A slightly Anonymous Tipster operating via the chimney which is our News tab gifted me with a robust cup of breakfast-reading which perked me right up.
How’s that for two utterly unrelated metaphors? Huh? Yeeeah, boyee.
Now you are surely not asking, “what got you all twitchy and agitated, Anna?”, but I am going to gift you with an answer anyway! I’m hyper thanks to the latest advice column from Cary Tennis, which is published at Salon.
Today’s edition of Cary-wisdom is inspired by a letter writer (LW) who can be neatly summed up by the title of the column:
I don’t want to be a doctor!
Fair enough, LW. A good number of us did or didn’t, but I want to know more about you, even as part of me groans, knowing I will regret it and get all uber-bitch on your ass by the end of this.
Aug. 28, 2007 | Dear Cary,
I am 20 years old, go to a state university, and am severely confused on what I want to do in life.
When I was little, I wanted to be an “artist.” With the beret, paintbrushes and canvas. Then, I moved on. Sure, I loved art, and enjoyed it, and was good at it, but I realized I wasn’t exceptionally creative in that sense. So I wanted to be a journalist. That idea left as soon as it entered my mind in high school. Then, toward the lag end of high school, I got interested in becoming a doctor. It wasn’t out of some desire I had to cure the world or make lots of money. It was because of my parents.
My parents and my family are from the Indian subcontinent and are Muslim. In their minds, the best thing to be is a professional. Especially a doctor. My father always tells me that I should be a doctor to help people and to be independent. My dad works away from home and flies back to my family every three to four weeks. It’s a hard life for him, because he misses out on our lives. It’s important to him that I become independent and have the ability to work wherever I want to. So, in high school, I took some medical classes. I enjoyed them; they weren’t my favorite classes, but they were, I suppose, “all right.”
When I started applying for university, for my possible majors, I would alternate between political science and English. My mother would ask me to write “pre-medicine” next to the others. Therefore, when I got accepted, I was put into the pre-professional advising. I never truly desired to become a doctor. The only reason I wanted to become one was to help people. To fix them. So I kept going. I took biology, chemistry, bioethics.
Then, my sophomore year, last year, I fell apart. I took physics and organic chemistry. I was doing terribly in both. I made a 48 on my first exam in physics and a 63 in organic. I had to decide whether or not to drop physics. I eventually did, and I was so disappointed in myself. You see, I did well in high school. I took many Advanced Placement classes, made A’s, and was an excellent student. And I got burnt out. I just couldn’t force myself to work. I tried, but it wasn’t enough. I didn’t care enough. So I eventually made a C in organic.
It was during this semester that I would get these sort of panic attacks. I would just cry and cry when thinking about how badly I was doing in life, in organic, in everything. This is what really scared me the most. I always prided myself on not stressing out, not freaking out, and doing well in what I was studying for. But here was a class that just broke me down into tears. I couldn’t study when I was like that.
Then, the spring semester began. I took the second part of organic. Struggled through it and was averaging a C in the class. Then I fell apart again. I made a 48 on my last test, which dropped me to a D. I had to make an amazing grade on the final. I didn’t start studying for the final until the night before because I had basically given up. I failed the class with an F. In all my other classes that semester, I made A’s and B’s.
So now I don’t know what to do. I’m signed up for organic again this semester, with the same professor I failed with. I’m already freaking out about it. I don’t want to have those panic attacks again, but I can feel my heart rate getting faster just thinking about it and typing it out. I don’t think I want to be a doctor anymore. But I don’t know what else I can do. I’m majoring in English, and I enjoy writing, reading, and analyzing, but what could I do? I know I’m good at it. I’m thinking about public policy, law school, etc. Sometimes I blame my parents for, in a way, forcing me to do pre-med. It prevented me from pursuing architecture, for example. Or anything else. I know I shouldn’t blame them, but it seems so convenient.
I want to do so much with my life. I don’t want to regret anything. I want to study abroad and travel and do the Peace Corps and help people. But I need to make a decision.
What should I do, Cary? I trust your advice. I read your column and your advice is always sound. If you could help me, I would be so grateful.
Typical Confused College Student
There is this phrase in Malayalam my Father used almost daily; I wish I could recall it, so I could butcher its spelling right now. It was something to the effect of, I’ll break your bones and GIVE you something to cry about, you little twerp. Or similar. But let’s allow the sensitive Amreekan (whom I’m a huge fan of, normally, btw) to have his say, since it IS his column we are disgusting discussing.
Dear Confused College Student,
We interupt this post to raise a point of clarification: I’ve numbered the paragraphs below , so they’re easier to refer back to and pillage, no need to thank me, it’s just the kind of blogger I am.
1.) Your parents are sitting on the floor in the living room, playing with a doctor doll. The doctor doll wears a nice white lab coat. The doctor doll is good-looking and rich. The doctor doll has a whole doctor household complete with doctor grandchildren and doctor spouse, and the doctor is in a Lexus driving down the street waving to admirers. Your parents have some play money and they have piled it up next to the doctor. The pile of money is nearly as tall as the doctor.
2.) Your parents would be very upset if someone were to take the rich doctor doll away. So you must use the tactic of redirection. You must show your parents something that is just as interesting to them.
3.) You must wave a shiny lawyer in their faces. You must say, “Look, parents! Shiny, famous lawyer! Rich, famous, shiny lawyer! CNN consultant fees!”
4.) In this way, you can induce them to turn their attention from the rich doctor doll to the rich lawyer doll, without feeling that they have lost a precious dream. If all goes well, they will forget about the doctor and will soon be back on the living room floor, assembling a rich lawyer family, complete with lawyer spouse, successful lawyer children and a big expensive lawyer house filled with money to the ceiling.
5.) You would think that you could just talk to parents. But they aren’t like that. You can’t talk to them. You have to treat them like children.
6.) You, on the other hand, are fairly adult. You know what you need to do. You just have to clear some space for yourself to do it.
7.) While you’re at it, in case you are feeling alone, take a look at this article on Sound Vision. It addresses your situation almost precisely: “The child wants to be an artist; his parents want him to go to med-school and become a doctor. The child wants to be a political scientist; his parents want him to be an engineer. This clash seems to be especially prevalent in immigrant Muslim families.”
8.) And it makes one particularly encouraging observation that might be persuasive to your parents: “Muslim leaders have long complained about the lack of Muslims pursuing careers in the media.”
9.) Law is a difficult career, and it may not be exactly what you wish to pursue for your entire life. But I think you have a good shot at it and should give it a try. It can be a springboard to many other occupations, journalism and writing principally among them.
10.) Your parents are right about one thing. They know, as countless other immigrants have known, that though American society is an open place, it is not a kind, safe place. It is a place where you have to make your own way. You have to establish status for yourself. If not, you will be trampled. That’s the way it is here. So they are right to push you to acquire a profession that will afford you some protection from the vicissitudes of capitalism and individualism.
11.) Sure, you will have to change some of your educational arrangements. But you would have to do that anyway. You flunked organic!
12.) Don’t worry. It’s probably the best course you’ve ever flunked.
13.) Law is excellent training for a writer. Look at Salon’s Tim Grieve, for instance, and Glenn Greenwald. They are both lawyers. They are also powerful writers working as journalists.
14.) So drink some coffee and cancel the pre-med studies.
15.) Throw yourself into what you love best. Make yourself happy. Excel. Immerse yourself in it. Go toward what you love. Work. Graduate. Stay healthy.
16.) Keep telling your parents you’re going to law school.
17.) Then join the Peace Corps.
18.) After the Peace Corps, you’ll know what to do.
Oh, my. What struck me first about all this was how– for lack of a better word– unoriginal the dilemma is…a LOT of us have been exactly where LW is, which partially explains my sarcasm-infused title. Anyway, what follows are my thoughts on specific points Cary made (see why I numbered things?).
…….
Re: no. 3 Anyone else sick of people substituting law school for med school, as if the two are super similar? No? Just me? Meh.
As for the “famous†and “CNN consultantâ€-bit, I thought there was a glut of lawyers, who are often an ambitious, deliciously ruthless bunch (I speak fondly because like every other quondam debate dork, I almost went, you know), who will annihilate this sniveling child as if they were an amuse bouche.
…….
Re: no. 5 You can’t treat your parents like children. Not if they’re desi. Well, you can, if you enjoy the sensation of a Bata chappal as it glides upside your head, but that’s all you. Seriously though, I know I’m officially ancient because I’m indignantly offended on behalf of this kid’s parents. You know what’s awesome about being 32, though? I DON’T GIVE A SHIT.
…….
Re: no. 6 “Fairly adult†my callipygian rondure. This kid has been directed and pushed, their entire life, “guided†forcefully by parental decisions. That’s why LW can’t make an important choice—they don’t know how. Believe me, I speak from experience, after being raised by an over-protective Father who chose MY major for me, as well.
The one thing Cary SHOULD have told LW is to take a deep breath and prepare for some harsh-but-necessary emotional growing pains. Hie thee to the student counseling office, honeychile, because you gonna need it. It’s awful and challenging, but learning how to make your own choices MUST be done…long before you mindlessly traipse off to law school or whatever else. Take it from one who knows and has the scrapes and scars to prove it.
…….
Re: no. 7 “especially prevalent in immigrant MUSLIM families (emphasis mine)�? As opposed to the obvious lack of clash in immigrant homes which religiously identify as Christian, Jewish, Sikh or Hindu? Come ON. This is not a Muslim thang. Mira, this is a BROWN thing. An IMMIGRANT thing. Really, a normal thing.
…….
Re: no. 8 I really don’t think the Muslim community needs more problems—LW can’t speak on behalf of themselves, let alone a massive world religion. One thing at a time. See: my response to number 6.
…….
Re: no. 9 STOP TELLING PEOPLE WHO DON’T KNOW WHAT TO DO TO “GO TO LAW SCHOOLâ€. This is why every lawyer I know (and I know almost a hundred), with the whopping exception of four of my friends, HATES THEIR LIFE. The Law is not an easy-way out. Respect it, don’t use it when what you really need, is a year off to backpack around Turkey or Nepal or just chill, while you figure out what you think you want to do for the foreseeable future. Taking out loans which will later encircle your ankle like a golden chain, keeping you trapped inside corporate law will not make you any happier than flunking O-Chem, LW.
My most miserable friends are the ones who regret going to law school, who work at “big firmsâ€, who wake up to find hair on their pillow, because it’s falling out, who have ulcers and budding substance abuse problems. I find the “Oh, well…if I can’t figure out what to do, I’ll just go to law school!â€-attitude offensive, because I really love the law. One of my friends who is a medical resident said something to the effect of, “Be damned sure this is what you want to do, because it’s not worth the sacrifices unless it’s what you love.†Um, yeah. That goes for everything, because just about everything requires sacrifice, if you want to achieve success.
…….
Re: no. 10 Your parents are right about plenty of things, LW. I started to grok this around age 23. Don’t get it twisted— you, LW, and I, will NEVER know what manner of struggle our parents survived, as new immigrants to this foreign place. There was no internet to utilize as a resource for information, and if they came here in the late 60s, early 70s, there was no community to cushion their landing, either. My mother didn’t know that Oklahoma would get cold in the winter, so she didn’t have a proper coat. She shivered until she could save enough to afford one. My father, who was worried that everything had some meat byproduct in it, unless he cooked it, was a borderline manorexic.
Your parents suffered, too. It made them fierce and strong and it taught them ridiculously valuable lessons about life, which they are using to guide you because they love you more than anyone else will and want to see you thrive. I could never pick up at 21 and move to a totally different country, where I didn’t have a single family member and knew nothing about the local culture, and build a life for myself. I can’t do that at age 32. But my mother did it, when she was more than a decade younger than me. And I worship the ground she treads on, because of it. When I’m not swearing in two languages in her long-suffering, tolerant presence, that is. My point is, your parents, more often than not, unless they are advocating extreme things like forced marriage, are right.
…….
Re: no. 11 You know what I wish Cary had said at this point? What I wish the dean at the College of Letters and Sciences had said to me, when as a miserable Freshman, I said that I hated my major and wanted to transfer schools, but didn’t know what to do, since I was a sheltered, barely-18-year old. Here’s what the dean said:
“College is tough, but at least your parents are paying for it…you’ll be fine. Political Science can be fun! And much more useful than South Asian Studies, which you’d have to go to Berkeley for…â€
Here’s what I wish he said:
“There are these amazing resources called pell grants and student loans—if you’re concerned about the financial implications of standing up to your parents, head to the financial aid office and see what your options are.â€
If this kid is worried about getting cut off financially, there is no better country in which that could happen. Especially if you’re at a state school, which is cheaper than a private one.
…….
Re: no 13 (and now I have the Pixies in my head, 🙂 …Law is excellent training for a lot of things, but as my embittered ivy-league JD/MBA ex-bf reminded me, ad nauseum, when he got home from work every morning at 1:30 am from his “big†Manhattan firm, for his five hours of restless sleep, IT IS NOT REQUIRED IN ORDER TO BECOME A WRITER.
…….
Re: no 15 Yes. Do what you love. If you are passionate about something, you will give up jealous boyfriends, reading for pleasure and half of your social life for it, even when you don’t get paid. LW, once you find something which fulfills you to the point where you can’t imagine NOT doing it, you’ll be all right. College, where you can have a range of different experiences and the opportunity to sample so many classes, is an excellent place to start the process through which you uncover your bliss. 🙂
…….
Re: no 16 Sigh.
…….
Re: no 18 Maybe. Sometimes, that sort of experience/perspective-gathering/kick in the kundi is exactly what we need.
…….
What do you think (like I need to ask)?
Dear Typical Confused College Student, Just cause you’re hung like a moose doesn’t mean you gotta do porn.
Sincerely, Kumar.
Ah, the age-old story of parental expectations rubbing up against youthful, inchoate dreams.
First, this kid does need to turn to a support system. Maybe a college counsellor, maybe a friendly professor who’s on his side. No matter what else he decides to do, he clearly doesn’t want to be a doctor, not under these circumstances. He needs to figure out how to tweak that major so that he can take the classes he’s interested in and start looking for internships/fellowships in this possible field. Then, when he has a sorta plan ( and like Anna, I definitely advise looking into alternate financial support as a back-up), he can discuss/inform the parents. Mainly I think kids and parents in this position tend to worry themselves into a corner ( ” I/You need to know NOW what you’re going to be doing for the rest of your life!”) The way things go these days, that iron rice-bowl thing is over.
Or I guess he could do what I did and confuse the parents about his major until he’s right about to graduate ( ” Oh, those English courses are neccessary for the socio-politico-cultural implications of practising medicine. And writing clear prescriptions”).
That’s funny about how being a lawyer is supposed to satisfy your writing jones. My parents tried to half-heartedly persuade me that as a doctore I would still get to write. You know, reports, medical articles, prescriptions.
MN, totally disagree. I think you’re projecting backwards on the history of the U.S. economy. While a college education was certainly not required even 20 years ago, the returns to education between college and grad school have increased. The economy as a whole is becoming more high skills oriented. You don’t need a college education, but even those entrepreneurs who’ve made it tended to come from relatively stable/affluent backgrounds or were deeply connected in other ways. I don’t think sheer creativity and risk can help someone in the system. That said, I agree that a higher education by itself cannot trump work ethic, dynamism, hard work, etc. I do think the contemporary economy requires both.
sorry, haven’t read the comments yet, but here’s my few paise :
3 – seriously – law was the only thing he could think to tell this guy (i hear you, ANNA)? he didn’t even mention anything nearly related to law in his other interests! also, it just perpetuates the i-don’t-know-what-else-i-can-do-but-i-want-to-make-money reason that belongs to half of the law students out there. also, the problem with trying to convince your parents about the law is that you have to show them all the highest potential that exists for a lawyer – $125,000 to start! partner in 8-10 years if i have no life! CNN consulting fees! if you end up convincing them of all that, you actually have the replacement pressure of achieving exactly those goals – nothing less. i’ve been there (i still am) and it sucks…
9 – how does this dude know that the writer will be a good lawyer? i would highly advise going straight to the profession in which you have interest, rather than choosing the round about law school path – wtf?
so do i, but if i really knew how hard it was going to be, i would have thought tens times about it. like the confused college student, i had an academic crisis in college, and then another one in law school, to the extent that i went through all the paper work to drop out. for a kid who is having some serious issues, law school is far from a cure-all.
This is sad but true to some extent. It a result of “safe” and “secure” mentality seeping into the broader populace, goaded by the college salesmen. High-tech skill set, combined with an increasingly globalised competitive work force have made college education a must-have. I don’t have a problem with this as long as risk taking abilities do not take a hit in the process…
M. Nam
shalu @ 17 – i didn’t catch that…still, he seemed more interested in other things, so i still find it odd that cary chose one thing and pushed it…
Word. He was all over the place…which is why I guessed that he was falling in to the typical, “What to do? Oh! LAW!”-mindset which would only add three years of heartache and $100k in loans to this quagmire.
LW needs to breathe and get help, for his own sake. If you’re having panic attacks in college, what’s going to happen when your life gets exponentially more difficult? Handle that shit, first. Panic and anxiety attacks are horrific, no one should suffer through them when they may not have to.
I know one lawyer who loves his job. Even with a few hours of sleep he is always excited about work. He works at a “big” firm but truly loves what he does. But he went to lawschool fully knowing what he was getting into.
Then there are the rest of my friends who went to law school b/c they had absolutely no idea what they wanted to do when they grew up. Law sounded good. Presitigious, right? Lots of money, right? (ha ha ha — let’s just call it middle class insurance). Almost none of them practice. The lesson learned gave them a mighty hefty student loan bill. Now they don’t feel free to pursue their dreams b/c Sally-Mae is knocking on their doors.
Don’t incur student loan debt b/c you’re confused. My best advice for anyone in this situation: try different things out, do an internship, spend a year working in the industry… just don’t jump to grad school as the panacea for your problems.
This advice might go against y’all’s idealistic grains, but let’s face it, it is intensely practical and surprisingly good (generally, I find Mr. Tennis to be somewhat of a pill).
Let’s boil down what Mr. Tennis is saying –
Buy time – law school prospects in the future are a great way of buying time. I know a lot of people who say that “some day, I’ll go to law school” and keep a lot of people happy, without ever going to law school
Buy yourself a free option – prepare for law school, do whatever you want in the interim. Law school tends to accomodate that. The LW can always do what they want. In effect, it is costing the LW nothing and they can always go to law school for interest or security after seeing the world.
Keep doing what you want, now that you have bought time and option – can’t dispute that
Take the path of least resistance – why create conflict when you don’t have to
Keep your true intentions to yourself
My advice to my clients in tough negotiations is almost always some combination of 1-4 above. I tend to incorporate the same elements in personal advice as well.
As for treating parents like children, its a cold thing to say, but I don’t view it as insulting. In any negotiation, it pays to see the other side (and this is simply a negotiation) as children – it puts their problem and the solution in perspective.
I think this was incresibly practical, and easy to follow advice. Good for Mr. Tennis.
Sriram @ #1 said:
Word. That’s one thing I got from my mother, and I agree wholeheartedly. This whole “your job is supposed to be your vocation, your calling in life” idea is bollocks that causes unnecessary despair for people. (Much like the “your spouse is supposed to be your best friend/hot lover/babymama(daddy)/counselor/healer/everything” idea, but I digress.)
When people were hunter/gatherers do you think they were passionate about hunting and gathering? No, they were like, “Damn, I’m hungry. Sure is nice next to this fire under the pelt with my cavewoman here. But damn, I’m hungry, and the kids are getting on my nerves with their hunger pangs, so I better go hunt, or at least gather.” Likewise, farmers. We, here in post-modern urban civilization, may wax poetic about the farming life, the mud between our toes and crapping in the fields, but go ask a farmer how much s/he loves waking up at the crack of dawn to till some fields.
You want to eat? You got to work. Simple. Sometimes you’ll hate it less than other times, but you still have to do it.
Floridian @ #43, thanks for sharing your touching story. I sort of lucked out in that my dad was the one whose dad pressured him to become a doctor. He failed three times before changing his major to education (back at Khalsa College, Amritsar), so he was determined not to follow suit with his kids. And my mom is trusting to the point of naivety. Although I got some pressure to study medicine or law or computers, my parents trusted me to make my own decisions. My dad still likes to complain, when success doesn’t at his pace, the he “never should have let me” study literature, but there’s no way he could have stopped me. I would have gone to the state school if I hadn’t been able to find a way to afford the college I did go to. That last bit may sound like I’m ungrateful, but I’m not. I’m so very grateful for the support I’ve had, but I did often have to fight for it, and it still gets lorded over me sometimes.
I can’t tell you how many crap manuscripts crossed my desk when I was a literary agent with something to the effect of “I wanted to be a writer all my life but I’ve been too busy with my law practice these last 40 years. I just retired and now I finally have the time to write.” in the cover letter. They were always crap. Without fail. Seriously.
Ain’t that the truth. With mine, if you give ’em one inch, they want two inches. You give ’em two inches, they want four. Give my mom a rope and she wants to be a cowboy. But seriously, if you live your life trying to please others, not only will you fail to please them, you’ll fail to please yourself, too. (Except maybe at night, with the lights off and the curtains drawn, under a fort made of pillows and sheets, just you and your dirty sock…)
Chicagodesidiva–my sister is a psychologist in Chicago, but she doesn’t work with the desi community. Well, not formally, at least. Runa @ #41, I agree with HMF’s comment following yours. I realize this may be the opposite of reassuring for you, but my girlfriend is a high school dropout who just got her PhD. And when she plays doctor, she plays to win.
My question for Cary Tennis is “What courses should I take in my masters program so I can grow up and become a jackass advice columnist?“
runa, my dad pushes this theory on me – that my academic choices are the most importaant thing – but that never happened with him. he studied for years to become an engineer, and after having worked for about 10 years as one, he grabbed an opportunity that came his way for the money. his business is in no way related to his engineering background, which all leads me to believe that in the end, it is individual drive that counts the most, not the industry per se. interestingly, his own daughter (moi) might end up following his exact path, prob. to his chagrin.
i wouldn’t worry too much about your son – i’m sure he’ll find his way eventually. like you, my dad is worried about leaving his kids some financial insurance, but i think the biggest advantage of having parents who struggled financially is that they are in the position to provide their kids with a strong foundation – better schools (sometimes) and emotional support. i think this is far more valuable than giving your kids a trust fund (no matter how big or small).
Thank you Anna for a great post.
I don’t think ABDs should belittle our own difficulties, however, when comparing them to those of our parents. My parents own identities were formed before they reached America. Even though they came with $20 in their pocket and no support base, they had a really solid sense of who they were. That they were educated, Gujarati, upper caste, etc. Though I had far more material comforts than they did as children, coming to grips with growing up brown in Mobile, Alabama was extremely difficult. My parents couldn’t fathom what I was going through even though I tried to tell them and they are thoughtful people. We shouldn’t diminish our own struggles vis-a-vis our parents. I hear that all the time from the parents and the children. We have faced different kinds of problems.
One thing I have learned to do which has gotten good feedback is to scare fresh-faced 18-year-olds into NOT joining engineering (substitute law/medicine/business if needed). I jump straight into bleeding details of math, physics, computer code, abstract concepts and the peculiar sense of bad humor shared by engineers, physicists and computer scientists, nearly always making fun of mathematicians. Basically I make a sales pitch like a caricature of a nerd who is totally happy to be a caricature of a nerd. That scares away everybody who is not serious about engineering into whatever they really want to do. I recently did this caricature exhibition to the parents of a college-entering kid. I suspect that the pressure dropped on him a lot after they saw what engineers really are like. But the ones who stay, they fit into the culture really well and are happy with their work.
I suppose this could be done for caricatures of doctors as well. Issue surgical instructions on a cell phone from the golf course maybe? “Cut into the left ventricle. With a scalpel. No, your other left!”. That ought to scare anybody who’s not committed.
true, though i do agree with hari that part of the law school advice had to do with satisfying his parents and buying some time. but seeing as how this kid is in such a vulnerable position, he might unconsciously replace his parents’ push for med school with a (perceived) push for law school from cary – he seems to want freedom and guidance, and the repetition of law = good career was not necessarily sound.
re panic attacks – i wish he had written this exact same question to ‘ask e. jean’ in elle – she would have addressed the mental. emotional, and career aspects in her oh-so unique way 😉
ak, Thanks for the kind words. Luckily(?) , my son is not shy at all about letting us know if I am overdoing the nagging 🙂 .I hope we can always have that kind of open communication.
I am learning – as always – a lot from this thread! I don’t know if the Mutineers have heard this before but SM is my best resource when this DBD gets puzzled by this wonderful country called Amreeka 🙂
But parents are often very different when you’re 25 and look and act like an adult, than when you’re 20 and their ward. Assuming the LW wants to avoid the conflict with their parents, they may be best off deferring the conflict until later. I’ve always had a wonderful relationship with my parents and part of it could have been deferring issues that may have upset them earlier (like skipping graduate school) until I had made my way in the world somewhat, and could deal with them as an adult.
Does she wear a denim saree as well? 😀
I dont think most lawyers hate their jobs.
someone should do a survey. i know lawyer have higher divorce rates that doctors for instance. and my own personal exp. is that most people who went to law school didn’t end up being satisfied (the ones who realized law wasn’t their thing ended up with large debt loads that they had difficulty servicing).
whereas grad students in the humanities/social sciences were always just one paycheck away from destitution. That’s not to say that the kid in question should go on to grad school in the sciences; simply that he/she should be aware that grad school in the humanities might be a little challenging financially.
yeah, i agree shaad. my only point is that professional schools like law or medicine (or business school) entail a lot more debt by necessity than graduate schools where you can defray the costs via stuff like TAing. grad students in the non-natural sciences might be on the verge of being destitute, but they can always make recourse to taking up debt via loans if it they are that hard up. additionally, i really don’t see how going to law school would make you a better journalist or a writer as opposed to doing graduate work in english or history unless you are going to specializing in legal areas.
Anecdotal. The most cogent and elegant writers I have read (non-professionals) have been lawyers. All of these individuals, however, no longer practice the law.
Why the mention of caste?
Anna, very thought-provoking post, thank you. I might go against the grain a little on this one.
Engineering, Law and Medicine are professions. They are things that someone with above average intelligence, a bit of aptitude, the desire to work hard, and some luck, can get good enough at, to get a good job, and perhaps a career. Let’s not confuse them with a vocation or calling or doing ‘what you really are’. The job is something which, (after some time) will give you the ability to afford to spend some time doing ‘what you like doing’. By this I want to emphasize – the same amount of intelligence and aptitude that helps you be a competent engineer or lawyer – will not help you become a good physicist or a good writer. Success in these things demands creative abilities of another order altogether – and a huge amount of luck – to be even modestly successful.
And, as an engineer, a lawyer or a doctor – you could work for yourself, and you could work in areas that give you other kinds of satisfaction – e.g. environmental law, or community medicine or etc. Just don’t think you can do it the minute you graduate from professional school.
If you can use words well enough to write a readable essay in junior high, you can eventually do the work that you need to become a lawyer, and likewise for engineering and algebra in junior high; or medicine and junior biology. Let’s not confuse that with rocket science or being a nerd either. A well-rounded person and an engineer are not contradictions, need not be, and likewise with the other professions.
That’s just because doctors have the added hurdle of needing to hire a lawyer in order to get a divorce. Lawyers can just diy. Cut out the middleman!
I know a lot of people here find law/lawyers to be boring and unexciting but let me present the other side. A lot of the law is adversarial and there is no greater thrill than winning one for your client. Its really that simple, you win and the other party loses. It gives you a great rush similar to shooting a winning basket in the dying seconds and you get to feel that rush every time you win. In the first year of practice, even winning on a technicality makes your head spin and you are inflicted with giddiness for the rest of the week. Walking into the Courtroom armed with smug knowledge about your killer oral argument or the sweaty palms you get while the other lawyer directs and you wait to tear apart that lying snivelling SOB witness on cross is not excitement you can match without paying for it. I do understand that a lot of the law is procedural and its hours researching cases and conflicts which drag on for years and that can get tedious but every profession has its tedious parts. For people who like competition, apart from competitive sports, there is no better profession than law.
The most cogent and elegant writers I have read (non-professionals) have been lawyers.
but do you think law school was what make them more cogent or elegant writers? or that they already had high verbal aptitudes and law schools select out of that subset? in any case, i don’t really think that post-graduate education is necessary if you want to be a journalist or writer in any case; today it is more of a “signaler”?
I remember, back in the day when I had other career ambitions and was taking Physics and Chemistry and my mother’s friends trying to get me to do Biology “so you can get into pre-med, beta” …
Poor kid, I was lucky not to have the pressure from Mum (who was a little bit unhappy but thought it best not to say anything), but I won’t ever forget the struggles I had with my older brother (and only sibling) when I told him that I wanted to work in the theatre and worse still, be a playwright (how much money does that make (very quickly followed by), how will you support yourself, don’t you want to live comfortably, can’t you just do it as a hobby etc). And hey, although I though he was completely against it, he flew in from overseas to surprise me on my opening night of my very first production. It’s taken the best part of nine or so years now, but he’s come around, as have all of the aunts and uncles (it helped that the other Indian in the industry was very successful – so it became a viable career option). Now they all ask when my next show is and keep telling me about theatre jobs I should go for. People are less resistant thank you think.
I’ve also become the handy novelty discussion point in a room full of lawyer and doctor friends.
lawyers are unhappy: http://www.nd.edu/~ndmag/legl2f99.htm Lawyers suffer from depression, anxiety, hostility, paranoia, social alienation and isolation, obsessive-compulsiveness, and interpersonal sensitivity at alarming rates. For example, researchers affiliated with Johns Hopkins University found statistically significant elevations of major depressive disorder (AMDD@) in only three of 104 occupations: lawyers, pre-kindergarten and special education teachers, and secretaries. Lawyers topped the list, suffering from MDD at a rate 3.6 times higher than nonlawyers who shared their key socio-demographic traits.
Lawyers also suffer from alcoholism and use illegal drugs at rates far higher than nonlawyers. One group of researchers found that the rate of alcoholism among lawyers is double the rate of alcoholism among adults generally, while another group of researchers estimated that 26 percent of lawyers had used cocaine at least once C twice the rate of the general population. One out of three lawyers suffers from clinical depression, alcoholism or drug abuse. Not surprisingly, a preliminary study indicates that lawyers commit suicide and think about committing suicide more often than nonlawyers.
I don’t think the law is a bad career choice. I’m of the belief that you should do what you love and the money will follow. I have plenty of friends who are social workers, making a meager salary @ a non-profit, and they’re doing more than fine. I just think there’s this fear if you don’t make a sh*t load of money you are screwed.
Seems so
I just think there’s this fear if you don’t make a sh*t load of money you are screwed.
i think the major issue is keeping up with the joneses. the happiness literature tends to show that relative wealth and status are more important that absolute affluence. in brown communities there’s a lot of pressure because of the SES bias in the american 1st gen immigrant set. my father has mentioned with irritation about people always asking if we (his kids) are doctors or lawyers at parties.
Salwaar kameez, dawg. And a burlap dupatta. (Don’t ask about the rawhide chaps, though, this is my mom we’re talking about.) Yippee kai yay!
Chachaji,
I hear you. 🙂 Great addition to the dialogue.
My concern in this specific case is that LW is a fragile person who is having debilitating panic attacks as a college sophomore. My friends who are emotionally “stronger” than that are demoralized by their steep law-school-created debt, to the point of needing anti-depressants, therapy and yes, substances to abuse. I think that the last things which LW needs are:
I promise I am not being all granola-ebola and ascribing light and virtue to a “calling”, I’m trying to be pragmatic by drawing on my own scarily-parallel experiences. I enjoy my job because I love what I do. That makes my life SIGNIFICANTLY easier and it certainly helps alleviate my anxiety. If LW does some emotional heavy-lifting and explores different ideas, it will help crystallize what they are good at. If you are good at something, really good at something, even nasty, unenlightened, curmudgeon-like desi parents who “like, so don’t understand ANYTHING” are known to be all, “Good for you, beta”.
i think the major issue is keeping up with the joneses. the happiness literature tends to show that relative wealth and status are more important that absolute affluence.
Good point.
Yeah definitely a good point about the Joneses. I hope that LW doesn’t fall into the velvet handcuff trap.
Hmm, what does ‘doing what you are really are’ mean exactly? Does there have to be this dichotomy between “vocation†and “professionâ€? I’m in a mainstream profession – consulting – and I love what I do. I’d very likely continue to do it if I won a lottery tomorrow. Sure, I moan about hours that can sometimes be long, heavy travel, wish I could have six weeks of vacation instead of three, wish I could give more to charity etc etc but on balance I’m one lucky guy. And I work day in and day out with executives (esp. really senior ones) who seem the types who’ll pay to do the job. We’re the lucky few, but we’re out there.
What I told my dad: “If you want a doctor in the family start studying, because it is NOT going to be me.”
(My mom’s response, later, (read in the tension/anger): “Well, maybe you should go to law school. Because you like to argue.”)
And this was years before I decided to go to law school.
Neale, the reason I mentioned my parents upper caste identity is that I think it helped them make their way in America as immigrants. They “knew” they were elite Brahmins. They had a sense of entitlement even though they were brown-skinned immigrants. When I grew up, my upper caste background didn’t do much for me. It was just ironic. I was a brown person in a profoundly racist society, and not even a brown person from a group of people with an established anti-racist rhetoric or set of institutions adapted to my needs.
Why are/were you expecting caste to do anything for you??
GreenDaddy, my parents too were Gujurati, educated and from middle-class families, only difference is that we are not Brahmins. I always thought they made their way in America as immigrants through their hard work, their determination, their ability to adapt and willingness to try new things and finally having each other to depend on.
I find it interesting that you think their caste has helped them with their success and not what they actually did while they were here. Because when our parents arrived, no one here gave a shit what their caste was, they were just some brown people from an exotic country.
hari @ 66 – i don’t disagree that the dynamics in the parent-child relationship change. but some parents dont change, and while some parents change in some ways, they might be steadfast in others – e.g. they might become more liberal with his social ways, but make no change re his career. that point is even more possible when they have pushed him for so many years in medicine (because it’s professional) – replacing it with another profession and repeating that as he buys time might be even more detrimental. in my personal case, i am quoting what i wrote above :
i am not saying this kid is fucked, or his parents won’t ever change or accept his doubts when he finally tells them – i am just saying that cary’s advice (without knowing his parents, and therefore without laying out all the possible ways it could go wrong) was not right for this kid in this particulary vulnerable circumstance.
anecdote from nassim taleb’s fooled by randomness:
“psychologists have shown that most people prefer to make $70,000 when others around them are making $60,000 than to make $80,000 when others around them are making $90,000.”
“psychologists have shown that most people prefer to make $70,000 when others around them are making $60,000 than to make $80,000 when others around them are making $90,000.”
there’s a long line of empirical economic research which corroborates this finding. we care what other people think about us and we always try to signal and show how cool and superior we are relative to others. no surprise. most materialism isn’t about improving quality of life, it’s about showing that you can purchase more quality than a neighbor. the marginal returns on a $20 vs $200 bottle of whine aren’t an order of magnitude 😉
I hate it when they do that, it’s horrible reasoning.
But for my two cents I would like to offer that I just turned down a free ride to law school, and it was the easiest decision I’ve ever made. Though I do think it’s a great profession, students should go in with conviction, or at the very least an inkling of certainty. I knew I didn’t want it and I am back working on my resume and pumping gas.
RH@38:
Does a PA make a good packet too? Enough to be reckoned upper middle class?
This is why I love SM. I come across new phrases and expressions everyday.
But seriously, I would like to state that there are people who are naturals at certain things. I mean that they are way beyond intuitive: they just KNOW the answer! And those people are often the ones who ENJOY their profession the most, the one to whom it is more than just another job to help pay the bills. Unfortunately it is hard to find these people among the many who choose a certain profession because it pays well, not to mention that the general unhappiness level rises with a mismatch. A practising doctor may not remember much of his/her organic chemistry, but as long as they get results (or don’t screw up) nobody really cares. That does not guarantee that the process of becoming a doctor is painfree if you’re allergic to organic chemistry – if the education involves a lot of things you don’t like, it may save you a lot of grief if someone scared you away earlier by showing lots of that stuff so you can spend your time on better things.
93 · P.G. Wodehouse Does a PA make a good packet too? Enough to be reckoned upper middle class?
FWIW, according to Fussell (in “Class”) dentists are middle-class, and surgeons “may” be upper-middle class. His criteria seem more stringent than most people seem to use–not entirely sure if it’s some kind of elaborate joke,or if he’s on to something.
If following ones dream is hard in an ABD environment, it is doubly hard in a DBD situation. I had to resort to Gandhian tactics (a fast and vow of silence) before I was allowed to take subjects of my choice after Class X. I had another huge battle when I wanted to study in a mixed college ( men and women) rather than a purely male environment. Schooling was in an all boys Catholic environment 🙁 I was written off as a loser for several years.
My advice to the confused fellow would be ‘ stop school and go into the workforce far away for a couple of years’. Even better – teach English in a Third World country with no desis. This will certainly open his mind. This will provide freedom from the parental cage enabling personal development. I bet that the parents will support this move provided that they know it is just for a couple of years.
Floridians parents are a rare breed.
And there are also some of us who, although I didn’t always see it this way, “luck out” and have a parent who is not a businessperson, doctor, lawyer, scientist, professor or degreed professional. It’s kind of hard to tell your kid to buck up and suffer through some discipline that they clearly are not loving when you yourself were a proto-alternadesi.
I went from a molecular biology major…to international studies…to polysci and history…and back to history without my mother or step-father so much as raising a finger in protest. I had the privilege of spending hours upon hours on exhaustively researched papers which my parents would politely read and then hand back with smile–not necessarily ‘understanding’ whatever far-fetched analysis I had extrapolated upon to reach an equally far-fetched conclusion–which proved, to me, that they did understand what college was all about.
Now i work in what I would consider my ideal field–something I would describe as Jeopardy on a Bhut Jolokia tip with a side of legal-lite salad.
I wish LW had the same support and understanding from his/her parents.
In reading the plea from the confused kid, I was reminded of my own recent experiences.
In the early 1980s, my parents came over from Kerala as kids in their early 20s, alone, and moved to Dallas. I was their first-born, and from the get-go, my father had dropped the subtle become-a-doctor hints– at nighttime prayer (Catholic), costumes for career-dress-up-day at school, etc. So while there was always the ever-present, lingering desire on his part to have me become a doctor, with it came a sense of security that I feel a lot of our generation has come to embrace.
With med school/ law school/ any professional school, your life-plan becomes formulaic (HS, college, grad school, hospital, retire) and there is a definite sense of comfort found in that security, of knowing what to expect and what’s coming up.
I’m not sure if the following is a trait unique to Malayalees, or Indians of all sorts, but lord, when the aunties and uncles would socialize at whatever gathering, topics turned quickly to academics. “Monappi, what do you want to do in college?” –“Oh, I want to be a doctor, aunty” –“Ah, good, moneh!” I figure stereotypes run true for the majority of the Malayalee community, at least in Dallas, and I’m sure it extends to all communities, everywhere– doctor, lawyer, engineer.
And so through HS and my first year of college, I had lived (so to speak) as an on-track pre-med kid. But ever since HS, I had a desire to get involved in graphic design. But I trudged through pre-med Bio. It wasn’t until midway through my sophomore year @ Notre Dame that I finally made the switch from pre-med to design. My heart wasn’t in pre-med, and I knew I wasn’t majoring in Biology for me– it was for my parents and for those Malayalee uncles and aunties at gatherings.
I spoke with a host of friends and teachers about a change in majors. I knew deep down that I didn’t want to wake up in my 30s and regret not taking that other fork in the road. Heck, I had already made a big enough change as a Malayalee by going out of state to that unheard of Catholic university and not attending UT, UT-Arlington, or UT-Dallas– and I knew but a semi-handful of Indian art majors.
I told my parents that I wanted to change majors, that I didn’t want to become a doctor. My mother was fine– she just wanted her baby to be happy. My father gave me the silent treatment for a few days, but you know what? He got over it, and although I won’t be a doctor, I know he’s alright.
I just graduated this past May, and after some summer work at a camp, I’m back home looking for jobs. While the security in knowing exactly what you have in front of you was nice, I do enjoy having an element of freedom and not-knowing.
LW needs to admit to himself that he wants a change, that he’ll be okay in another profession, and go about slaying that dragon of his by breaking the news to his parents. It will be awkward at first, but it’s a lot better letting it out than bottling it up.
The world needs good people in all areas— you don’t have to be a doctor. Yes, it’s a whole lot easier going with the flow and having that security of knowing your life plan to the tee. But the bottom line is you should be happy with what you are and what you are doing.
In regards to post 95: To be considered upper middle class you must have a net worth of 250,000 dollars (not including your home)
Every job or career entails a definable skill, or a skill set, but the skill quotient differs from job to job. A doctor’s job may be 100% skill driven, a business manager’s job may contain only 50% definable skill (knowledge of marketing, finance, construction, etc.) and 50% leadership ability. A salesman’s job may be 70% definable skill (product knowledge, ability to present, write proposals) and 30% ability to befriend people. Obviously, leadership and friendliness are skills, too, though intangible and immeasurable.
The monetary rewards for measurable skills are certain. Hence law, medicine, pharmacy and IT are safe bets. The monetary rewards for intangible skills are absolutely random. But even in the most skill driven professions, the biggest paychecks go to people with the most intangible assets. Doctors who are selected to head programs in the hospitals, professors who make chair, IT professionals who make team leaders, marketing pros who graduate from product management to managing people, engineers who move up from their CAD stations to join product development teams are sometimes dismissed as professional lightweights who were only good with people. But that’s the ultimate skill, and the best way to get ahead.
The best advice is to first acquire a definable, measurable and rewardable skill. Then go to work on developing people skills. It is a potent combination.