The news-magazine Tehelka has done another spycam exposé, this time with conspirators involved in the Gujarat riots of 2002. The Tehelka website is full of very bold claims regarding the importance of the statements made in the video footage they’ve captured, and thus far they’ve put up three YouTube videos to back up the hype. One spycam interview, with Babu Bajrangi of the Bajrang Dal, is here:
It’s in Hindi (sorry, no subtitles; UPDATE: a close English transcript of the video is here). Much of what he says about his own role is fairly chilling. At the very least this particular guy should probably go to prison for a very long time (as of the present moment I do not know whether any charges have been filed against him … UPDATE: Babu Bajrangi has in fact done eight months in prison, and is now out on bail, according to Himal Southasian).
There are also interviews with Arvind Pandya here and Ramesh Dave here; I haven’t watched them yet, but I thought I would give the links for readers who may be interested. If anyone wants to translate telling lines or sections of the videos for the benefit of our non-Hindi speaking readers, I would be grateful.
Tehelka claims that its spycam videos prove definitively that Narendra Modi gave direct approval for the killings in 2002, but I’m not sure, yet, that they do that (my views may change as I dive further into this). The video I saw does seem to add to the argument, which has been made consistently by Modi critics since 2002, that the killings weren’t a random upwelling of popular rage, but rather akin to an organized pogrom.
It’s also worth noting that the timing of this exposé can fairly be said to be a bit questionable — state elections are coming up in Gujarat in the next few weeks. There Modi may be in trouble not with Congress or Left parties, but because of dissatisfaction within the Sangh Parivar; both the RSS and the VHP have expressed dissatisfaction with him, stating that they aren’t supporting him in these elections. In the end Modi may finally be defeated, not by Tehelka, but by the Hindu right itself.
Inaction is the greatest harm a leader(i hate to call him that) can do in moments of crisis.
Inaction is what kalyan singh took refuge in, when he said no to gunfire on the kar sevaks atop the structure. In all this, what i am worried about is the growing intolerance in hindus.. the seepage of tit for tat mentality.
I think people of India and Indian diaspora can do something beyond just discussing this in egroups and blogs.
The Tehelka tapes confirm the crimes of the Gujarat RSS/BJP/VHP leadership. They should not get away with this.
The RSS/BJP/VHP leadership is not directly tainted by this. Nor are the other parties of the NDA coalition, some of which still support them.
So consider the possibility of thousands or millions of people sending letters, faxes (and in the worst case emails as they are often ignored) saying to Advani/Vajpayee/Jaitley/etc. (the BJP national leadership) that you better denounce the tainted leaders of your party in Gujarat or be ready to show your real face to rest of India.
Yes, Mr. Modi led his party to victory in Gujarat after the 2002 incident. But one should not forget that the NDA lost after that.
So if the rest of the country and the good Gujuratis tell Mr. Advani/Vajpayee/Jaitley/etc. in no uncertain terms that this is a second chance to them. In 2002 they wiggled out but now the Tehelka tapes show the truth and if they (Mr. Advani/Vajpayee/Jaitley/) do not want to be clubbed together with Mr. mass murderer Modi then they should immediately suspend all the tainted leaders of Gujarat from their party.
Here are some links:
For lazy people here are some emails of bjp and nda bigwigs:
, , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , ,
Some Addresses:
Vajapayee: http://www.bjp.org/leader/atalji.htm Address A-302, Laplaz, Lucknow (Uttar Pradesh) Tel. (0522) 220909 Present Address 6-A, Krishna Menon Marg, New Delhi-110011
Advani: http://www.bjp.org/leader/lka-profile.htm Address : 30 Prithvi Raj Road, New Delhi – 110 003 INDIA Phone No. : 011-23794124, 011-23794125 Fax No. : 011-23017419 E-mail : advanilk@sansad.nic.in
Rajnath Singh: http://www.bjp.org/leader/jan_0206_p.htm
BJP members of Lok Sabha: http://www.bjp.org/paip.htm http://164.100.24.208/ls/lsmember/partydetail.asp?cname=Bharatiya%20Janata%20Party
BJP Members of Rajya Sabha: http://www.bjp.org/today/Rajya_Sabha_Members.htm
===============
Let us spread the word in Internet sphere (blogs, emails, yahoo groups etc. etc.). Let millions of people write and fax to Vajpayee and Advani and lets see if they come to their senses and throw these killers out of their party and coalition.
If one sends an email, for more impact, one may cc to the news paper editors. Here is a list. That way the news paper editors can maintain a count of how many people are writing to Vajpayee and Advani and the reaction of Mr. Vajpayee and Mr. Advani will tell all of India whether they are party to the killing (by condoning it) or they are real statesman which they project themselves to be.
, , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , “manorama” , “Shishir Bhate” ,
Following up on 152:
Emails of BJP and NDA bigwigs:
advanilk@sansad.nic.in, ashourie@sansad.nic.in, bjpco@bjp.org, bjpco@del3.vsnl.net.in, bpapte@vsnl.com, chandan.mitra@sansad.nic.in, covdnhrc@nic.in, gandhim@sansad.nic.in, george@sansad.nic.in, iisatwal@hotmail.com, jaswant@sansad.nic.in, jualoram@sansad.nic.in, kjana@sansad.nic.in, mnaqvi@sansad.nic.in, mprasad@nic.in, msgill@sansad.nic.in, murli@sansad.nic.in, mvnaidu@sansad.nic.in, najmah@sansad.nic.in, rajnath@sansad.nic.in, spokesman_rss@yahoo.com, swaraj@sansad.nic.in, vajpayee@sansad.nic.in, ysinha@sansad.nic.in
Emails of editors of some Indian media:
admin@dailypratap.com, ankur@jaintv.com, arindam.sengupta@timesgroup.com, dr.jain@jaintv.com, editet@timesgroup.com, editor@deccanmail.com, editor@the-week.com, feedback@tehelka.com, karanthapar@itvindia.net, letters@deccanherald.co.in, letters@tribuneindia.com, lngoel@zeenetwork.com, npnawani@indiatimes.com, nsuri@milap.com, pjoshi@hindustantimes.com, prabhu@intoday.com, punit.jain@timesgroup.com, punjabidigest@hotmail.com, pvohra@hindustantimes.com, rajc@intoday.com, ratnam@intoday.com, shishir.joshi@aajtak.com, thehindu@vsnl.com, toieditorial@timesgroup.com, vmehta@outlookindia.com, vsanghvi@hindustantimes.com, shishirb@rediff.co.in
Nope, but it will allow me to generalize an entire group.
I didn’t know politics was so black and white in the subcontinent that because there is guy like Modi in power, it throws 55 million Gujaratis under the bus. Politics and reasons why certain individuals are in power are not as linear as people would like to take comfort in.
Using the same logic: If anyone is a democrat, they’re unpatriotic. Since Bush is in power, all Americans are bad. Ahmadinejad is in power, so all Iranians are blood thristy crackpots. Venezuelans elected Hugo Chavez, so they’re all support a greater socialist apparatus.
Such logic just doesn’t work…
Politics in India is a very dirty affair and that doesn’t make it right, nor does it make it a simple zero sum game.
Why is India susceptible to such whims? People are uneducated, religious tension does exist, governments are inept to ineffective with standards fluctuating, and local populations are worried about many more things that affect their daily lives.
It’s still a long road for the subcontinent at least when it comes to a greater understanding of civic responsibility to fellow citizens and having a government that truly operates and applies justice in a blind manner, without all the other underground bullshit. In Gujarat you’ve got the religious side, but in Bihar you’ve got upper/lower caste battles. One should continue calling a duck a duck and not back down, but it simply doesn’t make sense to paint everyone with the same brush. It’s like sa
One of the reasons Modi is facing dissent (not only for the right wing guys) is because of his heavy handed tactics in the state. If one rises up the chain via fear, those insecure and fearful will find a way to fight back.
Gujudude. It is not just the fact that he got elected. The ratio of praise compared to criticism if very high in Modi’s case. When an Asian American association invites him over the US and whose members feel pissed that he got rejected, that is more than mere courtesy of an existing Chief Minister. If you did an OPEN survey on Chavez, you will see plenty of opposition to in addition to praise. There is a limitation on press over there. Anyway, like I said, I am waiting for Gujaratis to show us a different side. By your handle, you are one. What is your take on Modi and his underlings? You can bust the stereotype right now.
You need to read all the comments before you make assumptions on why I generalized. It is not just mere acceptance of what happened, but a certain validation of what happened that I have seen in almost every Gujarati Hindu I have met or read on the net. I even explained this earlier that I could be wrong, and let’s see some anecdotes. You had a chance to tell us that your family or your relatives , or in your experience, the majority of the community is against what happened even if they sucked it in and voted for Modi because the alternative party had a rep that probably took part in the rail killings. Do I see that? No, I see this thing on Chavez and others which has no significance because there is opposition to Chavez even among Venezuelans. And this is not a Venezuela blog. We can take such discussions to mydd or redstate.
It is not just mere acceptance of what happened, but a certain validation of what happened that I have seen in almost every Gujarati Hindu I have met or read on the net.
Dude you should chill with the melodramatic witch-hunting and group-baiting, giving people “chances” as thoough they owe you anything. Ask “Yo Dad” what he think about it all, or even Abhi.
Pravin,
I think your generalizations are getting tired, it is better if you can back these up with something other than anecdotal evidence, if not please refrain as I don’t think any one is interested in reading the Gujarati pissfest.
Modi government bans news channels beaming tehelka videos
Read my earlier comments. I clearly limit what my sources are and admit to generalizing based on that. We are talking in circles here. And I do not literally mean prove yourself to me. I mean that if you are going to get sensitive about my generalization,then here is your chance to prove that wrong. (and while it will take more than one or two to do that, it will still help people like me pause for a minute before we put out blanket statements). If you do not care to explain yourself, you are obviously free to do so, but then do not whine about my generalization. That is all I meant.
And I should qualify my comment by limiting my generalization to DBD NRI Gujarati Hindus. So Abhi would not qualify( i assume he is Gujarati by your comment, but he is free to talk about his family reactions if he feels like it. It doesnt mean he owes me a thing.)
Pravin: First off, if you’re using comments on the intraweb as your sole source of ‘impression’ then you’re not doing an academic enough job of doing your own homework. Sorry to say, but just because you don’t know about opposition, doesn’t mean it does not exist. That is solipsism. So, your lack of knowledge is not a valid reason to make a generalization. Do you have data to back up your ‘ratio’? Has the overall Gujarati community been surveyed in the United States? The NRI population here isn’t even representative of Gujarat, nor those in organizations inviting Modi representative of the people here. Fundamentalist types tend to be very vocal. Do you put muslims in the same category, too? Because that is one of the well rehearsed complaints. There aren’t enough muslims speaking out against the likes of AQ, so they’re ALL bad. Not that simple, is it?
Secondly, I’m an American. I do have connections back in Gujarat and everyone says the same thing – Modi is a semi dictator who has used fear to get ahead and consolidate power (along with some shady thuggish/mob) type shit, too. He has pushed for getting projects done, which previous governments did not, therefore distracting from his abuses of power. Also, if you’re going to use me as one example to shatter the ‘stereotype’ so be it, but I’m not representative of the people of Gujarat either. I’m an educated, American (who happens to be Gujarati), who isn’t religious, and doesn’t live there. Read what I said earlier in this thread – the rule of law should not be flaunted by those entrusted with maintaining/protecting it. Which means Modi is negligent at best, a conspirator at worst. He shouldn’t be in power. However, as it goes with politics in republics, the opposition has to mount a good campaign and strategy to ensure a guy like him gets tossed OR the CBI/Central government needs to grow a pair and take do a better job of enforcing law. Kinda like how the FBI and others will go after corrupt politicians here.
I don’t mean to speak for risible but Pravin your premise is so flawed that is is laughable. You are the one making all the generalization so the onus of proof is upon you, no one here is obligated to do your dirty work because you want to continue making sweeping generalizations about people from Gujarat and Gujarati diaspora.
Also, with India’s parliamentary system, check and balances aren’t the same as us here in the United States, which results in the pendulum swinging at greater amplitudes. The courts are archaic and dire need of reform among plenty of other government institutions. The CBI/Police is far more susceptible to political pressure than say our FBI is.
Ditto.
Its interesting that the Hinduvta crowd is more upset at Pravin for making generalizations than at Modi for his role in the riots.
Completely agreeing with ACD
To the people who are castigating Pravin for tarring all Gujaratis with a broad brush. I have a question for you: what do you think of the people in Gujarat who voted to reelect Modi and are his proud supporters even to this date.
Check out Raj # 135 and #137.
What explains his popularity, but the fact that what he did, had the blessings of many in the state of Gujarat, which was nothing short of state sponsored terrorism against its own citizens, who only happened to practice a different religion. Modi should be in jail not running for reelection.
ACD: I am NOT part of the Hindutva crowd, which is one of the things people are saying here. All Gujaratis aren’t part of the Hindutva crowd. Trying to discuss a generalization is not mutually exclusive with being pissed at Modi.
The CBI/Police is far more susceptible to political pressure than say our FBI is. Gujudude,
Sure, United States is a mature, liberal democracy that has had 200 years of growing pains, India, only 60 years old as a democracy, and that too with huge burden of poverty, and other issues to tackle through. Events like Godhra or even the train incident should never happen.
However,
Ever heard of J. Edgar Hoover, the FBI witch hunting during McCarthy days, all the muzzling even by FBI during civil rights movement (FBI has a mixed record at best during 60s, and at state level, the less said is better), all the activities of CIA-FBI combined during Vietnam War, and Nixon administration, Watergate scandal where both CIA and FBI were tainted for later coverups to some degree, for that matter right now………..have you been reading all the recent memos by Department of Justice leaked to the press, and both CIA and FBI are involved in questionable things.
CBI is a Central Government organization in India, and is run the government at the center.
The party in power at Center is Congress, and arch enemy of BJP. Congress will love to take BJP down in Gujarat. For some reason, CBI has not been able to connect the dots to Narendra Modi, and 2002 Godhra riots. This is not to proove or disproove his level of involvement. FYI, The maximum opposition Narendra Modi is seen is within India itself..Congress, Arundhati Roy, and many others.
Here is wikipedia on Godhra riots.
I am not sure what disagreeing with Pravin has to do with being hindutva crowd. I personally am in no way a modi supporter, that doesn’t mean I can’t call out someone on their irresponsible generalizations.
Gujudude & brown: Fair enough though I was not specifically alluding to the two of you.
Let me rephrase: Its interesting that some people are more upset at Pravin for making generalizations than at Modi for his role in the riots as evidenced by their lack of reaction to the expose.
For the record, I dont agree with Pravin in the entirety.
From the transcripts and tapes it is clear that the perpetrators did this because they were assured protection by the biggies in the state. The biggies in the state could do this because (i) they did not think their leaders in Delhi (read Advani/Vajapayee etc.) would take action against them and (ii) they have the support of the people.
To break this chain, and any future such chain, one can start with the leaders in Delhi.
(a) Force them to take action. Force Vajpayee/Advani to make decision. Either they cut ties with the RSS/VHP/BJP leadership in Gujarat against whom there is now evidence (may be not admissible in court) or unmask themselves to the country and to their NDA allies that they are supporters/condoners of mass murderers.
(b) If even after that the Gujurati people elect the mass murderers the rest of the country will know where Gujarat and its people stand.
I would urge the readers to do something beyond just writing in this comment board. If this disgusts you at least send a mail to Vajapayee and Advani.
Kush: Of course I’ve heard of Hoover and the history you quote. I’d appreciate it if you could state it without asking if I’ve ever heard of it (I don’t think it’s your intent, but it sounds patronizing). I agree with the content of your post – the United States has had growing pains and the institutions aren’t clean. What I wrote said the CBI is MORE susceptible to political pressure than the FBI. I don’t have data to back it up, so, beyond that statement I can’t add much to it. Not that the FBI is completely immune to any pressure. However, my key issue is with the structure of organizations in India and how, as a result, it results in more instability. Due process needs to be as transparent and efficient as possible – do you disagree that the courts, police, and other law/enforcement needs reform? A guy like Modi should not have the kind of influence he wields, nor should people here in the United States.
Wasn’t the BJP in power at the central when the riots occurred?
Lets also not pussyfoot around Modi’s complicity. I remember a conversation with a StarNews reporter a few years back and he told me that mobs were roaming the streets looking for Muslims within 500 yards of Modi’s compound. In fact things were so bad at one time, that when Star News was leaving Modi’s compound in a car, the mob outside Modi’s compound checked out the IDs of all the car passengers to look for Muslims.
To me, there is no doubt that the instigations were politically guided. Folks like Bajrang Dal or VHP are the ‘militant’ wings. They’re thugs and gangs who’re political tools and used to create fear. To me it is laughable that the majority needs a group to ‘protect’ them. Just like folks who keep talking about how Christians are under ‘attack’ here.
But the history of the subcontinent is long, bloody, and complicated. The only way forward, to me, is to have successive governments actually do a better job of due process and civil law enforcement, with education as it’s primary long term medicine. If people keep deviating from the law when they feel like it, and it’s poorly enforced, then how does anyone respect the law. It becomes way too easy for those fears to be abused by men of insidious intentions. That is the struggle in all republics and India will continue to struggle, but hopefully improve over time with greater awareness and education. Modi shouldn’t be in power, nor should a whole host of desi politicians ranging from corruption to murder, to mass murder.
Following up on my earlier postings:
Often times politicians listen more to the people than to the opposite party politicians. So Vajpayee/Advani & co (the national leadership of BJP) will ignore all statements from opposite party politicians. They may even ignore press articles saying the press is biased. But if they receive 1 million letters from common people all over country, some even saying that they are in general BJP supporters but can not condone this; that would shake them from their slumber and make them realize standing behind mass murderers is not good for their ambitions/careers.
This has to happen and we can start right from this blog and spread the word all over.
Its interesting that the Hinduvta crowd is more upset at Pravin for making generalizations than at Modi for his role in the riots.
The Gujarati pogrom was craven and criminal – its a blot on India, and Modi shouldn’t be in power. Pravin’s witch-hunting was just plain silly. One has nothing to do with the other. As someone who gets terribly upset when generalizations are foisted on moderate Muslims, even though you are a self-declared “apostate,” I would think you’d be empathetic enough to see the same thing here? Or should we just burn the place down?
No s**t Sherlocks. I never said this was a scientific study on Guajrati Hindus.
When I meet Gujarati people from different walks of life(it is not that hard living in the US) and read different sources on the internet related to the same topic, all admittedly small sample sizes, but varied enough, I think I can make a generalization on that group if they all, without exception, toe the same line( admittedly to various degrees). It doesn’t mean that there are no Gujaratis with decent positions on this issue just because I did not come across them. But the randomness of my small sample tells me that they probably aren’t in big enough numbers for me to come across one of them randomly. This is why I wanted to see if anyone would talk a different line on this over here. This could probably happen in another state, but that is not the topic. My generalization will not change your fate. It will not put you in jail. I think the burden of proof to make a generalization is less than condoning killing of another community or putting out an academic case study. It doesn’t mean Muslims are off the hook or that the BJP is a worse party than the Congress when it comes to state sanctioned killings. It does not mean India is worse than other countries. Very few are saying that elecition of Modi is automatic sanctioning of the killings. You know we are referring to support deeper than that. It is not just about Modi.
Wasn’t the BJP in power at the central when the riots occurred?
Yes, till 2004, and then Central Government changed to Congress. Even people who are quite anti-BJP (personally, I am not pro-BJP) have never charged Vajpayee of collusion. Khushwant Singh (a sort of moral watch dog of India) and John Hanford (US ambassador at large) went to on the record Center had no role in 2002 Godhra riots, and Vajpayee was quite disturbed.
I started reading a lot on Godhra riots after our Sepia Mutiny interaction with Rakesh Sharma in 2006, and I even brought his movie “Final Solution”. It is very disturbing, and painful.
They have been couple of commissions, CBI inquiries initiated by the Center that have really come to naught that stand muster in a legal system re: Modi. As I said, he could be guilty as hell, but they have to be tangible proofs that can stand legal test. They have been some controversies about cell phone records that trace to police officers that were in his staff.
A simple example is Best Bakery Case:
Teesta Setalvad lives in India, and is she is doing much beyond just leaving comments. Why Zaheera Sheikh kept changing her testimony is open to discussion. Same, the tape in this post has no legal standing….could be true, could be bragging, could be partly true, partly false.
It gets so complicated…….it comes with the territory a billion people country.
I started reading a lot on Godhra riots after our Sepia Mutiny interaction with Rakesh Sharma in 2006, and I even brought his movie “Final Solution”. It is very disturbing, and painful.
Kush: I got to see the movie as well. Thanks for the recommendation.
I believe Parzania also deals with Gujarat riots.
Parzania is a fictional movie based on a true story. Final Solution is a documentary with lots of interviews and facts. If you are going to watch just one, watch Final Solution.
Ardy, Not drawing comparisons, only getting attention to another movie in addition to what Kush recommended. Will try and see if I can order final solution online.
I don’t think generalizing that every Gujarati is culpable is fair at all. However, generalizing that there is something wrong within the fabric of the Hindu Gujarati community living in Gujarat may not be too sweeping a generalization. When we are interacting with individuals, this generalization should not come up at all, I know a lot of wonderful Gujaratis who are as disturbed by what happened as anyone else. However, when we try to find the causes and figure out what can we do to change things, we will have to look at the community as a whole because it revoted for someone like Modi who allowed what he did (if not more) to happen. And not just the Gujarati community, we need to examine what caused us Indians to behave the way we did/do as a whole – you will find apologists for Gujarat from every part of India and this is India’s shame, not just Gujarat’s.
Brown – sorry, my previous statement did not come across the right way.
Ardy,
No need to apologize, I think comes with the online interaction territory, I am sure none of us will be half as jumpy if we all got together in a room;)
Amit in #70. If you do some digging, you will find that the rates of growth of economic and educational indices are the lowest for the Muslims. It is often asserted that this is solely because of Islam and the Muslim society mores. I beg to differ, the nature of Islam may have some influence but I think the muslim population in India post partition started poor and there has been a lot of Government apathy. There is also some inherent discrimination in society. Thus I think it is a combination of factors. Thus while we had affirmative action for poor discriminated backward classes, we did not have anything for the equally poor Muslims. Now, I don’t support affirmative action the way it is practiced in India anyways, and thus I am not advocating affirmative action for Muslims. I believe it should be based on financial status but thats a digression and a lot more complicated.
What I would like to see is the Govt improve the quality of education in public schools, and open more schools in predominantly Muslim areas. The state (and also the NGO sector) needs to become a lot more proactive in promoting education among Muslims. I really doubt that if you give them the option of studying at a good public school after which they can get good job or go to college or something, they would opt for a pure religion education at a madrassa. And even if they did, it is in our own interest as Indians to at least try this. They will impart religious education but not solely so. And with education will come all the benefits – less fundamentalism, addition to the country’s productivity and growth and peace. Of course, I make it simplistic, it’s a lot easier said than done, but I do believe that this would be the right approach.
As for tackling the emasculation feelings in the religious Hindu right who cites invasions hundreds of years back to justify murders, that would have to happen concurrently.
Ahmed is right Amardeep in getting emotional. The fact any human being who is worth being called a huma being will get emotional on such things. This is a genocide carried out by commnal people and they have to account for their crimes against women who were raped, unborn children who were killed before they were born,elderly who were enjoying their life after having spent their life trying to get the country a point of global recognition etc. These people ought to pay for their crimes. The country’s set up should be forced to make these people account for their crimes.
It is sad that these things happen again and again but no one has been accounted for these types of crimes since independence.
As for Godhra train burning, time and again it has been proven scientifically that the fire statrted from inside the train and not from outside as has been propagated
So getting emotional is normal and I think people who feel injustice has been done should group to gather to campaign for justice.
From what I read, wasnt there stuff thrown at the train? Do you have any link for the scientific proof part? From what I read, the survivors in the train felt they were in danger. Now the mob probably did not intend to cause fires. Who knows. I find it highly coincidental that an accidental fire takes place the same time as a heated interaction between a mob and a bunch of passengers.
Totally correct..also time and again it has been proven scientifically..(of course no need to give a citation!) that all the hindus who died were involved in the controversy. They doused gasoline on themselves, their wives and kids and put the train on fire. How tough is it to belive that anyways!
I am highly educated, a non Gujarati and I support Modi/VHP/BJP and the Bajrang dal. That does not mean i support the actions of a few criminal minds.
I wonder if people realize the jewish holocaust by the Nazis had the tacit approval of the then Pope. But neither the pope, nor the catholic church seem to be tainted by the genocide of over 6 million innocent jews.
189:
And Hitler talked to the Pope and the Pope told him that you have until middle of 1945 to kill as many and then the kelling stopped.
This piece came out in the Hindustan Times in 2002 regarding Godhra and the subsequent riots
I felt it was even-handed and we gain more insights when we compare it with the tehelka report.
Separate fact from fiction http://www.fisiusa.org/fisi_News_items/Godhra/godhra055.htm
A government committee did find that the fire in the train was probably caused by something inside the train carriage itself — the Bannerjee Comittee Report. I believe (and I haven’t checked this) the findings were overturned by the Gujarat high court, and suppressed. But there were still reports about it in the news — google it.
Obviously given the involvement of numerous government officials in the riots, the fact that the Gujarat high court did not want this report released does not mean the report itself did not have some validity.
Lets assume that the killing of the people inside the train was planned. This is a despicable act, and those involved must be brought to books, as being done at other places.
Now how does that justify the ruling elements of the Gujarat government to give a free hand to killers (by not just looking the other way but much more) to kill random Muslims, who are in no way connected to the act on the train.
(Pravin has already said more or less the same thing.)
Chitta
No one has justified the Gujarat riots. Read my early comments _ I have condemned it.
By I do question the selective condemnation and media highlights. Gujarat riots receive all attention. But Kashmiri Pandit reguess which is a tragedy 100 times worse receives scant attention.
Why? Just because we care for Muslim lives and hindu lives are unimportant. That is messages being sent.
A government committee did find that the fire in the train was probably caused by something inside the train carriage itself — the Bannerjee Comittee Report. I believe (and I haven’t checked this) the findings were overturned by the Gujarat high court, and suppressed. But there were still reports about it in the news — google it. Obviously given the involvement of numerous government officials in the riots, the fact that the Gujarat high court did not want this report released does not mean the report itself did not have some validity.
Amardeep,
You are missing a huge point: Banerjee Committee Report was made void by Gujarat High Court on a technicality. In India (Commission Act of 1952), you cannot do simultaneous commission-like inquiries for the same event, one by the State, and another by the Center at the same time. Banerjee Report was instituted by the Central Government in 2004. I am not doing any critique for or against the Banerjee Report. There is both sides to the coin – it hurt Gujarat Government, but also it was a one person commission by Laloo Prasad Yadav, then railway minister. It is partisan politics on both sides. There was no scientific inquiry as one commenter claimed.
Re: Banerjee Report claims that fire was accidental. However, all this means that the confrontation between the mob and kar sevaks when the train was stopped, that the fire origin’s are probably an accident, not pre-mediated. That is a conjecture but again, it is very weak, as fire spread in two specific train compartments, and the train was not moving.
Lets assume that there is less coverage of Kahsmir pandit’s plight.
The difference between the two is:
A government is supposed to protect its citizens not select a class of them and be complicit in murdering them.
A govt that fails to protect its citizens should be condemned and thrown out of government; a government that kills its innocent citizens is of a different class and Tehelka expose points to such a state government. They deserve more than condemnation! They should be tried for “crimes against humanity.”
By the way this is not just about 2002 and Gujarat. The politicians and government machinery involved in the 1984 pogroms deserve the same fate. (See the movie Amu. Its probably discussed in this forum earlier.)
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Taking on your analogy of Kashmir:
GOI has stationed huge contingents of army in J & K. Should it do the same in Gujarat? May be it should!
Amardeep,
Banerjee report was very limited in scale – It was a railway related inquiry by Laloo prior to Bihar election in 2005.
Laloo’s RJD, and BJP are not friends.
Ardy, I have read a review of the Sachar report [link1, link2] that sheds a light on the socio-economic status of Indian Muslims. I agree with you that education is needed, and also aware that there’s more than one factor (Muslim attitude towards modern education) at play. BJP was in power at the center from 1998-2004. So, don’t you think that some/much responsibility of the present condition of Indian Muslims as outlined in Sachar report rests with the previous “secular” governments, that conveniently provided lip-service (and treated the Muslims as vote-banks) while doing little-to-nothing for their progress? And that’s what gets glossed over in all the ideological finger-pointing.
I’m all for more education, and for the NGOs and governments helping in any way they can, but the best way to impart education is on the socio-economic basis and not religion (or caste). Two reasons. 1 – It will benefit everyone – including poor Muslims – and I believe that’s the best approach in a secular democracy. 2 -It will mitigate the vote-bank politics that depends on religion and/or caste identity.
I hope so, but as I mentioned in my original comment, education is no guarantee that a person won’t fall into the clutches of ideological/religious extremism.
I think the fact that a fire was intentional or not is besides the point because there is a mob outside the train. The mob created the circumstances for the “accident” even if death by fire itself was not intentional. Besides, I really object to a one man report by a retired judge done in very political circumstances as “scientific”. I do not see any one definitive report on this incident. We got one report competing against another. I don’t trust either in their totality.
And what makes you think I have no issues with the non right wing parties in India? If anything, I already say in #64 that the current political situation in India is said. If anything, the pandering that the Congress and it’s kinds have indulged in has made the situation in the desh so much worse and I despise them every bit for that.
No it does not, there is enough talk blaming secularism, so much so that the right wing parties use it as a weapon and paint a picture that secularism (of the true kind which I truly believe in) itself is a bad thing instead of the pandering which is passed of as secularism. But there is a big difference between a party playing vote bank politics and a party being completely complicit through inaction (if not direct action) in murdering of innocent people. The latter arouses a lot more anger and shame, it is a lot more despicable (though the former is not a great thing either) and thus you hear so much more the BJPs actions (or shall we say inactions for PC purposes, innocent till proven guilty)
I think I have already said that, socio-economics is the way to go for the uniform code of affirmative action. But you have to keep in mind, that while affirmative action on the basis of religion is not the way to go, when a populace of a certain religion as a whole is backward, you can improve their condition under the name of socio-economics or you can improve it under ‘educating a community’ or any other name you like, it’s the results that matter. Your policy would be universal, but looking within the community will be your start to look where you should look to tackle these problems.