Back in May, I wrote a post about the Muttontown/Long Island couple who were accused of treating their Indonesian maids like “modern-day slaves”. It is time for an update (thanks, various tipsters):
A jury on Monday convicted a millionaire couple of enslaving two Indonesian women they brought to their mansion to work as housekeepers.
Mahender Murlidhar Sabhnani, 51, and his wife, Varsha Mahender Sabhnani, 45, were each convicted of all charges in a 12-count federal indictment that included forced labor, conspiracy, involuntary servitude, and harboring aliens. [MSNBC]
In addition to grueling 18-hour days, Samirah and Enung were “fortunate enough” to receive discipline and opportunities like those detailed below:
Allegations of abuse included beatings with brooms and umbrellas, slashings with knives, being made to repeatedly climb stairs and take freezing-cold showers as punishment for misdeeds that included sleeping late or stealing food from trash bins because they were poorly fed.
Samirah, the woman who fled the house in May, said she was forced to eat dozens of chili peppers and then was forced to eat her own vomit when she failed to digest the peppers, prosecutors said… [MSNBC]
This next bit is clearly a misinterpretation of actual events; I’m sure that Mrs. Sabhnani was merely trying to assist with hair removal. That’s quite thoughtful of her!
Enung testified that Samirah’s nude body once was covered in plastic wrapping tape on orders from Varsha Sabhnani, who then instructed Enung to rip it off. “When I pulled it off, she was screaming,” the housekeeper said through an interpreter before breaking down in tears on the witness stand. [MSNBC]
These disposable women should have been grateful that they were allowed to come to America, so that they could live in a mansion– and be stashed in a 3’x3′ space whenever visitors came, lest they embarrass their generous employers with their bruises and scars. If they hadn’t been so gluttonous as to sift through the trash for scraps, then they wouldn’t have been punished. Makes perfect sense…if you’re EVIL. But wait! There’s MORE!
The Sabhnanis’ defense attorneys contended the two women concocted the story of abuse as a way of escaping the house for more lucrative opportunities. [CNN]
You know, when I’m on the prowl for more lucrative opportunities, I always make sure that I rush in to a Dunkin’ Donuts with naught but a towel for a shirt and then fake abuse while pleading for help. Works every time.
They argued the housekeepers practiced witchcraft and may have abused themselves as part of an Indonesian self-mutilation ritual. They also said the couple went on frequent vacations that would have given the two women ample opportunity to flee. [MSNBC]
Obviously they didn’t practice witch stuff enough! I mean, if you don’t have the power to ingest 25 chili peppers like it ain’t no thang, well, you’re an embarrassment to your kind. Actually, it’s a good thing these witches were terrible at their craft; imagine what manner of wicked mischief they might have inflicted on their poor, persecuted, millionaire employers, had they had the time or energy provided by scraps of food from the garbage, to work on such things.
I didn’t think I could loathe these people more, but after reading that “strategy” put forth by their lawyers, I think I might. Then again, perhaps it’s heartless of us to blame this couple, when their greedy witch-employees just wanted to have some traditional, self-mutilatin’ fun? The Sabhnanis are the real victims here. I mean, look at this:
Varsha Sabhnani, 45, and one of her daughters collapsed in disbelief as the damning verdict was read – and were taken to a hospital for treatment. [NYDailyNews]
Maybe histrionics are like cooties? Contagious?
Defense attorney Jeffrey Hoffman said he would appeal. “Apparently, the jury was taken by the histrionics …” of the Indonesian women, he said. [CNN]
Here’s the best quote ever:
“We never did anything to anybody,” the Sabhnanis’ daughter Tina screamed. “How could this happen to us in America?” [NYDailyNews]
Yes, Tina. How COULD this happen, not just in America, but in your own home?
their view ends up “compartmentalizing” the Latino girl into particular beliefs by virtue of her ethnicity, thereby denying Latinos the diversity of opinion they have in reality and by virtue of being human
uhh. not really.
I’m not talking about opinion. I’m talking about shared experience, as you well know because I spent nearly half a thread explaining it to you.
But I’ll actually agree with you, because the “enlightened northern” view can also restrictive, what needs to occur in both regions (north and south, because, as you rightly put, they’re both human) is those in power (essentially those in charge of the “accepting”) must not have a blind faced “I don’t see color” perspective – rather an acknowledgement of that color difference, and acknowledgement that they are socially indicative of a shared experience, that those in power have no access to.
by the way. the southern perception also disallows for “diversity in opinion” for if you go against the “america the great rah rah rah” you’re landmarked one of those “uppity” one’s.
It’s why people in Louisiana might’ve elected Jindal, but in their minds, he’s “different, not like the rest“
Time to close the thread, you think? I mean, once we bring up Menchu and Jindal, is there really anything else to say?
Two of the four kids, Tina and Rahul still have FB pages. Rahul’s doesn’t have a pic. I think the manse was seized yesterday.
I think its fitting for Tina and Rahul to go to Indonesia and clean the military latrines for 6 months.
b/f we close the thread, i’m interested in the civil suit angle, if there are any lawyers out there who can clarify. how much do the victims stand to gain? how much would the lawyers take normally? can the victims get the house, retirement funds, and business (if the biz is incorporated). what if the property was transferred to the kids?
i know, lot of issues here and there’s no clean answer, but if there is a lawyer out there who can shed some light, i’d be curious to know what the likely outcome is.
The thread won’t close if we stay on-topic. 😉
I’m curious about what Manju asked about, too. What’s going to happen to the kids?
A NY lawyer may know precisely, but likely the kids will get a guardian. If they don’t have family, they become wards of the state and go to a foster home. But they’re Indian so they likely have lots of extended family who can step in and care for them till they hit 18.
Aren’t they already over 18? or at least some of them are?
I wonder what it was like for the kids when they were studying US history, and the topic came to slavery:
Teacher – “In 1863 Lincoln signed the emancipation proclamation that outlawed human beings being used to forced labor”
Kid – “Really? they did that?”
Why does this make me so sad, in so many ways.
No reason for sympathy for the kids – they’re all over 18 except maybe the son, who just graduated high school.
b/f we close the thread, i’m interested in the civil suit angle, if there are any lawyers out there who can clarify. how much do the victims stand to gain? how much would the lawyers take normally? can the victims get the house, retirement funds, and business (if the biz is incorporated). what if the property was transferred to the kids?
i know, lot of issues here and there’s no clean answer, but if there is a lawyer out there who can shed some light, i’d be curious to know what the likely outcome is.
I am not a tort lawyer but will try to answer.
how much do the victims stand to gain?
Whatever the jury can be convinced on. I am thinking $4-$6 million is what I would have awarded if I was on the jury. Remember the jury will be from a rich area of people who have maids. So I would guess $ 5 million. A blue collar jury might go over $10 million.
how much would the lawyers take normally?
Pre-trial settlement close to 20%. Post trial award probably 33%. The lawyers will have to advance all the expenses for running the trial which will be significant.
can the victims get the house, retirement funds, and business (if the biz is incorporated). what if the property was transferred to the kids?
I dont know the specific laws of New York but most states have some sort of Fraudulent Conveyance Acts which forbid transfers made with actual intent to defraud creditors. So transfers made to kids should be covered under this and will be revert back to the defendants. I believe NY has a homestead exemption of $10,000.
Business (Shares/Corporation): Lets say Mommy and Daddy both hold 30% shares each. The maids will at least assume the ‘interest’ in 60% of the shares. I dont know the laws in NY but generally shares can be attached in a public and non-closely held private company (forced sale of shares/ownership transferred) unless its a closely held company private company where they will have to jump through hoops before attaching the shares.
Business organized as LLC or a Partnership: It will be a little harder but the maids will again at least get the ‘interest’ in the defendants ownership of the Company. If the defendants have a majority interest, the minority interest will be driven out by the maids. It wont be as nice for the maids as it will be in a corporation but they will get the full benefits from the ownership interest of the defendants.
Retirement Funds: If they are in Bankruptcy, most pensions, profit-sharing and 401(k) plans, SEP and Simple IRAs will be protected. If they are not in Bankruptcy, NY State laws will govern and I would speculate that IRAs/ROTH IRAs are probably exempt.
Manju & ANNA: That will be $800 for telling you that ‘it depends’ and ‘check the NY laws’ 🙂
thanks acfd. this should be fun to watch as things progress….kinda like the anand jon trial. nothing like a little schadenfreude to put a hop in ones skip.
The whole episose seems human tragedy. Righteous indignation from commenters is understandable. Is there also an undercurrent of lynch mob psychology going on here? The culprits were convicted and justice is served. Like to be enlightened.
Manju,
I’m a NY lawyer and I can give you a very broad landscape view of the civil suit. I normally don’t try and answer questions like these because it’s giving an opinion without all of the relevant facts. Sort of like a blind man in a dark room looking for a light switch. But, some of the headlines you posted on Amardeep’s post had me laughing so I thought I’d repay the favor. The Jeter one was a fave. Plus I have a little time before a xmas party. So here we go: first, a couple of caveats, 1)I haven’t really been following the matter too much other than what I read here. 2) As you indicated there are a whole host of issues that none of us, either than the parties themselves, can speak to like: the type of assets, insurance proceeds that may or may not cover any claims, what assets the government seizes. 3) In case there are other lawyers out there, this is a very rough outline of what one could expect. So please, spare the socratic method for someone else.
The maids (for lack of a better term) could bring a civil claim based on several grounds including, but not limited, to: assault, battery, intentional infliction of emotional distress, maybe false imprisonment not to mention claims based on violations of possible federal statutes dealing with working conditions. A civil complaint brought in state court can allege any dollar amount. That’s why you’ll see celebrities sued in NY for millions but really the amount in controversy or the actual amount sought or recovered is often much less. The maids would not only have to prove the elements of their respective claims but would have to establish what their injuries are worth. So… a jury (assuming it ever gets to a jury) would have to weigh medical evidence like doctors and medical reports to see what effect the physical injury has on the maid(s).
The judge may require as part of sentencing that the Sabhnanis pay a certain amount in restitution to their victims. That’ll depend on what the sentencing guidelines call for and the judge’s discretion. If their house is seized by the gov’t, that maybe one asset the maids may not be able to pursue to satisfy their claims. Only time will tell how the gov’t chooses to deal with the house. The maids would be able to pursue any of the Sabhnanis personal assets to satisfy any damages they may have suffered. Once again, they would first have to prove the elements of their civil suit first. Possible assets in play would be cash, jewelry, cars, the mansion…anything that would satisfy the damages. Pension Plans are exempt from that. I doubt there is any insurance policy that the Sabhnannis would have that may cover this scenario, there’s no such thing as torture insurance. Regardless most insurance policies don’t cover for intentional acts. The maids probably would not be able to recover using any of the business assets as the corp. wasn’t involved in their abuse. That answer changes if the Sabhnannis didn’t follow the formalities of a corp., so in essence they would be considered the same entity.
An interesting aspect of a civil suit brought in the State of NY is that the maids’ immigration status is something a jury can look at in deciding the amount of any damages awarded. A jury would be asked to consider the length of time an illegal alien resided and intended to stay, any steps that the alien had taken to get permanent status and factors affecting their illegal alien status.
In a nutshell, all of the Sabhnannis personal assets are at play and given the press this case has had, I would not expect them to have a neutral jury pool.
Hope this helps, now I’m off to get my twist on with Mr. John Walker, punjabi style. Tis the season.
BTW, I heart Sepia Mutiny.
3) In case there are other lawyers out there, this is a very rough outline of what one could expect. So please, spare the socratic method for someone else.
Dont be a kill joy 🙂 I agree with your sentiment with one small comment:
The maids probably would not be able to recover using any of the business assets as the corp. wasn’t involved in their abuse
Judgment Creditors should be able to attack the interest of the defendants in business.
This kind of behavior by old-school Indians does not surprise me and might be even ingrained into their progeny sometimes. It reminds me when I was growing up in India when my parents used to physically, verbal and emotionally (but luckily not sexually) abuse me ….. quite often for weak reasons. Let me cite a few: – First good beating I got (which I do not remember, but they told me) was when I was 2 yrs 9 mos old when I bro was born and I was shouting ‘Chottu alla” (Little kid has arrived) …so my Dad gave me a good whacking. – Over the years, the use to belts, flip-flop slippers, sticks were common on me. Average beatings in a month: 2. Verbal abuses : 10 to 50 to … in a month. Got a hairline fracture once on the hand and could not write properly for 8th standard tests after a month too. – In the 5th grade, was made to strip naked and throw out in the extreme cold and wind (was snowing outside in Ladhakh side). My fault: turned on the switch in a room and the lights went out. Was it my fault or that of the electrician who did not properly calibrate the load of circuits ? – I once broke a Rupee 18 object while skipping when the rope came out and hit it. I was given such a whacking !! Black and blue! A very small meal a day for 5 days. Made to sleep in the bathroom (literally). Dad said he would kill me (did not know in 6th grade that he could not legally …anyway if he did – who in the house would rat on him in India. It would be like “I got what I deserved!”). All this from a man who used to say ‘Money is not everything!” – Last beating I got was when was 21 and I managed to get a scholarship and leave India for grad school here. Story: rule in the house was that if anyone from work called for me Dad on the phone to say that he is not at home (lest they call him back to work again).So we all followed that rule diligently. One day when I said he was not there, he came out and said why I said he was not there when he was there. I said that he said to say so. He said he needed to take the call. I said to call the person back after 5 minutes and say you just arrived home. He blurted some bad words to my mom and me …. and they both joined in beating me me with belt and slippers. My mom was so exhausted beating me that SHE was panting and trying to catch her breath on the bed. hah hah! Please note that I had a brown belt in Karate, but could not hit them (due to obvious resasons – ie. staying under their roof) though I could have taken them both out in less than 10 seconds. – Too many beatings to itemize – Not to forget that he was a wife abuser/beater too. – Did I mention that after reading his “holy” scriptures and praying to God ….my Dad would put his palms on the side of his eyes (so as not see my face) and come in the room to kiss and bid goodbye to my brother and then leave for office (he loved him). And if during the day he had problems at office (which were often) he would shout in the night at me and say that he might have seen my face hence his day went bad. (I guess it must have gone bad not due to me, but due to his attitude)….very funny ! – Psychological games were a lot… putting on lights in the middle of night by by mom suspecting me of “playing with myself” …..etc etc … but that’s another story!
You see quite often my mom also said that if they are nice to servants in India …they climb on the head, take things for granted, truancy,etc etc …
What did I learn from all this ? Well … provided me a role model of what NOT to be like. All this was such a long time ago ……. 🙂
Jai
Jai: That is some really awful stuff.
i read in one of the indian papers that the jury voted to give the home to the state as it was the location where said crimes occurred.
Al – Awful ? Ask my Dad. Forget being sorry about it. He says it was necessary …. in fact – he says he should have done more …so I would then be “the way HE wants me to be” ! 🙂 People talk about stuff like “karma”, what goes around …..comes around,etc,etc …. funny! If I sum up all the stuff – it would be spend half a life-time in prison, but he got away scott-free! Asi es la vida …..
Jai
Jai, so sorry to hear about all that…if I may ask, do you still maintain ties to your parents? And have you ever told them what you feel about the kind of childhood you had? I still don’t understand what your first beating was all about.
My parents both would give me the occasional beating when I was a kid (my dad sometimes using way more force than was necessary) but that stopped by my early teens. In fact on my dad’s side, disciplining kids with force was common amongst all the extended family. Looking back, I don’t think they did anything too wrong, and I don’t hold any grudges about that stuff, but I remember at times hating their guts during those moments. In any case, they never beat me for stupid stuff or for no reason, but for things they considered huge no-no’s…like gambling, lying, cheating on tests, gross disrespect, etc. I think to some extent it was a good strategy (I wasn’t always an easy kid to raise).
Jai, this is not old-school Indian behavior. This is absuive behavior even by Indian standards.
I feel really bad for you – that is pretty fucked up.
How do these civil lawsuits work ? Looks like their verdicts are not enforced very strictly… wasn’t O J simpson found guilty in the civil lawsuit filed by the Goldman family ? He was supposed to pay something in the millions of $ but so far I don’t think he’s paid anything significant and his fortune is safe (unless that Vegas incident finally gets him). He moved to Miami as under FL law, his property cannot be seized to pay a debt.
Amitabh, I do not feel sorry for myself though, but for others who might be getting similar worse treatment and cannot do anything about it all over the world. I did well for myself doing an MS and MBA with scholarship since I knew that higher education would help my release from “captivity” (used to cross-mark my days on a calender back then. 🙂 ). I do understand that some beatings are necessary and promote good habits and can be deemed necessary in India (they should allow that here in the US too since some kids are too flippant (understatement/word)) and that we cannot equate the laws here to that in India of not hitting kids in India. Gambling, cheating in tests, disrespect ???? That was out of question! The beatings quite often were for any small reason (please note that even then I knew what would be a transgression – minor, major or otherwise). I have mentioned quite often about the things of childhood to them …. but they are adamant about their position. Lest to say I do not now keep in touch with them ….not due to what happened in India, but due to some other bigger stuff which happened here in the US (perhaps will write about it later! ). Oh! the first beating at 2.9 yrs old was because my younger brother was born and he was brought home from the hospital …so I began shouting loudly “Chottu alla chottu alla” ….which means :”Little kid has come …little kid has come”. My Dad did not like me shouting around …so he gave me a beating. Beats me how can a a man in his 30’s beat a 2 yr 9 month kid. Must say something about him ……
Jai
I remember when i was 3 years old and my sister was born. I saw some patient eating blue sherbet and I threw a tantrum demanding blue sherbet, this was literally minutes after my sister was born – and my dad got it for me!
Looking back I feel like an ass.
BTW my dad is also old-school in terms of social attitudes, morality, how women should behave, views of basically everyone not from our caste, etc.
Not all Indian parents beat their kids for the smallest.
PS: I did get beaten but very rarely. But I did get lots of psychological threats like – “If you don’t get grades this high forget about us and don’t bother coming home from school.” Imagine a ten year old studying his ass of because he’s afraid of becoming homeless.
Yeah…but it was all kid stuff…I’m talking primary/middle school…and the gambling (brief as it was) was very mild, nothing high stakes or anything…just little games between kids…and from high school on I never cheated on any quiz or test (because by then I had internalised that it was wrong).
Amitabh, good to see you posting regularly again! I’m surprized (shocked?) to hear how your parents disciplined you…Now I really understand why Russell Peters’ srikes a cord in desi audiences with this set (nearly 3 million views). Of course it happened to me, but I’m a DBD!
Most DBD parents in the US that I have known – otoh, do not as much as raise their voices with their kids, leave alone beat them. It’s probably a severely biased sample…
I never equated racial minorities in general. Notice that I said “paranoid, chronically violent minorities.” Those would be the racial minorities who, when you adjust for the race, are as unhinged and racist as the KKK.
You cannot quantify experience in an objective, useful way. The variables are open-ended.
Those would be the racial minorities who, when you adjust for the race, are as unhinged and racist as the KKK.
What do you mean “adjust for race”? by saying “chronically violent racial minorities” it presupposes that an entire race can be predisposed to chronic violence.. Which of course itself is a racist implication. Yet in the same breath you talk about how great the relationship is between the races by your hispanic girlfriends complete acceptance into the fold. It’s the Southern Manifesto, all over again.
You cannot quantify experience in an objective, useful way. The variables are open-ended.
Then your sample point is equally useless.
Jai, while Varsha Sabhnani’s conduct was off the scale and cannot be compared to that of any reasonable person, the conduct you have described of your parents is definitely in the tail of the distribution, and cannot be considered normal behavior, however old-school it might be called. I agree with JGandhi that it would be considered abusive even by Indian standards. I hope that you have found peace with yourself after what you went through.
I should mention that I have not experienced any abuse from my parents, and the only two cases of child abuse I have seen/encountered were to others. But I mention them here, because they are related to a deeper question:
Age 6. Neighbor’s kids’ cousin came to visit them, with his mother, a terrible dragon of a woman. All that happened was that a bunch of us were playing, and the cousin (all the kids were the same 6-8 age group) was very scared of joining in. Finally after enough of sitting on the sidelines, he joined in, and ran around with everyone else, and laughed his head off for 10 minutes. Then we heard his mother call out for him. She came out of the neighbors’ house, and saw him playing. She dragged him back into the house by one ear (the rest of us had stopped and were watching terrified), threw him down to the floor and, quite literally, kicked and stamped him around for more than a minute, all the while yelling at him for disobeying her and going out to play. This was right in front of the neighbors (her brother and his wife), neither of whom indicated that this might be a tad excessive. After that incident, every time that kid came to visit over the next year or so, by unspoken agreement, all of us would cut him a lot of slack on how long he could play.
Age 10. Girl at school, usually reticent and irritable, is more silent than usual, not that anybody noticed. The teacher sends her away on an errand (“Fetch some chalk from the staff room”), then tells the rest of us to be friendly with her and make her feel like she belongs. Apparently, she had been having trouble with her math homework for a couple of weeks, and her mother had been trying to teach her how to add fractions (or some such dumb thing). With not much success. Two days before the teacher was telling us all this, the girl’s mother apparently blew a fuse, and set the family dog on her, beating the dog when it refused to bite. The teacher, who lived two doors away, heard part of it and got the rest of the details from the girl herself, after some talking. I do know that the teacher made things happen from the academic end, so that the girl would not need her mother to sit with her for homework. In the meantime, we were given the task of ensuring that she did not feel alienated by her classmates as well. But I don’t think anyone ever called out the mother for either child abuse or animal abuse.
From what I’ve been able to make of it, hardly any schools in India have someone who is trained as a counselor, or someone who knows child psychology of the professional sort. It is left to teachers, none of whom is really trained to be a counselor, not all of whom are moved enough by the abuse they see to intervene on the child’s behalf, and whose actions may or may not be effective. Also, when you do discover some abuse going on, whom are you going to tell? Indian cops? If there were laws against child abuse, how are you going to enforce it? The deeper question for India is not “Where does discipline stop and child abuse begin?”, but “OK, this IS child abuse. Now what are you going to do about it?”.
The stories that I’m reading here make me want to go and hug my parents for the occasional beating that I received when I was bad; which I probably deserved. They seem downright reasonable compared to some of these stories.
In response to ACFD in 215,
Judgment Creditors should be able to attack the interest of the defendants in business.
That’s a definite maybe. I didn’t see your earlier post where you discussed the LLC and Business Organizations otherwise I might have eschewed posting a response to Manju. The shares value maybe of little worth especially in a closed corporation setting so going after them may not be worth it. NY law is a little tricky when it comes to attacking the interests of the defendants in the business. As you imply, a lot of that will depend on the type of organizational structure the business was originally set up in.
The fee structure for a tort attorney in NY is usually a 1/3 contingency fee regardless of the stage in which recovery is made. Therefore, regardless of whether it’s pre-verdict or early on in the matter, the lawyer get his 1/3 of settlement or verdict. Despite the horrific conditions these people endured, I would be very surprised at a verdict in the 4-5 million dollar range. I practice commercial litigation in NY and I’ve been around the block a bit to see some good commercial and tort cases (while this is certainly an unprecedented case) the jury verdict reporters in NY are filled with people with awful, debilitating injuries who don’t come close to this dollar amount. Then again, what dollar amount do you apply to having portions of your freedom and life taken away. It’s unquantifiable. For that reason, my guess is a judge limits what the Sabhnanni’s can seek to their actual physical and mental injuries. (If your wondering on how that’s proven – you get a bunch of doctors to act as experts and explain the effect).
As for the fraudulent conveyance statute, you are on point. Fraudulent conveyance statutes in NY do have a look back period so if the Sabhnanni’s tried to convey assets to their children in the last few months, the maids’ attorneys would be able to look at those assets for recovery. But recovering those assets is a huge pain in the tookus.
It will be interesting to see if there is a civil suit and if the Sabhnannis try to settle. I am sure their willingness to settle will depend on the amount of money they have to pay or whether they admit they’ve done something wrong. There seems to be a lot of denial on their part.
And here’s something that some of you might consider flame worthy. I hope not. It’s meant more to ask a question of the fairness of this whole Sabhnanni trial. Regardless of whether you think the Sabhnannis are guilty or innocent of their crime, I think we can all agree they deserved a fair trial.
I am not sure if they got a fair shake at one. First, their defense was pitiful. So pitiful that it borders on stupid. So stupid that it should never have been used. Even if their defense was true, its too unbelievable to have traction with a jury. They would have been better off taking a plea. That’s their lawyers fault and their fault for listening to his advice. Second, this wasn’t a jury of their peers. This was for the most part an all white jury in Long Island. (someone please correct me on this if I am wrong). How many of you would want to place your future on that grouping? I maybe cynical in my old age but my life experience in NY tells me that this isn’t the most open-minded group one may get. The first NY post article that ever came out about Ms. Sabhnanni compared her to Cruella de Ville from 101 dalmations. Ok, so a brown albeit ugly face get compared to a nasty looking person. You don’t think that doesn’t have an effect on certain soft minded people who may have a prejudice or pre-disposition against brown folk. Too many people get caught up in the look of a person than rather judging what they may have done.
In the end, the Sabhnannis probably got what they deserved. And they probably deserve more. But I think people should be cautious on thinking the legal system worked. More like justice was served in spite of itself. I just wonder if the color of their skin, their different appearance, their different last name had anything to do with a 2 day deliberation at a guilty verdict after a 6 week trial. I hope that it didn’t. I hope they were found guilty because the evidence showed they were scum. But how many of you can actually say unequivocally that their appearance didn’t matter and isn’t that the problem.
To be clear, I’m not saying that they got railroaded on a conviction based on the color of their skin or their appearance. But I don’t doubt that it had a much bigger effect on their conviction than I’m comfortable with or what many of you might like to believe.
Just to close it out, I see there’s a discussion about the North and South of the US and how one group maybe more tolerant. Let’s be honest, there’s close minded people everywhere. Just because one person’s reaction from a group may not have been positive, it’s not indicative of a whole region. The North, South, East, West are all equally f’d in my mind.
BTW, never mix Mr. Walker with Mr. Regal and some egg-nog. Not good.
Chachaji, thanks…I don’t want to overstate the discipline or make it seem like a big part of my life or childhood or anything…overall the atmosphere at home was loving and warm…but starting from the age of around 10 and continuing to around 13 or so, I did get smacked once in a while (or sometimes smacked a few times in a row, if it was my dad) but only when I did something my parents considered outrageous. Unlike some of the examples above, I was never smacked because they were in a bad mood, or because of some weird personality trait like the mom that pingpong (#229) described. My parents were truly worried that if things like gambling or lying weren’t nipped in the bud, they would develop into more serious problems. And I have to say, it worked…although it’s possible I might have grown out of those things on my own as I matured anyway…who knows.
jangali: thanks for the extended reply. also, glad u enjoyed the headlines on amardeep’s thread…thought i was will smith in manhattan for a while.
My father has anger management problems; in middle/high school, I would get threatened with violence in the form of him yelling, taking off his belt, and if I wasn’t crying and cowed into submission by this point he’d hit me with it once or twice. It wasn’t about inflicting pain so much as it was about intimidating or punishing me. To be fair, while I think that level of aggressiveness was unnecessary, his aggression wasn’t completely unfounded as it these incidents usually occurred when I f*cked up, which was quite often. Hell it happened again just a few months ago actually.
My mother never hit me, except for a dramatic slap across the face when I was in middle school and very rudely shooting my mouth off, and once when I was younger and she threw something at my brother in a fit of anger but it hit me instead. Amma has instead unknowingly perfected the art of psychological manipulation and dependence, which is so much worse.
Damn…that’s fucked up! Neither me or my sister never received anything more than a spank on the derriere out of frustration – and an hour later my parents would cuddle us again out of embarrassement of their behaviour. Is their any sort of child abuse regulation in India?
In theory, Article 39(e) and 39(f) of the Constitution prohibit abuse. In practice, that is aimed more at abandonment, exploitation, child marriage and the like. There are a bunch of laws that prohibit specific activities for children, like begging, child labor etc, but none cover whether a child should be beaten by his/her parents, or what punishment is legally allowed and what is not. If you want statistics, see this and this. Some NGOs that work primarily for spuosal abuse victims may also respond, say, in situations where the wife and the child are both being beaten by the husband, but if only the child is being beaten, they may or may not step in.
But really, this being India that we’re talking about, the existence of a law does not make as much difference as whether it is enforced. Opinions may differ as to the practicality of the whole thing – I personally think that child abuse legislation is enforceable, but it will tend not be enforced unless something major happens, like a well-publicized abuse scandal.
Jai,
I’m sorry for your experience. Thank you for sharing. I’ll think four times before raising my voice with my kids.
I’m thinking maybe it was the other way around…the lawyers advised them to take a plea but the defendants refused, so the defense came up with something they hoped would stick to the wall. Defendants can be stupid or not think clearly…when I worked for the Public Defender, one client had me explain to the judge that the reason he tested positive for cocaine was because of “second hand smoke from crack pipes.” Another client wrecked a car in a high speed chase trying to steal a flatscreen TV, and insisted that he couldn’t be charged for larceny because “the store got the TV back.”
I’m guessing what happened was that the prosecutors weren’t willing to offer the Sabhanis a plea that didn’t involve serious prison time, and the defendants were so adamant about not going to prison that they were determined to go to trial over their attorney’s advice.
Speedy
Sabhanis a plea that didn’t involve serious prison time, and the defendants were so adamant about not going to prison that they were determined to go to trial over their attorney’s advice.
I dont understand, on what basis would prosecution even offer a plea?
The only scenarios in which plea’s make logical sense is if the accused is giving information about an even bigger fish. Do the Sahbanis have information regarding Indonesian slaves in Levittown.. or maybe even Roslyn? Perhaps those other slave holders live next to a Krispy Kreme shop, and don’t have a sliver of a chance.
Either way.. all this lawyer bullsh*t doesn’t make sense anyway. In a case like this, they should be forced to experience what they inflicted.
Just spoke to one of the Indian neighbors. They seem to be in total denial. She says the reason people never saw the ladies outside of the house is because the children are grown – they didn’t need to come out to play with young children (???) When I asked why people like the Sabhnanis, with that kind of money, wouldn’t just pay someone here to do their housework, she said “because that’s the Indian mentality” – you get people from other third world countries so you can work them hard and not have to pay them. But of course, they would never beat anyone because Indians are kind and nice (does she even see the contradiction in what she’s saying?) Yikes.
I wonder if we will be getting any stories from friends of the kids. You know, if they treated the servants well, why wouldn’t they be able to get a lot of their regular visitors to the witness stand. It is obvious they forced these poor women to lead a terrible life.
Just curious what language this is…is it Bengali? It looks like ‘alla’ is cognate to the Hindi/Punjabi word ‘aaya’ (came).
these stories of are pretty freaky. sorry to hear them. ps the ‘chotu alla’ is marathi.
“Chottu alla chottu alla”
Marathi, for sure, perhaps others too – maybe Gujarati, not sure.
nah – we don’t chottu.
We’d say “chokro ayvo, chokro ayvo”
I don’t think we should be condemning the Sabhnani children, unless we know that they too assaulted and or tortured the maids?
ps – i made the same point yesterday on this forum, but for some reason it was deleted. if i am again in contravention of your commenting policy, i apologize.
We’ve already discussed this– how one of the daughters CHAINED the fridge shut so the maids could not eat, how the other daughter ratted out the maids for taking a sip of milk and perhaps most telling, how they pleaded the fifth to avoid incriminating themselves.
Your other comments were deleted because each contained something which did break our guidelines. The part you posted today did not; if you had posted this comment yesterday and left out the trolling, it would have stuck.
Can we try to not include a few beatings as a kid with the bigger picture of monstrous abuse as mentioned in this story? I acknowledge there are a couple of personal stories by our readers that seem totally out of line even by tough parenting standards. But the other comments indicate a few slaps or whuppings. Hell, I had my share of those. And I feel those are nothing compared to what is being mentioned in this story.
I meant fellow readers lest someone thinks I am trying to represent the website.
BTW, this lady makes Leona Helmsley seem like Mother Teresa by comparison.
In response to Speedy at 237:
You might be correct and it may have been the Sabhnannis that launched the ludicrous defense. I may have been too harsh on their defense counsel and should have avoided the monday morning quarterbacking. I’ve just seen too many brown folk follow bad legal advice and then wonder how they ended up in their predicament. Which automatically makes me question whether brown folk truly understand the advice being given them or whether they simply accept the advice because they think a gora lawyer must know what he’s saying. I would think that defense counsel would find a way to talk their client out of such a defense. After all it’s his credibility he’s putting out there as well. But the Sabhnanni’s may just have been cuckoo (that’s a legal term) enough to think it would work or as you suggested, they may have been getting significant prison time in any plea and figured to roll the dice.
In response to HMF at 238:
Sometimes a plea is offered so that the state (or feds) can forego the expense of a trial. Additionally, a jury is an unknown quantity. One can never guarantee what may happen during trial and what the jury dynamic may be. So a prosecutor will offer a plea agreement simply to avoid the unknowns and the cost. One doesn’t need to be Pablo Escobar to get a plea. Regardless of whether they were offered a plea, if they plead guilty, I believe they would have received a reduction under the sentencing guidelines and may have avoided having a jury say that they lose their home. So their own arrogance and unwillingness to accept responsibility for what happened may have added to their punishment.
I am curious – why/how did they decide to indict only the parents and not the kids, if they were participants in the abuse too? Also, I haven’t seen any specific anecdotes of violence by Mahender “I am the Walrus” Sabhnani, is it that he is the owner of a home where these kinds of atrocities were perpetrated, and hence complicit in them?