Soon after New Year’s Eve, we began receiving tips about a dreadful incident in Bombay involving two young couples who were on vacation (Thanks, Rahul and many others):
A mob of 70-80 men groped and molested two young women for some 15 minutes on a busy main street in Mumbai’s glamour district Juhu early on New Year’s Day.
An identical incident had shamed India’s safest city exactly a year ago — a girl was molested by New Year’s eve revellers at the Gateway of India. That incident was captured on film by a popular Mumbai tabloid; Tuesday morning’s horror was shot by two Hindustan Times lensmen who happened to be on the spot.
The women — one in a black dress, the other in a jeans and top — emerged from the JW Marriott with two male friends around 1.45 am, and began walking towards Juhu beach close by.
A mob of about 40 got after them and began teasing the women. One of the women swore loudly at the hooligans.
But the mob, now 70-80 strong, wouldn’t let go. They trapped the women near a vehicle and a tree, and pounced on them. A man in a white shirt tore off the black dress. Another, in a blue shirt, led the assault. As the women fell on the ground, dozens of men jumped on them. [HT]
The story and the wide-spread, collective anger it inspired grew considerably when the Police Inspector tasked with the case expressed himself in a regrettably insensitive way:
The comments of the Mumbai police commissioner, DN Jadhav further enraged the people: “Don’t make a mountain out of a molehill. Keep your wives at home if you want them safe. This kind of small things can happen anywhereâ€. [meri]
Excellent. Two women who were brutalized deserved it because they were out and about, instead of in the kitchen. While a few Mumbaikars agreed with that unfortunate view, others certainly did not:
Arjun Ghai, executive with an MNC says, “The act was shameful but the attitude of the police in this regard is even worse. If MF Hussain puts up his paintings or a Hollywood star kisses a Bollywood actress, the Shiv Sainiks come to life, but what about such cases? It is the people of our great nation who need to be blamed. I am sure those who were involved in this gruesome act had sisters and wives sitting at home. Did they think about them even for an instance? No wonder we are living among vultures ready to pounce on the flesh of vulnerable women at the drop of a hat.â€
Mira Sud, boutique owner opines, “I heard someone say that the girls might have been drunk or led the guys on. This is absolutely crazy. In a nation like ours where we worship Sita and Laxmi, people tend to lose their moral sense at times. Claiming that a woman might have been drunk is no reason or excuse. What about those instances where the men get drunk and pounce on women? Nobody blames them. In this male-dominated society of ours, we tend to blame the female gender without even considering the situation.â€[meri]
Thankfully, someone contradicted Jadhav:
The state’s Deputy Chief Minister R R Patil made a statement saying, that the police chief’s reaction was inappropriate and that the government was taking the matter seriously. [NDTV]
As I alluded to earlier, some of the more retrograde opinions (which I didn’t care to publicize or quote) declared that these women were “asking for it” by behaving shamelessly and not respecting traditions which apparently involve always staying at home, lest one entice a helpless man to molestation. Well, these weren’t disobedient, frisky, fornicating teens on the beach (not that they’d deserve any of this either).
The newly-wed, NRI couple who faced humiliation at the hands of a mob in Juhu on New Year’s eve, had married in a traditional ceremony in Gujarat just a day before the incident…
Hiten Patel and his wife had come down to Mumbai along with Hiten’s cousin and his wife a day after their wedding to bring in the New Year. The couple wanted to holiday in India for a fortnight before flying back home.
Hundreds of their friends and relatives from the US had flown down to India for the wedding. Hiten’s uncle Sunil Patel told TOI, “Hiten was born in the US and has lived in Texas. He runs his family-owned chain of motels. His wife is pursuing her MBA in the US and theirs was an arranged match.”
The couple is still in a state of shock following the molestation. Hiten’s wife has said she’s trying to “get over the horror” while expressing her anger over the fact that bystanders had not come to their rescue. But when Hiten spoke to TOI, he said there were some people in the crowd who tried to “help us pick up our belongings. I have not lodged a police complaint since I do not want the wrong people to be booked.” [TOIlet]
Do some of these the so-called traditionalists feel a little sorry for condemning these women, now that we know they were so obedient and homely, one of them allowed her parents to choose her husband? Sorry, what’s that? All I hear is crickets chirping. Now it is two weeks later, and the alleged culprits are denying involvement:
The Juhu molestation case accused on Wednesday said that they were innocent. Addressing the media, the accused who are out on bail, said that they were merely onlookers who were pushed by a crowd on the New Year’s Eve, and the photographers clicked the wrong persons.
The men, in a belligerent outburst, accused the media of jumping too fast to their own conclusions. One of them said that he was not even there at the spot when the incident occurred.
“We were returning from dinner and saw a crowd of 150 surrounding two couples. We became curious and got thrown into the scene. The photographers just clicked our pictures and the police took us for interrogation,†the accused said. [Zee]
But wait! There’s MORE. These men don’t know when to shut up, but that flaw gave me my title for this post, so a microscopic thank you to these perverts for that:
The men didn’t stop at that clarification. They said that while the newspapers splashed ‘molestation’ pictures, they did not write a word about how the girls in question were drunk.
“The couples were in an inebriated state. They were smooching on the road. What were they expecting?â€, they said. [Zee]
If this outrageous molestation of a new bride and her cousin wasn’t revolting enough, unfortunately several other instances of assault are in the news, some of them involving tourists, which has helped muddy India’s name on an international-scale.
Over New Year’s Eve, cases of molestation of tourists were reported both in Mumbai and Kochi.
A British journalist has alleged she was raped by the owner of the guesthouse in Udaipur where she was staying last week.
In another incident in Rajasthan, a 28-year-old American tourist was allegedly molested by a priest in front of a temple in the Hindu pilgrim town of Pushkar. The priest was subsequently arrested. [MalaysianSun]
2007 wasn’t so great for female travelers, either:
In March last year, the son of an important police official, was found guilty of raping a German researcher in Rajasthan.
Also last year, a Japanese tourist complained that she was drugged and raped by a group of men in Pushkar.
The latest report from the National Crime Records Bureau shows there has been a phenomenal eight-fold increase in rapes in India since 1971. [MalaysianSun]
About that appalling increase in rapes– Chachaji posted a link on the news tab which discusses exactly that chilling upward trend:
The latest crime statistics, pertaining to 2006, released by the Home Ministry’s National Crime Records Bureau (NCRB) show that every hour 18 women become victims of crime. The number of rapes a day has increased nearly 700 per cent since 1971 — when such cases were first recorded by NCRB. It has grown from seven cases a day to 53.
The figure grew 5.5 per cent over the number of cases registered in 2005.
In comparison, all other crimes have grown by 300 per cent since 1953 when the NCRB started keeping records.
And these are just the cases that have been reported; the number of unreported cases is far higher. [HT]
Now that last bit has been on my mind while wading through all of these links that so many of you mutineers were kind enough to send in– is there an increase in the number of rapes or an increase in the number of rapes which are being reported?
According to NCRB figures, among 35 cities with a population of more than a million, Delhi topped the list of crimes against women with 4,134 cases (nearly one-fifth of the total crimes against women). One-third of the rapes and a fifth of the molestations took place in the city. Hyderabad was second most dangerous for women with 1,755 cases.
Among the states, Andhra Pradesh had the highest number of crimes committed against women — 21,484 cases or 13 per cent of the total cases in 2006. Uttar Pradesh was a close second, with 9.9 per cent of such crimes. Madhya Pradesh reported the highest number of rape cases, at 2,900, and also molestation cases. [HT]
Frustration is palpable, and not surprising. Tourism is important to Incredible India. Beyond that, regular ol’ Indians and NRIs are rightfully angered by such ugly acts. Yes, India has a conflicted view of women; for all the negativity associated with issues like infanticide, dowry deaths and other well-known social ills, there is also a strain of that so-called “traditionalism” (which the accused disgustingly attempted to use as justification for their reprehensible actions) which is protective of women. India is that complicated and that simple.
In DC, desi cab drivers in their idling Crown Victorias duck slightly to peer at stranger-me, their faces filled with worry, until I unlock the inner doors to my apartment lobby, enter and wave gratefully– they hear these news stories and feel anguish as they replace the victims at Juhu with their own kin. They worry out loud that India is changing and for the worse. Why do they wait to make sure I’m safely inside those glass doors? Because during my ride home from work or Trader Joe’s, they’re telling me about how they have a daughter my age or a niece who also took her Master’s at GW. There are more of these men than those who emulate the after-goodies mob at Juhu, but they will be obscured by all this scandal.
It must be so frustrating; at a time when so many exciting, promising things are happening in India, what is a foreign country going to cover– the Nano or the brutal rape of one of their female citizens? Even if they publish stories on both, which will retain the most mindshare, especially among those who are predisposed to believe the worst?
What the perpetrators of these sexual assaults fail to understand is that in commiting these lust-fueled, power-hungry attacks, they don’t just bruise or traumatize innocent women; they thoughtlessly and recklessly give their country a black eye, as well. If nothing else convinces these assholes to keep their hands to themselves, perhaps it might be effective to convey to them that a Cricket-related slight isn’t the only reason to obsess over India’s reputation; if they care so much about their country’s honor because of an unfair decision in Australia, they should spare a thought for India’s honor off the pitch, too.
Join an Indian call center.
India should legalize prostitution. That will help alleviate (though never eradicate) troubling things like HIV infections, kidnapping of teenage girls for sex slavery. The US should legalize it too in every state. But that’s for another blog.
That’s ridiculous, you’re just grinding the axe you have against Gujaratis. ANYONE could find themselves the victim of a mob, whether they ever supported mob violence in the past OR NOT.
I still don’t see friends who are girls riding the bus/train in the US/Europe on a daily basis worry/think about the casual groping/rubbing that’s pervasive especially in Delhi. It happens elsewhere, sure, but it’s a question of order of magnitude. If you’re arguing this happens on the same wide scale and daily basis as in the US or France, that’s quite simply ludicrous. Talk to my cousins in India and talk to others that live in nyc; it just doesn’t compare.
The very fact that India (and Pakistan and Bangladesh) have this peculiar euphemism called ‘eve-teasing’ (that’s incredibly prevalent and still quite commonly used) for molesting/groping should raise some alarm bells. I was in Bombay when this came up and my cousins, even some aunts!, nodded gravely and mentioned some stories/incidents that they just have to brush off as “oh that was just eve-teasing. it’s terrible but what can you do?”. I repeat: this doesn’t happen in such a regular way here. And the police generally take it pretty seriously here (ie: I’ve seen incidents reported and the perpetrator arrested and sentenced).
This isn’t about bashing India, no need to get illogically defensive. Look, I love the place, but we need to be honest about some problems that are more common there (as they might be in Egypt, or to a lesser degree, Korea/Japan or Italy). It’s a fact, let’s face it; and the anecdotes are shockingly universal. Besides, by saying ‘hey it happens everywhere’ we ignore societally-specific circumstances and potential solutions (both short- and long-term) to this pervasive problem.
This phenomenon is clearly not limited to India. Hell, even during a recent Jets games, drunks were out of control severely verbally harassing women to take off their clothes in one area of the stadium. What is interesting about India is all these pronouncements of culture and women’s modesty and yet this happens so openly and it takes the media to get a response from the authorities.
Sorry, a little late on the commenting, but: Bombay, at least the way it has been portrayed to me my whole life, was always a “female-empowerment” city. Mumba Devi lent her name to the city (the Mahalaxmi temple), actresses were making just as many rupees as actors, and we could wear jeans with our designer hand bags and kurtis (and not get looked at by men as if they had never seen a woman before–this has happend to me in the south several times), most importantantly women were powerful in the workforce beginning years ago. This incident and the one from last year at the Gateway are certainly frightening, sad, and make me furious–not just with the city, but all of India. I am almost glad to see the number of reported rapes has increased because I don’t think it is an actual 8-fold increase, but a very important increase in reporting. I can’t tell you how many times I have wanted to report, or even just tell someone besides a friend, what happend to me. ANNA, as you said about the womens’ husbands, I can’t even imagine their horror. I think, ironically enough, that the calls for a change in attitude cannot just come from womens’ organizations, mothers, wives, or sisters. Obviously, these bastards were not thinking of them when they did this despicable deed. Now, I am the last one to make a blanket statement about all desi men in general so I don’t want anyone to get the wrong impression but: I think the Bombay men, the Dehli men, Indian men in power, public, position need to step up, speak up and well, be a man.
No one is saying sexual assault is an Indian problem. Many however are saying that the attitude of society and law enforcement leaves much to be desired. Many are also saying that it is a qualitatively different experience for a woman to walk down the street, take a bus, etc. in India than in say the US, in terms of groping and harassment. This is true in my experience too.
So what? There is still this everyday problem of “eve-teasing” which occurs with higher frequency in India.
She´s describing her subjective experience which I and I think many other women can relate to.
I think that responses like “sexual assaults/mass molestations happen everywhere, why target India” are missing the point that everyday sexual harassment seems to be more frequent, and it doesn´t matter what you wear. You don´t have to be out at night or alone, etc. in short you don´t have to be doing anything foolhardy or unusual. And this harassment is very burdensome to many women if not all, I daresay. Law enforcement in sexual assault and harassment matters should be improved, but this everyday stuff is too widespread to be handled by law enforcement.
I can vouch for some of that. I’ve been on busy subways in several cities in Europe, including but not limited to Amsterdam, Paris, London, Berlin, Vienna, Rome. Furthermore I’ve been up and about at ungodly hours in several of these cities. Never been harassed or groped. I’m not saying that it doesn’t happen. Maybe my experience is even exceptional. But there’s no denying that the scale and the systematicness is much larger in a country where a woman garners no respect.
I’m not saying that it doesn’t happen. Maybe my experience is even exceptional. But there’s no denying that the scale and the systematicness is much larger in a country where a woman garners no respect.
Yes, I agree…no one is denying sexual assaults don’t happen in the US or other Western countries. When I walk from the metro late at night, considering the neighborhood I’m in, I try and rush home quickly (i live in DC) and robbery or sex assault is of course a fear as in any city.
But the sexual badgering and patriarchy and role of women as slut or virgin, is part and parcel of many of India’s institutions including the local police and much more entrenched in what is tolerated or appropriate for men to act. I can get on a crowded metro in DC during rush in DC and expect NOT to be sexually harrassed and anyone that does that can expect imo very few people on the metro to agree with their lewd, and likely illegal acts.
If I get on a bus in Kerala (and I’m not allowed to get on the buses in Kerala), I can EXPECT to be sexually harassed according to my Kerala family members. More work needs to be done in Indian society on that fact that degrading women is not acceptable and what a women’s rights are.
This was painful to read. Being newly married I just spent 3 weeks on honeymoon in India traveling thru the very same places in Mumbai and Rajasthan including Pushkar and Udaipur etc. I too like this new bride went out with my cousins and their husbands and my husband’s cousins to the JW Marriott and Shiro till the wee hours of night and had too much to drink. I can’t imagine for the life of me had something happened to me anyone justifying my being out with my husband drinking as the cause for getting attacked. This is so disgusting.
I have such a bad taste in my mouth but frankly I really don’t know what the solution to something like this other than carrying a weapon with you that could hurt and not kill someone and scare off the rest in a situation like this. Sexual repression aside how do you fix that? I don’t condone people going out and having mindless premarital sex. Hell I don’t know if the general population is capable of that. I think the general hypocritical traditional mindsets that judge people for natural behavior and the unreasonable importance given to virginity need to die. How I’m not sure.
Thru all my travels there was only one occassion in Jodhpur where we were followed in the market by a group of men. But thru all my travels I felt completely safe in India despite traveling to UP and MP (where locals told me some pretty horrible stories and warned me about not even stepping out of the car till I was told to do so) Honestly I also found dressing traditionally and modestly brought little (very little) less attention onto me than when I wore something I would here. Forget the short skirts and strapless tops business. I’m talking about things I’d wear to even work here. Trying to be as non discript as possible helped for sure especially outside of Mumbai.
I grew up in Mumbai. There really are some things you learn from living in Mumbai and traveling in public transportation. When approaching men on the street/in a crowd etc always fold your hands across your chest and face away from them when passing them. This comes naturally to you if you grew up in India and it’s a sad learnt behavior but there are so many things we take for granted in the US that we shouldn’t in India. Women who go there really need to be prepped for this.
To those that are offended at the notion that “women are generally treated as less worthy” in India here is a personal sobering observation. Going to India with a husband comes with a completely different set of perks/respect that do not exist for you if you are single and I’m talking about how you get treated by your own family. And yeah apparently being married is some incredible achievement because despite any of your own personal accomplishments, no matter how religious, no matter how kind, good (insert any positive adjective here) if you are a woman without a husband in India you are up shit creek. Things I took for granted with how people behaved with me changed completely because I suddenly had a husband and I can’t even begin to recant all the different experiences but it made me really angry. Women without a husband are generally even if it’s in the mildest form treated poorly period.
I second the above (particularly with respect to delhi); delhi is probably one of the more uncivilized and uncouth cities in the world…especially with respect to (a lot of) peoples’ attitudes towards women. the kind of things that cause a furor in mumbai is actually pretty commonplace in delhi (this is not to mumbai’s credit, by the way; i’m just making a comparison).
Ok, for all of you, who are intent on saying “Why talk about India when the U.S. is just as bad with respect to sexual assault and misogyny”, here you go: a link to the NYTimes, editorial section, where the writer discuses the effects of latent misogyny and sexism in the United States, including the dehumanizing effects of legal prostitution and hard core pornography. Which some commentors here seem to advocate as a way to prevent sexual assault or eve-teasing. Sure, avoid one dehumanizing act by advocating another. That’ll work. (To be clear, that’s dripping with sarcasm – so I don’t get accused of favoring something which I actually oppose.)
Satisfied that the U.S. was thrown into the mix? I doubt that you are.
Maybe you’d rather just chee chee, and avoid discussing what “shining” India can do to combat the sexual assaults or eve-teasing and just let it stay India’s secret. It’s just boys being boys after all. No point in destroying the image that everything Indian is golden. We need those tourist dollars and after all those women were asking for it by wearing western clothes and for kissing their newly-wedded husband or boyfriend. Perhaps that’s good enough for you until it’s your daughter or relative that is felt up on a visit to the “motherland”. But then again, she must have deserved it because she was simply a woman wearing western clothing. Or is it simply because she’s a woman. But hey, it happens in the U.S., so it must be good enough for India too.
a significant proportion of the indian population still resides in the medieval ages when it comes to attitudes towards women; as many have pointed out above there seems to be two “ideal types” of women in the minds of these medievals. the one who is “modest”, keeps her head down or is married seemingly deserves “respect” (whatever the f…k that means) and the other that is too “uppity”, does not necessarily conform to these antediluvian norms is fair game (though from jane’s description above it seems that even these distinctions are immaterial in north india). hopefully the many (and thankfully there are many) women’s movements in india will address these fundamental habits of thought among some frankly uncivilized men (and also some women).
The sad thing about all these terrible notions is that in my perception Indian women like the average mom/aunt/grandma in a family do so much more and make so many sacrifices daily sacrifices. To not garner them respect by virtue of their gender is just heartbreaking because majority of the sacrifices are done for the male gender.
this has been a very balanced discussion so far.i think comparisons between america and india don’t help. india must solve its own problems if india is to continue to develop as a progressive society. the attitude of law enforcement is deplorable. what these kinds of open discussions in the media achieve is that women who read them will feel empowered, will not feel that on some level”they asked for it” and will come forward against their attackers.
for instance, about 15 years ago, there was a young woman who was serially gang raped over a period of years –she allowed the assault to continue rather that going to the authorities because the rapists had taken pictures of her in compromising positions and blackmailed her –this young woman made the choice to allow being raped repeatedly rather than face some so called compromising pictures being made public to society–this to me was a heart breaking choice. unless society and media have open and frank discussions about these topics, how will women gain the courage to stand up to these things?
Sure, avoid one dehumanizing act by advocating another. That’ll work
wait a minute. those two aren’t nearly equivalent in their levels of ‘dehumanization’ one is a willful act by the “dehumanized” sure we can go on and discuss the society & environment that creates a class of women who feel their only recourse is to dehumanize themselves and become prostitutes or adult film stars or what have you, but that’s not the equivalent of two women strolling down the street and getting pounced on.
But would more lax attitudes towards pornography/prostitution mitigate these types of outbursts? Well, if you start with the presupposition that mass committed sexual assualt is disproportionate in places such as India, you must look at traits which are unique to India, and attitudes towards sexuality, hell even “healthy” ones, such as male-female interaction are completely off the wall.
A guy can’t even walk down the street next to a girl without the entire street thinking they are in bed.
Women without a husband are generally even if it’s in the mildest form treated poorly period.
The same is true the other way around (ie men without a wife) but not nearly as bad, I agree.
And I never said otherwise. My point is law and order has to be be maintained and there are no special times when it can be acceptable to look the other way at random mob violence. I just want to remind people of this the next time I see them make excuses for mob violence unchecked by the government authorities in the future. The cops must do their duty at all times. We cannot express selective outrage and expect cops to be professional all of a sudden.
And I strongly disagree with anyone that thinks this has to do with sexual repression or finding a sexual outlet. violence and degradation against women are done by all kinds of men…as one commentator stated, this is a power and control issue for the individual and also perhaps for the dominant discourse in Indian culture today.
I have to wonder what my mom would think if she heard about this incident. Even though I’m sure she’d disagree with what those women endured, I’m sure she’d feel the only way to prevent this, is NOT education for the men as well as prison sentences, but to stop women from “going out” at night and acting “loose” even if you are not. My mom’s been in the US for some 30 some years, and she comes from a family where 30 years ago her female cousin became a doctor in Kerala, but I’m sure she’d lay the burden on the women.
I’ll start off by clarifying my stand on two issues: 1) yes, it was a crime. The guilty should be punished. 2) The women did not bring it upon themselves.
The point I have to make is, these women(and their escorts) were not smart enough to get away from a harmful environment when they should have. Its all good to advocate how a woman should have the right to go where she wants, when she wants, wearing what ever she wants. I’m for that too. But the truth of the matter is Bombay and many Indian cities are NOT SAFE beyomd certain hours. And if you have a crowd of seedy people following you, the best thing you can do is get away. Yelling at them is not the smartest thing to do. No matter where in the world, its prudent to be aware of your surroundings and do your bit to stay out of harms way. Chauvinistic Indians (particularly Mumbaikars) will tell you how great their city is and how liberated women are. Now you know. I’m from Bangalore and this reminds me of another incident some years back. A white couple on holiday went searching for pot in some slum in Bangalore late at night. The guy sensed a bad situation (duh!) and sent his girlfreind back to the hotel in an auto. Before the next morning, he got killed for petty cash and she got raped by the auto driver. So much for liberated Indian cities. I’d argue that no matter what city in the wrold, you’d be smart not be in the wrong palce at the wrong time.
@79:
Chetna-
I beg to differ. Men/Boys in crowded buses/trains/public places get felt over ( assaulted too). I am not going into details…..
A lot of people will be offended by the statement but it is time to talk about the influence of Arab culture in countries ruled by Muslims. The machismo culture in Spain and Sicily is a product of Muslim rule. It later spread to Latin America with the Spanish conquest. Everybody will admit there is a great difference between treatment of women in North India which experienced a long period of Muslim rule with treatment of women in regions of South India which did not experience Muslim rule.
Um.. you should perhaps take a look at Tamil machismo (or your average Tamil film) before coming up with such amusing hypotheticals. You do understand that there is/was something called Indo-Muslim culture which, if anything, “indianized” whatever survived in north India. Also, what about the machismo culture in the rest of Italy? I don’t recall Arab conquests of the Vatican in my history books. This is a pointless digression.
Its a shame but why stay long at a place where men will get uncontrollably drunk ? Blaming the police is not the right thing, FIR was not filed because the victim did not want it & did not want any media also : TOI interview Btw the headline says ‘Drunk women’ I don’t think they were but its not anyones ‘moral imperative’ to protect a drunk person. The increased exposure taking place because of globalization would take a while to sink in, but Tourists & NRIs are not smart enough/aware of the situation to evade attracting attention as much as the local girls.
Mel I don’t think there is anything remotely in this incident that justifies bringing in Muslim influence, Bombay is not north. It breaks my heart that this happened in Mumbai, I think this was mob dynamics at play and I will be careful in sweeping the whole city with a broad brush. I still maintain that the city is one of the safest places for single women even late at night, what happened on New Year’s Eve was unfortunate and does not in anyway define the city. I have close family and friends that routinely work long hours and don’t think twice before taking public transport or taxis home. I would like to believe that the attitudes are changing, and it is due to public cooperation most of the accused were identified within days.
DesiDawg : I don’t see where I said that all Indian men are animals or anything that would imply that. I am not exaggerating my experience though. It is not that you get groped every single time you step out, by every single man you come across. But it can happen at any time, and it happens often enough for you to never let down your guard down.
Why is this about India vs. U.S. ? What does it matter whether this does or does not happen in the US ? I don’t understand the defensive stance. I don’t think Indian men are evil, or that they are born genetically disposed to treat women disrespectfully. I don’t think it is because they are sexually repressed. As someone very correctly pointed out in this thread it is about power and entitlement. It is also about what society views as acceptable. We indians have to ask ourselves what in our social structure, in our culture and traditions, in the way we bring up our boys, in our media, supports such behavior. And we cannot look at ourselves clearly if we are so defensive and insecure.
Law enforcement can go a long way in solving this problem, but it is also about social attitudes. Most of these incidents are not reported at all – because really are you going to raise an alarm because some man groped you, are you going to go to the police, face their scrutiny and that of other people. Are you ready to have people speculate whether you were drunk, or dressed decently. Most women choose to just walk away rather than face all that. I have done it myself. The women in Juhu were willing to do just that. There is a sense of shame and humiliation that you feel everytime something like this happens, even though your mind and your logic tells you that it is not your fault. I cannot explain it except to say it is degrading and to fight it needs courage. For women to overcome these feelings and for men to stop doing this, we need social attitudes to change.
About my remarks regarding the role of movies : I don’t think people take what happens in movies to be literally true. But they do establish a sense of what is acceptable behavior. And it troubles me that in Tamil movies, abusing women is shown as a “manly” thing to do. In one movie, I forget which, Madhavan hits his girlfriend and then apologizes saying ” I am a man. Thats why i hit you when I got angry”. Some apology that ! But often even the semblance of an apology is missing. It is very matter of fact : of course he is a man, this is how he will behave, he has a right to behave this way. The lowest of the low is a movie called Godfather. In that Ajith, the hero of the movie, rapes a woman who she refuses to marry him because she finds him too effeminate. He proves his manliness by this act. Once again, it is the woman’s fault – how dare she reject him ! And these are mainstream actors – Madhavan and Ajith, not some fringe b-grade actors or movies.
172 · vishal said
In my title, I am referring to an article/the latest development in the case, wherein the accused deny charges and are outraged that they are being pilloried in the media while “no one is mentioning how those girls were drunk!” That’s deplorable and pathetic.
That’s a rather disturbing sentiment. 🙁 Drunk people are asking for whatever they get? Perhaps you can clarify? IMO, it’s a moral imperative to try and help any person who needs it, whether they had champagne on NYE or not. The insidious, persistent strains of “they were asking for it” which exist on this thread are disappointing. There is no justification for what happened to these women. None.
We indians have to ask ourselves what in our social structure, in our culture and traditions, in the way we bring up our boys, in our media, supports such behavior.
Well for one, having a society that disallows male-female interaction pre-age 25 could be a part of it.
choose to just walk away rather than face all that. I have done it myself. The women in Juhu were willing to do just that. There is a sense of shame and humiliation that you feel everytime something like this happens, even though your mind and your logic tells you that it is not your fault. I cannot explain it except to say it is degrading and to fight it needs courage. For women to overcome these feelings and for men to stop doing this, we need social attitudes to change.
About my remarks regarding the role of movies : I don’t think people take what happens in movies to be literally true. But they do establish a sense of what is acceptable behavior. And it troubles me that in Tamil movies, abusing women is shown as a “manly” thing to do. In one movie, I forget which, Madhavan hits his girlfriend and then apologizes saying ” I am a man. Thats why i hit you when I got angry”. Some apology that ! But often even the semblance of an apology is missing. It is very matter of fact : of course he is a man, this is how he will behave, he has a right to behave this way. The lowest of the low is a movie called Godfather. In that Ajith, the hero of the movie, rapes a woman who she refuses to marry him because she finds him too effeminate. He proves his manliness by this act. Once again, it is the woman’s fault – how dare she reject him ! And these are mainstream actors – Madhavan and Ajith, not some fringe b-grade actors or movies
God, it’s sick what’s shown as acceptable behaviour.
But I’ve felt the same way, for a long time, of many of bollywood’s movies too. I haven’t really watched Tamil movies, but the descriptions that people in SM have given —- will I ever forget the discussion of low-caste depictions in Tamil cinema —- of what happens in Tamil cinema seems worse.
Anyways, I remember that movie, Devdas —- I know it was set in the past, but I was so disturbed by that one scene when SRK’s character strikes Rai’s character in the head with some locket, and the mark it left her was not a mark of disgrace for SRK’s character, but a mark of almost love or ownership. I love so many parts of that movie – the singing the dancing, the costumes….but why oh why do they have some stupid scene like that, that condones SRK’s character’s violence against Rai’s character.
Anyways, I remember that movie, Devdas —- I know it was set in the past, but I was so disturbed by that one scene when SRK’s character strikes Rai’s character in the head with some locket, and the mark it left her was not a mark of disgrace for SRK’s character, but a mark of almost love or ownership. I love so many parts of that movie – the singing the dancing, the costumes….but why oh why do they have some stupid scene like that, that condones SRK’s character’s violence against Rai’s character.
It is just not a stupid scene.
First, Devdas is not only a movie. It is based on a very well known novel by Bakhim Chandra Chatterjee that stands on the frontline in the annals of Indian literature, and Devdas hitting Paroo is central to the novel to show fit of arrogance, and jealousy, and derailing a lifelong love for which he suffers the whole life.
They have at least 3 Devdas movies made from Bombay film industry – first has Saighal, the most famous one has Dilip Kumar-Suchitra Sen-Vijanthimala directed by Bimal Roy, and the third one is SRK. The second one is considered to be a master piece.
Correction: Devdas (Hindi: देवदास, Urdu: دیوداس) is a Bollywood film based on the Sharat Chandra Chattopadhyay novella, Devdas.
Agreed. Societal changes take forever to come about. Daughters are considered burdensome by many in India. In many Hindi movies the sexually assaulted female character (usually the hero’s sister) promptly commits suicide. What a disturbing message to send. When will Hindi movies have female role models who stand up for themselves and are not self sacrificing martyrs.
I am sorry I am just rambling, this story makes me mad.
It is kind of disturbing. Imagine if a drunk guy got raped by a gay guy.
While I agree with your general point about Tamil movies: If you are referring to Yuva/Ayudha Ezhuthu here, that case is different since Madhavan portrays an impassioned brute in that role, and the relationship is supposed to be a co-dependent one. I don’t think that should be seen as a depiction of acceptable behavior (don’t remember if Alaipaayuthey had something similar, but it would have been different in that case).
That said, I think Mani Rathnam is subtly poisonous in another way in his general portrayal of women (in all his films) as carefree, ebullient, and often spirited before marriage, but gradually becoming beholden to their husbands after marriage, and completely subjugating their personalities and desires in service of what should be their overarching goal: preservation of their marriage and “thaali bhagyam”. (There are many other reasons why I dislike Mani saar, and consider him a hack, but this is a big one). Of course, regressiveness when portrayed in soft focus and with great camerawork is considered art.
Thanks for the backdrop ;I knew it was an old story and part of India’s literary history but I’m not familiar with it.
I don’t mean to degrade India’s literary traditions…perhaps Indian movie-goers didn’t see this as an overt act of violence and a condoning of acts of violence against women. But that’s what I saw as an Indian-American watching the movie, and an Indian-American, w/o the appreciation for this story’s place in India’s literary history….but does that make a difference?
I am not at all sure about this!
If you are talking about becoming totally wasted then yes, when you know that you wont be able to think rationally & continue on that path knowing what dangers you might be getting into, you can’t hold a stranger to question why did not you help, its a prerogative & not a duty. You can only hope for more people to act on their prerogative. Perhaps this is thinking extreme on my part, I am against exposing yourself to intoxication in any way.
Its sad that the victims were so badly traumatized, first by the drunk animals & then the all-day-breaking-news-in-a-loop media.
Oh good to know I was not the only one who did not like Mani Rathnam’s Roja for the very reasons you so clearly articulate.
I respect your view on this vishal, though I don’t hold the same. However, are you saying that if you happen to see a woman/man/whoever on the street, intoxicated, but also being harmed in some way, you would not help them? Even if it was just a “hey, stop that!” yell? What, and I am not saying this should/could/would happen, but what if it was a person you knew? A female you knew? Wouldn’t you want someone in the vicinity of the incident to help them? or at least try?
When my mother died a few months ago at her funeral the vast majority of comforting words from people were “At least she got to see you get engaged, she finally let go knowing you will be taken care of and she didn’t have to worry so much about you like she always did.”
All I can say is WHAT THE FUCK!! My mother was seriously ill and in the ICU for a long time but only 57 years old!
I would try to help of course but the sense I take ‘drunks asking for it’ is to be prepared with the thought that nobody is obliged to help you in that state & realize that many people do not.
Sorry about posting info on Devdas on other thread.
Complete significance of Devdas as a novella, and enduring film project for last 80 years is found here.
Just to be clear, this whole “falling down drunk” discussion may not even apply to the married couples who were assaulted.
Jane I’m really sorry to hear about your Mum, and what makes me sad about the comments you got is I’m sure the people saying them thought they were comforting you. It’s really indicative of what I’ve always felt is India’s (and its diaspora’s) biggest ailment – women’s status. With regard to what you wrote above (being tempted to carry a weapon), I find it hard to disagree. My gf grew up in the Middle East. Different country, same behaviour. Some of the things she’s told me disgust me and it’s also sad she just grew used to these things.
Anna I must confess I don’t have time to read all the comments at the mo. Of course this recent case is one I had read about – but just since the turn of 2008 NDTV has reported on several such cases. A tourist was molested in a temple and a woman was stripped and badly beaten in Andhra (which you mention as being one of the worst offenders). I saw the video of that one, perhaps 100 on-lookers and only one guy tried to help her. No charges brought as far as I’m aware.
I’m glad you blogged this Anna but sadly if you are to document every case like this in India, it would be an active blog in itself.
HMF,
I can’t get inside the heads of the attackers. The history of sexual assualt and rape is about power. I therefore don’t believe that having a “healthier” discussion of sexuality would prevent an attack from happening, especially, where the attacker was simply seeking to gratify his/her desire to placate his own inferiority or act out a feeling of entitlement. I don’t have stats to back that up, other than the fact that sexual assault occurs in the U.S. and it allegedly has a “healthier” sexual attitude than in India. I do think your correct in that a healthier discourse on male-female relationships would be better on the whole. And I do wonder whether, the power aspect of sexual assault and rape is heightened where a discussion of sex can be taboo. The more taboo it is, the more power is given to sexual assault and rape. But I don’t want to sound like PG, especially where I don’t have anything tangible (statistics or human experience) to base that on. An equally possible scenario, is that certain individuals have felt entitled to committing these acts as there is no consequence to the act.
This may seem contradictory but I don’t think dehumanizing acts such as prostitution do anything to change that power dynamic. A rational society shouldn’t expect prostitution or hard core porn to be an an alternative to educating and punishing its populace on the evil of attacking what is, ostensibly, a physically weaker person or treating that person as an object. While prostitution and hard-core porn may make sex less taboo, it still places the female figure as an object to be controlled and less than human or equal. It doesn’t create the type of discourse on male female relationships that I believe you would like to see.
Yes and almost all of them were educated so called progressive folks. I understand someone from the village saying such things.
The case you speak about the women getting beaten up and stripped in Andhra Pradesh. I saw that video a while ago too and it was disturbing because it was a lot of women and old women who were doing it.
Respect begins at home. I so strongly believe this. But unfortunate in so many Indian households if the women who are supposed to teach their young sons don’t respect their own daughters or value them the way they value their sons, how would the sons learn respect? Sisterhood is so strongly lacking within families. Women will rise against women a lot faster. Look at what they show on soap operas in India. And you’d think it’s bogus entertainment but I swear to god I experienced it myself and I could have sold tickets to that show.
153 · jackal I still don’t see friends who are girls riding the bus/train in the US/Europe on a daily basis worry/think about the casual groping/rubbing that’s pervasive especially in Delhi. It happens elsewhere, sure, but it’s a question of order of magnitude. If you’re arguing this happens on the same wide scale and daily basis as in the US or France, that’s quite simply ludicrous. Talk to my cousins in India and talk to others that live in nyc; it just doesn’t compare.
The very fact that India (and Pakistan and Bangladesh) have this peculiar euphemism called ‘eve-teasing’ (that’s incredibly prevalent and still quite commonly used) for molesting/groping should raise some alarm bells. I was in Bombay when this came up and my cousins, even some aunts!, nodded gravely and mentioned some stories/incidents that they just have to brush off as “oh that was just eve-teasing. it’s terrible but what can you do?”. I repeat: this doesn’t happen in such a regular way here. And the police generally take it pretty seriously here (ie: I’ve seen incidents reported and the perpetrator arrested and sentenced).
This isn’t about bashing India, no need to get illogically defensive. Look, I love the place, but we need to be honest about some problems that are more common there (as they might be in Egypt, or to a lesser degree, Korea/Japan or Italy). It’s a fact, let’s face it; and the anecdotes are shockingly universal. Besides, by saying ‘hey it happens everywhere’ we ignore societally-specific circumstances and potential solutions (both short- and long-term) to this pervasive problem.
Illogically defensive? This is simply a counter-point to yours, that similar things happen in developed countries for example the Puerto Rican parade crowd incident in NYC.
For example, a lot of my female friends have repeatedly told me the same story about traveling thru Italy. Men, groups of men would follow them down streets and harass them.
It does happen in NYC on a regular basis it’s just that people have learned to deal with it. Why do you think when people enter into a subway car, we all automatically re-adjust ourselves in terms of position with other people? This is based upon sex, race, size of people, clothes, perceived level of crazyness, etc..
This is not to minimize what occurred in India nor to suggest there are not particulars which would be better address the problem there. And it is being addressed in India in particulars, for example check out this ad on Eve-teasing.
My point remains it does happen in the developed world. Look at the number of rapes per country.
I can’t get inside the heads of the attackers.
Isn’t that at some collective level, what must be done though? I’m not saying you should be the only one to do it.
I don’t have stats to back that up, other than the fact that sexual assault occurs in the U.S. and it allegedly has a “healthier” sexual attitude than in India.
Well I was going with the presupposition that these types of incidents are sort of an epidemic to India and Indian society (not that I agree with that 100%, rather just starting from that presupposition) then the only way to root it out is to determine what characteristics are India-specific, right?
A rational society shouldn’t expect prostitution or hard core porn to be an an alternative to educating and punishing its populace on the evil of attacking what is, ostensibly, a physically weaker person or treating that person as an object.
no, I never said it should be.. I just said the dehumanization cannot be equated.
have this peculiar euphemism called ‘eve-teasing’
I thought eve teasing was specific to verbal things, catcalling, etc… btw whats it called when you say to a guy he doesn’t make enough $$, adam teasing?
stats such as these are also the artifact–ceteris paribus– of how many people report these crimes (and whether or not the police record it; notice that china does not figure in the list); it is therefore not surprising that the u.s. is at the top (all other factors being equal). i would multiply the india figure by at least 3 to get a more realistic view (and then compare it to the u.s.).
There are a variety of problems in using those aggregate statistics to make comparisons between the countries (which, I agree with others, is counterproductive and should not be the main point of the thread). But, to threadjack a bit more, in addition to issues like reporting rate and the sometimes onerous process of making such reports within the Indian police/legal system there is this: http://www.indiatogether.org/2004/oct/wom-sakshi.htm. As far as I understand, the definition of rape in India is narrower than in many (most?) other countries. Thus a lot of vile sexual assaults would fall in ‘outraging a woman’s modesty’ clause which, as was noted earlier, is not generally prosecuted well and has disproportionately minimal consequences.
I don’t think you’ve quite seen/experienced what often happens in public transit in much of India if you’re trying to compare it with people adjusting their places in the NYC subway. Rape, and less severe (but repulsive) acts of molestation such as these happen everywhere; that much is obvious to anyone here. However, as is evidenced by much of the discussion here, we recognize that there are some scenarios, issues and problems at hand peculiar to some/many parts of India (for example, the worship of the chaste woman ideal contrasted with incidents such as these). It’s why we’re discussing this here, and why it affects many of us (I’m male, but it does my relatives living in Indian cities).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eve_teasing – eve teasing generally refers to molestation as well. it’s an awfully convenient way for some segments/people to say ‘oh it’s just eve-teasing’ without recognizing that it is very often, assault.
These are conversational red herrings, yes we are sorry this incident took place but things like this also occur in the west. My question: so what? how is that relevant to the topic we are discussing? It doesn’t absolve the perpetrators of the above incident. It is just a clever to way to obfuscate the issue at hand.