go. The women eventually started begging me to let him go. Then a bunch of guys from the crowd started begging me to let him go “Janedo madam galti ho gayi” (let him go madam he made a mistake). Then a havaldar (police constable) tried to tell me “Jaudya madam kashala vaitag gheta” (let him go madam why are you hasseling yourself)
The truth of the matter is I did let go. What was I going to do? Go to the police? I was a tourist there for a few days. Then what? How many people around would have tried to convince me that A. I was wrong B. It’s too much hassle there are bigger problems in this city or C. He made a mistake won’t happen again. When shit like this could happen to someone like me and I’d kill you with my bare hands if you touch me, I’m not your wilting flower kind…what happens to girls who are fearful of embarrassment and being targetted again????
man who is pricked will never bring attention to the fact that he has been pricked. The lecherous ones do not wish to call attention to their shameless behavior.
Why would they consider it shameless if they have attitudes of entitlement, superiority, and a general sentiment that they can ‘get away with it’?
in this game, the guy’s best strategy is to shut up
that completely contradicts the attitude of male dominance, “getting away with it”, and entitlement and superiority, and completely contradicts rahuls ‘they dont want to compromise they’re machoness” argument.
JOAT Agreed. However curious re PG or PDQ or plain P’d Off or whatever. Am I being accused of idy theft?
Good try, Aunty-G. I will give it to you though, that comment was a real funny compendium of tropes. Keep them coming!
i wanted to amplify what joat said above and what her experiences show. the problem, hmf, is not that men are not ashamed of their groping etc, no. they are ashamed, but not because they think its a seriously criminal act violating a woman’s basic rights, but because its sexual. such people don’t think that its that big a deal (or even a serious offense). embarrassing, yes; serious and criminal, no. this is the basic attitude that needs to change among a significant section of indian men. again i don’t mean to suggest that even a majority of indian men think like this, but enough do so that this kind of thing happens with alarming regularity (given the population of indian cities, it ends up being a large absolute number of incidents).
313 · Rahul said
Rahul,
Glad to see you finally taking up the cudgel but don’t expect much in the way of results–there’s no retreating from ideological foxholes of that peculiar and terrifying depth. It’s a yeoman’s work that you’ve done.
Aged 55. Not sure what a trope is. Is it an ABCD term for grope?
Thanks again, HMF! Your medieval attitudes are only matched by your old-fashioned grace in defeat.
I will attempt to match you though, inadequately I’m sure. You can have the last word.
Not to speak of questions of such relevance, or discussions with such logical coherence.
The thing that redeems this sad story for me, a little bit, is Rahul’s fly-swatting expedition! I suspect damage to my spleen from explosive laughter.
One of my best memories of dubyah is his first press conference in Denver after he assumed the mantle when he spat out the words nukilar, strategory and peace in the same sentence (I use the classification loosely, he skipped the verb), and then looked ever so proud. This was in response to a question about the NPT. In one fell swoop he managed to highlight his ignorance of the issue and the language, embarrass his staff and remain blissfully unaware of the depth of his ignorance. I am reminded of this endearing behavior when I see HMF pat himself/herself on the back for his/her “logic” on topics as relevant as safety pins, and the meaning of the word all. HMF, if you manage to amuse multiple mutineers across multiple threads, get them to dimiss you and call you on your OT pissing contest, it could possibly be a clue. 😀 Your approach of “Yo I’m wit you guyz…see I think just like you” and dutifully proceeding to shoot your pinkies off has got to be painful no??
Before I get sucked into the dark side (OT) and the gratuitous amusement that is HMF, here’s an incident that happened in Calcutta in the early eighties. As an infant stuck in the back of a Herald that my mother was learning to drive, the car got stuck on tram tracks. My dad instantly bolted and came back in 2 minutes minus his shirt, in the crowd that gathers around any spectacle in Calcutta. In this case the spectacle was a car holding up tram-fuls of workers on their way to valuable jobs. The crowd quickly self appointed a leader, asked my mom if her man had abandoned her (somebody had been spotted bolting), asked after her welfare and mine, chastized the tram driver about bleating his horn at her, pushed the car off the tracks and helped her start it up. A couple of “power to the people” and we were off, later picking up my dad as he skulked around Camac Street. No prizes for guessing the leader of this pack was my dad! Apparently if he had been in the car, it would’ve been a different story. Later as a teenager visiting Calcutta in the late nineties I saw a guy hauled out of a movie theater line, verbally thrashed and warned never to come back. He’d been accused by a woman in line, of coming too close. Perhaps Cacutta has changed too, but I wanted to offer the contrast to Delhi and Mumbai. My sister, who lived in Calcutta through age 14, confirms that she “felt” safer in public spaces in Calcutta, compared to Delhi, Sydney and NYC.
Your medieval attitudes are only matched by your old-fashioned grace in defeat.
Well you posted at least 2 or 3 youtube links, and I posted none. Of course it was a defeat.
you can have the last word
word.
such people don’t think that its that big a deal (or even a serious offense). embarrassing, yes; serious and criminal, no.
Exactly my point. I’m sure these people would think getting pricked with a pin is somewhat serious and criminal. The men who perpetrate this obviously have some inkling that their behavior is unwanted at some level (otherwise they wouldn’t wait for mobs to ‘hide in’ or crowded buses to spring into action) but the question is why would they remain quiet when they feel they haven’t done anything serious or criminally wrong? Is getting pricked by a pin right between that sweet spot of say being verbally berated and say having their head blown off by a shotgun?
but enough do so that this kind of thing happens with alarming regularity (given the population of indian cities, it ends up being a large absolute number of incidents).
so what you’re saying is a small # of men commit a disproportionately large # of assaults, its the only way to explain your figures. but if that’s the case, then it still wouldn’t warrant pin pricking as a trend overall, as one guy can only grope one girl and one time. It’s the first rule of groping physics.
“I see HMF pat himself/herself on the back for his/her “logic” on topics as relevant as safety pins, and the meaning of the word all. HMF, if you manage to amuse multiple mutineers across multiple threads, get them to dimiss you and call you on your OT pissing contest, it could possibly be a clue. 😀 Your approach of “Yo I’m wit you guyz…see I think just like you” and dutifully proceeding to shoot your pinkies off has got to be painful no??”
You had me at “pat himself/herself” I’m gonna go on a limb and assume there’s some kind of logical statement here ?
Before I get sucked into the dark side (OT) and the gratuitous amusement that is HMF,
is that what you call inability to address the actual point, grammar champ?
I’ll add my two rupees. I was in India when this molestation case happened. They had a “debate” on some TV show about it. I was shocked that none of the debaters, including two feminists, mentioned that these men should be blamed. Instead they discussed the victims being drunk, dressing certain ways, the police not doing enough, the men being drunk on new years, the late hour. Whatever. They basically accepted that it’s okay for men to behave like this. If you go to any beach in Kerala or Goa during Christmas-time you’ll notice within two minutes that Indian men are repressed. That is the core problem. It’s cultural. No one wants to talk about that because the only solution is to be more liberal, which is too western and taboo in India.
Of course, it’s not to say that this cultural problem happens only in India. When I was in Japan this was a huge problem on the subway system. Of course, in America there are incidents now and then like the Central Park incident a few years ago. However, overall I think Indian men are probably the worst in the world from what I’ve seen.
Ever heard of the phrase risk-averse? Many might get away, but what if you happen to be that unlucky groper that the crowd wants to beat up because it’s International Women’s Day? Second, lots of men know it’s wrong, but do it anyway if there is a chance they can get away with it (in the sense that they will escape law enforcement and/or mob violence). So if such a person does get pricked, there is a non-negligible probability that if he continues with the behavior the woman (the sort that does carry pins) will create a scene through vociferous protests or yelling or exhorting nearby people to come to her aid. In areas/instances where men know that they will get away with it (regardless of the woman’s protests) assualt/teasing/violence is much more rampant. An example is the state of Rajasthan where recourse to law is not an option, even for very violent crimes against women. Obviously, if you are unfortunate enough to live in such areas safety-pins will be quite inadequate to protect women from harassment.
those who live in glass houses etc shouldn’t comment on faulty grammar. safires don’t quite go with your lone-star cowboy get-up.
The very worst train wreck is your pitiful and delusional attempt at playing maverick intellectual. Let’s face it, you’re no Socrates.
Boys, thanks for all the links to Monty Python skits 🙂
you see its about weight ratio.. a 5 ounce HMF cannot carry a one pound logic! Unless its an African HMF.
Many might get away, but what if you happen to be that unlucky groper that the crowd wants to beat up because it’s International Women’s Day?
By this you imply that it’s a rare occurrence for any kind of retribution.
Second, lots of men know it’s wrong, but do it anyway if there is a chance they can get away with it
I know. I said this right here:
“The men who perpetrate this obviously have some inkling that their behavior is unwanted at some level (otherwise they wouldn’t wait for mobs to ‘hide in’ or crowded buses to spring into action)”
So if such a person does get pricked, there is a non-negligible probability that if he continues with the behavior the woman (the sort that does carry pins) will create a scene through vociferous protests or yelling or exhorting nearby people to come to her aid.
And by definition, these areas don’t have what many women here are calling “a male dominated sense of justice where such events are explained away and not taken seriously”
An example is the state of Rajasthan where recourse to law is not an option, even for very violent crimes against women. Obviously, if you are unfortunate enough to live in such areas safety-pins will be quite inadequate to protect women from harassment.
Which is exactly my point, again, I got the feeling that many here were implying, at a collective level, India is like this w/respect to the western world. And therefore, as you say, safety pins would be inadequate (and as I’d see it, could potentially cause more harm)
Let’s face it, you’re no Socrates.
Even socrates was no socrates.
those who live in glass houses etc shouldn’t comment on faulty grammar.
That was my point, I dont go to great lengths to double check grammar, I actually engage the point. However there are those that do not.
this strains credulity…i know plenty of indian feminists; they are some of the more radical kinds found in the world. what show are you talking about? i have indian t.v. channels and programming schedules, i can check up. again, i find this hard to believe, especially given that the english-language media in india has said no such thing (judging from the opinion pieces)
This news is perhaps relevant.
C’mon, sigh!, some comments need to be left alone to die a Gori death.
SM Intern… are inane Monty Python youtube link posts considered on topic in this thread while a current news item on what police consider sexual harassment off topic ? Just an honest question.
Your current news item was about a sting operation in America so yes, it was very off-topic. Read the commenting policy. Monty Python is funny.
K… I got it… Monty Python on any thread is funny, so is on topic. Thanks.
345 · Vikram said
Thank you for this, though. Much appreciated as such questions are often coated with a nice veneer of hostility.
No problem. I guess I still feel that news item was relevant considering the content, especially several of the posts prior to that seemed to me to be just some self absorbed posters having a private joke, irrelevant to the thread. Oh well, is not my call.
349 · Vikram said
Vikram, your comment was about how police officers in America are using scheming sunbathers to trap innocent men in to exposing themselves. Not only is that off-topic, it’s a little odd that you’d want to post something about women tempting naive men to misbehave on this thread. Some might even find the comparison disrespectful. None of this is relevant though, because this is a discussion about a sexual assault in India.
I’m sorry you are upset by other comments, but
a) the joke ain’t private, it’s now a recurring theme on SM threads
b) they are still discussing gender dynamics, pin pricks and other things which are germane.
To call them self-absorbed is inaccurate and unfair, I think.