408 thoughts on “Drunk Women in Juhu: “What were they expecting?””

1. Don’t know if anyone else has tried this, but after getting groped on my previous trip to Delhi, I actually decided on putting on the burqa (bought for a few hundred rupees in a Muslim neighborhood). Seems odd for a Brahmin girl like me wearing the burqa around town (my aunts and mom seem to hate anything Islamic), but I wasn’t groped at all (although it was hot as hell being wrapped in a burqa!)

2. Don’t know if anyone else has tried this, but after getting groped on my previous trip to Delhi, I actually decided on putting on the burqa (bought for a few hundred rupees in a Muslim neighborhood). Seems odd for a Brahmin girl like me wearing the burqa around town (my aunts and mom seem to hate anything Islamic), but I wasn’t groped at all (although it was hot as hell being wrapped in a burqa!)

   Hilarious! Great idea actually. Will do next time I’m in Delhi. But I won’t don a burga in the town I reside. That would be deemed too scandalous/weird/over-the-top. On second thought, maybe I should, if only for that reason.

3. story on legally blind cabdriver snipped…

   Are serious or just trying to be funny? Is it legal to employ a blind driver in one’s cab business?

   oai! ae kee! are you even american, dude? some people dont let go of their steering wheel here until a crowbar is used to pry their cold fingers off. and have car, will drive (and sleep, and pee in it. yea!!). 🙂 seriously tho’ this really happened. legally blind is not the same as blind but i’m making this unfunny. it was dusk and snowing and the windshield fogged up.

   on another note, i know you loathe indians dear but rage eats the insides. societal change is incremental and best not served at the end of a lathi.

4. Don’t feed the troll, people. That’s what Rahul is here for (at least in this specific case). “Rahul the PG-slayer.”

5. HMF: tarta’s experience sadly reflects the responses some of my aunts and cousins had to take so they could feel more comfortable about traveling in public transport in India.

   must be a north thing. I’ve never heard of the pin defense anywhere in Bangalore, or Mysore.

6. While there has been some comment about frats, mass occasions such as the P.R. day parade in New York City, etc. etc. consider this; these groping and physical sexual harrassment incidents in India are not just commonplace, they are constant. And the men who molest are stone cold sober. I travelled by crowded bus to my university back in the day. Although there is no way to tell for sure, I would not have been surprised to hear that at least one woman was groped in every single one of those bus rides. The sad fact is that such behaviour has been internalized and normalized over the decades by a whole subset of young and old Indian men, who otherwise live ordinary lives. Equal amounts of punishment, education and public involvement of bystanders should begin to help.

   There is hope; in the Calcutta of a few decades ago, ordinary citizens in the street could be expected to collectively gather around and chastise or even beat any man bothering a woman in public. All she had to do was to cry for help.

7. Anna,

   I am disappointed that you, of all, let an analysis of a crime degenerate into a discussion of national character. I dont know how a case of molestation is connected with how much sex Indian men get, our tradionalism, and other aspects of Indian character. I witnessed the Puerto rico parade in NY on that fateful day. (I even allow myself to believe I saw the trouble begin). When some say that such incidents happen anywhere, they are not justifying it, but asking you to see them as human frailties, not Indian ones.

   You may also be straying into sensationalism. The police commissioner was pointing out that the Police had made generally good bandobast, and that Mumbai is generally safe. A crime can be condemned for its sake alone, but the Police should be condemned only by statistics. The commissioner could be faulted for choosing words poorly, but to tear words out of context and impute that the highest police officer believes “Two women who were brutalized deserved it because they were out and about, instead of in the kitchen” is excessive.

   For the rest of the quotes, there always seem to be no dearth of people in India who open up to the press and exclaim that women deserve some of what they get. I dont come across these types myself, or maybe they exist and dont open up to me, so I wont comment.

8. And also, to ask Indians to shut up about “a cricket slight” till such time as we purge our land of molestors, rapists, poverty and blah is also BS. Why dont all ABDs shuddup about everything else till they purge America of the genocidal Bush? Of gun toting school children? Or of USA’s nuclear stock pile? Or any other similarly important single minded pursuit? Why cant a poor country choose to be light hearted?

   Anyway Anna, I still love you. Dont ever forget that.

9. Ugh, this is kinda getting trollish. By responding to comments like 257 earlier I dragged this thread in the wrong direction – not my intention, my apologies. So, yeah, let’s not go down this pointless path again. Besides, I think 256 responds to 257 well enough. If not, you might want to read the rest of this thread Bunty.

10. Ranjini on January 15, 2008 08:54 PM · Direct link · “Quote”(?) Don’t know if anyone else has tried this, but after getting groped on my previous trip to Delhi, I actually decided on putting on the burqa (bought for a few hundred rupees in a Muslim neighborhood). Seems odd for a Brahmin girl like me wearing the burqa around town (my aunts and mom seem to hate anything Islamic), but I wasn’t groped at all (although it was hot as hell being wrapped in a burqa!)

    This somehow strikes me as rather extreme and borderline psychotic behavior – if at all true. It’s not like there’s open groping going around on the streets. There is a groping in public transport sometimes in Delhi but this almost makes it seem like there are gangs of men walking around Delhi groping women on the streets. This is not true and a blatant attempt at maligning India.

    PS: I hope this was not another one of PG’s aliases. In which case, I just wasted 30 seconds.

11. Pardesi Gori, haven’t you been to all these places? Do tell us how it is to ride the bus in Reykjavik too! Or do you do that only on blogs related to Icelandic diaspora?

    PG can´t tell you how it is, but I can. No groping. For the most part, on this thread, she has been making sense, to me.

    There is such a disconnect here – the women say “yes, this big incident can happen occasionally anywhere but it happens to make us recall the onerous frequency of everyday groping/eve-teasing when we are in India.” Many men respond with “harassment/assault happens everywhere in the world stop saying America is perfect and India is bad there´s no way eve-teasing is very frequent at all in India there´s no great difference in a woman´s experience in crowded public transport in India and US”

    Would you guys who are saying this at least talk to women you know in both countries before contradicting people´s accounts of their personal experience? I note there hasn´t yet been a single woman commenting who has said that her everyday experience of being out in public is the same in India and US vis-a-vis harassment. (Yes, self-selected sample and blah blah blah, but don´t you think that if we were a bunch of India-haters melodramatically exaggerating the situation that another “more reasonable” woman reading this would be likely to comment in order to provide counterexamples?)

    It just amazes me that the disconnect persists after 260 comments. Or are you guys just skimming the women´s posts and going “oh, negative, just hates India” and writing your irrelevant responses?

12. Women should carry those prank buzzers people use to shock via handshakes. Someone grabs your ass, you shock their balls.

13. At 255 HMF, I do not know about Bangalore/Mysore of the past. I doubt if Bangalore ever had the bus service that catered to the average middle class. All of us in Madras took buses and always had safety pins. We also knew who the trouble makers were and kept our distance. It was considered better to keep quiet since we had to take the same bus at the same time everyday until the all-ladies buses were introduced on our routes. In the 20 years things have certainly not improved in India, it seems. Mysore is where I go now every summer, and I have not encountered it. But on the other hand I travel with my son who is now bigger than most bus travellers :-).

    Last time, we went from Bangalore to Mysore on the full bus and the conductor asked my son to switch seats with him to sit next to some gentleman so that a young girl could sit next to me and not to the man. So that kind of chivalry is also very common!

14. Does anyone know if that motherf***in guy with the white shirt and a red Tshirt underneath who is shown with a smile in the picutre been identified? If I am the husband, I would love to hire a goonda to kick the crap out of that guy.

    To those who asked if the husbands managed to punch anyone, I think he tried to resist. But it is very tough in a mob situation. Especially a chaotic one like that.

15. My gori roommate in chennai and her gori collegues suffered eve-teasing, groping attack. A friend got flashed in Pune. The very few shows they have done of lonely planet about travel to india they have a tourist talk about how she got raped. looks like this is all india is about 🙁

16. must be a north thing. I’ve never heard of the pin defense anywhere in Bangalore, or Mysore.

    HMF, hilarious as the situation might seem to you, the relatives I was talking about, who used the “pin defense”, were in Madras, which by all accounts is “a south thing”. And Mytri brings up the excellent additional point of the fact that they encountered the troublemakers everyday, not just in a one-off scenario.

    PG can´t tell you how it is, but I can. No groping. For the most part, on this thread, she has been making sense, to me.

    You mean, the fact that it decided to make its comment right after somebody genuinely shared their experience, and then says things like this, this, and this (and even responds to itself)? (Why do you even think its a “She”?) I hope your additional sentences were not prompted as a referendum on PG, whose intention is really to mock the predicaments that these women found themselves in by derailing every thread, but as a response to the crappy reactions of people to others’ comments.

17. Bunty, we are disappointed in Anna, too. How dare she finally put up a post after several tips and emails requesting one. How dare she pull quotes from Indian, not American newspapers. How dare she try to point out that a small number of men are ruining it for all by that painfully earnest ending?

    For being an uppity, hypocritical ABCD who dared insult India’s izzat (and cricket!), we’ll send her to bed with no dinner tonight, howzat?

18. That’s an urban myth. Dolphins are actually shape shifting reptiles, descendents of the thetan Xenu, planted on Earth to subvert the progress of humanity at large. Suppressives of the highest order. Psychiatrists who administer drugs like Paxil to depressed persons such as women suffering from PPD, are part of the agenda. That is why they want you to believe that dolphins are highly sensitive animals with a melodic language.

    ‘It’ also seems to be a scientologist. Rahul’s PG shutdowns are hilarious. ‘It’ is running wild on Vivek’s PTR posttoo..

    The pin solution is also common in Delhi. Some of my friends would take a pin with them to counter being ‘ferratoed’ (sp?) on the buses.

    Its not India-bashing to discuss a problem that is obviously prevalent in India. Sexual harrassment may be common in the USA (my wife used to often get ‘eve teased’ by african americans) but in general, people here will not lay the blame on the woman’s character as seems to be the case in India. This seems analogous to the recent outrageous incident in Saudi where the woman was convicted after SHE got raped. The Indian mindset on ‘eveteasing’ and sexual harrassment seems to have been borne from drinking from the same shithole that these particular Saudis did.

19. part of it is also due to a class/social divide. there are a large number of poor men in india who live under the thumb of the wealthier sections of society. you should see how rich people treat poor people in india – like they were some subhuman species. a poor man gets pushed and shoved around and treated with no respect. then they go out and see these ‘rich girls’ in their short dresses (so unlike their own moms and wives who would be covered from head to toe in a saree or something), and they assault them as a way of ‘getting’ the perks of wealth (i.e. pretty women).

    i don’t intend to justify their actions, obviously a man of morals would not behave that way in the same circumstances, nor am i saying women are property, but this is part of the explanation.

    you can see the same thing in action when a guy in a car knocks down someone on a bike, and a crowd immediately gathers to render street justice to the car owner.

20. I hope your additional sentences were not prompted as a referendum on PG

    No, not at all.

21. but as a response to the crappy reactions of people to others’ comments.

    Absolutely. PG got into my response because it started to look like the responses to PG were a referendum on all the women who recounted their experiences. I knew you weren´t doing that but I didn´t know about some of the others who were joining in with you.

22. and they assault them as a way of ‘getting’ the perks of wealth (i.e. pretty women).

    The guy in the white shirt in the picture hardly looks like a starving laborer.

23. 269 · pj said

    a poor man gets pushed and shoved around and treated with no respect. then they go out and see these ‘rich girls’ in their short dresses (so unlike their own moms and wives who would be covered from head to toe in a saree or something), and they assault them as a way of ‘getting’ the perks of wealth (i.e. pretty women).

    This is thought-provoking, thank you for contributing it.

    In another news, one of the links on the dance-monkey thread was to a video of some actor named “Ajith” flinging people in to corners and defeating them with the greatest of ease via dance-fighting. You know how there are always related/suggested videos on the lower-right-hand side of the page? One of the first ones was for “Ajith- rape scene- Godfather” or something similar…and I watched it and finally saw what so many people have referred to on SM. That was…disturbing.

24. The guy in the white shirt in the picture hardly looks like a starving laborer.

    you are right, i’ve not seen this kind of behaviour among the poorest classes. its the ‘lower middle class’ guys who behave this way. perhaps the explanation is that these guys are the ones who feel the most frustration (“so near and yet so far”) – the starving laborer guy probably doesn’t even think of himself as deserving treatment as a human.

25. All of us in Madras took buses and always had safety pins. We also knew who the trouble makers were and kept our distance.

    So let me get my coat on this. In a paternalistic society, where justice will always favor the man, a woman will be completely comfortable taking a pin and pricking guys that get their fondle on (and these men will inevitably do so because no one/nothing exists to prevent them)

    if this is the case, what’s to stop these men from claiming the woman is a pin crazy shrew who falsely accused him? Surely in the male dominated justice system, a guy could easily convince people he’s in the right, and the pin woman is in the wrong.

26. 275 · HMF said

    All of us in Madras took buses and always had safety pins. We also knew who the trouble makers were and kept our distance. So let me get my coat on this. In a paternalistic society, where justice will always favor the man, a woman will be completely comfortable taking a pin and pricking guys that get their fondle on (and these men will inevitably do so because no one/nothing exists to prevent them) if this is the case, what’s to stop these men from claiming the woman is a pin crazy shrew who falsely accused him? Surely in the male dominated justice system, a guy could easily convince people he’s in the right, and the pin woman is in the wrong.

    Yes, and No.

    In India, mob takes on things in their own hands – be it molesting, or meting out justice.

    India Today did a special few months ago – in India, mob often escalates into instant violence, like religious riots, beating up any offenders – true or false.

    In that article, they talked a number of stories where a woman just said, she was harassed, and the entire neighborhood/ crowd will pounce as a mob. They even had cases where a maid servant insinuated, and that person’s home was ransacked and was beaten, only to be found that it was false. Public beating/ fist fights are very common in India.

    It swings both ways.

    I gather you have not been to India much.

27. I gather you have not been to India much.

    I’ve never lived there, and living there is what it takes to understand this phenom I believe. although I’ve seen it to some degree, and what you’re saying doesn sound crazy.

    However, I’m pointing out two things that, at least in my view, seem contradictory:

    1. that women at large belong to the PDL (pin defense league) and carry them like white women in the US carry lipstick.
    2. that if these prickings were daily occurences (or even semi frquent) wouldn’t a male dominated sense of justice prevail and these women be collectively called out and disciplined? That is, if a society says women “asked for it” by simply wearing something that hangs more than 2 inches from the ground, wouldn’t they be “asking for it” by pricking men that in their eyes are “shady” “creepy”, etc…?

28. In a paternalistic society, where justice will always favor the man, a woman

    actually, in a pateranlistic society, justice can favor a women, as they are overprotected and treated like a precious commodity. in india, there are eve-teasing laws that protect against excessive staring.

    if this is the case, what’s to stop these men from claiming the woman is a pin crazy shrew who falsely accused him? Surely in the male dominated justice system, a guy could easily convince people he’s in the right, and the pin woman is in the wrong

    this is almost as convincing as your why don’t women create a seperate society for themselves argument. what world do you live in where you think this is a realistic argument? strawman world?

29. if this is the case, what’s to stop these men from claiming the woman is a pin crazy shrew who falsely accused him? Surely in the male dominated justice system, a guy could easily convince people he’s in the right, and the pin woman is in the wrong.

    Let me take my coat off (don’t worry, ladies, not in this way) and put my cap on. These women are not accusing the man, they are taking surreptitious defensive action as an alternative to bringing the roof down with their yells. The latter might sometimes work with a mob and sometimes it does not, but it also has the accompanying risk that the shamed assaulter (and potentially his buddies) will take revenge on the person. As Mytri pointed out, these are not one-shot interactions, but happen in the neighborhoods where women live and work. Moreover, a man who feels entitled enough to assault women will likely not accuse women of poking them with a needle or whatever, because it fundamentally goes against his self-perceived image of strength and machoness.

30. wouldn’t they be “asking for it” by pricking men that in their eyes are “shady” “creepy”, etc…?

    HMF, you’ve got your genders wrong. We are not talking about marauding mobs of women who randomly assault innocent men with their pricks, it is the other way around.

31. rahul:

    if what you’re saying is true, how do you explain the fact that these women don’t go out and create a seperate lesbian paradise-state. Huh? explain that, buddy!

32. Moreover, a man who feels entitled enough to assault women will likely not accuse women of poking them with a needle or whatever, because it fundamentally goes against his self-perceived image of strength and machoness.

    That makes no sense at all. If a guy feels entitled to a grab here or there, and that women should be flattered at such a grab, any effort to “defend” against it would be deemed as “overacting” or “being too sensitive”, moreover, since it is in itself, an act of violence (albeit a defensive one), it has a much higher chance of being contorted into an offensive one. (ie. that crazy b*tch pricked me, and I didnt do anything, she imagined it!) or whatever. And in a male-justice driven society, that’s exactly what would occur.

33. I’d be interested to know about some of these prickers, everyone seems to have loads of anecdotes so it shouldnt be a problem. What was the aftermath? did the guy just ho-hum sit quiet because his machoness would be threatened?

    That just seems bizarre, for someone who feels they’re entitled to a grab in the first place.

34. you can see the same thing in action when a guy in a car knocks down someone on a bike, and a crowd immediately gathers to render street justice to the car owner.

    How can you compare this to what happened at Juhu? The women in that incident were bothering no one, and the guy in your hypothetical case is guilty of hit and run, especially if he didn’t stop to help the cyclist after hitting him. So according to your logic any woman should expect to get assaulted by mob, for no reason at all and that’s because of economic injustices? This doesn’t make any sense.

35. by mob

    should read by a mob, sorry for the typo.

36. These women are not accusing the man

    I understand. but in the eyes of the men, they most likely they feel they’re being unduly pricked and accused. (even if they aren’t) and given india’s hatred of young, western dressing sluts, women, which POV is likely to be believed?

37. That makes no sense at all. If a guy feels entitled to a grab here or there, and that women should be flattered at such a grab, any effort to “defend” against it would be deemed as “overacting” or “being too sensitive”, moreover, since it is in itself, an act of violence (albeit a defensive one), it has a much higher chance of being contorted into an offensive one. (ie. that crazy b*tch pricked me, and I didnt do anything, she imagined it!) or whatever. And in a male-justice driven society, that’s exactly what would occur.

    You’re right, HMF. There are only two binaries: A society where everybody is treated absolutely equal, and a society where all prejudice and discrimination are overt, explicit, and with a paper trail in triplicate. These women are obviously claiming that India falls in the latter category. In fact, I believe Ambedkar was clamoring for the unfettered right to grope when he insisted on a constitutional ban on untouchability.

    Thank goodness things have been hunky dory for AA’s once the civil rights act was passed. Because, you know, the existence of a society where there are attitudes that foster, encourage, or maintain tacit prejudice is an impossibility.

38. SLUT It is amazing that this word is used(by scratching it off no less). You either have NO clue or are purposely being obtuse. I was talking about Madras 20 years ago where girls wore either salwars or sarees. Even today take a younger cousin sister and walk a few feet behind her. I will guarantee you that you will be ready to strike out at men who try to feel her up. If you are American-born, then you just have not observed it. We from India have learnt how to live with it. Yes we can scream once or twice. The guy will get thrashed THAT day, it does not solve the problem. I sincerely hope things are better now with more girls working. And the more trouble you create the more people will stare. I don’t care what others say, but an 18 year old girl in a traditional and yes, male-society is scared of the repercussions of that, which can be anything from severe eve-teasing to mob behaviour.

    You did not comment on the fact that a conductor on the bus asked for a young (~20) girl to be seated next to me and requesting my teenage son to sit next to the older man for the Bangalore-Mysore trip. He was genuinely looking out for the girl. I am not labelling the entire society as “pin-worthy”. And yes, a couple of elbows and the next time the lecher tries to keep a respectable distance. And yes, I have even stamped their chappalled feet ;-)with my high heels.

    I do take umbrage to your statement that only white women carry lipsticks in their purse. I carry 2 colors with me at ALL times, A red shade and a pink shade. I am sure that Anna and the rest of the SP ladies carry it too, eh??!! 😉

39. I’m still in awe that we are at nearly 300 comments and there are some men (and NO women) here who are maintaining that somehow this is “normal” because it’s mob mentality and bound to happen anywhere! I’m just baffled. Have you guys ever been to India? Have you ever been a woman?

40. Yogi, you’re right that doesn’t make sense. I didn’t say that though. I said you will see people gang up against the guy in the car regardless of his guilt, because they relish the opportunity to get back at one of the people from the social class that otherwise can do whatever it/they please.

41. Have you ever been a woman?

    Never, when I’ve been to India.

    Ippadikku, Rose

    P.S: The usage “Ippadikku” is equivalent to “Yours truly” when signing off on a mail.

42. These women are obviously claiming that India falls in the latter category.

    Wordplay not withstanding, that’s exactly my point. That the discrimination is not ‘explicit’ and ‘overt’ rather under the table and part of groupthink. Which is why I say, in the court of public opinion, a woman would have a more difficult time convincing those around her that she was correct in pricking. I would think a woman would prick someone only if a guy stopped short of doing the lambada with her, and it was clear beyond a doubt he was in the wrong.

    As you’re thinking up your next play on words, maybe you could read the words. (yeah, not rahul level wordsmithing, but I grant myself an A for effort)

43. SLUT It is amazing that this word is used(by scratching it off no less). You either have NO clue or are purposely being obtuse. I was talking about Madras 20 years ago where girls wore either salwars or sarees

    Ugh you people need lessons in hyperbole. I was assuming the mindset of the guy who does the feel/grope in the first place. ie: no matter what a woman wears, does, etc.. she’s essentially “asking for it”

44. I was assuming the mindset of the guy who does the feel/grope in the first place. ie: no matter what a woman wears, does, etc.. she’s essentially “asking for it”.

    Violating a woman is so much more than simply assuming that she’s “asking for it”. It’s about power and essentially men do in the open and as boldly because they can and know they’ll get away with it and probably think a slap or so is worth it.

45. Violating a woman is so much more than simply assuming that she’s “asking for it”.

    Of course it is. but it certainly includes an attitude of entitlement or self-justification. But that would prove my point even further, in stating that a woman who pin pricked would have a difficult job justifying her action, in the court of public opinion.

46. But that would prove my point even further, in stating that a woman who pin pricked would have a difficult job justifying her action, in the court of public opinion.

    Hate to say it but if a woman is smart enough and harrassed enough to obviously arm herself with a pin to prink a man that might violate her she’s not acknowleding that the jerk touched her. She metted out her justice the way she knows best since obviously lack of getting her own justice so far has made her reach this point.

47. 295 · HMF said

    But that would prove my point even further, in stating that a woman who pin pricked would have a difficult job justifying her action, in the court of public opinion.

    but what is your point? the fact that indian women do not fear being arrested for pin-pricking proves what exactly?

48. According to some this imperfect world can only be understood through the prism of racism and poverty.

49. She metted out her justice the way she knows best since obviously lack of getting her own justice so far has made her reach this point.

    Huh? without ack’ing the cause for pricking in the first place, it would make it even harder to justify the pin prick if ever called out on it. (which, given the disposition of the men who feel they can ‘get away’ with a grope or feel, would be the logical thing to do)

    I still haven’t heard anyone follow up their anecdotes with a recount of the aftermath, did the prickee say or do anything in return?

    but what is your point? the fact that indian women do not fear being arrested for pin-pricking proves what exactly?

    No, I’m questioning the extent that this pin pricking takes place, and if it’s effective in the least.

50. 299 · HMF said

    No, I’m questioning the extent that this pin pricking takes place, and if it’s effective in the least.

    you’re questioning the extent and effectiveness of pin-pricking by pointing out that the pin-prickers do not fear the indian justice system?

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