October 31, 1984
“Mummy, Daddy can I dress up for Halloween this year?â€
“No. You are not allowed to participate in this ritual begging for candy.â€
“Daddy, I meant for school…we’re supposed to…â€
He eyed me suspiciously. “I thought fifth grade would mean the end of such nonsense, but if you are supposed to…what do you need to wearâ€
I had thought about this. Based on what the popular girls were last year, I decided…“I want to be a cheerleader!â€
“Absolutely not. Those skirts are indecent.â€
“Caroline Auntie was a cheerleader!â€
“In college. When you’re in college, I’ll forbid you then, too.â€
Nine-year old me promptly burst in to tears. Later, my mother came to my room and helped me match a v-neck sweater from my old Catholic school uniform with a pleated skirt I usually wore to church—i.e. one which went to the middle of my knee. She unpacked a box in my closet and wordlessly handed me my toy pom-poms. My six-year old sister glared at her indignantly, so Mom rolled her eyes and did the same for her. I was so excited. Finally, a “cool†costume, one which didn’t involve an uncomfortable, weird-looking plastic mask to secure with an elastic band, from a pre-packaged ensemble. I went to sleep feeling giddy.
The next morning, for the first time ever, I was tardy for school. I don’t remember why, but I was. When I walked in to class just before recess, everyone froze and stared at me. The hopeful smile on my face dissolved; this year, the popular girls were all babies in cutesy pajamas with pacifiers around their necks. I thought the weirdness in the air was due to my lame costume, but within a few minutes I discovered it was caused by something else entirely.
The moment the bell rang, my desk was surrounded. This couldn’t be good. Was I going to get locked in a closet or a bathroom again?
“Why are you here?â€
“Yeah, we thought you weren’t coming.â€
“Shouldn’t you be at home crying?â€
“Mrs. Doyle said you wouldn’t come in today.â€
The questions assaulted me one after the other. I was baffled.
"Why…would…Mrs. Doyle say that?†I stammered.
“DUH, because Gandhi’s daughter got killed.â€
“Isn’t she like your queen or something? Or a Hindu God?â€
“No you buttheads, she’s like the president of her country.â€
At the end of the last sentence, the boy speaking gestured towards me. When did they get so enlightened? Last week, they asked if I was Cherokee and said “How†whenever I walked by, or pantomimed yowling war cries with their hands and mouth.
“She’s not the president of my country. I’m…I’m from this country. My president is Ronald Reagan.â€
They got impatient and vaguely hostile.
“No, you’re Indian. Mrs. Doyle said you were in mourning.â€
“Did you not like her or something, is that why you don’t care?â€
“I heard they dip her in milk before they burn her up.â€
“Duh…that’s because they worship cows.â€
I put my head down on my desk, as if we were playing “heads up, seven upâ€.
“See? She’s crying now…she is Indian.â€
And with that they walked off, to do whatever it was that popular fifth-graders did.
::
Spring 1987.
I was sitting by myself (as usual…it’s always awesome to transfer to a K-8 school in the seventh grade, when no one is interested in making new friends with some outsider), reading something from the “The Babysitters Clubâ€, pretending I was Mary Anne Spier.
“Hey ugly girl…â€
I looked up to see a tall 8th grader whom every girl was crushing on…he was standing with his best friend, who elbowed him and muttered, “ask her!â€
“Weren’t you supposed to be aborted?
I was horrified and confused. Horrified because these people never talked to me, confused because…
“You know, since you’re like…a Hindu and we just learned that they only like to have sons. So we were wondering if your parents wished they had aborted you. You should ask.â€
The sidekick started guffawing and both of them ran off. I sat there, my book still page-down in my lap, unable to read for the rest of recess. I wished I could go home.
Four hours later…
“Where is your sister? What is she up to? I haven’t heard any noise.â€
“I dunno…reading the dictionary or something nerdyâ€.
I realized my father was headed to the dining room, which is where he left the huge, so-heavy-I-couldn’t-lift-it Webster’s dictionary open for me, so he wouldn’t have to constantly retrieve it from the shelf. I slapped half the book over, to obscure what I had been looking at…
“What are you doing? Why did you just do that? What are you hiding?â€
“Um, nothing.â€
I tried to slip my finger out from the page I was trying to bookmark, but he was too quick. The pages flipped back to “Aâ€.
“ABORTION? You are looking at ABORTION? Oh my God, why did I sacrifice and struggle and come to this country, so my 12-year old daughter could be impregnated? Were you raped? Did someone do something to you? WHY ARE YOU LOOKING AT THAT WORD!â€
I actually didn’t know what “raped†meant, either. My parents hadn’t explained anything like that to me yet. I was still playing with Barbie and sleeping with my stuffed Persian cat; they saw no need. I made a mental note to look up “rapeâ€.
My mother came running, “What is this?â€
“She is looking at ABORTION!â€
“Why?â€
“Was I supposed to be aborted?â€
My parents faces fell slack from astonishment.
My Mother looked at my Father, then me. “Why…would…you…ask…such a thing?â€
“Some kids at school asked me to ask you if you wished you had aborted me. I didn’t know what that meant…â€
My Father walked away. My Mother came up to me, looked me in the eye and said, “No. We did not wish that. Your Father was very excited, in fact, he always said he hoped you would turn out to be a girl and he was so happy you did.â€
My Mother seemed sad. “You don’t like your new school, do you?â€
I shook my head, no.
::
Fall 1989.
“Class, today we are going to do something a bit different—we’re going to look at Catholicism’s impact on the world.â€
I tried not to smirk as I recalled my Father’s rants about how Catholicism destroyed things and was rather evil.
“We’re going to start with India, which is where Anna is from!â€
Uh…
“One of the most visible Catholics in the world has chosen India, to serve. Mother Theresa uses her faith to care for the filthy, the neglected, the unfortunate…â€
Oh, sweet Jesus.
“…let’s start our discussion by asking our Indian student more!â€
“Um, I’m American.â€
“Yes, dear. But you’re Indian. What’s India like?â€
“I’m just saying, I was born here, so I don’t really know—“
“Now, let’s not fib…I now for a fact you just came back from your country.â€
“Well…um…yes, but it’s my parents’ country…no, wait, even they are American citizens.â€
The nun was getting impatient. “May I remind you that discussion counts for your participation grade? Now would you like to add something constructive to this conversation?â€
“Uh…sure. Well, I did just get back from India. I had not visited it since I was five, so I learned a lot.†The nun nodded, with an encouraging smile.
“And tell us about the poverty you saw, the contrasts with America.â€
“I…didn’t see poverty really…â€
“Calcutta is very impoverished! How is that possible?â€
“I went to Kerala. I’ve never been to Calcutta. I’m from South India. I went to where my parents are from and visited their families. And Kerala is lush and green and so pretty. The people are all really smart and the museum I went to—“
“How far is Careluh from Calcutta?â€
“It’s really far.â€
“So far that you didn’t see beggars?â€
“I saw a few…â€
“JUST a few?â€
“No more than I see when I visit San Francisco.â€
“That’s it young lady. I will not tolerate your smart-aleck behavior. To the principal’s office you will go and you’ll have detention, later.â€
“But I didn’t…â€
“Would you like me to double your punishment?â€
I nodded miserably and walked out, reaching in to my backpack for my headphones. Reel Life’s “Send Me an Angel†accompanied me as I dawdled on my way to the office.
::
I thought of all of those moments, yesterday. I’ll get to why in a mere moment.
Besides my younger sibling, I was the only Indian kid at all of my schools except for the last one I cited. Obviously, my little sister did not accompany me to high school, but there was one other Indian girl there. Unfortunately, she wanted nothing to do with me, because she couldn’t relate to me; she told me I wasn’t Indian enough, that I was white-washed.
I was South Indian and Christian, I didn’t do garba or understand what she was talking about when she asked me about whether I preferred Salwars to lenghas–in fact, I didn’t even know what a lengha was…just like I was clueless about which Bollywood actor I should have a crush on. Once she realized that I had no experience with such things, she decided she had no use for me. We didn’t speak, despite sitting next to each other, in home room.
This is now a well-known tale, this trial-by-ignorance which older 1.5/second gens went through. I am amazed and relieved when I understand that things will never be that brutal for generation 3, not in this world where the internet sates curiosity while dissolving international borders and knitting us all together via the web.
India is no longer so weird or foreign; today, people don’t eat monkey brains on the big screen. The little ABDs I’ve met recently who are nine, 12 and 14 are informed, empowered, righteous and sassy. Once upon a time, if you had told me that girls in this country would wear lenghas and saris to their Junior Prom or in their Senior portrait, I would have thought you were a bad comedian. I would have and did wear Gunne Sax, to both, way back in the early 90s.
::
I often say that I didn’t become a desi until my final year of college, which is when the ISA was allowed back on campus; nothing like “India Night†to give you a concentrated dose of culture. By the time I commenced my second semester of graduate school, in 2000, I had crossed over in to what felt like another realm—for the first time, the majority of my friends were brown. That was life-altering for a girl who lived through the three childhood situations I started this post with. The more people I met from abroad, the more I experienced, and the more I changed.
I had taken plenty of South Asian studies classes as an undergrad, but going to a hyper-International school like GW was like getting the practical experience to complement years of theory. Now, I have a rich, self-defined relationship with the subcontinent, a relationship which I’m so immersed in, it confuses and vaguely irritates my parent. She shakes her head when she catches me reading “Learn Malayalam in 30 days†or when she overhears me interrogating my cherished, fobulous friends about everything I don’t know (which is obviously a LOT).
The end result of all this is that though I’m not from India, now, I am of it. I love it, but not blindly. I celebrate it, but I don’t do so because of inherited jingoism. India is like a family member; I will bitch about it and worry and criticize…but heaven help someone else who attempts to do so in my presence. I know I have annoyed and even enraged some of you with some of my posts; some of you have accused me of being anti-India, when that is the furthest thing from reality. “I love my Indiaâ€, I’ve written cheekily a few times at the Mutiny. Once, one of you pushed back; “What does that even mean? How is it YOURS?â€
It’s mine because it just is, because I want it to be and also, because for my entire childhood, I felt like I was being thrown in to a deep well by my classmates, in an extreme act of othering. My sole company? No, not my Baby-sitters Club or Cheerleaders books—it was my ancestral country, which had been roughed up along side of me, before being tossed in the pit after me.
Once, when I couldn’t take the torment meted out to me, I burst in to tears in front of my Father and told him that I hated my uber-competitive, ultra-bitchy high school, where uniforms which were meant to equalize were an ineffective joke played on girls who didn’t have Dooney and Bourke backpacks, Gucci purses or polo players on their shirts and socks. I wailed that I was miserable, that I hated sticking out like the stench of patchouli in a room full of Chanel, that I didn’t fit in anywhere, especially with thick, long hair which reached the backs of my knees. “Where am I supposed to go? Where will people be nice to me?â€
For once, instead of dismissing me or mocking me, he looked lost in thought, before he murmured, “Indiaâ€.
Later that summer, we visited Ooty, another boarding school I can’t remember and two private high schools, one in Kottayam, the other in Cochin. Though I had hated India the first week I was there, after being terrorized by insects which looked like they had been imported from my nightmares, finding myself mired in a decades-old family feud and realizing, to my hostile resentment, that no, Indian girls did NOT have hair so long that they could sit on it, that I was the only naïve moron who lived up to that now passé ideal…I eventually calmed down.
Two weeks in to our two-month long trip, I was fluent again in my first language, Malayalam, and after my first month in Kerala, whatever resistance I felt to this strange new reality melted. I felt a peace I had never known before, because for the first time in my life, everyone looked like me, worshipped where I did and ate what I ate. I was enchanted and fine with staying; I daydreamed about waving to my father and sister at the airport in Madras, before being whisked back to Kerala by either my Dad’s elder brother or his beloved best friend.
My father realized that he couldn’t bear to leave me on the other side of the world, and that was the end of that. I returned to the U.S., to nuns who loathed non-Catholic, uncooperative me, to girls who yanked open my cardigan so that they could exclaim, “OMG, she’s still poor!†when they saw no logo prancing across my breast, to once again being exiled and alone. Daddy was troubled. Had he been selfish? “You know, you can always go to India. In a way, it will always be your home. If you are fed up…you could go back. You have that option. You are not rootless. I know you were happy, there…â€
So, to me, India has always been synonymous with sanctuary. A naïve sentiment, I know, but also, a necessary fiction; it helped me survive.
How could I disparage my refuge, my roots? And could I stand by idly, when, on a popular blog, India was repeatedly tarnished?
::
Jezebel is part of Gawker’s online empire. Its tagline is Celebrity, Sex, Fashion. Without the airbrushing. When I stumbled upon it, it was love at first browse. It was smart, defiant and allergic to bullshit. It was fierce. For the first time, in many, many years, I felt like I had found the successor to Sassy, the legendary teen magazine which saved my sanity in a “YM†world. And who were these commenters?! These women who were righteous, bawdy, witty and often, hilarious? This was like the best of my sorority years, with none of the annoying idocratic declarations or pesky monthly dues. After weeks of lurking, I wanted to dive in this rollicking online hot tub…but there was one catch: you had to audition to comment!
Audition to become a commenter. To become a registered commenter on this site, you first need to be approved by our team. We’re looking for comments that are interesting, substantial or highly amusing. So write a comment, polish up your words and choose a username and password below. Your comment will only appear once (or if) you’re approved. Want to know more? Consult the Comment FAQ. [Jezebel]
I submitted my thoughts and then spent an anxious day or so wondering if I’d be deemed worthy; a few hours in to the weirdness, I realized exactly what it reminded me of—the end of sorority rush, when you make your choice and then sleeplessly wait for a bid. When my comment finally appeared on the site, I cackled triumphantly. YES! I was allowed in! I was a part of the coolest clique ever, the anti-clique, which called out anyone and everything. This was AWESOME.
Except…I started to see references to India, in their news roundups and then comments, which would inevitably refer back to the brown element of the post…and unlike the rest of the Jezebel experience…they were less than…fair. Sometimes, they were downright ignorant. Worse still, the female bloggers whom I had been crushing on pretty heavily seemed to not get it; sometimes, it seemed as if they were encouraging the ick. I have to tell you, it really did feel like being a teen all over again, right down to the confusion, the angst and the anticipation of exile.
Does that seem melodramatic ? It’s not, to me. I spend all my time here, at SM. Like a new, stay-at-home mother who is starved for “grown-up†conversation, i.e. that which does not involve poo or puking, I wanted more (and please, no stupid conflation of poo/puke/infancy with SM…sometimes, a cigar is just a cigar and a metaphor is, too.) Unfortunately, my source for what I had craved seemed less than welcoming.
And here’s where it gets all afterschool special; would I quietly observe the unfair digs at my “sanctuary†and remain mute, to protect my coveted place in that Jezebel-space? Or would I do what I was aching to—speak my mind, at the risk of alienating the popular and powerful? Yeah, you know how this turns out…
Indian actress Shilpa Shetty has been arrested at the Mumbai, India airport. Her crime? Obscenity. The act? Being the recipient of that overly demonstrative kidd on the cheek from Richard Gere. [Daily Mail] 12:45 PM ON THU SEP 27 2007 BY JENNIFER. 1,428 views
BY WARMAIDEN AT 09/27/07 12:58 PM This takes ‘blaming the victim’ to a whole ‘nother level. yay, India! (PS – Shouldn’t they be hanging those guys who drugged and raped the Japanese touristas?)
BY LOVESTOSMILE AT 09/27/07 01:03 PM My lord. I’m Indian and this is absolutely embarassing.
BY LOVESTOSMILE AT 09/27/07 01:11 PM As someone who’s Indian, I can say with all confidence that this is a matter of national shame.
BY ANDALUCÃA AT 09/27/07 01:11 PM @LovesToSmile: I’m American. We won the Embarrassment Sweepstakes years ago.
BY RAINBOWBRITE AT 09/27/07 01:12 PM You’d think India would be trying to look a little more progressive these days. That “India at 60” campaign is everywhere here in NY, but stories like this one don’t really help their tourism…
BY SARAHINSASK AT 09/27/07 01:13 PM What a disgusting, filthy crime. Right? Right? Clearly India has no heinous criminal at large than Shilpa Shetty.
BY AHWANNABE AT 09/27/07 01:14 PM lovely country we’re outsourcing work to.
BY HABIBI AT 09/27/07 01:16 PM Jennifer, fix the typo – India is spelled “India” and not “Indnia”. Since when is getting a kiss on the cheek a crime? The Indian government should be embarrassed by this.
BY ANNOYINGFEMALELEADVOICEOVER AT 09/27/07 01:16 PM She was let go as soon as the cops realized the charges had been turned over months ago. Not that this justifies the act, but for a heads up.
BY CHOCOLATECOFFEEBEANS AT 09/27/07 01:30 PMIt is things like this that make me completelly terrified to travel to the Middle East at all, even though I consider myself relatively well-travelled. This combined with stories of getting hands cut off for stealing (not that I would steal) or the weird rules about things like alcohol and women’s dress. I just know it would take me approximately 15 minutes before I broke a law or offended someone. No thanks.
BY SUITABLEGIRL AT 09/27/07 02:32 PM @ahwannabe: Yes, let’s bring outsourcing in to this, it’s obviously germane. One tiny reminder: we should also bring it up when Canada or Ireland or every other country we outsource to gets brought up in any context whatsoever– that way we’re consistent.
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She wasn’t arrested, she was detained by some idiot on a power trip (not rare in India). This is not a matter of national shame, not when there are a million worse problems in the subcontinent. Is it stupid? Yes. Should this have happened? No. But let’s not go overboard, even though it is *so* fun and satisfying to snark at those unenlightened, job-stealing misogynists.
BY SUITABLEGIRL AT 09/27/07 02:34 PM @CHOCOLATECOFFEEBEANS: Right, except India is not in the Middle East. And as flawed as it is, its hassles are a far cry from Saudi Arabia, which is what you’re comparing it to.
BY SPECTATERTOT AT 09/27/07 02:40 PM @LovesToSmile: ditto (on being indian and finding this embarassing)
BY CHOCOLATECOFFEEBEANS AT 09/27/07 03:32 PM Ya know, I realized what I had said right after I posted it. I do realize India is not the “Middle East” but as has been mentioned, it is the crazy mix of government and religion that is a common thread to a lot of these countries and I would just not feel comfortable, and would be terrified of doing something wrong.
BY NARYMARY AT 09/27/07 04:10 PM This is really sad. I hope nothing awful happens to her!
BY NIGERIENNE AT 09/27/07 04:34 PM Way to set India back more than the people of Dell.
BY AHWANNABE AT 09/27/07 05:18 PM @Suitablegirl: AFAIK, Canada and Ireland have human rights laws that are at least somewhat similar to the ones we have in the good ole USA, so if the fat cats want to oursource there because it’s cheaper, can’t argue with that.
What I take offense to is when our fat cats outsource jobs to countries where this kind of abuse is considered okay, when we have LAWS in place to prevent it from happening here. That is the height of hypocrisy, and yes I will continue to bring up the subject of outsourcing until I’m blue in the face, or people get a clue.
BY SFIKUS AT 09/27/07 06:41 PM @Suitablegirl: “She wasn’t arrested, she was detained by some idiot on a power trip (not rare in India). This is not a matter of national shame, not when there are a million worse problems in the subcontinent.”
– Were she not Shilpa Shetty, and considered a bit of a national treasure, she could have faced a whole trove of other pleasures reserved for women in India – acid, stoning, etc. Yes, after all the sabre rattling, she was let off easily, but I think much of her reported reaction was compounded by her knowledge of what _could_ have happened…
BY SUITABLEGIRL AT 01:40 AM
@narymary: I think she’ll be okay.
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@sfikus: Were she not Shilpa Shetty, Richard Gere wouldn’t have kissed her…I think it’s a bit much to call her a national treasure, but hey, I also think it’s a bit much to paint this dire, sensational picture of a country which has issues– just like other countries. The horror is everywhere, India doesn’t have a monopoly on it– to me, misogyny is global.
I’m bemused that I am now in this bizarre situation where I stick up for a country I normally criticize righteously.
Want to call India out on something? How about gender-selective abortions, that I’ll agree is an India-specific problem. But acid? Double standards about women who are public figures/tabloids rushing to fan flames? Pot, kettle. As for stoning, again, that’s more of a Taliban penalty for adultery, not an “Indian” one; my concern throughout this thread has been exactly that sort of conflation. India is by no means perfect– but it doesn’t deserve to be painted by such a broad, ugly brush.
“a whole trove of other pleasures reserved for women in India – acid, stoning, etc.”
I was drawn to this site because I loved the fierce women who were creative, free-thinkers…but I’m chagrined to see less thinking and more reacting here. India is a subcontinent, with an amazing range of cultures, traditions, people…my parents came from a state with a matrilineal tradition, but that’s not part of the “India” caricature, so no one knows or wants to acknowledge that. I get sad when I see intelligent, otherwise tolerant women engage in reductionist stereotyping which minimizes and demeans.
Sorry for the extra-long comment. I’m new here, I want to make sure I articulate my position well, because that’s how much I respect this space.
Sigh. My inner teen is currently vaguely miserable. I thought I had discovered this amazing group of girls to hang out with, every day (and you know how difficult that is to do after college!), but perhaps I was so desperate to belong, I didn’t consider the totality of what I was coveting. Worst of all, why were the other two brown Jezebels okay with this? Was I wrong to be hurt on behalf of a country I had never even lived in?
That’s what really bothered me– I was the only one who was not echoing the chorus and following the mood; the choice of the other two desis, to toe some stupid line was like NaCl in my wound. Now it REALLY felt like high school. Is this how it is? You have to kowtow to be welcome? Unfortunately for me, I couldn’t do that the first time I was required to, back in 1988. I’m supposed to find it within me to do so NOW, two decades later? Perhaps I’m wrong about my orientation and I’m not a Jezbian after all.
The prospect of that is depressing. As much as I love my sepia baby, it’s nice to get out and do more than mother (and smother). The last time I tried to get in to a sorority, I was surrounded by people who were often clueless and thus, unintentionally hurtful; at least at the DG house they were essentially oblivious, what hurts the most here is that these women are aware, that they know a little something about India. But it’s just like what my Mom always says (especially after meeting a patient who has become “empowered†with drug or other info via WebMD, who is helpfully clutching a printout of such): a little bit of knowledge can be very dangerous. For the first time, ever, I wonder if it’s better to be ignorant about some things.
You’ll probably call me a ‘U.T.’ but I think you’re holding white people up to superhuman expectations…and if I was a typical non-overtly racist white guy, I’d probably become more racist listening to these sorts of diatribes. I almost get the feeling you just want something to feel bitter about.
Terms like ‘white privilege’ leave me cold, and the harping on about ‘unequal power relations’ leaves me cold too. Not that those concepts have no basis in reality…they do…but I think for educated, professional desis to feel so victimised by it is ridiculous.
The Aliens in America show tonight about the Pakistani exchange student should be interesting:
I cringe, my indian-raised sister-in-law, thinks it’ll be hysterical–both are probably true.
http://cwtv.com/shows/aliens-in-america
I have rarely experienced racism in the U.S. as an Indian, but i have experienced it as a man of color. Ever since I started buzzing my head, cops mistake me for a big black person and I get stopped a lot more often than in the past. I had your typical wavy Indian hair back then and drove fast even back then. The way I got treated by cops also got worse. Driving While Black is a valid term.
My sis has experienced more racism than I have in the corporate world. She worked for Lucent in Nebraska. She sensed a lack of respect from some of the white male managers and they would not pay attention to her opinions. She could not wait to leave that place.
I have noticed ignorance more than any out and out racism for most of my life here. But not enough to bother me. Most of my friends are white. And they are very good natured as I give them a hard time sometimes(in a good natured way) whenever they trip up on something racially. I do not get outraged by Apu jokes. (though Gunga Din infuriates me, but that movie has little to do with American culture).
I do understand why ABDs tend to sense racism more than DBDs. ABDs spent all their childhood here and the meanest years usually occur in middle/high school. Also, a lot of us grew up in the 70s,80s when INdians were not that common in places other than the big coastal or northern cities. DBDs come here and a lot of them seem to spend time together in grad school. And let’s be honest. Quite a few of them have experienced bad attitudes from their own ABD cousins. So I doubt they make it a big deal when whites treat them improperly.
Isn’t that the show where the Pakistani Muslim student’s name is “Raj”? I saw the ad for it.
Raj is not a Pakistani Muslim name too is it?
Funny, in a stupid sort of way.
Priviledged professional desis complain about what in America? Being called a name every once in a while? Please! Desi is the new “white”.
Try being an overweight, working-class, “trailer trash” single mom who works two jobs and still needs food stamps to put 3 full meals on her kids tables. Then we can talk.
Amitabh #201,
I don’t think there is anything remotely U.T about what you say. As someone mentioned upthread, my expectations as a DBD are different. Although I am very vocal about any sort of discrimination in my workplace which believe me there is a lot (old WASP bank in New York), I am still willing to give a pass to a lot of things as I consider myself as a guest in this country and like many hosts, some can be assholes. Although if I decided to become an American citizen, I think my sensitivity may be heightened as I would want to feel the same enitlement as the other American citizens. I also think it is naive to think that non-whites (including educated desis) don’t feel subtle racism in 21st century America. To give you an example, the bank I work for is the oldest private bank (still a partnership) there are zero black partners, the only desi who was an MD quit last year to start his own fund.
Yep, an Indian-descent South African non-Muslim plays a Pakistani Muslim named “Raja”.
Inauthenticity at it’s finest.
BoNY?
but I think you’re holding white people up to superhuman expectations…and if I was a typical non-overtly racist white guy, I’d probably become more racist listening to these sorts of diatribes. I almost get the feeling you just want something to feel bitter about.
If people, any people contend they live and believe in an equitable society, then don’t deliver. I call them out on it. If in your view that’s superhuman expectations, then so be it. If they believe its superhuman expectations, they shouldn’t make the claim. Be upfront and say, “we dont’ give a fuck about you, if you’re here for money, this is how much you’ll get for this work,”
I don’t think you’re a UT, however I just think you have an unsophisticated view of race dynamics in the US, if you think the buck stops at black folks, which I’ve always said was much more intense and charged, given the history here.
If terms like white privilege leave you cold, I suggest you read more about it, in particular from white people themselves (which, as statstics have shown, is more likely get people’s attention, thereby proving the very concept that leaves you cold)
Brown Brothers Harriman
interesting. both BoNY and BBH are claiming to be the oldest private bank in the US.
Lol, BBH is still private though BONY is listed, I believe a part of BBH was formed in 1818. Bush’s grandfather Prescott used to be one of the partners and the Bush’s still keep close ties.
wow, that wouldnt be my cup of tea…
then who are these brown brothers?
Try being an overweight, working-class, “trailer trash” single mom who works two jobs and still needs food stamps to put 3 full meals on her kids tables. Then we can talk.
Try being an overweight, working-clss, ‘nggr’ single mom who works two jobs and still needs food stamps to put 3 full meals on her kids tables. Then we can talk.
Race privilege works within a class structure, because it’s only those in the same social class that compete for the similar resources. Why do you think the south has historically wanted to cling to systematic segregation? Because they were marginalized by the ‘northern’ elite, and even though those poor whites didn’t have a pot to piss in, they still had someone below them, someone to say, ‘well, at least I ain’t that‘
Manju,
I will have to find out 🙂 It really is different than any other place I have worked before. Skull and Bones and the works
this ist important thing said on this thread.
So then what privelege does the single white trash mom have over the single black trash mom in today’s world?
And please note that I’m using the term “trash” here to illustrate the point, not to label any human as “trash”.
I agree, I am waiting for the Desi Goldman and Lehman, although I believe Fareed Zakaria’s brother Arshad who was at Merrill and didn’t see eye to eye with Stan O’neill started his own fund. Although Vikram Pandit erstwhile MS and old lane at Citi may become the CEO
So then what privelege does the single white trash mom have over the single black trash mom in today’s world?
Well for one, they get the benefit of the doubt in character assessment, “things haven’t gone her way”, how often do you hear people making statements on the “pathology of the white race” based on the single white trash mother? how often do you hear the opposite?
It’s a very easy question you’ve asked, just look at any resource these two would be competing for and see on average which side of the bread the butter is on.
i heard deutsche is pretty much desi by now.
You are right, although I know a lot of desis that work in Goldman and Lehman, I am waiting for the day it is easy for desis to make partner, although at Goldman I have my money on Ashok Varadhan.
must be. i’m somewhat familiar with them, they have a mez fund there i once approached. but i believe they were once rather powerful, and mostly democratic in their politics if i recall (harriman).
when one sees how much wall st has changed, one can’t help but to appreciate how fleeting and fluid power really is, as all of us observing the rise of BRIC knows.
i read recently that 270 members of the forbes 400 (USA) are completely self made while 74 inherited most of their fortune. this partially explains why america seems so friendly to new immigrants whlie burma is a nightmare. her free markets temper her racism. of course, we’re here for the $$$, not the freedom and equality; but they are really one in the same.
the head of prop trading (a desi) left to start his own fund even though he was in line for ceo.
FYI a fund that owns this stuff.
prop trading at goldman that is.
i actually know a bunch of older desis that came here for freedom and equality….
an intersting idea. i dont fully understand what you mean by that though.
yeah, i know a slightly older guy who came to america b/c some bad shit happenned to his dad in bihar. made MD at sollie, started his own fund, made a gazillion, and is now investing in india as well as funding an education intiative there.
funnny how things come full circle.
“Fuck, I meant Tim Wise.”
ah–is he your guru. Very odd chap–a white white-blamer, unusual for his generation but not too rare among 60s uberliberals, who were really very adept at accepting blame for imperialism. I can see where you get your relentless America-baiting. While you may draw comforting opinions from Mr. Wise — and his Other-Orientation is perhaps admirable — I would be careful of pulling him out of your pocket too often. His utterances are controversial, especially those applying to post-60s reality. But nevertheless Wise is a white comfort to any downtrodden person of color who feels his predicament in America has nothing to do with himself.
Manju,
Are you talking about Dinakar Singh? Talking about things coming to a full circle, this guys I know used to head Emerging Markets for Morgan, has gone back to India to head asset management after 20 years in America.
just the old concept that freedom is indivisible, that econoomic freedom goes hand in hand with other ones. china may prove us wrong, but we’ll see.
i think they will. i think the linking of economic freedoms and personal freedoms in peoples mind is a biproduct of the counties that won WWII and became wealthy in the 20th centurity happened to have both. i think that was an accident of history, and china will stand out as a glaring example of a capitalist totalatarian state. such a place could be wealthy, but i wouldnt want to live there.
no. my guys a currency trader. fund is in london now, though i just heard today coincidentally (from his brother-in-law) that he’s opened an office in india. bro-in-law is looking to start some ventures in india too.
khosla fit this bill too (though i;m not sure if he came to the usa for $$ or freedom).
i think a lot of people come for the combination of the 2. its a powerfull 1,2 sucker punch to draw immigrants.
i was literally helping him out with the ppm as i was reading this thread.
I would be careful of pulling him out of your pocket too often. His utterances are controversial, especially those applying to post-60s reality. But nevertheless Wise is a white comfort to any downtrodden person of color who feels his predicament in America has nothing to do with himself.
In fact, I actually prefer the writings of non-white anti-racists, as they are in a position to fully understand and comment on the phenomenon, the only problem is, it becomes necessary to bring out Tim Wise and the like, just to show that a white man also is capable of understanding the situation, at least at some level. It starts to turn heads then (and proves exactly what he says about white privilege), of course there are those who attempt to marginalize him and his kind as you feebly attempted.
What utterances are you talking about? What has he said that’s controversial, or not backed up by fact? How about you back some of your bullsht up? In fact, he was instrumental in defeating David Duke in his run for public office? Unless David Duke is something us reverse racist baiters have dreamed up. I never got the memo that this is pull sh*t from your ass day.
I’m tired of hearing about white privilege. So what, there are alot of bigger problems in the world then this, which is just a perfect excuse for some people of color.
HMF, we get it, you don’t like white people.
wow. switch to decaf..
HMF, how many single mothers on welfare do you know?
Who says, “thing haven’t gone her way?”
Come on!
I work with these women. I’d like to know how many single mothers on government assistance do you know personally?
as you typed this, britney spears just lost custody of her kids. spooky
I read that the got a police order ordering her to not spank her kids. Is spanking your kids a crime now? Didn’t know. I’d better be careful.
huh? what if they need a patak on the kundi? some kids just need one (or two) every now and then.
in some jurisdictions you can’t even do that to your monkey
my confusion is increased. what if your monkey needs spanking?
just blow it offf
HMF, we get it, you don’t like white people.
I was just waiting to wade through all the nonsense commentary to finally get to the real profound, and erudite observations, one’s that would really challenge a thinking mind.
didn’t eminem say that with an uncomfortable looking eddie murphy next to him? “hmf doesn’t care about white people.”
dravidian lurker,
man you can’t be that funny and actually expect any of us to come up with thought-provoking statements that will make HMF less of a misogynistic NOI admirer.
Ok, I don’t want to jump into the race debate, but I really find this back and forth ridiculous. I don’t always agree with HMF, but I think it’s perfectly appropriate to discuss the concept of white privilege without everyone blowing things into a white privilege == reverse racism == you hate white people. Please, could we at least pretend to attempt the level of conversation, here? Race interacts with a lot of other identities, including class, to create systems of disadvantange, and all of those systems are human-driven and human-made. I also think we’re really blurring the line between issues of systematic or institutional racism with moments of racial tension/hatred/violence. They’re not the same thing, and they don’t operate in some zero-sum equilibrium where everyone has the same experience. There is really excellent scholarship done on this, and I think it’s worth taking a look instead of trading pot shots about who knows the most socially oppressed people in society and why that legitimates or delegitimizes someone’s authority to speak with analysis. By this measure, who should be allowed to speak on race issues in the U.S.? Only folks who grow up ‘hood’ or ‘ghetto’ and never make it out?
I am also really really sick of this over-generalization. The idea that desi == white not only ignores a history of race-based disadvantage for desi communities in the U.S., it ignores the current experiences of racism that desis face AND it’s repeated by those desis who have the class privilege and background to try to penetrate the white racial hierarchy in the U.S. Here’s a news flash: There are a LOT of desis who don’t grow up in class privilege and who don’t go on to become “white” or “privileged professionals.” I’m not arguing that they’re the majority, but please exercise some critical analysis and refrain from attributing your analysis as the only legitimate viewpoint within a diverse, varied, and hetereogenous community.
obviously not, but I think you would also agree that some level of experience (either anecdotal or, preferably, with the relevant data) is necessary to speak with any level of authority on a specific kind of bias. It will be hard for an American civil-rights activist, with extensive experience in activism during the civil-rights era, to speak with authority on the experiences of north-african Jews in Israeli society unless they were familiar with the relevant scholarship and data.