The news-magazine Tehelka has done another spycam exposé, this time with conspirators involved in the Gujarat riots of 2002. The Tehelka website is full of very bold claims regarding the importance of the statements made in the video footage they’ve captured, and thus far they’ve put up three YouTube videos to back up the hype. One spycam interview, with Babu Bajrangi of the Bajrang Dal, is here:
It’s in Hindi (sorry, no subtitles; UPDATE: a close English transcript of the video is here). Much of what he says about his own role is fairly chilling. At the very least this particular guy should probably go to prison for a very long time (as of the present moment I do not know whether any charges have been filed against him … UPDATE: Babu Bajrangi has in fact done eight months in prison, and is now out on bail, according to Himal Southasian).
There are also interviews with Arvind Pandya here and Ramesh Dave here; I haven’t watched them yet, but I thought I would give the links for readers who may be interested. If anyone wants to translate telling lines or sections of the videos for the benefit of our non-Hindi speaking readers, I would be grateful.
Tehelka claims that its spycam videos prove definitively that Narendra Modi gave direct approval for the killings in 2002, but I’m not sure, yet, that they do that (my views may change as I dive further into this). The video I saw does seem to add to the argument, which has been made consistently by Modi critics since 2002, that the killings weren’t a random upwelling of popular rage, but rather akin to an organized pogrom.
It’s also worth noting that the timing of this exposé can fairly be said to be a bit questionable — state elections are coming up in Gujarat in the next few weeks. There Modi may be in trouble not with Congress or Left parties, but because of dissatisfaction within the Sangh Parivar; both the RSS and the VHP have expressed dissatisfaction with him, stating that they aren’t supporting him in these elections. In the end Modi may finally be defeated, not by Tehelka, but by the Hindu right itself.
Actually let me rephrase that, economics is the way to go, social conditions are directly influential on economical conditions for most cases. Also, when you make it ‘socio’ for your policy, factors such as caste and religion automatically come in. I have deliberately not included sex based discrimination here, a whole can of worms by itself.
Banerjee report is quite shoddy. Excerpts below from TOI artcle:
If it was an accident, what prevented passengers from jumping out? Did they collectively commit sati?” asked Jaitley. The incident had sparked riots in Gujarat as it was alleged that local miscreants of a particular community had targeted the karsevaks.
It was then reported that the coach had been bolted from outside. The Banerjee report contradicts this in its findings but the judge provided no clue as to how the fire was caused.
Asked what exactly were his findings, the retired SC judge Banerjee said: “The final report also contains the same finding which I have stated in my interim report that the fire in S-6 coach of Sabarmati Express was accidental and not deliberate.”
Repeatedly asked if the final report was consistent with the interim one, he said: “Absolutely. It is consistent. I have no reason to change it.”
Note: Banerjee never gave the cause of fire.
Yup, I knew that was coming. 🙂
Agreed. I think that “socio” would come in when implementing a policy.
I asked two of my desh born gujarati flatmates about the fate of modi in these elections, the answer was he can only win.. because the alternative is either bull***t congress(their words) or the corrupt rebels like keshubhai, who they say are only rebelling because of not being given any ‘share’ of central assistance now and that the earthquake aid was siphoned off by keshubhai & his cronies. Any reference to the riots is shrugged off by saying that was past.
what pravin asks for is the same thing the christian right asks of muslims who they believe should be wearing large stickers or something on a daily basis saying “i condemn 9/11”. Gujaratis on this board have continuously stated that they believe the riots to be reprehensible, but that has not been enough. what gets me most about this thread is knowing half of you haven’t cared to research any of the past Gujarat riots where Hindus were the predominate victims until an outside, police force was called in to save their neighborhoods and no one has mentioned Akshardam or the Bombay train blasts, terrorists attacks aimed at Gujaratis. pravin and his ilk probably condone as fair revenge against all those hateful gujus who had it coming cause they aint wearing those gosh darn 2002 condemnation stickers. This is bigger than the riots, this is a mindset which is dangerous.
What is most clear is that the step to becoming a Hindutva supporter is a lot smaller than being a supporter of Christian fundamentalists/Islamic fundamentalists. get some perspective.
Yeah – and that’s exactly the hypocrisy of the presudo-secularwallahs. The morally bankrupt Manmohan Singh government cocked a snook at the country by appointing Jagdish Tytler – widely known as the butcher-in-chief of 1984 anti-sikh riots – as a central minister. Comparing death tolls in such tragedies is unseemly at best, but the fact is that a much higher number of Sikhs were killed by the Congress in 1984 than the number of people who lost their lives in Gujarat. In less than 3 days, over 4000 Sikhs were killed by Congress murderers while very few non-Sikhs lost their lives. Appointing a murderer like Tytler was perhaps the most shameful conduct of a central government, which is supposed to be held to a higher standard than a state government. Compare that with Gujarat riots in which, according to Gujarat government statistics, 790 Muslims and 254 Hindus were killed. In other words, five times as many Sikhs were killed by Congress in 1984 than Muslims in Gujarat. But compare the treatment of Congress-run central government vs. Modi’s state government by the media and the difference could not be more stark. There has been a relentless, non-stop campaign against Modi since 2002. However, Congress is still marketed by the media machine as a secular party along with the thugs Laloo and Mulayam while BJP is vilified as communal! Where is the rationality in this? Why isn’t Tehelka exposing the likes of Tytler or Sajjan Kumar or other Congress apparatchicks?
In a perfectly logical world, two wrongs do not make a right. However, the Indian media does not realize that it has lost all credibility – at least with the people of Gujarat- and just has not earned the moral authority to talk about communal issues. This is because for the last 60 years, they have been tacit partners of the pseudo-seculars in propagandizing the minority appeasement agenda. Sometimes the pseudo-secularwallahs themselves admit it. Amardeep himself wrote a post on it earlier, even Vir Sanghvi – a poster boy of pseudo-secularists – has admitted that when he commented on the recent Vadodara art department controversy.
Hindus have been watching this hypocritical treatment at the hands of the pseudo-secular media that has consistently cheapened the value of non-Muslim lives whether it is 1984 anti-Sikh riots, or 1992 Mumbai riots or Kashmir crisis when it erupted in 1989. So now you have a significant Hindu population that almost gets a perverse delight out of the shrillness of the anti-Modi campaign and uses it to actually mobilize around that! The shriller the campaign against Modi, the less credible it becomes in the eyes of the silent Hindu masses who have turned a critical gaze upon media itself and are not buying the party line any more.
That is the real reason why Modi will be re-elected in Gujarat. The more Indian media screams against him, the more exposed they get as anti-Hindu hypocrites. That, in turn, makes Modi even more popular. The whole thing has a sort of Kafkaesque irony to it – the source of Modi’s power is as much the fulminations, machinations and shrill rhetoric of the Teesta’s and Arundhati’s as it is his popularity among common Gujaratis. All Modi has to do is point a finger right back at them and tell the Gujarati masses to ask his detractors only one question : where were the Arundhati’s and Teesta’s when Hindus and Sikhs were getting killed by Muslims and Congress?
What is needed in India is a sort of truth and reconciliation commission along the lines of South Africa to publicly settle the many issues that are simmering below the surface. The malaise is much deeper than Hindu-Muslim animosity in Gujarat. It runs the whole gamut from Hindu fears and backlash against Christian proselytization to Islamic jihadi terrorism to Uniform Civil Code to reservations to Hinduphobia of the Indian media as well as the current ruling parties … yada yada yada. Sporadic acts of caste and communal violence in India need to be seen as symptoms of this much deeper malaise that poses a huge threat to the social fabric of India if left un-addressed.
Below are links for two insightful articles on Godhra. But a point to keep in mind is — The intelligence agencies are more reliable and trustworthy in these matters when compared to politicians/media reporting/Human rights groups and commissions.
You can go to the links for the full articles
The myth and truth of Godhra : – sm23.sulekha.com/blog/post/2007/10/the-myth-and-truth-of-godhra.htm
Interpol issues red-corner notice against key Godhra carnage accused http://www.rediff.com/news/2006/dec/16godhra.htm
Saukat Ahmed Charkha, one of the key accused in the infamous Godhra train carnage, was issued a red-corner notice for by the Interpol, police said in Vadodara.
Sources in the Special Investigating Team, which is probing the Godhra carnage, said Charkha, a member of the core group that conspired to set the Sabarmati Express on fire at Godhra station on February 27, 2002, was now in Pakistan. The Interpol had been given the whereabouts of the accused in Pakistan through the Central Bureau of Investigation.
wikipedia on godhra train burning
Here’s Mukul Kesawan defending the hypocrisy of pseudo-secular Indian media: INCONSISTENTLY LIBERAL.
Vishal@204: dude, you may have better luck convincing a Manhattan limo-liberal or a Berkeley hippie to vote for the KKK than convincing a Gujarati to vote for the Congress. Even before the communalization of Gujarati politics in the nineties, the Congress reign in the eighties was just unbelievably evil and a whole generation of Gujaratis have just not forgiven it. Chimanbhai Patel was perhaps the most corrupt chief minister in the history of the state while Madhavsingh Solanki and Amarsingh Chaudhary openly cultivated the Muslim gangsters involved in bootlegging. Those criminals unleashed a severe crime wave in Gujarat and terrorized the trading class through extortions and so on. The Congress then used the same Muslim criminals to kill Hindus in communal riots in 1985 (and, I think 1987 too). This was the original root cause of communalization of Gujaratis – prior to that, Hindus and Muslims lived quite amicably. In fact, even today Gujarat has the only significant Muslim middle class in the country – on a number of economic indicators, Muslims aren’t doing any worse than Hindus in Gujarat. However, the use of Muslim gangsters by Congress in killing Hindus in communal riots created a deep wedge between Hindus and Muslims, and gave an opening to the VHP in Gujarat. BJP then won over the powerful Patel caste and consolidated its gains in the nineties.
Unsurprisingly, it wasn’t the national media in India that reported any evil deeds of the Congress in eighties – the task was left to the Gujarati media, particularly the Gujarat Samachar. The height of Congress terror was seen by a stunned Gujarati population as Congress goons sent by Madhavsingh Solanki actually burnt down the Gujarat Samachar press in Ahmedabad when it reported killing of Hndus in communal riots! That was it – the next day Ahmedabad just erupted and the middle class was out in the streets baying for blood. That was the day that Congress lost Gujarat forever.
If you can understand post 209 and what Congress did in the eighties in collusion with the Muslim dons, only then can you understand Gujarat.
really@210: thank you. Now you know why my family and I will be very proud and happy voters for Mr Modi and the BJP in the upcoming election.
If your choosing to ignore the communal events of the eighties, then how can you understand the political landscape of Gujarat today? Gujarat was not a place of partition violence, oddly enough it was a place were communal tension began decades later.
Who said proud, they’re operating under perceptions that they’re saving their own asses by voting BJP. By the actions of Congress in the the eighties, what other choice do they have. The BJP is what the BJP is, if Congress wants to admit wrongs from the 80s, then Gujaratis would be more inclined to vote for them. Why would a Gujarati Hindu blindly vote for Congress in an election because of 2002 when the riots throughout the 80s showed Congress doing the same thing to his community?
There are two choices, both bad, but one is bad for you, which one do you choose.
@Really 212 : “There are two choices, both bad, but one is bad for you, which one do you choose.”
The void of a good political choice has been endemic in India. Atleast we got to the point to admit that modi is bad. Maybe after voting for him you can leash his ‘Inaction’ a bit or do we consider the bloody vengeance a good side effect ?
206: You selectively quote from 196 and conveniently ignore that I also mentioned 1984 in 196.
212: The lack of choice can be resolved if the national BJP leaders take appropriate action.
As suggested by the postings of “Take Action”, the BJP national leadership should throw out all the tainted BJP politicians out of their party and give tickets to newer people who did not participate in this killing.
Now people who don’t want to vote for congress can vote for these new BJP candidates instead of the mass murderers and their Godfathers/Godmothers.
yea, cause my condemning of the riots a few posts up surely portrayed that line of thought.
I have posted more than one comment on this thread justifying hunting down those responsible for the train killings. Try reading a few comments in this thread before making assumptions. I dont mind debunking assumptions if you didn’t know better. But the fact if you bothered to read this thread, it is clear I am for punishing criminals of any religion.
I’m just aghast that the final word in this conversation has gone to people who are rationalizing the massacres – which is what they were, not riots.
You’re right that communal polarization was sped up by the 1985 riots, although riots have been happening since 1714. The 1985 riots began as anti-reservation riots, and developed a communal character. Our local experts Gukkubhai and really have this fine, nuanced explanation for the rioting:
Question – Gujjubhai, since you know so much about it, do you have any figures about how many Hindus and Muslims dies in 1985?
Alternatively, if anyone’s interested in what really happened in 1985, here is an account by a committee that are experts in communal violence analysis, and actually knows what they’re talking about:
The fact that Gujjubhai’s political logic, and by his charge, that of the Gujarati electorate, operates at this level — “Where were the Arundhati’s and Teesta’s when Hindus and Sikhs were getting killed by Muslims and Congress? — is a clear, dismaying sign that hate triumphs logic, human rights and Constitutionality. There is no question of symmetry here. The Arundathis and Teestas are intervening to protect the human rights of a set of Indian citizens, even if you consider it too limited a set; they’re stopping anyone from standing up for Hindu victims of violence, and it should be remembered through all this that their political ideology means they are opposed, foremost, to state persecution, who tend to be Muslims in communal situations. So Arundathi does stand up for Hindus – displaced Hindus of the Narmada Valley, displaced Hindus of Nandigram – what you didnt notice? I mean, honestly, I dont even know where to begin countering arguments like this. They’re not befitting of anyone with an education.
The Congress had plenty of vile deeds – the Sikh massacres were the worst of them, and worse, in terms of killing, than Gujarat. The only reason people arent revisiting that with the same alacrity is that there is a feeling of security that it won’t come back: the Congress has formally apologized for it, and has no anti-Sikh agenda. I agree that Tytler should be hanged. The Sangh’s manufacturing of communal violence and rioting is well known and seems, if anything, to be a building phenomenon: ready to be launched in Madhya Pradesh, in Karnataka, anywhere that there is an election to be won. Once the ashes have settled and the dead have been buried, people like Gujjubhai and Really will walk in thumping their chests about how it was prefectly reasonable retribution.
By the way, I have personal experience of riots in a city. I was on a visit to India in 1989. There were riots in Vijayawada between two castes. one caste gang murdered another caste leader. Then all hell broke loose. A decent portion of the retail establishments got burned down. I did not know how serious it was until my cousin and I took a motorbike around the city. The madness was crazy. And it was half as bad as the Gujarati riots. Some people on a truck started screaming a caste name at us trying to see if we would react. We played it cool and they left us alone thinking we were not part of that caste. A doctor near my grandpa’s house was hacked to death in front of a lot of witnesses by some thugs taking advantage of a chaotic situation. The only difference – the killings were not government sanctioned. My cousins and I were armed with makeshift spears and sticks the next few days when it got dark. Fortunately, no further problems. Needless to say my vacation was ruined that year. But I do remember some cop chasing me down with a stick threatening to beat me up when I decided to take some pictures for my school paper after I returned to the US. He wasn’t interested in stopping the fire that was being lit up in front of us, but had the guts to go after me armed with a camera. Having been part of that scene, my first inclination was to look for people to help out on the street even when the cop was chasing me. I do not understand how neighbors just give up neighbors to be brutally killed.
By the way , Vishal@204, that has been my experience too. Responses ranged from “oh well, it’s over” to “that should teach them a lesson”.
I should have been clearer about my point, which is this: a supposedly pro-Muslim Congress administration will never be able to operate as communalized a government as a pro-Hindu, anti-Muslim Sangh government, simply because no one will ever be able to purge Hindus from the police, judiciary and bureaucracy. The BJP has very effectively begun to do that, eliminating Muslims, or at least eliminating them from the chain of command; what is most alarming about Tehelka’s expose is that the apparatus of check and balances, and law enforcement, within Gujarat has become completely compromised.
Thats why the Supreme Court had to transfer a criminal case (Best Bakery) to the Mumbai High Court for the first time, the implicit message, as anyone who followed the trials knows, is that the Ahmedabad High Court is essentially an acquittal-mechanism extension of the executive. Thats why the massacres didnt stop until the Centre sent in the Rapid Action Force. The persecution of a majority will never resemble, or even be analogous in practice, to the persecution of a minority, because the first requires a large amount of collusion from the persecuted group, which is hard if even possible to obtain. The latter only requires force and conviction.
Gujjubhai brings some fresh perspective to the discussion which is the major English newspapers do not tell the full story. One has to rely on the Gujarati press to know what is really happening.
All things remaining the same the Tehelka report will help Modi. Since it is perceived as congress sponsored and someone asked has Tehelka done any expose on Congress or on other communities. Media unwittingly aids in the communalising process.
Nizam of Sarakki: you have quoted from Teesta’s Sabrang website. Several others have praised Teesta here. Here is what she said shortly after the compartment was burnt down.
This week’s Muslim attack on Hindus has to be seen against that regional background and history as well as in the larger national context. The victims “were not going for a benign assembly”, Teesta Setalvad, the head of an anticommunalism group, told the Washington Post. “They were indulging in blatant and unlawful mobilisation to build a temple and deliberately provoke the Muslims in India.”
If you use Teestas logic and switch commnunities, you have an explantion of why it would be perfectly acceptable for hindus to kill muslims on Haj.
As you can see for yourself from her quote, Teestas comments are inflamatory, and full of lies and obvious factual errors. Unfortunatlty this was (and is) representative of the mainstream response of the ‘secular’ media and the muslim intellingensia. Such actions are one of the reasons why even natural liberals in India, are forced to either ignore violence at times or become hippocrates.
really@210: thank you. Now you know why my family and I will be very proud and happy voters for Mr Modi and the BJP in the upcoming election.
You are proud to vote for Modi?
ethnic cleansers would not be able to cleanse and commit atrocities without followers who gave them at least implicit support
i meant “give them”
Re: Sikh riots
(1) There is a difference between not voting for Modi who personally has blood on his hands and for not voting for a local Congress Party chief minister in the state of Tamil Nadu for what the Delhi Congress Party did to the Sikhs in 84.
(2) I neither have the time nor the inclination to dig up newspaper archives from 84, but I cant imagine the so called secular media giving a free pass to the rioters in 84. BJP was hardly a force in the 84, so why would the secular media ignore the Delhi pogrom of Sikhs in 84? Does the secular media hate Sikhs, a religious minority?
(3) I dont see this as a BJP v. Congress issue. This is an issue of majority Hindu violence on minority Muslims, Sikhs and Christians and not an issue of Congress/BJP violence on Muslims and Sikhs. The Indian Government has a piss poor record of protecting minorities be it the Sikhs in 84 or the Muslims in the Bombay riots/Gujarat riots.
(4) Who the f**k cares if the killers of Indian minorities are Congress Party or BJP or some new party. The problem is with the STATE being complicit and becoming an accomplice while the goons on the streets are given a free pass and sometimes abetted. That is the problem.
(5)I was in India in 2004 and met plenty of Sikhs in Delhi. There were lively discussions on the Gujarat riots and not a single Sikh either defended Modi or provided vile obfuscation masqueraded as providing context which some people are trying to do on here. I didnt hear a single comment from any Sikh about disparate media treatment of the two riots.
(6) FYI, there were local Congress leaders in Ahmedabad who led mobs against Muslims in Gujarat. Lets stop making this an issue of secular media v. BJP but an issue of the State failing to protect and actually targeting its own citizens. Modi has to go and so do the Congress MPs who led the mobs against Sikhs in Delhi.
Manmohan Singh should be ashamed of himself for not going after the killers of Sikh in his own party.
The dynamic in India has changed since the 80s. The Sikhs and the Muslims have buried the hatchet for the most part. Hopefully the Hindus and the Muslims in India will also move on one day and forget about past conflicts.
ACD he is not the only one by far who is proudly going to vote for Modi. From reading the comments and talking to people who have expressed similar sentiments This is how their logic goes: hindus were wronged in the 1980s, 1780s you take your pick. Hindus in Kashmir are being victimized (what that had to do with the muslims living in Gujarat in 2002 I don’t know how are they responsible for the anti-hindu violence in the past is a question nobody has answered) Congress has pandered to muslims and other minorities to win election The secularist (i.e. anyone who doesn’t agree with them) media only feel sorry for the minority victims. So it is OK for a head of a state government to use the government apparatus to murder, brutally victimize, steal from the hated other. Its all OK and good. He is just defending Hindu pride, Gujarati Asmita, Modi is good for the state, the economy is growing, things are good if you are a Gujarati of the right religion so there is no shame in voting him into office again and again. And how dare anybody question them about their complicity in the atrocities this man has committed under their name. If you do it must be because you are a secularist, whatever that is, you must hate hindus and condone violence against hindus.
228 Reposted to correct the typos:
From reading the comments and talking to people who have expressed similar sentiments This is how their logic goes: hindus were wronged in the 1980s, 1780s you take your pick. Hindus in Kashmir are being victimized (what that had to do with the muslims living in Gujarat in 2002 I don’t know how are they responsible for the anti-hindu violence in the past is a question nobody has answered) Congress has pandered to muslims and other minorities to win elections The secularist (i.e. anyone who doesn’t agree with them) media only feels sorry for the minority victims. So it is OK for a head of a state government to use the government apparatus to murder, brutally victimize, steal from the hated other. Its all OK and good. He is just defending Hindu pride, Gujarati Asmita, Modi is good for the state, the economy is growing, things are good if you are a Gujarati of the right religion so there is no shame in voting him into office again and again. And how dare anybody question them about their complicity in the atrocities this man has committed under their name. If you do it must be because you are a secularist, whatever that is and you must hate hindus and condone violence against hindus.
Chitta@214 : My comment wasn’t specifically directed at you, I used it to make a larger point about the anti-Hindu hypocrisy of Indian media in its treatment of Congress vs BJP. Modi is demonized, Sonia/Manmohan/Tytler are not.
Nizam@217: It’s not about how many Hindus died in the riot – it’s about how the anti-Hindu attitude of Congress, plus a lot of other things. I don’t think the significance of the burning down of Gujarat Samachar press has sunk in to you, so let me put it in American terms : imagine a republican governor of New York burning down the NY Times press in an attempt to silence that newspaper. You had to live through those days as a terrified Hindu to really appreciate the magnitude of what happened. For example, waking up to see a headline that Abdul Latif, a major Muslim gangster in Ahmedabad was elected unopposed from not one, not two, but four separate constituencies in Ahmedabad municipal corporation and there was a real specter of his goons running the city. Also, it’s not my logic when I make the point about Teesta’s and Arundhati’s – I saind that in a perfect world, two wrongs would not make a right. I said that it’s how Modi would argue his case. I think you are being facetious with your points about Arundhati standing up for Hindus in Narmada case – and I think you are smart enough to know exactly why.
Nizam@219: Again, it doesn’t matter that you can’t purge Hindus from the police or administration – the police and the administration will do what their political masters tell them to do. See UP under Mulayam or Bihar under Laloo – the same Hindu majority police forces and administration are unable to check the power of Muslim gangsters and warlords receiving political patronage. I also think that your point about persecution of minority vs majority is not backed by evidence – minoroities have been and continue to be much more privileged than majority in India. Hell, hindus can’t even operate their own temples or schools unlike Muslims or Christians!
ACfD@222: yes. Doesn’t mean I support his complicity in the riots – I don’t. In a perfect world, I’d rater see him without that blemish. But if I can learn to live with a Manmohan Singh smiling next to Jagdish Tytler, I can learn to live with Modi too. Apart from the riots, everything else he has done for Gujarat is stupendous. Ahmedabad today has the best infrastructure of any major city in India, business is booming, the government is efficient and corruption/bribing from lower levels of the government has pretty well disappeared. Bureaucracy actually works!
ACfd@225: again, given that my choice is limited to voting for either the Congress or the BJP, I choose to vote for a party that has five times less blood on its hands, and supports uniform civil code as opposed to the Congress that enacted a constitutional amendment to overturn a Supreme Court judgment in favor of equal rights for Muslim women. There is no party in India that I despise more than the Congress for its utter destruction of the social fabric of the Indian society through its 50 years of divide-and-rule policy that pitted castes against castes, religions against religions, appeased minorities and persecuted Hindus.
BJP was hardly a force in the 84,
Not nation wide, however, BJP has always been a very powerful force in Delhi – right from its previous name/ incarnation Jana Sangh.
It goes back to refugees in parts of Delhi often voting for Jana Sangh/ Janata Party (in 1976)/ BJP.
In 1984, BJP supporters actively saved Sikhs – even Vajayapee. This has been documented by witnesses and various commission reports.
If as you are saying the option is between choosing a Congress that is messed up and a BJP that is murderous, how the f*** can you and your family feel proud of this, if anything you should feel depressed and disgusted that your options are choosing between two non options. And if things are as messed up as you say they are and people feel that, how can an enterprising community like the Gujjus not come up with a better leader, are there not independents you guys can vote for and support? HOw come Modi is celebrated as a hero? Or is it simply that the dislike for Muslims in Gujarat is so great that what Modi and his likes done gets forgiven (and even forgotten) and thus the need for developing new leadership does not have to be considered. Only desperate times call for desperate measures and maybe Gujarat does not feel things are that desperate.
Not nation wide, however, BJP has always been a very powerful force in Delhi – right from its previous name/ incarnation Jana Sangh.
So is your contention that the media pussy footed the role of Congress in the pogroms against Sikhs in Delhi for providing electoral advantage to the Congress Party?
Btw, Congress won all 7 seats in Delhi in the 84 elections with Congress candidates winning atleast 60% to 75% of the votes in all 7 seats. That of course is evidence of the moral depravity of Delhi voters more than anything else.
Yogi@229: haven’t you heard the first rule of politics that says that all politics is local? If Modi can actually get roads built, have electricity sector privatized, attract investment, create jobs, make the administration more efficient, provide uninterrupted electricity and water to Gujarati homes and factories, and at least have a reputation for being personally non-corrupt (i.e., not taking bribes etc) then what’s the incentive for the electorate to throw him out of power?
ACfD@225: it’s not only about how the media treated the Congress in 1984, it’s about how they’ve continued to treat them since. I didn’t hear a peep out of the pseudo-secular media when Tytler was appointed a cabinet minister by MMS in 2004. Sure, there was some noise and he resigned after some commission’s report came out and he went riding happily into retirement but that was nothing compared to what Modi has been subjected to. Another problem with your comment is that you continue to only talk about state complicity in violence against minorities whereas before the rise of the BJP, much of the violence was, in fact, directed against Hindus by the Congress. See their creation of Bhindranwale in the late 70’s, for example. For many years, it was Hindus in Punjab who were killed by Congress-inspired Khalistanis. Until the media and the Indian society in general at least acknowledges the wrongs perpetrated against Hindus – and I am not talking about 1700’s or 1800’s, this is post-independence modern India – then the social tensions in Indian society will continue to simmer and occasionally explode the way they did in Gujarat. Make no mistake – every time the pseudo-secular media lets the government go free or blame the RSS for Muslim terrorism when a Varanasi temple gets bombed or an Akshardham gets attacked, this is just going to get worse.
This is really the point that most analysts miss – how much of the rise of Hindutva a backlash against the persecution of Hindus. Think about this : until the eighties, Gujarat was actually a Congress citadel. With two small exceptions, Gujarat was ruled uninterruptedly by the Congress for 35 years – all the way to 1995. Why and how did that change? I can tell you from personal experience that till early nineties, there was very little communalization of the average joe. Neighborhoods were mixed, schools were mixed, and common people had friends from both religions. The ghettoization began in late eighties – early nineties. Why?
There’s a lot more here than meets the eye. Hindu-bashing or Gujju-bashing or forming opinions about people based on their voting preferences is intellectually lazy : there needs to be a much better effort at understanding the nuances and complexities. What I do think – and quite frankly, what worries me the most – is that what happened in Gujarat is a harbinger to what is going to happen in India. That is not a good outcome : the kind of communalization of society that happened in Gujarat will just tear apart the country if it spread elsewhere. Choosing BJP as the lesser of the two evil is still not a net positive for India – it’s just less negative than choosing Congress.
Nigeria doesn’t have the same levels of violence, nor does Indonesia, Egypt, the Balkans, or other multi-ethnic states.
I haven’t read a lot on some of the countries you cited but the Balkans of course have had levels of violence through the recent century that are comparable to india and even surpasses india. I’m glad in india at least we haven’t had concentration camps set up killing innocents who have been their neighbors for decades.
I see a lot of similarities in what has happened in the balkans to what has/is happening in India. Both areas of the world have seen centuries of empires come and go, one group conquering another, and the memory (however long ago) is recent in the minds of some people, enough to cause pograms. This book, my sister had to read in one of her college classes was eye-opening on the historical memory that can cause one to see your neighbors, people who’ve you’ve been having neighborly relationships for years, to become the villain from 7 centuries back. – blood and vengeance
Gujjubhai: As I mentioned before, I dont really care about the BJP. Congress leaders were leading mobs against Muslims in Gujarat and Congress leaders have been instrumental in violence against Sikhs in 84 and Muslims in Meerut 87, Bhagalpur 88 and other sectarian riots long before the BJP came into prominence. I dont see it as a BJP v. Secular issue. I believe that the state governments in India need to protect the lives of citizens and not become abetters in sectarian violence.
Another problem with your comment is that you continue to only talk about state complicity in violence against minorities whereas before the rise of the BJP, much of the violence was, in fact, directed against Hindus by the Congress. See their creation of Bhindranwale in the late 70’s, for example. For many years, it was Hindus in Punjab who were killed by Congress-inspired Khalistanis.
This is a preposterous rendition of history. You think the Khalistani terrorists were pro-Congress? The whole Khalistani terrorism was in response to the pogrom of Sikhs committed by the Congress Party. Bhindranwale was used by Congress to initially divide Sikhs and then when he turned militant Indira Gandhi sent tanks into the Golden Temple. Again this just proves my point that the governments in India (either Congress or the BJP) cannot protect minorities.
And its just not minorities that the Indian government cannot protect. Its also the lower caste, poor and all marginalized sections of the Indian society. I understand that India is a 3rd world country and the disregard for human life is at par with other 3rd world cesspools.
For example, a few years back, some gay rights groups came out to march in Calcutta and protestors showed up to throw rocks at the marchers. The police actually joined the protestors in throwing rocks!
Hopefully with economic progress, things will improve at all levels including human rights.
That’s right.. The key is the demographics and numbers. It is not specific to any religion. If Hindus are minority in a region they are again not protected by the government. Like we see in Kashmir or other Muslim majority villages / districts in India.
i get your points; but acd and others are not criticizing these people for voting in favor of a non-corrupt administration. but at some level these choices are also moral. in other words, voters are being criticized because their preferences for a non-corrupt regime overrides other considerations such as not voting for a person who could be tried for major crimes against humanity in a fair court of law. at the least the latter does not matter to them as much as other issues. yes they are being rational in a sense, but that does not prevent other moral considerations being excluded as the basis of that rationality (for e.g. they could choose not to vote at all). and i think most people agree that the congress is just as culpable; since the 60s they have cynically exploited both religious and caste divisions. but the parties are essentially playing off each other (each needs the other to succeed)…
That’s right.. The key is the demographics and numbers. It is not specific to any religion. If Hindus are minority in a region they are again not protected by the government. Like we see in Kashmir or other Muslim majority villages / districts in India.
I agree that the key is demographics and numbers.
ACfD@236: my point was that Congress created Bhindranwale and used him as part of a larger divide-and-rule strategy whose victims were Hindus. Bhindranwale turned into an uncontrollable Frankenstein, but he was originally a Congress creation. Just as the Congress used their KHAM and BHAM strategies in India which sowed the first seeds of communal discord in India.
Ardy@232: I am proud of what he has accomplished for Gujarat. You need to understand what dire straits Gujarat was in when MOdi came to power. Gujarat was devastated by the 2001 earthquakes. The economy was in shambles, morale was low, businesses were going bankrupt. Anti-Narmada movement was at its peak, even as many parts of Gujarat were stricken by a drought and Gujarati farmers were in despair due to lack of water. In less than 5 years, Modi engineered the greatest economic turnaround in the history of Gujarat, and brought it back to be the #1 state in the country. He took on the bureaucracy and pushed reforms in the electricity sector – something that no state in India has been able to do. Today, Gujarat is once again the state of opportunity and enterprise and the credit for that largely goes to him. Even more importantly, he broke the Congress hegemony on his way to accomplishing all this for Gujarat. Of course, I would’ve preferred to feel proud of his accomplishments without the riot albatross hanging around his neck. However, I also think that his riot-engineering tactics are behind him because now the Gujaratis are more concerned about social stability to protect their prosperity. So, going forward, he is the best bet for Gujarat.
Gujjubhai, So you are saying BJP rule is bad for the country but good for Gujarat, that doesn’t make any sense. How is it intellectually lazy to conclude that you support the platform of whoever you are voting for. Virulent hatred of the minorities especially muslim and sometimes christian, is the foundation that the Sangh Parivar, of which BJP is but one arm is built on. Getting roads built and not accepting bribes is all very nice but there are somethings for which there should be no forgiveness, ethnic cleansing, presiding over the killing of thousands, you are charged to protect and making incendiary remarks to foment even more violence should not be forgivable but sadly it is in today’s India it is and even helps you wins elections.
I do agree with you on one point Congress is as morally bankrupt as the BJP, yes they have been incompetent in their governance and their dynastic succession is revolting but at least their main goal is not hate. Yes the pickings are slim in any Indian election but that doesn’t let the people of Gujarat (who are Modi supporters) off the hook for repeatedly installing Modi into power.
Btw, Congress won all 7 seats in Delhi in the 84 elections with Congress candidates winning atleast 60% to 75% of the votes in all 7 seats. That of course is evidence of the moral depravity of Delhi voters more than anything else. ACD,
You are twisting history.
In 1984, Congress won landside nation wide. It was a backlash vote against assassination of Indira Gandhi. People who never voted for Congress, voted for Congress in the entire nation.
Nobody ever charged the entire Congress machinery in Delhi of complicity but there is proof that parts of Delhi Congress leadership and Delhi police of direct abetting and/ or inaction.
The cover of this week India Today is “Mob Rule“…….mob violence in India cuts across religion, caste, economics.
Also, peak of Khalistani terrorism predates 1984.
Sorry, typos : “Just as the Congress used their KHAM and BHAM strategies in
IndiaGujarat which sowed the first seeds of communal discord inIndiaGujarat.”Sigh!@239: my moral choices are restricted to someone whom I utterly despise as being morally bankrupt like Congress or the BJP which has less blood on its hands than the Congress. How’s that different from choosing corrupt Democrats or war-mongering Republicans in the US? It’s funny you should talk about war criminals when I see no prospect of a Kissinger or a Bush being hauled in the Hague.
Unfortunately, this is a fundamental flaw of the democratic system – as vote banks consolidate around rival power centers based on identity politics, it’s the more extreme factions that tend to become powerful. Over a long enough period of time, centrists will lose power in most democratic societies unless the national mythos and character are very firmly established in liberal ethos and there is sufficient distribution of power across institutions run by other centrists. Canada vs. US is a great example of this.
🙂 Well, I find that not many Americans regard any Iraqi Muslim life as something worthy in US (a first world “civilized” country) compared to a US soldier..
You are twisting history.
How so? Are you disputing my numbers? I got the numbers from the Indian Election Commission website. I do understand that the Congress Party swept to power because of the sympathy vote across the nation. However, as I stated earlier, there is a difference between someone in Orissa voting for the Congress Party in 84 and people living in Chandni Chowk voting for the Congress Party in 84 after Congress party members were involved in the massacre of Sikhs in Chandni Chowk. Yes, so I do believe that shame on Delhi people who voted for the Congress Party in 84.
Nobody ever charged the entire Congress machinery in Delhi of complicity but there is proof that parts of Delhi Congress leadership and Delhi police of direct abetting and/ or inaction.
Yes but its a well known fact that both Sajjan Kumar and Jagdish Tytler were leading mobs. They sat in the Parliament as representatives of Delhi voters and they were personally leading mobs against the Sikhs! Rajiv Gandhi stated on the mayhem ‘When a big tree falls, the earth shakes’. Of course the earth shake here was the mass killings and rape of the Sikhs.
Also, peak of Khalistani terrorism predates 1984.
Simply untrue. The death toll by Khalistani terrorists after the death of Indira Gandhi in 84 was multifold compared to the deaths caused by Khalistani terrorists before the death of India Gandhi in 84.
“:-) Well, I find that not many Americans regard any Iraqi Muslim life as something worthy in US (a first world “civilized” country) compared to a US soldier.. “
Iraqis aren’t US citizens are they? Do you think ‘low caste’ people in India are citizens of another country?
The cover of this week India Today is “Mob Rule”…….mob violence in India cuts across religion, caste, economics.
Kush: Is it accessible online?
Well.. I was responding to this
See the words in bold.. It was talking about “human life” and not “citizen’s life”..
Moreover I don’t think ‘low caste’ people are citizens of other country. That would make me a non-citizen of India. 🙂
Yes, but it’s pretty obvious the author was talking about human life IN INDIA… not in some far of country like Iraq is to the USA.