I’ve known for a while that India does poorly in the Olympics, but I had never realized exactly how poorly:
The world’s second most populous nation … ranks dead last worldwide in the number of Olympic medals won per capita. Paraguay, Niger and Iraq have done better. [Link]
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p designtimesp=”3266″>This statistic seems to only count countries that have won at least one medal, which leaves India better off than countries without medals, but that’s slim consolation.
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p designtimesp=”3268″>Now it may be unfair to compare medals on a per capita basis since that pits India against countries much smaller in population size and Olympic winnings are hard to scale up. However, even if you look at the two largest countries in the world, China has won over 100 times as many medals as India in the past few decades:
Since 1984, when China rejoined the Olympic Games after decades of isolation, the Asian superpower has won 320 medals. India, its political and economic rival, has won three… [Link]And in a century of Olympics, India has won just 16 medals (fewer than that other nation of a billion, China, typically wins at a single [sic] Games) and only eight in the last 50 years. [Link]
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p designtimesp=”3277″>But, you object, China has a communist-era olympic medal factory which even tries to breed athletes. Fair enough, but even amongst Commonwealth countries in general, India lags so far behind that the officials of the Commonwealth Games have scolded India for not doing enough to avoid embarrassment when it next hosts the games in 2010 [Link]. No matter how you cut it, India is at the bottom of sporting countries worldwide.
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p designtimesp=”3281″>It is true that India does better in some sports than in others, but India’s best sports all require little physical exertion:
“India is doing very well in chess. And pretty well at cue sports like billiards and snooker. And for the past couple of years, Indian golfers have done very well on the Asian circuit…” [Link]
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p>The fact is that the Indian government has (perhaps rightly) never invested in sports, and what they spend has a low ROI:
“There are a lot of other priorities, like education and electricity,” said Indian Olympic Association Secretary General Randhir Singh. India does funnel a respectable amount of money toward its sports federations… [but] India’s sports centers spend much of their budget on salaries for bureaucrats, while athletes complain about lack of money for track improvements, coaches and better running shoes. [Link]
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p designtimesp=”3290″>And market incentives are entirely oriented towards producing cricket stars, so sports with few viewers languish:
But perhaps the biggest reason India can’t achieve Olympic fame is cricket… Over the years, it has become India’s only important sport. As a result, a huge share of corporate sponsorship money goes to the cricket stars, and every athletically minded kid dreams of being one of them. In India’s villages, few kids play soccer or run races. Instead they play cricket. [Link]
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p designtimesp=”3294″>Outside of cricket, things are pretty much teh suck:
The painful truth is India is rubbish at pretty much every other game. It has no football team worthy of the name, ranking 142nd in the world, behind the Maldives (paradise-island nation, pop. 339,330). Its rugby squad lost 78-3 in a recent match in England, to Pershore (pleasant market town, pop. 7,304). [Link]
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p designtimesp=”3298″>Culture also plays a role – Pakistan and Sri Lanka also do poorly in the Olympics and poor Bangladesh has yet to pick up a single medal. And again, without much of a market for domestic sports aside from cricket, parents have no incentive to push their children the way parents in America do:
“In India, parents do not encourage their children to play games. That’s a big handicap,” the Olympic Association’s Singh said. “But if there’s no money in sport, no parent wants his child to waste his time…” [Link]
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p designtimesp=”3302″>Lastly, consider the graph at the bottom of the post which shows that Indian men are the most virginal in the world [via Manish]. In America every young man knows that scoring on the field will help him score off it. There’s a reason why most sports involve getting a ball in a net / goal past a tenacious defender and you don’t need to be Freud to see it.
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p designtimesp=”3305″>But in India, where the average male loses his virginity at 19, incentives are different. Doing well at field hockey wont help you win the heart of fair maiden, but getting into engineering school might help you marry a cuter (less homely) girl when it comes time for your marriage to be deranged.
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p designtimesp=”3306″>So here’s my question — Is there is a way to increase India’s medal booty, and should India even try?
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p designtimesp=”3309″>After all, India is 10th in the world in world records, and has a very healthy sense of national self esteem:
the “2003 Global Attitudes survey found India was the most nationalistic place on earth, with 74% of respondents ‘completely agreeing’ that Indian culture is superior. “[cite].
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p designtimesp=”3315″>India excels in plenty of areas, like patents filed, fastest 10 miles skipped, and number of men singing and dancing on screen while wearing fugly costumes. Should we even try to second-guess India’s priorities?
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p>Related posts: American investing $120M to train Indians for Olympics, If not Torino, then where? and Desi athletes take the gold.
Very important question. I think there is no real need to “breed” athletes in artificial western games to “show” that Indians can compete. Why is synchronized swimming an olympic sport and not kabaddi?? Give me a break. What is the deal with that stupid Javelline throw (I am sure I have spelled it wrong, but I dont give a F#$%)?? I have no problems with Soccer and Field hokey.
I would rather have the government focus on that minor issue of malnourished kids (more than 40% I believe) a little more. As average wealth increase in India and people feel more secure with their financial future, they will pick up sports and start excelling. The market will determine that, not some arbitary european sports that are only played once in 4 years.
I would rather have the government focus on that minor issue of malnourished kids (more than 40% I believe) a little more.
this might be a major reason why india sux so hard at sports. major sports select from the extreme tails of the distribution. even modest shifts in the mean can have enormous impacts at the tails. according to nation master india is #11 is % of under 5 who are stunted from malnutrition. 46%. shit, bangladesh at 45% is doing better (though i wouldn’t be surprised if this is because of more infant mortality or lying). if you’re in the same league as bangladesh in a health metric you definitely don’t have your shit together http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/hea_nut_of_und_fiv_suf_fro_stu_mod_sev-fives-suffering-stunting-moderate-severe
(north korea is #19 at 42%)
p.s. china is at 16%.
Agreed that India does poorly at the Olympics… those who all have problem with it, stop whatever you are doing and go prepare to represent INDIA in the Olympics or else please STFU.
Is it not clear that Affirmative Action / Reservation is needed ? Sport is supposed to be inclusionary. Every argument that AA advocates make for education can be used for sport. The sub-continent will be a huge beneficiary.
We do poorly in any sport, the only sport that India can compete in is a sport that few countries care about and in those countries it’s not even the second sport. The reason? Indian kids go to tuition after school, before school and during the holidays. Even a five year old have homework. I was actually shocked when I visited India this summer, I didn’t once during three weeks see my 16 year old cousin hang out with his friends or do anything except studying.
That crap about India being poor, we have a huge middle class of not so poor people they alone constitute more people than the fourth largest country in the world. Then of course lots of poorer countries do alot better, not per capita, they do better period! In fact in most countries the best athletes come from a poorer families.
Now I agree that I don’t care to much about India not winning any Olympic medals, but it’s a symptom of a sick system that burn out the kids before they get their first employment. Basically it’s as if the middle class kids are child labourers as well.
The reason? Indian kids go to tuition after school, before school and during the holidays. Even a five year old have homework. I was actually shocked when I visited India this summer, I didn’t once during three weeks see my 16 year old cousin hang out with his friends or do anything except studying.
yeah, those chinese, koreans and japanese are just hanging out and playing all day instead of studying! look at their terrible literacy and educational stats next to india!
That crap about India being poor, we have a huge middle class of not so poor people they alone constitute more people than the fourth largest country in the world.
here’s a hypothesis: isn’t high social status correlated with vegetarianism in many indian cultures? i wonder if that might have something to do with it.
That part about sexual partners isn’t really funny, the worst part is that India prides it self with that. It’s a love less society. I’ve always thought Indian family photos where funny, because the family members never touch each other, look at them they are hilarious it’s as if it where three or four strangers standing next to each other.
Ah, the promise of nubile virgins! Ennis, are you picking marketing tips from your imaginary jihadi manager friends? 😉
p.s. and i don’t want to seem like i’m ragging on brownland all the time. but honestly i think anyone who looks at the quantitative concentration of low human capital in south asia can’t help but be staggered. everyone focuses on africa because of the political instability, but most african nations have better nutrition than india, nepal and bangladesh.
razib_the_atheist
Other asian countries have our tendencies but we are by far the worst, and as it was pointed out Chinese medals isn’t a product of their society, it’s a product of the state. Chinese kids (or other asian kids for that matter) who live in the west are very good at sports.
“here’s a hypothesis: isn’t high social status correlated with vegetarianism in many indian cultures?”
It’s a theory, but we eat meat in most northern states, it’s mainly in the south that people are pure vegetarians.
razib_the_atheist
Even though you may be right, you are talking about stats. I don’t know if you ever lived in India, there are huge differences between the states, and even though poor parts of rural India is in a very bad shape, the number of well fed Indian kids is huge. It’s a cultural symptom.
Ever have the feeling that you’re holding all the cards but everyone is playing chess? 😀
There are many things India could do:
Beat them at their game. Set up training centers. Provide funding. Attract talent. Hire nutritionists. Clean up the dope scene. Compete. Win.
Beat them at a new game. Start a new sport. Something that can be played in tropical climates. Everyday. By everybody. Except non-Indians. Lobby to make that an Olympic sport. Compete. Win.
Forget competing in the arena. Be the people who design, build and operate sports facilities worldwide. Provide nutrition research services. Be the people who tell Lance Armstrong how many calories he should consume per day. If you can’t win gold inside, you can at least earn gold outside.
Outsource athletes to the US or China or someone who performs well. Buy them out. Like a football player or a baseball team. They still wear the medals at the podium, but the tally goes to India’s total. Offer free 10-year supplies of Indian food. To begin after the games. No sense giving athletes coronaries with samosas and bondas.
Create alternate sports, desi-ishtyle. No horse racing. Only horse trading. No fencing. Only fence-sitting. Or saber-rattling. No hammer throw. Only mic-stand throw. No throws of discus. Only throes of discussion. We are like this only.
I don’t know if you ever lived in India, there are huge differences between the states, and even though poor parts of rural India is in a very bad shape, the number of well fed Indian kids is huge.
i know. i just read a paper about the two problems in brownload: disease caused by malnutrition, and disease caused by fatitude. the middle class use their money to pig out. that happens in the US too. obesity is a problem among browns (a singaporean friend tells me that the fatties in that city-state are disproportionately brown).
Obesity is a problem because Indians never exercise.
That part about the middle class using their money to pig out, couldn’t agree less. 25 years ago there where no middle class. Most of our problems with malnutrition is a heritage from the wonderful years o state planning and Nehruvian socialism, it used to be far far worse.
I do agree that the system is sick. But I think that extreme financial insecurity is what make parents drive their kids to these extremes in terms of education. I dont think it it is out of true spirit of learning but out of desperation. It does display the sickness of the system. For middle class kids there is absolutely no life outside studies.
Obesity is a problem because Indians never exercise.
this is true. but also in the USA south asians tend to have more issues with a “western” diet than westerners. just like we get drunk easier.
RC
“But I think that extreme financial insecurity is what make parents drive their kids to these extremes in terms of education.”
Thats a point of course, but a huge part of the problem is that there is an extreme emphasis on exams in India, where as in the west they put a lot more emphasis on experience.
Americans and a few other western nations win the most medals because the “juice” that they are on is not detectable(yet). They are one step ahead of the “juice” game. Indians are just not “hi-tech” enough when it comes to the juice. Thats all.
If Indians are failing on the chemistry and engineering side, then they’re really in trouble!
This is certainly true. Also, culturally there is v little respect for sporting accomplishments. eg, people are much more open to the idea of their kid taking a strong interest in music/dance or painting, compared to sports (unless it is chess :D) . Also I have a feeling (this is strictly anecdotal) girls back in the desh are not that impressed by sporting accomplishments.
Again, even with music, etc, these indulgences have to stop at a certain age, to the all important task of preparing for the competitive exams. I don’t blame the parents really: there’s this constant fear in the middle class of joining the ranks of the lower classes (a truly miserable existence).
If you emphasize experience in India, that’d give rise to a completely different set of problems. Exams are a lot more egalitarian: some kid from a really poor family can make it if they are willing to work their ass off (of course coaching centers, etc queer the pitch, but that’s another story). If you go with experience, it’d only be the rich kids with the money and connections to build their experience portfolio who will take all the seats.
In a country with huge disparities like India, I’d say competitive exams are a necessary evil to level the playing field somewhat.
Everyone always says that North Indians eat meat, while South Indians are Veg. Well a while ago on this site, I think, there was an article about Indian Vegeterianism…it was something like 60% of Indians are non-veg and the most Veg state is actually Gujurat, while South Indian states are less vegeterian than the average Indian state.
Anyway, more important than ‘whether’ Indians are eating meat, is the actual amount of meat eaten. Take a look at this. http://earthtrends.wri.org/searchable_db/index.php?theme=8&variable_ID=193&action=select_countries. You can play around the data and find out, for example, that the average Indian is eating 1/10th the amount of meat of the average Chinese. More interesting than that?….Take a look at China’s increasing meat consumption (it was about the same as Indias many years ago), and correlate that with China’s increasing success on the Olympic table. Of course, this can also be correlated with its rising economy, etc. Why is it that Chinese economic growth has strongly correlated with increased meat consumption, while India’s seemingly has not. Anyway the trend for India seems to be up..maybe a ‘critical mass’ of economic growth has been reached now, and consumption will rise.
Everyone here knows the malnutrition stats are beyond ridiculous. Malnutrition is catastrophic not only statistically, but it devastates the potential abilities of each individual it affects. It is not simply a matter of feeding the little ones. Low birth weight is a tremendous problem in India as well, reflecting poor maternal nutrition. There is a superstition in many parts of India about breastfeeding in the first few days after birth, which incidentally is the most important time nutritionally(you can look that up). Stunted growth is an obvious effect….dare we wonder about stunted brain development. Research needs to be done, however painful it will be, on the real effects of malnutrition specifically in India. Any one of us who has been to Mumbai has been struck by the obvious difference in physical development between the middle class kids in the arcades and the similarly ages street kids. Perhaps given the situation, scientists should investigate the possibility and best methods of ‘salvaging’ stunted children.
Perhaps many of you do not have any specific care for the number of medals India wins in the Olympics, or out success in sports such as soccer. However for the millions of brown-skinned kids in the subcontinent and even those abroad, who do have such dreams and aspirations, the effect of this failure on their psyche can be tremendous. It often strikes directly at the painful question that many young athletes have..”maybe i just can’t be good enough.” If it is not those kids aspirations that you worry about, worry that sporting failures are direct evidence of the failure of India in achieving the full potential of its citizenry, which will, and is, manifest itself in all realms of society.
re: vegetarianism. i have to do more research on this….
India – A country of vegetarians? Think again!: As against the common belief that India is predominantly vegetarian, 64.4 per cent families consume non-vegetarian food with the highest reported in southern states (92.2 per cent) and the least in north (40.4 per cent).
Stunted growth is an obvious effect….dare we wonder about stunted brain development.
don’t wonder, indians do really badly at psychometric tests. far worst than chinese (more than 1 standard deviation worse). the whole iodized salt issue is beyond moronic….
India does not have a huge sporting culture and that is where it all starts. I think in the current context we have an unhealthy ratio of those actually engage in sporting activity and those who just plonk themselves down in front of the TV. I don’t blame parents, they are aware of the risk/rewards situation and will naturally advise in favour of safer choices. What is needed is for young people to follow their passion and work at it till they get somewhere, not necessarily at sport. As someone who’s spent way too much time on sport, I think it’s a trivial activity in the bigger scheme of things and one of the main distractions for a lot of young people (older people have less to lose in terms of other opportunities) given the saturation media coverage. I also hate how the Olympics have become a vehicle for barely concealed nationalism.
vegetarians ii: The food habits of a nation: The findings show that vegetarianism is a function of inherited cultural practice rather than individual belief. Religion and community matter: as many as 55 per cent of Brahmins are vegetarians. The corresponding figure for Adivasis is 12 per cent. Hindus who worship every day are more likely to be vegetarian, but the majority of all Hindus are non-vegetarian. Interestingly, eight per cent of Christians are also vegetarians.
The survey shows that regional location matters more than caste or community. As expected, the lowest proportion of vegetarian families are in coastal States such as Kerala (two per cent), Tamil Nadu (eight per cent), Andhra Pradesh (four per cent), Orissa (eight per cent) and Bengal (three per cent). Most land-locked States, especially in the west and north, are places with the highest proportion of vegetarian families: Rajasthan (63 per cent), Haryana (62 per cent), Punjab (48 per cent), Uttar Pradesh (33 per cent), Madhya Pradesh (35 per cent) and Gujarat (45 per cent).
btw, i too have read/heard that south indians are vegetarian while north indians less so. !?!?!
My wild guess is that most south Indians in the US are brahmins/upper caste (so vegetarian), while north indians are a more mixed bunch.
A lot of what’s being talked about on this thread would constitute examples of what I call the Desi Fear of the Physical. There’s an initial high threshold to almost any activity that requires exertion. I’m not pretending to understand it or explain it, but I’ve noticed it across the board. From cousins and relatives in Delhi to more local browns in my peer group, most of us really aren’t very good at or interested in anything that requires sweat, and particularly getting sweaty while making contact with another human being.
(This provides a convenient and common explanation for the family photographs, our “virginal” status (can any country of a BILLION people really be considered virginal, though?) and our lack of sporting ability in- or outside the Olympics. Cricket is hardly a full-contact sport).
having lived in a very traditional middle class home i have noticed a lot many disturbing things. one, the women always eat last and that means eating whatever is left, which, generally isnt very nutritious. then there are upteen fasts – its tuesday, devi’s day, then there’s ekadishi then there is some other thing. then there is this huge importance on vegeterian food. for these women, non-veg dishes would provide so much nutrition, but they wont touch it. more than a 50% of indian women are iron-deficient, and it plays an important role in the development of a baby. i’ve seen pregnant women doing all this. also, many indian people see sports, and even hanging out as waste of time. plus there is this allergy to sun – no one wants to be dark so, naturally you wont find many people playing out, besides ofcourse cricket.
Thanks razib, those are interesting numbers. I’m surprised at the numbers for Andhra, given that a lot of Vysyas are also vegetarians. Most brahmins in eastern/NE states are meat eaters, so the numbers for say, Orissa vs Andhra are interesting.
chinese traditionally also didn’t believe in exerting physically. the ‘body is a temple’ idea was used to justify being gentle at all times.
John Isner, who made such a splash at the US open, was beaten by Somdev Dev Verma in the NCAA finals a few months ago. SDV has decided to turn pro only after a year, once he graduates from UV. Just thought i’d throw that in the mix.
Hmm….I guess I was wrong about Gujurat being the most vegeterian…but anyway same point. Where did you read about the poor psychometric test performance? The only place where I heard of such a scenario was the widely discredited iq and the wealth of nations. Indias a difficult country to measure…i find it hard to believe that there has been any systematic study that shows such poor performance. It would be interesting to find out how much….for the average Indian, that meat consumption is related to intellectual ability and success. Of course there are millions of smart Indian vegetarians, and non-indian vegetarians. However they come mainly from the well-off side of the spectrum, so there diet probably compensates. The interesting cases are those families who are ‘opportunistic’ meat eaters, who perhaps once a week manage to get ahold of a little meat. This would disqualify them as veg, but leaves them nutritionally no better off.
Indian malnutrition is overstated. A very high percentage of 1st generation American babies born to Indian mothers are underweight, which means we are apparently in “crisis”. the tables are based on standards that shouldnt apply to Indians. Like the supposed AIDS epidemic that has since been restated, the malnutrition epidemic will eventually be modified and restated.
Well tennis has been a rare true ‘athletic’ sport in which there is at least a small tradition in India…particularly Chennai. I believe Somdev grew up in Chennai, although he is originally Assamese. There is however a difference between Isner, who has had decent success this US Open, taking a set of the mighty Federer, and Somdev. Most tennis commentators single out Isner as having a surplus of potential due to his height and serve. Somdev, being 5-11, does not have those same attributes. Personally i think he will be a successful pro who plays with plenty of speed and heart…better than Sania Mirza, but not really challenge for grand slams. Personally I disagree with most commentators in saying Isner will also fall in the same boat. College tennis success rarely translates into pro-success. Particularly for those who make the decision to stick out all four years at the college level rather than improve their game in the cauldron of pro-tennis.
As you rightly pointed out, we excel in Individual sports ( surprisingly in as vigorous a sport as tennis). It is when it comes to team games we falter,cricket and hockey being the exception.
I think we should give ourselves another 10 years. Economic prosperity is sure to bring in more parents willing to subside their childrens atheletic ambitions.Likewise, corporates will be soon jumping into the fray as cricket is pricing itself out of the market.
I can’t find the reference right now, but I have seen Indian experts denying that outright.
btw, I won’t take the rugby team’s performance too much to heart. No one, and no one, plays rugby in India. Except for a bunch of english augusts. Literally: Rahul Bose is one of the members of the current Indian rugby team.
Amber.
Why should the same standards, i’m guessing you mean height and weight, not apply to Indians? Studies have shown that given similar diets kids tend to have more or less similar growth regardless of ethnicity(ill find and post). I think your implying that there is a genetic difference between Indians and others in terms of growth potential. I have seen the Stanford study on low-birth weight Indian American babies. The conclusion that the investigators seem to draw is not that the average Indian baby is simply smaller, but that there are some maternal habits, perhaps even vegetarianism, that result in low birth weight.
Well, for the most clear example that growth is directly related to nutrition take a look at the average height of Netherlanders, which has consistently increased dramatically for this past century. I’m sure that has far more to do with changing food consumption habits than anything else. Also take a look at the difference in height between ethnically identical North and South Korea. Growth potential, to a large extent, is affected by diet and nutrition.
I just came across information on this dude called Robert Cheeke. He’s also involved with the vegan bodybuilding. Also check out this and this.
Not saying this is for everyone or this is the only/best diet required to excel in sports, but simply to provide some (counter) examples.
Reg veg/non-veg food, it is true that even the so called “non-vegetarians” in India, are practically vegetarian because roughly speaking, traditionally meat is considered a “delicacy” of sorts, part of it could be that meat is more expensive, but I think its mostly a cultural thing. So, one could argue that, practically all of India is “almost vegetarian”.
Again, reg malnutrition, even that doesn’t quite cut it in terms of relevance to the matter at hand because it is an extreme situation. What is more relevant is what percentage of the population eats food that might be considered suitable for an athlete. I think Indian food in general seems to be more designed to satisfy your taste buds while supporting a fairly healthy sustenance, and hardly to build muscle or develop physical vigor/strength. (For example a curry diet with rice as staple food can only take one so far if that what you are feeding on every lunch and dinner since you are a kid – which is precisely what makes the standard meal even in a rich family, traditionally) This means that even a middle class/rich kid, though very far from suffering malnutrition, eats nothing like what could be considered more appropriate for an athlete to develop.
(Note that I am not here to debunk indian food – On the contrary, I think its the most sophisticated cuisine as far as tingling the taste buds is concerned. its just not suitable for building physical strength in general – however, I must add that it does as good a job as any other diet as far as healthy long term survival is concerned..(I know its a very general blanket claim, but I think the essence of what it implies is very true)
One could argue that if this is true, the diaspora in the west should do better… but I guess there isn’t a statistically significant number of them yet. And also, 2nd gen might still at least partially suffer from the same cultural effects regarding diet, etc. (On an average, I do notice that ABDs tend to be in a physically better shape than people from india… and of course, the indians in the US from india, didnt suffer from any malnutrition – they just grew up eating exclusively indian food.
It’s funny that there are few (and perhaps no) female commentators on this thread, which goes to prove my point about desi women and sports 😉
I actually agree with random above. Even the Indians with the opportunity and desire(read upper middle class) to become athletes do not eat appropriately. When I think of my diet at home during my adolescent years, and most importantly during puberty where the natural incidence of growth hormone is very high, I realize now that diets of white rice, potatoes and cauliflower(im a southie) are very determental to athletic development. Perhaps the next generation of Indian Americans will eat completely americanized diets. Hopefully this will lead to improved athletic performance.
amit, the problem is that women don’t eat proper food, even pregnant ones. and, a huge number are anemic, not just iron deficient. and iron is more readily absorbed from non-vegetarian sources, specifically from red meat. lamb or goat meat would be a good alternative to beef, but must women avoid it, even more than chicken or fish. i think they percieve it as more masculine, but anyways, the point is that it is not be easy for a person to get the right amount of calcium, iron and protein from a pure veg diet. it needs quite a lot of planning.
Ennis,
Actually I think you are being a bit unfair. I would guess that desi girls in America participate, at least at the youth level, to a similar extant to boys. Just look at the number of indian girls that play top-level junior tennis, for example. I think the situation is far different than in the UK. Bend it like Beckham never really applied to Indian Americans.
Ennis – desi women like sport – no more and no less than women from other parts of the world. Your comment about not getting laid if you are a sportsman is incorrect. Sports meets at all levels are hotbeds of sexual activity. Even when the Postal Games are held, action off the fields is quite high.
not to self. play sports
Lots of talk about meat. What about fish. Does that make a difference?