“…given up hiding and started to fight”

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October 31, 1984

“Mummy, Daddy can I dress up for Halloween this year?”

“No.  You are not allowed to participate in this ritual begging for candy.”

“Daddy, I meant for school…we’re supposed to…”

He eyed me suspiciously.  “I thought fifth grade would mean the end of such nonsense, but if you are supposed to…what do you need to wear”

I had thought about this.  Based on what the popular girls were last year, I decided…“I want to be a cheerleader!”

“Absolutely not.  Those skirts are indecent.”

“Caroline Auntie was a cheerleader!”

“In college.  When you’re in college, I’ll forbid you then, too.”

Nine-year old me promptly burst in to tears.  Later, my mother came to my room and helped me match a v-neck sweater from my old Catholic school uniform with a pleated skirt I usually wore to church—i.e. one which went to the middle of my knee.  She unpacked a box in my closet and wordlessly handed me my toy pom-poms.  My six-year old sister glared at her indignantly, so Mom rolled her eyes and did the same for her.  I was so excited.  Finally, a “cool” costume, one which didn’t involve an uncomfortable, weird-looking plastic mask to secure with an elastic band, from a pre-packaged ensemble.  I went to sleep feeling giddy.

The next morning, for the first time ever, I was tardy for school.  I don’t remember why, but I was.  When I walked in to class just before recess, everyone froze and stared at me.  The hopeful smile on my face dissolved; this year, the popular girls were all babies in cutesy pajamas with pacifiers around their necks.  I thought the weirdness in the air was due to my lame costume, but within a few minutes I discovered it was caused by something else entirely. 

The moment the bell rang, my desk was surrounded.  This couldn’t be good.  Was I going to get locked in a closet or a bathroom again? 

“Why are you here?”
“Yeah, we thought you weren’t coming.”
“Shouldn’t you be at home crying?”
“Mrs.  Doyle said you wouldn’t come in today.”

The questions assaulted me one after the other.  I was baffled. 

"Why…would…Mrs. Doyle say that?” I stammered.

“DUH, because Gandhi’s daughter got killed.”
“Isn’t she like your queen or something?  Or a Hindu God?”
“No you buttheads, she’s like the president of her country.”

At the end of the last sentence, the boy speaking gestured towards me.  When did they get so enlightened?  Last week, they asked if I was Cherokee and said “How” whenever I walked by, or pantomimed yowling war cries with their hands and mouth.

“She’s not the president of my country.  I’m…I’m from this country.  My president is Ronald Reagan.”

They got impatient and vaguely hostile.

“No, you’re Indian.  Mrs. Doyle said you were in mourning.”
“Did you not like her or something, is that why you don’t care?”
“I heard they dip her in milk before they burn her up.”
“Duh…that’s because they worship cows.”

I put my head down on my desk, as if we were playing “heads up, seven up”.   

“See?  She’s crying now…she is Indian.”

And with that they walked off, to do whatever it was that popular fifth-graders did.

::

Spring 1987.

I was sitting by myself (as usual…it’s always awesome to transfer to a K-8 school in the seventh grade, when no one is interested in making new friends with some outsider), reading something from the “The Babysitters Club”, pretending I was Mary Anne Spier.

“Hey ugly girl…”

I looked up to see a tall 8th grader whom every girl was crushing on…he was standing with his best friend, who elbowed him and muttered, “ask her!”

“Weren’t you supposed to be aborted?

I was horrified and confused.  Horrified because these people never talked to me, confused because…

“You know, since you’re like…a Hindu and we just learned that they only like to have sons.  So we were wondering if your parents wished they had aborted you. You should ask.”

The sidekick started guffawing and both of them ran off.  I sat there, my book still page-down in my lap, unable to read for the rest of recess.  I wished I could go home.

Four hours later…

“Where is your sister?  What is she up to?  I haven’t heard any noise.”

“I dunno…reading the dictionary or something nerdy”. 

I realized my father was headed to the dining room, which is where he left the huge, so-heavy-I-couldn’t-lift-it Webster’s dictionary open for me, so he wouldn’t have to constantly retrieve it from the shelf.  I slapped half the book over, to obscure what I had been looking at…

“What are you doing?  Why did you just do that?  What are you hiding?”

“Um, nothing.”

I tried to slip my finger out from the page I was trying to bookmark, but he was too quick.  The pages flipped back to “A”.

“ABORTION?  You are looking at ABORTION?  Oh my God, why did I sacrifice and struggle and come to this country, so my 12-year old daughter could be impregnated?  Were you raped?  Did someone do something to you? WHY ARE YOU LOOKING AT THAT WORD!”

I actually didn’t know what “raped” meant, either.  My parents hadn’t explained anything like that to me yet.  I was still playing with Barbie and sleeping with my stuffed Persian cat; they saw no need.  I made a mental note to look up “rape”.

My mother came running, “What is this?”

“She is looking at ABORTION!”

“Why?”

“Was I supposed to be aborted?”

My parents faces fell slack from astonishment.

My Mother looked at my Father, then me.  “Why…would…you…ask…such a thing?”

“Some kids at school asked me to ask you if you wished you had aborted me.  I didn’t know what that meant…”

My Father walked away.  My Mother came up to me, looked me in the eye and said, “No.  We did not wish that.  Your Father was very excited, in fact, he always said he hoped you would turn out to be a girl and he was so happy you did.”

My Mother seemed sad.  “You don’t like your new school, do you?”

I shook my head, no.

::

Fall 1989.

“Class, today we are going to do something a bit different—we’re going to look at Catholicism’s impact on the world.”

I tried not to smirk as I recalled my Father’s rants about how Catholicism destroyed things and was rather evil.   

“We’re going to start with India, which is where Anna is from!”

Uh…

“One of the most visible Catholics in the world has chosen India, to serve.  Mother Theresa uses her faith to care for the filthy, the neglected, the unfortunate…”

Oh, sweet Jesus.

“…let’s start our discussion by asking our Indian student more!”

“Um, I’m American.”

“Yes, dear.  But you’re Indian.  What’s India like?”

“I’m just saying, I was born here, so I don’t really know—“

“Now, let’s not fib…I now for a fact you just came back from your country.”

“Well…um…yes, but it’s my parents’ country…no, wait, even they are American citizens.” 

The nun was getting impatient. “May I remind you that discussion counts for your participation grade?  Now would you like to add something constructive to this conversation?”

“Uh…sure.  Well, I did just get back from India.  I had not visited it since I was five, so I learned a lot.”  The nun nodded, with an encouraging smile.

“And tell us about the poverty you saw, the contrasts with America.”

“I…didn’t see poverty really…”

“Calcutta is very impoverished!  How is that possible?”

“I went to Kerala.  I’ve never been to Calcutta.  I’m from South India.  I went to where my parents are from and visited their families.  And Kerala is lush and green and so pretty.  The people are all really smart and the museum I went to—“

“How far is Careluh from Calcutta?”

“It’s really far.”

“So far that you didn’t see beggars?”

“I saw a few…”

“JUST a few?”

“No more than I see when I visit San Francisco.”

“That’s it young lady.  I will not tolerate your smart-aleck behavior.  To the principal’s office you will go and you’ll have detention, later.”

“But I didn’t…”

“Would you like me to double your punishment?”

I nodded miserably and walked out, reaching in to my backpack for my headphones.  Reel Life’s “Send Me an Angel” accompanied me as I dawdled on my way to the office. 

::

I thought of all of those moments, yesterday.  I’ll get to why in a mere moment. 

Besides my younger sibling, I was the only Indian kid at all of my schools except for the last one I cited. Obviously, my little sister did not accompany me to high school, but there was one other Indian girl there. Unfortunately, she wanted nothing to do with  me, because she couldn’t relate to me; she told me I wasn’t Indian enough, that I was white-washed. 

I was South Indian and Christian, I didn’t do garba or understand what she was talking about when she asked me about whether I preferred Salwars to lenghas–in fact, I didn’t even know what a lengha was…just like I was clueless about which Bollywood actor I should have a crush on. Once she realized that I had no experience with such things, she decided she had no use for me.  We didn’t speak, despite sitting next to each other, in home room.

This is now a well-known tale, this trial-by-ignorance which older 1.5/second gens went through.  I am amazed and relieved when I understand that things will never be that brutal for generation 3, not in this world where the internet sates curiosity while dissolving international borders and knitting us all together via the web. 

India is no longer so weird or foreign; today, people don’t eat monkey brains on the big screen. The little ABDs I’ve met recently who are nine, 12 and 14 are informed, empowered, righteous and sassy.  Once upon a time, if you had told me that girls in this country would wear lenghas and saris to their Junior Prom or in their Senior portrait, I would have thought you were a bad comedian.  I would have and did wear Gunne Sax, to both, way back in the early 90s.

::

I often say that I didn’t become a desi until my final year of college, which is when the ISA was allowed back on campus; nothing like “India Night” to give you a concentrated dose of culture. By the time I commenced my second semester of graduate school, in 2000, I had crossed over in to what felt like another realm—for the first time, the majority of my friends were brown. That was life-altering for a girl who lived through the three childhood situations I started this post with. The more people I met from abroad, the more I experienced, and the more I changed.

I had taken plenty of South Asian studies classes as an undergrad, but going to a hyper-International school like GW was like getting the practical experience to complement years of theory. Now, I have a rich, self-defined relationship with the subcontinent, a relationship which I’m so immersed in, it confuses and vaguely irritates my parent. She shakes her head when she catches me reading “Learn Malayalam in 30 days” or when she overhears me interrogating my cherished, fobulous friends about everything I don’t know (which is obviously a LOT).

The end result of all this is that though I’m not from India, now, I am of it. I love it, but not blindly. I celebrate it, but I don’t do so because of inherited jingoism. India is like a family member; I will bitch about it and worry and criticize…but heaven help someone else who attempts to do so in my presence. I know I have annoyed and even enraged some of you with some of my posts; some of you have accused me of being anti-India, when that is the furthest thing from reality. “I love my India”, I’ve written cheekily a few times at the Mutiny. Once, one of you pushed back; “What does that even mean? How is it YOURS?”

It’s mine because it just is, because I want it to be and also, because for my entire childhood, I felt like I was being thrown in to a deep well by my classmates, in an extreme act of othering. My sole company? No, not my Baby-sitters Club or Cheerleaders books—it was my ancestral country, which had been roughed up along side of me, before being tossed in the pit after me.

Once, when I couldn’t take the torment meted out to me, I burst in to tears in front of my Father and told him that I hated my uber-competitive, ultra-bitchy high school, where uniforms which were meant to equalize were an ineffective joke played on girls who didn’t have Dooney and Bourke backpacks, Gucci purses or polo players on their shirts and socks. I wailed that I was miserable, that I hated sticking out like the stench of patchouli in a room full of Chanel, that I didn’t fit in anywhere, especially with thick, long hair which reached the backs of my knees. “Where am I supposed to go? Where will people be nice to me?”

For once, instead of dismissing me or mocking me, he looked lost in thought, before he murmured, “India”.

Later that summer, we visited Ooty, another boarding school I can’t remember and two private high schools, one in Kottayam, the other in Cochin. Though I had hated India the first week I was there, after being terrorized by insects which looked like they had been imported from my nightmares, finding myself mired in a decades-old family feud and realizing, to my hostile resentment, that no, Indian girls did NOT have hair so long that they could sit on it, that I was the only naïve moron who lived up to that now passé ideal…I eventually calmed down.

Two weeks in to our two-month long trip, I was fluent again in my first language, Malayalam, and after my first month in Kerala, whatever resistance I felt to this strange new reality melted. I felt a peace I had never known before, because for the first time in my life, everyone looked like me, worshipped where I did and ate what I ate. I was enchanted and fine with staying; I daydreamed about waving to my father and sister at the airport in Madras, before being whisked back to Kerala by either my Dad’s elder brother or his beloved best friend.

My father realized that he couldn’t bear to leave me on the other side of the world, and that was the end of that. I returned to the U.S., to nuns who loathed non-Catholic, uncooperative me, to girls who yanked open my cardigan so that they could exclaim, “OMG, she’s still poor!” when they saw no logo prancing across my breast, to once again being exiled and alone. Daddy was troubled. Had he been selfish? “You know, you can always go to India. In a way, it will always be your home. If you are fed up…you could go back. You have that option. You are not rootless. I know you were happy, there…”

So, to me, India has always been synonymous with sanctuary. A naïve sentiment, I know, but also, a necessary fiction; it helped me survive.

How could I disparage my refuge, my roots? And could I stand by idly, when, on a popular blog, India was repeatedly tarnished?

::

Jezebel is part of Gawker’s online empire. Its tagline is Celebrity, Sex, Fashion. Without the airbrushing. When I stumbled upon it, it was love at first browse. It was smart, defiant and allergic to bullshit. It was fierce. For the first time, in many, many years, I felt like I had found the successor to Sassy, the legendary teen magazine which saved my sanity in a “YM” world. And who were these commenters?! These women who were righteous, bawdy, witty and often, hilarious? This was like the best of my sorority years, with none of the annoying idocratic declarations or pesky monthly dues. After weeks of lurking, I wanted to dive in this rollicking online hot tub…but there was one catch: you had to audition to comment!

Audition to become a commenter. To become a registered commenter on this site, you first need to be approved by our team. We’re looking for comments that are interesting, substantial or highly amusing. So write a comment, polish up your words and choose a username and password below. Your comment will only appear once (or if) you’re approved. Want to know more? Consult the Comment FAQ. [Jezebel]

I submitted my thoughts and then spent an anxious day or so wondering if I’d be deemed worthy; a few hours in to the weirdness, I realized exactly what it reminded me of—the end of sorority rush, when you make your choice and then sleeplessly wait for a bid. When my comment finally appeared on the site, I cackled triumphantly. YES! I was allowed in! I was a part of the coolest clique ever, the anti-clique, which called out anyone and everything. This was AWESOME.

Except…I started to see references to India, in their news roundups and then comments, which would inevitably refer back to the brown element of the post…and unlike the rest of the Jezebel experience…they were less than…fair. Sometimes, they were downright ignorant. Worse still, the female bloggers whom I had been crushing on pretty heavily seemed to not get it; sometimes, it seemed as if they were encouraging the ick. I have to tell you, it really did feel like being a teen all over again, right down to the confusion, the angst and the anticipation of exile.

Does that seem melodramatic ? It’s not, to me. I spend all my time here, at SM. Like a new, stay-at-home mother who is starved for “grown-up” conversation, i.e. that which does not involve poo or puking, I wanted more (and please, no stupid conflation of poo/puke/infancy with SM…sometimes, a cigar is just a cigar and a metaphor is, too.) Unfortunately, my source for what I had craved seemed less than welcoming.

And here’s where it gets all afterschool special; would I quietly observe the unfair digs at my “sanctuary” and remain mute, to protect my coveted place in that Jezebel-space? Or would I do what I was aching to—speak my mind, at the risk of alienating the popular and powerful? Yeah, you know how this turns out…

Indian actress Shilpa Shetty has been arrested at the Mumbai, India airport. Her crime? Obscenity. The act? Being the recipient of that overly demonstrative kidd on the cheek from Richard Gere. [Daily Mail] 12:45 PM ON THU SEP 27 2007 BY JENNIFER. 1,428 views
BY WARMAIDEN AT 09/27/07 12:58 PM This takes ‘blaming the victim’ to a whole ‘nother level. yay, India! (PS – Shouldn’t they be hanging those guys who drugged and raped the Japanese touristas?)
BY LOVESTOSMILE AT 09/27/07 01:03 PM My lord. I’m Indian and this is absolutely embarassing.
BY LOVESTOSMILE AT 09/27/07 01:11 PM As someone who’s Indian, I can say with all confidence that this is a matter of national shame.
BY ANDALUCíA AT 09/27/07 01:11 PM @LovesToSmile: I’m American. We won the Embarrassment Sweepstakes years ago.
BY RAINBOWBRITE AT 09/27/07 01:12 PM You’d think India would be trying to look a little more progressive these days. That “India at 60” campaign is everywhere here in NY, but stories like this one don’t really help their tourism…
BY SARAHINSASK AT 09/27/07 01:13 PM What a disgusting, filthy crime. Right? Right? Clearly India has no heinous criminal at large than Shilpa Shetty.
BY AHWANNABE AT 09/27/07 01:14 PM lovely country we’re outsourcing work to.
BY HABIBI AT 09/27/07 01:16 PM Jennifer, fix the typo – India is spelled “India” and not “Indnia”. Since when is getting a kiss on the cheek a crime? The Indian government should be embarrassed by this.
BY ANNOYINGFEMALELEADVOICEOVER AT 09/27/07 01:16 PM She was let go as soon as the cops realized the charges had been turned over months ago. Not that this justifies the act, but for a heads up.
BY CHOCOLATECOFFEEBEANS AT 09/27/07 01:30 PMIt is things like this that make me completelly terrified to travel to the Middle East at all, even though I consider myself relatively well-travelled. This combined with stories of getting hands cut off for stealing (not that I would steal) or the weird rules about things like alcohol and women’s dress. I just know it would take me approximately 15 minutes before I broke a law or offended someone. No thanks.

BY SUITABLEGIRL AT 09/27/07 02:32 PM @ahwannabe: Yes, let’s bring outsourcing in to this, it’s obviously germane. One tiny reminder: we should also bring it up when Canada or Ireland or every other country we outsource to gets brought up in any context whatsoever– that way we’re consistent.

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She wasn’t arrested, she was detained by some idiot on a power trip (not rare in India). This is not a matter of national shame, not when there are a million worse problems in the subcontinent. Is it stupid? Yes. Should this have happened? No. But let’s not go overboard, even though it is *so* fun and satisfying to snark at those unenlightened, job-stealing misogynists.

BY SUITABLEGIRL AT 09/27/07 02:34 PM @CHOCOLATECOFFEEBEANS: Right, except India is not in the Middle East. And as flawed as it is, its hassles are a far cry from Saudi Arabia, which is what you’re comparing it to.
BY SPECTATERTOT AT 09/27/07 02:40 PM @LovesToSmile: ditto (on being indian and finding this embarassing)
BY CHOCOLATECOFFEEBEANS AT 09/27/07 03:32 PM Ya know, I realized what I had said right after I posted it. I do realize India is not the “Middle East” but as has been mentioned, it is the crazy mix of government and religion that is a common thread to a lot of these countries and I would just not feel comfortable, and would be terrified of doing something wrong.
BY NARYMARY AT 09/27/07 04:10 PM This is really sad. I hope nothing awful happens to her!
BY NIGERIENNE AT 09/27/07 04:34 PM Way to set India back more than the people of Dell.

BY AHWANNABE AT 09/27/07 05:18 PM @Suitablegirl: AFAIK, Canada and Ireland have human rights laws that are at least somewhat similar to the ones we have in the good ole USA, so if the fat cats want to oursource there because it’s cheaper, can’t argue with that.

What I take offense to is when our fat cats outsource jobs to countries where this kind of abuse is considered okay, when we have LAWS in place to prevent it from happening here. That is the height of hypocrisy, and yes I will continue to bring up the subject of outsourcing until I’m blue in the face, or people get a clue.

BY SFIKUS AT 09/27/07 06:41 PM @Suitablegirl: “She wasn’t arrested, she was detained by some idiot on a power trip (not rare in India). This is not a matter of national shame, not when there are a million worse problems in the subcontinent.”

– Were she not Shilpa Shetty, and considered a bit of a national treasure, she could have faced a whole trove of other pleasures reserved for women in India – acid, stoning, etc. Yes, after all the sabre rattling, she was let off easily, but I think much of her reported reaction was compounded by her knowledge of what _could_ have happened…

BY SUITABLEGIRL AT 01:40 AM

@narymary: I think she’ll be okay.

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@sfikus: Were she not Shilpa Shetty, Richard Gere wouldn’t have kissed her…I think it’s a bit much to call her a national treasure, but hey, I also think it’s a bit much to paint this dire, sensational picture of a country which has issues– just like other countries. The horror is everywhere, India doesn’t have a monopoly on it– to me, misogyny is global.

I’m bemused that I am now in this bizarre situation where I stick up for a country I normally criticize righteously.

Want to call India out on something? How about gender-selective abortions, that I’ll agree is an India-specific problem. But acid? Double standards about women who are public figures/tabloids rushing to fan flames? Pot, kettle. As for stoning, again, that’s more of a Taliban penalty for adultery, not an “Indian” one; my concern throughout this thread has been exactly that sort of conflation. India is by no means perfect– but it doesn’t deserve to be painted by such a broad, ugly brush.

“a whole trove of other pleasures reserved for women in India – acid, stoning, etc.”

I was drawn to this site because I loved the fierce women who were creative, free-thinkers…but I’m chagrined to see less thinking and more reacting here. India is a subcontinent, with an amazing range of cultures, traditions, people…my parents came from a state with a matrilineal tradition, but that’s not part of the “India” caricature, so no one knows or wants to acknowledge that. I get sad when I see intelligent, otherwise tolerant women engage in reductionist stereotyping which minimizes and demeans.

Sorry for the extra-long comment. I’m new here, I want to make sure I articulate my position well, because that’s how much I respect this space.

Sigh. My inner teen is currently vaguely miserable. I thought I had discovered this amazing group of girls to hang out with, every day (and you know how difficult that is to do after college!), but perhaps I was so desperate to belong, I didn’t consider the totality of what I was coveting. Worst of all, why were the other two brown Jezebels okay with this? Was I wrong to be hurt on behalf of a country I had never even lived in?

That’s what really bothered me– I was the only one who was not echoing the chorus and following the mood; the choice of the other two desis, to toe some stupid line was like NaCl in my wound. Now it REALLY felt like high school. Is this how it is? You have to kowtow to be welcome? Unfortunately for me, I couldn’t do that the first time I was required to, back in 1988. I’m supposed to find it within me to do so NOW, two decades later? Perhaps I’m wrong about my orientation and I’m not a Jezbian after all.

The prospect of that is depressing. As much as I love my sepia baby, it’s nice to get out and do more than mother (and smother). The last time I tried to get in to a sorority, I was surrounded by people who were often clueless and thus, unintentionally hurtful; at least at the DG house they were essentially oblivious, what hurts the most here is that these women are aware, that they know a little something about India. But it’s just like what my Mom always says (especially after meeting a patient who has become “empowered” with drug or other info via WebMD, who is helpfully clutching a printout of such): a little bit of knowledge can be very dangerous. For the first time, ever, I wonder if it’s better to be ignorant about some things.

445 thoughts on ““…given up hiding and started to fight””

  1. Both camille and hmf are correct about “white” identity being linked to inequalities of power, which then had to be justified. this is at least very true in the context of europeans in india. as i said in an earlier post:

    for example, before the political ascendancy of the east india company in india, there are several instances of the mughals putting europeans to death for various ‘crimes’. some complained, but since the balance of power was more or less equal in the seventeenth and early eighteenth centuries, even british and dutch high officials (of the various east india companies)agreed with the mughals. the basic reason was that they were more or less equal in power. this would have been unthinkable after the mid eighteenth century when the british slowly began to take over india.

  2. There was no white identity in the old old days because they rarely encountered non-whites. Once they started dealing with large numbers of non-whites on a regular basis, white identity started to form.

  3. Once they started dealing with large numbers of non-whites on a regular basis, white identity started to form.

    Erm. thats kinda my point, but it was also coupled with a notion of inherent, biological superiority. The identity that began to form, did so only out of a notion of being superior to those who didn’t fall into that category.

  4. There was no white identity in the old old days because they rarely encountered non-whites. Once they started dealing with large numbers of non-whites on a regular basis, white identity started to form.

    I don’t think it’s that simple, Amitabh. There’s evidence of trade relationships and color-consciousness that predates American racism. I really think the trigger in how race was formed in the U.S. is intrinsically tied to power. In creating a sense of difference, what was more important was justifying that difference as a legitimate means of subjugation. It was entirely at odds with the rhetoric of a new state. It’s pretty hard to justify enslaving people and treating them as animals a well as totally massacring others unless you argue that they are soulless (as the Spanish did re: indigenous people), or unless you argue that an outward indicator makes them non-human. The way this then translated into the U.S. legal system and its social order goes far beyond a simple recognition of skin color or difference.

  5. as you’ll never find the existence of ‘whiteness’ or ‘white identity’

    How is this different from Arab depiction of Africans from the 13th century onwards? They enhanced their conquering “brown” identity at the expense of the subjugated/enslaved “black” identity.

  6. I might have missed this, but I didn’t see anyone mention one very relevant fact regarding whites in this country. Many of the whites in this country didn’t get here till AFTER the civil war and abolition of slavery. In fact, I believe the largest migration from Europe to the US was during the 20s and 30s. It’s oversimplistic to look at a white person and blame their ancestors for racism in the 1800s when there’s a good chance that they weren’t even here at that time.

  7. It’s oversimplistic to look at a white person and blame their ancestors for racism in the 1800s when there’s a good chance that they weren’t even here at that time.

    It’s even more oversimplistic to think that a white person hasn’t benefited from the privileges afforded to all white people (privileges rooted in historical background such as slavery, jim crow, etc..) and the time post-dating abolition, simply because their ancestors weren’t directly involved in the crimes in question.

    The same way a Jamaican or Nigerian or Guinean immigrant can come to the US, and immediately risk getting shot for being armed and dangerous with a wallet, a czech or romanian immigrant can come here and reap benefits from day one.

  8. The same way a Jamaican or Nigerian or Guinean immigrant can come to the US,

    …and benefit from the ultimate “privilege”, the American free market system.

  9. From your own article:

    Even as blacks have surged ahead of whites in Queens, over all they have fallen behind in Manhattan

    bitten by your own snake. Even if this stat was to not take into account the population demographics in Queens, it still doesn’t say anything to state one locality in the entire country where black income slightly exceeds white income, certainly doesn’t make the US the free market panacea you want it to be. Horatio Alger must die.

  10. bitten by your own snake. Even if this stat was to not take into account the population demographics in Queens, it still doesn’t say anything to state one locality in the entire country where black income slightly exceeds white income, certainly doesn’t make the US the free market panacea you want it to be. Horatio Alger must die.

    go beyond the headline. its not about black/white, but about black immigrants who come here and are doing very well. their overrepresentation in queens has resulted in the average black income exceeding whites, even if we include the natives. but since Manhattan doesn’t harbor many immigrant blacks, we don’t see this phenomena. why are they doing so well? the old work ethic, family values, and the spirit of capitalism:

    Mr. Vernon, the lawyer from Jamaica, said: “It’s just that the people who left the Caribbean to come here are self-starters. It only stands to reason they would be more aggressive in pursuing their goals. And that creates a separation.” Andrew A. Beveridge, a Queens College demographer who analyzed results of the Census Bureau’s 2005 American Community Survey, released in August, for The New York Times, said of the trend: “It started in the early 1990’s, and now it’s consolidated. They’re married-couple families living the American dream in southeast Queens.” “When immigrants come here, they’re not accustomed to social programs,” he said, “and when they see opportunities they had no access to — tuition or academic or practical training — they are God-sent, and they use those programs to build themselves and move forward.”

  11. but about black immigrants who come here and are doing very well

    The real test would be to compare them to white immigrants and see how relatively well they are doing.

    but since Manhattan doesn’t harbor many immigrant blacks, we don’t see this phenomena.

    Oh, and this immigration pattern just happens to be this way right, having nothing to do with real estate brokers inherent biases, and legacy property ownership in manhattan?

    the old work ethic, family values, and the spirit of capitalism

    Spoken like a true limbaugh-ite, the mothership would be proud. Completely ignoring the fact that black immigrants do not have the same psychological and institutional barriers faced by their american black counterparts. Your snake bites again:

    “Racism and the lack of opportunity created a big gap and kind of put us at a deeper disadvantage,” said Steven Dennison, an American-born black resident of Springfield Gardens. This suggests that those ever lovable bootstraps arent the only thing preventing everyone from starting their own hedge fund or whatever it is you think is an indicator of success.

  12. Manju, that’s not entirely fair. There is a very biased immigration system that favors elites from third world countries, yes, including Jamaica. I know we could argue about relative disadvantage, but in many parts of htis country immigrants of African-heritage/ancestry are NOT starting on the same level as African Americans.

  13. It amuses me that black people get brought up even though the thread is not about black people, I will say this though the first food stamp I ever saw was from a white family, I lived in the Tacoma,Washington area for a few years and most of the folks that was abusing the welfare system was white. I think this is just me that some of you folks not all should get out and know some black people first, I hear alot of talk about fighting racism but how can you fight racismif you have racist tendencies yourself? Think about it.

  14. Didn’t eminem say that with an uncomfortable looking eddie murphy next to him? “hmf doesn’t care about white people.”

    That joke is rather fitting in this context. Most of the complaints in threads boil down to “I am not being treated like a real American.” If you really want to know what it means not to be treated as a real American, look no further than 8/29 and its aftermath…

  15. Spoken like a true limbaugh-ite, the mothership would be proud.

    limbaugh huh. doesn’t it sound at least a bit lke malocolm to you?

    Completely ignoring the fact that black immigrants do not have the same psychological and institutional barriers faced by their american black counterparts.

    didn’t you just try to argue in #307 that they face the same institutional barriers? As far as psychological ones go, i suppose its possible, but its also possible they’ve been convinced that they don’t have a shot here in the US, since this is the prevailing liberal opinion. thus, low scores on the SATs are blamed on bias, while poor immigrants won’t allow their kids to make that excuse, even on the English part.

    There is a very biased immigration system that favors elites from third world countries

    i thoiught it favors mexican illegals who, i understand, exhibit a similar upward mobility. furthermore, class privilege is not the same as the race one, since class has a large component of merit.

    I hear alot of talk about fighting racism

    you don’t hear that from me doug. i’m not too concerned about fighting racism. we should not beg the white man for acceptance, but rather follow the example of jews, asians, and caribbeans who have, above all else, embraced Americas extraordinary dynamic economy. while racism exists, but is severely tempered by America’s classic liberalism, its free(markets)doms, and individualism, which explains why the hordes of black/brown immigrants flow only one way. unlike more socialistic countries, like burma, america’s bigotry is harder to institutionalize.

  16. Manju I agree with you even though you didn’t say it. I wish more minorities felt that way.

  18. didn’t you just try to argue in #307 that they face the same institutional barriers?

    not institutional as much, rather the overt racism (as I made a reference to amadou diallo)

    doesn’t it sound at least a bit lke malocolm to you?

    not coming from your mouth/keyboard. when Malcolm says it, it’s clear he clearly lays the blame of american racism clearly on the whites. I’ve quoted you the passages before, it seems to not have made a dent. Then again, I could quote the entire autobiography backwards in piglatin and my guess is it wont make too much of a dent.

    we should not beg the white man for acceptance, but rather follow the example of jews, asians, and caribbeans who have, above all else, embraced Americas extraordinary dynamic economy.

    Assuming you acknowledge racisms existence, instead of not begging the white man for acceptance, why not take it a step further and form a Indian/South Asian state, with a separate govt, and economy all to its own, a la Marcus Garvey. You say we shouldn’t beg the white man for acceptance, yet the jews, asians and caribs have done exactly that, by entering and acheiving a certain level of success (that level, in my view correlates with how easily they are accepted as “white”, jews having a similar complexion can do it more easily than say, asians) within their systems.

    can i borrow your bootstraps?

    here, borrow mine.

  19. it’s clear he clearly lays the blame of american racism clearly on the whites

    is that clear? wow, I should really proofread more.

  20. why not take it a step further and form a Indian/South Asian state, with a separate govt, and economy all to its own

    er, hmf, these states exist. and as we watch the horror unfold in burma, we should remember that many of these states shed a form of racist oppression (colonialism) only ot embrace a another brutally oppressive one (socialism).

    You say we shouldn’t beg the white man for acceptance, yet the jews, asians and caribs have done exactly that, by entering and acheiving a certain level of success

    so their entrepreneurship and success doesn’t please you? what exactly then do you want for POC in this country?

    you keep fighting racism, asking whites to change, redistribute their wealth, and give us preferences. i’ll continue to ruthlessly build business without concern for the well being of others. at this point in history, i think we already know which approach offers the true empowerment.

  21. 310 · Manju as we watch the horror unfold in burma, we should remember that many of these states shed a form of racist oppression (colonialism) only to embrace an another brutally oppressive one (socialism).

    All too true!

  22. Reading all this discussion about institutional bias and what not always reminded me of this particular incident. I know this is not exactly related to the discussion, but I think it is somewhat pertinent and sums up my feelings about this whole discussion.. This particular conversation would repeat over and over with my dad.

    Rev.bayes: Dad, I didn’t get the best grades in the class (or something else – i screwed up) .. I don’t know! It’s hard out there – the teacher is out there to screw with us.. It’s unfair – there is insitutional bias(I’m making that part up..)

    Rev.bayes’s dad: Dumbass! Stop complaining and get your lazy ass to work.

    I don’t care whatever happened – whatever was wrong with the system, my dad always told me – “well, tough luck son, you got screwed. You should have played a tighter game.”

    Anybody else have dads like that??

  25. here, borrow mine.

    umm, hmf, i think the visual is just the noi logo of keeping the white man down. why me?

    As far as psychological ones go, i suppose its possible, but its also possible they’ve been convinced that they don’t have a shot here in the US, since this is the prevailing liberal opinion.

    this is total bs. surely, you realize how weak this sounds. if you want to come up with reasons, maybe strawmen like “african american men glorify violence and macho-ness over succeeding educationally or professionally, which is called acting white” might be better. i am sure this is categorized under “suck, african-americans” in d’souza’s book.

  26. this is total bs. surely, you realize how weak this sounds. if you want to come up with reasons, maybe strawmen like “african american men glorify violence and macho-ness over succeeding educationally or professionally, which is called acting white” might be better. i am sure this is categorized under “suck, african-americans” in d’souza’s book.

    i’m just going with hmf’s “psychological barriers” argument in 311. i added qualifiers. take it up with him.

  27. tough loving parents are the ultimate privilege

    Yes. That is absolutely correct. But, I was also making another point. A lot of desi parents don’t spend too much time worrying about the perfection of the system.. i.e. things ought to be like this or that..

    Just go and do your thing. That is the ultimate responsibility.

  28. i’m just going with hmf’s “psychological barriers” argument in 311. i added qualifiers. take it up with him.

    aww, c’mon manju. i am not arguing that they face psychological barriers, i am disputing your claim. the least you could do is to stand by it.

    let me state my position: there might be several endemic, endogenous, cultural issues etc. that might be “keeping af-ams down”, but arguing that racism is not a dominant cause is like treating a patient who comes into a hospital with a spike through his head and complaining of severe pain by seeing if he has a fever. providing isolated examples of af-ams succeeding is not a convincing argument. the statistics, sliced every which way by unbiased scientists, do not lie. dismissing these by calling them liberal hysteria is both intellectually poor and disingenuous. (i don’t know the details about south asian americans or asian americans).

  29. Just go and do your thing. That is the ultimate responsibility.

    i am sure the supremely competitive system in india has at least something to do with it. mollycoddling and excuses will guarantee you a place at the back of the line for a good “professional” seat, and that culture translates to here, even though children in the u.s. generally have a far more forgiving system all around.

  30. er, hmf, these states exist.

    err. I’m talking about within the US, I said a-la Marcus Garvey (who also spoke of return to Africa, if the establishment of separate states weren’t possible here)

    so their entrepreneurship and success doesn’t please you?

    whether it pleases me or not is irrelevant, but it’s a form of ‘begging whites for acceptance’ as you put it, as you’re pursuing success in their system.

    i’ll continue to ruthlessly build business without concern for the well being of others. at this point in history, i think we already know which approach offers the true empowerment.

    Im glad you weren’t around in the 1960s advising Dr. King.

  31. There is a very biased immigration system that favors elites from third world countries
    i thoiught it favors mexican illegals who, i understand, exhibit a similar upward mobility. furthermore, class privilege is not the same as the race one, since class has a large component of merit.

    Were you trying to be inflammatory, or did you actually not know that the immigration system disproportionately benefits elites? Or are you assuming that every “black” immigrant you meet is undocumented? Your class argument is also highly debateable (both in the U.S. context and from an international context), but I don’t have the energy to get into it right now.

    Also, I have no idea how you got to the concept of Burma when discussing AMERICAN racism. If you’re going to talk about Liberia, then maybe we have a more relevant and interesting example. I’m done, have fun talking about the pathology of African American communities and why your immigrant parents are so much more intelligent and that they deserved it. This thread disgusts me.

  32. Also, I have no idea how you got to the concept of Burma when discussing AMERICAN racism.

    standard right wing technique. complete deflection..

    conservative #1 “uh uh you say America has problems.. uh… uh.. Iran Iran”

    conservative #2 ‘no, burma is the new iran”

    conservative #1 “uh burma burma”

  33. but arguing that racism is not a dominant cause

    it is the dominant cause. the legacy of jim crow and slavery is the underlying reason why african american find themselves disenfranchised in america. buy why someone is down and why they are not getting up are 2 differnt questions.

    now how do i get from american racism to burma (or any other country) to answer camille question. first of all, i don’t find american racism unique, similar systems exits throughout the world so i think its important to conflate more and not keep things separate. for example, the plight of american blacks resembles that of indians. both shed themselves of oppressive racist system only to turn around and enslave themselves in another system (socialism and social welfarism). for years, any deviation for this orthodoxy was considered a betrayal (look at the treatment of clarence thomas) and thus we ended up enslaving ourselves to another form of racism. its time to break those shackles too. racism is not the only evil.

  34. whether it pleases me or not is irrelevant, but it’s a form of ‘begging whites for acceptance’ as you put it, as you’re pursuing success in their system.

    well you didn’t answer my question. what do you want POC to do? if, in your opinion, working within the system constitutes “begging whites for acceptance” then i would have to assume your opposed to accepting preferences or welfare, since this is part of the system too. you know my solution. what’s yours?

  35. Were you trying to be inflammatory, or did you actually not know that the immigration system disproportionately benefits elites?

    i don’t know what so inflammatory about cheering the success of illegals, but i’m not as astute as you in perceiving subtle racism. nonetheless, according to Bear Stearns:

    The total number of legalized immigrants entering The United States since 1990 has averaged 962,000 per year. Several credible studies indicate that the number of illegal entries has recently crept up to 3 million per year, triple the authorized figure.

  36. POC will do what they’ve always done (at least the visionary ones), which is combat the system and institutions that’ve held them back. And ‘begging whites for acceptance’ is your phrase, if you didn’t mean it as working within their corporations, their preferred capitalistic system, what did you mean by it? maybe you can clarify?

  37. HMF, I’m still waiting for you to give me something more than that a white girl’s mom might hide her embarassement by saying, “Katie’s a good girl, things just haven’t gone her way.”
    It’s not just her mom, if you go back and read, it’s an entire national consciousness that I’m talking about. It’s exactly what Kanye West was talking about when he said the media shows white people ‘looking for food’ and black people ‘looting’ Secondly, I made no mention of gov’t assistance, in fact, I wouldn’t be surprised if things like welfare were given moreso to blacks.

    So you’re saying that more people will thing the single white mom fell on hard times while the single black mom is a ho who wasn’t conscious or careful? Hmmmmmmmmmmm. Based on what exactly? A television show or two? Statistics done in polls? Based on what? Give me something concrete coz right now this concept is very airy.

  38. And ‘begging whites for acceptance’ is your phrase, if you didn’t mean it as working within their corporations, their preferred capitalistic system, what did you mean by it? maybe you can clarify?

    business relationships are beautiful. they do not create a dependent class and a worker is not a charity case. these relationships are mutually beneficial. so there’s no begging when one works for a corporation, and certainly no begging when one starts a corporation of ones own.

    POC will do what they’ve always done (at least the visionary ones), which is combat the system and institutions that’ve held them back

    i know what your against. what are you for?

  39. if you didn’t mean it as working within their corporations, their preferred capitalistic system,

    Capitalism could not have been successful without the racist(slave) component. Ergo racism is unique and started in the 1600s with white slavers. Is this your contention ?

  40. wow yo lucky i grew up n still in ghetto. only punjabi, tamil, guyanese, somali n cariben black here. only 1 time some jamaican gurl who wuz friend n still is. in gr.1 lyk all indian ppl got lice ma sister told me. but den she wuz lyk she dint no she wuz wrong n stuff. i had 2 go a school outsid of area in gr.5 it wuz weird havn nevr been aroun white ppl n stuff. beside ma junior school a catholic school wer sum white kidz go but still mostly black. n as a kid didnt c stuff thru color. but now i started not many brown n black so i got 2 no most of em. got along w/ white kidz after couple yrz. but didnt get shit lyk u did. in gr.8 sum manz from rexdale 2 started makn curry jkz but it wuz fun n shit. cuz da watermelon n chicken jkz wer der 2. but lyk in rexdale itz lyk dis dependin on area.

    punjabi vs jamican somali can b on eder side. thas in humberwood n humberline wich on east side of rexdale near malton. wer i liv almos evn in guyanese, black n punjabi (tell truth guyanese or tamil sumtimz cant c dif) but lyk jamican n punjabi got lota beef. w/ many ppl h8n on otha side. many jamaican also h8 on somali but many somali have movd 2 otha partz of rexdale lyk jamestown. if ppl no abou rexdale i liv in mount olive. so lyk guyanese r split. sum h8 indian sum roll. but itz nota race war. most sets have brown n black. but 1 ting tha all sets dont got r white ppl. da cops r all white n racism from dem is normal. but lyk i no yall gonna call me illiterate n stuff but i tryna tell yall stuff.

    n also if derz a black history cuz dey wer opressed n enslaved. werz southasian/brown history month? sam shit happen 2 us. but u no black n brown roll 2 getha also.

  41. business relationships are beautiful. they do not create a dependent class and a worker is not a charity case. these relationships are mutually beneficial. so there’s no begging when one works for a corporation, and certainly no begging when one starts a corporation of ones own.

    you are evading the question. what did you mean be “begging whites for acceptance”

    i know what your against. what are you for?

    a two pronged approach. minorities working to succeed in the white old-boys network, while not diminishing the role of racism, it’s current effects. I’m also for whites who are truly dedicated to anti-racism to actually teach their own, instead of piggybacking on people like cosby to diminish their own responsibility.

  42. i don’t know what so inflammatory about cheering the success of illegals, but i’m not as astute as you in perceiving subtle racism. nonetheless, according to Bear Stearns:

    Me neither Manju. It’s very hard to argue against bogus statistics and stupid interpretations. I ain’t sure how HMF and Camille are going to take to this true statistic cited in last Sunday’s New York Times.

    ” the simple fact that young black men commit a disproportionate number of crimes, especially violent crimes, which cannot be attributed to judicial bias, racism or economic hardships. The rate at which blacks commit homicides is seven times that of whites.”

    To infer that Indians are racist because some of them won’t let their daughters date Blacks is cliched, simplistic and ridiculous. And of course there’s no mention ever of the horrendous atrocities perpetrated on Indians by Blacks in Uganda, Kenya, South Africa, and in the Caribbean. The details will shock all and make Jallianwala Bagh massacre look like a walk in today’s Jallianwala Bagh. Add to that the indignities and violence that Indians,mostly cab drivers and convenience store clerks suffer at the hands of Blacks and you might infer what drives some Indians’ perception of Blacks. But no. Here you’ll hear that Indians are to be blamed for all the violence. Then what explains the Black violence against Koreans in LA, against Jews in Brooklyn and lately against the Chinese in Africa?

  44. dont let a few ppl speak for da many. take anti-muslim riotz in gujarat does tha mean all hindus or all gujuz h8 muslims? c wer i goin. lyk ppl say white ppl r weak. whil some r tha mean all r? do all bengaliz eat fish? r all indians hairy? are all punjabiz brave. well yea 😀 lol

  45. also anna dih ppl spec indian evr make fun of u cuz of yer religion? i hurd many ppl sayn christianty da white manz religionz dey dont evn realize many christians r black n brown n yellow as well.

    but wus weird i nevr get it. white ppl used 2 say der chritian rite. but lyk all religonz say humans r human n same regardless of color rite? lyk major religions. chrisitanity, islam, budhism, sikhism na sure abou jewish but how cud dey have segregated n have seperate churches 4 black n brown n stuff

  46. ” the simple fact that young black men commit a disproportionate number of crimes, especially violent crimes, which cannot be attributed to judicial bias, racism or economic hardships. The rate at which blacks commit homicides is seven times that of whites.”

    Umm. those DOJ figures don’t take into account that whites also outnumber blacks, say 10:1 approximately? So the percentage per 100,000 is lower on the white side, however total # of crimes committed by blacks amount to around 24%, secondly, even that figure shouldn’t scare off whites, as they are err, around 5-6 times more likely to be victimized by a white person.

    These are just for homicides: http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/homicide/race.htm

  47. what did you mean be “begging whites for acceptance”

    the goldman sachs model. don’t beg to make partner at anti-semetic morgan, start your own bank. don’t beg racist hollywood to include POC, go to bollywood. don’t beg to get accepted at the exclusive wasp club if they are racist. start your own club. don’t complain that bank lending policies discriminate against you. if they do, then you have a huge opportunity to make some money by starting your own bank. ever hear of untapped/emerging markets or competitve advantage? why reveal to the whole world that there’s a huge untapped market out there when you can exploit it yourself like p diddy. u don’t need a wharton degree to start a gas station, 711, insurance brokerage, or limo service. just hustle.

    i literally just got off the phone w/ a VC who was telling me how he loves to take down monopolies. never before in history has the old boy network been so vulnerable. i mean in america, not cuba. don’t listen to the burmese junta that tells their people that capitalism is the white mans way. sure being an ethnic minority in burma is hard, one has to face real institutional racism. but not here. in the age of globalization, outsourcing, tranformative technologies, and triumphant capitalism, the next century will belong to those who understand this…and i’m quite sure it will not be the old wasp elite.

    i have seen the promised land, hmf. the free market is your friend.

  48. ” the simple fact that young black men commit a disproportionate number of crimes, especially violent crimes, which cannot be attributed to judicial bias, racism or economic hardships. The rate at which blacks commit homicides is seven times that of whites.”
    To infer that Indians are racist because some of them won’t let their daughters date Blacks is cliched, simplistic and ridiculous

    no it’s not – and taken with the statistic you quoted above, it embodies the very concept of racism – judging an individual based on the stereotypes (real or perceived) of others of the same racial group. i wouldn’t call out any desi parent if they didn’t want their child to go out with a black person who is, in fact, a violent criminal – legitimate safety concerns exist. however, to prohibit the same dating pattern based simply on the fact that the potential partner in question belongs to a race that commits a disproprtionately higher number of violent crimes is racist, and ridiculous, even if it is ‘cliched.’

    and even if i agreed with your statement – what of the desi bias against their sons dating black women, to whom this statistic does not apply? it astounds me time and again that desis – who have faced at least some level of prejudice attributed to a bias against their group – never seem to give the benefit of the doubt to other minorities in this country…

  49. the legacy of jim crow and slavery is the underlying reason why african american find themselves disenfranchised in america. buy why someone is down and why they are not getting up are 2 differnt questions.

    so when did racism end? when mlk day was made a federal holiday, or when imus was fired?