A slightly Anonymous Tipster operating via the chimney which is our News tab gifted me with a robust cup of breakfast-reading which perked me right up.
How’s that for two utterly unrelated metaphors? Huh? Yeeeah, boyee.
Now you are surely not asking, “what got you all twitchy and agitated, Anna?”, but I am going to gift you with an answer anyway! I’m hyper thanks to the latest advice column from Cary Tennis, which is published at Salon.
Today’s edition of Cary-wisdom is inspired by a letter writer (LW) who can be neatly summed up by the title of the column:
I don’t want to be a doctor!
Fair enough, LW. A good number of us did or didn’t, but I want to know more about you, even as part of me groans, knowing I will regret it and get all uber-bitch on your ass by the end of this.
Aug. 28, 2007 | Dear Cary,
I am 20 years old, go to a state university, and am severely confused on what I want to do in life.
When I was little, I wanted to be an “artist.” With the beret, paintbrushes and canvas. Then, I moved on. Sure, I loved art, and enjoyed it, and was good at it, but I realized I wasn’t exceptionally creative in that sense. So I wanted to be a journalist. That idea left as soon as it entered my mind in high school. Then, toward the lag end of high school, I got interested in becoming a doctor. It wasn’t out of some desire I had to cure the world or make lots of money. It was because of my parents.
My parents and my family are from the Indian subcontinent and are Muslim. In their minds, the best thing to be is a professional. Especially a doctor. My father always tells me that I should be a doctor to help people and to be independent. My dad works away from home and flies back to my family every three to four weeks. It’s a hard life for him, because he misses out on our lives. It’s important to him that I become independent and have the ability to work wherever I want to. So, in high school, I took some medical classes. I enjoyed them; they weren’t my favorite classes, but they were, I suppose, “all right.”
When I started applying for university, for my possible majors, I would alternate between political science and English. My mother would ask me to write “pre-medicine” next to the others. Therefore, when I got accepted, I was put into the pre-professional advising. I never truly desired to become a doctor. The only reason I wanted to become one was to help people. To fix them. So I kept going. I took biology, chemistry, bioethics.
Then, my sophomore year, last year, I fell apart. I took physics and organic chemistry. I was doing terribly in both. I made a 48 on my first exam in physics and a 63 in organic. I had to decide whether or not to drop physics. I eventually did, and I was so disappointed in myself. You see, I did well in high school. I took many Advanced Placement classes, made A’s, and was an excellent student. And I got burnt out. I just couldn’t force myself to work. I tried, but it wasn’t enough. I didn’t care enough. So I eventually made a C in organic.
It was during this semester that I would get these sort of panic attacks. I would just cry and cry when thinking about how badly I was doing in life, in organic, in everything. This is what really scared me the most. I always prided myself on not stressing out, not freaking out, and doing well in what I was studying for. But here was a class that just broke me down into tears. I couldn’t study when I was like that.
Then, the spring semester began. I took the second part of organic. Struggled through it and was averaging a C in the class. Then I fell apart again. I made a 48 on my last test, which dropped me to a D. I had to make an amazing grade on the final. I didn’t start studying for the final until the night before because I had basically given up. I failed the class with an F. In all my other classes that semester, I made A’s and B’s.
So now I don’t know what to do. I’m signed up for organic again this semester, with the same professor I failed with. I’m already freaking out about it. I don’t want to have those panic attacks again, but I can feel my heart rate getting faster just thinking about it and typing it out. I don’t think I want to be a doctor anymore. But I don’t know what else I can do. I’m majoring in English, and I enjoy writing, reading, and analyzing, but what could I do? I know I’m good at it. I’m thinking about public policy, law school, etc. Sometimes I blame my parents for, in a way, forcing me to do pre-med. It prevented me from pursuing architecture, for example. Or anything else. I know I shouldn’t blame them, but it seems so convenient.
I want to do so much with my life. I don’t want to regret anything. I want to study abroad and travel and do the Peace Corps and help people. But I need to make a decision.
What should I do, Cary? I trust your advice. I read your column and your advice is always sound. If you could help me, I would be so grateful.
Typical Confused College Student
There is this phrase in Malayalam my Father used almost daily; I wish I could recall it, so I could butcher its spelling right now. It was something to the effect of, I’ll break your bones and GIVE you something to cry about, you little twerp. Or similar. But let’s allow the sensitive Amreekan (whom I’m a huge fan of, normally, btw) to have his say, since it IS his column we are disgusting discussing.
Dear Confused College Student,
We interupt this post to raise a point of clarification: I’ve numbered the paragraphs below , so they’re easier to refer back to and pillage, no need to thank me, it’s just the kind of blogger I am.
1.) Your parents are sitting on the floor in the living room, playing with a doctor doll. The doctor doll wears a nice white lab coat. The doctor doll is good-looking and rich. The doctor doll has a whole doctor household complete with doctor grandchildren and doctor spouse, and the doctor is in a Lexus driving down the street waving to admirers. Your parents have some play money and they have piled it up next to the doctor. The pile of money is nearly as tall as the doctor.
2.) Your parents would be very upset if someone were to take the rich doctor doll away. So you must use the tactic of redirection. You must show your parents something that is just as interesting to them.
3.) You must wave a shiny lawyer in their faces. You must say, “Look, parents! Shiny, famous lawyer! Rich, famous, shiny lawyer! CNN consultant fees!”
4.) In this way, you can induce them to turn their attention from the rich doctor doll to the rich lawyer doll, without feeling that they have lost a precious dream. If all goes well, they will forget about the doctor and will soon be back on the living room floor, assembling a rich lawyer family, complete with lawyer spouse, successful lawyer children and a big expensive lawyer house filled with money to the ceiling.
5.) You would think that you could just talk to parents. But they aren’t like that. You can’t talk to them. You have to treat them like children.
6.) You, on the other hand, are fairly adult. You know what you need to do. You just have to clear some space for yourself to do it.
7.) While you’re at it, in case you are feeling alone, take a look at this article on Sound Vision. It addresses your situation almost precisely: “The child wants to be an artist; his parents want him to go to med-school and become a doctor. The child wants to be a political scientist; his parents want him to be an engineer. This clash seems to be especially prevalent in immigrant Muslim families.”
8.) And it makes one particularly encouraging observation that might be persuasive to your parents: “Muslim leaders have long complained about the lack of Muslims pursuing careers in the media.”
9.) Law is a difficult career, and it may not be exactly what you wish to pursue for your entire life. But I think you have a good shot at it and should give it a try. It can be a springboard to many other occupations, journalism and writing principally among them.
10.) Your parents are right about one thing. They know, as countless other immigrants have known, that though American society is an open place, it is not a kind, safe place. It is a place where you have to make your own way. You have to establish status for yourself. If not, you will be trampled. That’s the way it is here. So they are right to push you to acquire a profession that will afford you some protection from the vicissitudes of capitalism and individualism.
11.) Sure, you will have to change some of your educational arrangements. But you would have to do that anyway. You flunked organic!
12.) Don’t worry. It’s probably the best course you’ve ever flunked.
13.) Law is excellent training for a writer. Look at Salon’s Tim Grieve, for instance, and Glenn Greenwald. They are both lawyers. They are also powerful writers working as journalists.
14.) So drink some coffee and cancel the pre-med studies.
15.) Throw yourself into what you love best. Make yourself happy. Excel. Immerse yourself in it. Go toward what you love. Work. Graduate. Stay healthy.
16.) Keep telling your parents you’re going to law school.
17.) Then join the Peace Corps.
18.) After the Peace Corps, you’ll know what to do.
Oh, my. What struck me first about all this was how– for lack of a better word– unoriginal the dilemma is…a LOT of us have been exactly where LW is, which partially explains my sarcasm-infused title. Anyway, what follows are my thoughts on specific points Cary made (see why I numbered things?).
…….
Re: no. 3 Anyone else sick of people substituting law school for med school, as if the two are super similar? No? Just me? Meh.
As for the “famous†and “CNN consultantâ€-bit, I thought there was a glut of lawyers, who are often an ambitious, deliciously ruthless bunch (I speak fondly because like every other quondam debate dork, I almost went, you know), who will annihilate this sniveling child as if they were an amuse bouche.
…….
Re: no. 5 You can’t treat your parents like children. Not if they’re desi. Well, you can, if you enjoy the sensation of a Bata chappal as it glides upside your head, but that’s all you. Seriously though, I know I’m officially ancient because I’m indignantly offended on behalf of this kid’s parents. You know what’s awesome about being 32, though? I DON’T GIVE A SHIT.
…….
Re: no. 6 “Fairly adult†my callipygian rondure. This kid has been directed and pushed, their entire life, “guided†forcefully by parental decisions. That’s why LW can’t make an important choice—they don’t know how. Believe me, I speak from experience, after being raised by an over-protective Father who chose MY major for me, as well.
The one thing Cary SHOULD have told LW is to take a deep breath and prepare for some harsh-but-necessary emotional growing pains. Hie thee to the student counseling office, honeychile, because you gonna need it. It’s awful and challenging, but learning how to make your own choices MUST be done…long before you mindlessly traipse off to law school or whatever else. Take it from one who knows and has the scrapes and scars to prove it.
…….
Re: no. 7 “especially prevalent in immigrant MUSLIM families (emphasis mine)�? As opposed to the obvious lack of clash in immigrant homes which religiously identify as Christian, Jewish, Sikh or Hindu? Come ON. This is not a Muslim thang. Mira, this is a BROWN thing. An IMMIGRANT thing. Really, a normal thing.
…….
Re: no. 8 I really don’t think the Muslim community needs more problems—LW can’t speak on behalf of themselves, let alone a massive world religion. One thing at a time. See: my response to number 6.
…….
Re: no. 9 STOP TELLING PEOPLE WHO DON’T KNOW WHAT TO DO TO “GO TO LAW SCHOOLâ€. This is why every lawyer I know (and I know almost a hundred), with the whopping exception of four of my friends, HATES THEIR LIFE. The Law is not an easy-way out. Respect it, don’t use it when what you really need, is a year off to backpack around Turkey or Nepal or just chill, while you figure out what you think you want to do for the foreseeable future. Taking out loans which will later encircle your ankle like a golden chain, keeping you trapped inside corporate law will not make you any happier than flunking O-Chem, LW.
My most miserable friends are the ones who regret going to law school, who work at “big firmsâ€, who wake up to find hair on their pillow, because it’s falling out, who have ulcers and budding substance abuse problems. I find the “Oh, well…if I can’t figure out what to do, I’ll just go to law school!â€-attitude offensive, because I really love the law. One of my friends who is a medical resident said something to the effect of, “Be damned sure this is what you want to do, because it’s not worth the sacrifices unless it’s what you love.†Um, yeah. That goes for everything, because just about everything requires sacrifice, if you want to achieve success.
…….
Re: no. 10 Your parents are right about plenty of things, LW. I started to grok this around age 23. Don’t get it twisted— you, LW, and I, will NEVER know what manner of struggle our parents survived, as new immigrants to this foreign place. There was no internet to utilize as a resource for information, and if they came here in the late 60s, early 70s, there was no community to cushion their landing, either. My mother didn’t know that Oklahoma would get cold in the winter, so she didn’t have a proper coat. She shivered until she could save enough to afford one. My father, who was worried that everything had some meat byproduct in it, unless he cooked it, was a borderline manorexic.
Your parents suffered, too. It made them fierce and strong and it taught them ridiculously valuable lessons about life, which they are using to guide you because they love you more than anyone else will and want to see you thrive. I could never pick up at 21 and move to a totally different country, where I didn’t have a single family member and knew nothing about the local culture, and build a life for myself. I can’t do that at age 32. But my mother did it, when she was more than a decade younger than me. And I worship the ground she treads on, because of it. When I’m not swearing in two languages in her long-suffering, tolerant presence, that is. My point is, your parents, more often than not, unless they are advocating extreme things like forced marriage, are right.
…….
Re: no. 11 You know what I wish Cary had said at this point? What I wish the dean at the College of Letters and Sciences had said to me, when as a miserable Freshman, I said that I hated my major and wanted to transfer schools, but didn’t know what to do, since I was a sheltered, barely-18-year old. Here’s what the dean said:
“College is tough, but at least your parents are paying for it…you’ll be fine. Political Science can be fun! And much more useful than South Asian Studies, which you’d have to go to Berkeley for…â€
Here’s what I wish he said:
“There are these amazing resources called pell grants and student loans—if you’re concerned about the financial implications of standing up to your parents, head to the financial aid office and see what your options are.â€
If this kid is worried about getting cut off financially, there is no better country in which that could happen. Especially if you’re at a state school, which is cheaper than a private one.
…….
Re: no 13 (and now I have the Pixies in my head, 🙂 …Law is excellent training for a lot of things, but as my embittered ivy-league JD/MBA ex-bf reminded me, ad nauseum, when he got home from work every morning at 1:30 am from his “big†Manhattan firm, for his five hours of restless sleep, IT IS NOT REQUIRED IN ORDER TO BECOME A WRITER.
…….
Re: no 15 Yes. Do what you love. If you are passionate about something, you will give up jealous boyfriends, reading for pleasure and half of your social life for it, even when you don’t get paid. LW, once you find something which fulfills you to the point where you can’t imagine NOT doing it, you’ll be all right. College, where you can have a range of different experiences and the opportunity to sample so many classes, is an excellent place to start the process through which you uncover your bliss. 🙂
…….
Re: no 16 Sigh.
…….
Re: no 18 Maybe. Sometimes, that sort of experience/perspective-gathering/kick in the kundi is exactly what we need.
…….
What do you think (like I need to ask)?
I stand proudly as one of the four lawyers ANNA knows who does NOT hate his life and, in that capacity, agree wholeheartedly with everything she said about going to law school. In my sometimes skewed outlook, a job is a job is a job. Even if it’s something you love, it’s still just a job. It pays the bills. If you are miserable at your job because they’re something you’d rather be doing, then a) quit your job and do it (this might involve starvation), or b) get a less interesting job that leaves you time to pursue your love as a hobby (this was my path). What I don’t want to hear are complaints about how much you hate your job. I am SICK AND TIRED of friends foisting their miseries on me because they don’t have the balls or the creativity to do something interesting.
I think medical school is pretty cool, and the career prospects are pretty incredible if you take the time to super-specialize. Law school–well, you learn a lot–perhaps the mistake is thinking that the “big firm” route is the way to go–after all, you’re just the “help” there–there are plenty of smaller businesses that need (good) legal advice–so–start your own firm after a couple of years. And, of course, i-banking comes with those “chasers”! 😉
But, ultimately, there are some very smart and very successful people in just about every field–so it’s best to do something you excel at.
It’s a difficult, but all-too familiar struggle that folks deal with beyond the age of college as well. My 32 year old coworker is considering a complete change of career (going from public health to the indie music scene) after finally cutting ties with her Peruvian-born parents expectations.
So many of us suffer from the pressures not only from our parents (mine were thankfully open to my choice) but also from the community-at-large. Almost all of my Indian peers in my city went into medicine or engineering field (with a few rule benders choosing Law), and it was hard not to get swept into that expectation and follow the crowd.
My heart went out to the LW in particular because of his confession about experiencing panic attacks. I used to get them myself years ago and they are are horrible to experience, and an all-too-real symptom on very real stress. Panic attacks are a strong signal that something has to change (whether in your thinking or your actions) and I’m really glad he’s reached out for help. I only wish the advice columnist had thought to advise him to go to the mental health clinic at his university.
It won’t be easy for him to stand up to his parents (because they come from their own past and experiences), but ultimately he has to remind himself that this is his life.
Anna said:
I am continuously blown away by this when it comes to my mother as well. She was 21 years old when she flew by herself to this country (into Albany, NY in the middle of a record-breaking snowstorm), to meet her husband who was a virtual stranger to her. They had had an arranged marriage, and 3 months after their wedding, he flew off on his own to the States to pursue his PhD, leaving her behind for 2 years to live with his family in Rajesthan (she’s from Gujarat). I don’t know how she did it–but she also knew she had no choice. She was a married woman and she went whereever her husband was.
Lucky for her, her husband turned out to be a pretty great guy (yay Dad!). =)
I can’t get over how bad that advice is!
A N N A, I’m only 22, and I was horrified at how Cary treated LW’s parents – so it’s not you being 32, it’s you being a decent person. He actually advocated belittiling them and treating them like children. What is that all about? And THEN, the idiot advocates that LW stay the parents doll, just change the outfit. What kind of idiotic advice is this?
I think both of ’em need a solid Bata upside the head. I’m totally sending this to my Chachas with a thank-you note for being such awesome parents that I never had to sound this stupid.
That kid needs to take advantage of his school’s counseling services.
a) quit your job and do it (this might involve starvation), or b) get a less interesting job that leaves you time to pursue your love as a hobby
a) wow. and here I’d thought you’d suggest something unreasonable b) how does less interesting == more time?
@ Aadarshini, #4: I don’t think it’s fair to call the kid stupid – like Anna mentioned, he’s apparently led a sheltered life and it can be hard to figure out what to do. This may be a little off-topic, but I really think that parents who want to protect a kid from every bad thing in the world and make all the decisions for them are doing that kid a total disservice. How can you get along in the world when you can’t figure out things for yourself?
And Anna, as you mentioned, even picking up and moving to a completely different country and culture, while most of our parents didn’t have a choice (e.g., if it was the wife following the husband), that was a pretty big move in and of itself, and they didn’t have anyone telling them how to handle it. So granted, our parents, who came to this alien culture, are probably stronger than most of us, but at the same time, they have to realize that their children also need to learn to fend for themselves..
he needs to get over his parents,and do whatever it is he needs to do for himself cos times a runnin
shalu, i think the world is too harsh a place to parade the above as an achievement. tell this to an iraqi or a kid in slums of india, or even to someone in a poor/low middle class family in india. it is great that this country is secure enough that this is considered pain. but it helps to know that in the big scheme of things this is a very very privileged position to be in.
i like the tone of anna’s writeup. too often, kids are so sheltered that they never see how harsh the world can be. that is fine by me, they are kids after all—it is annoying that popular culture panders to teen angst as if it were something inflicted by nazis, instead of merely seeing it as growing pains. yeah, maybe peace corps or even a trip to desh (and not the high flying one) will help.
Have you ever heard anyone being passionate about a 9 to 5-er? I’m sure they exist, but I’ve yet to encounter one. Many, if not most, of the people I know who work 9-to-5 do so because it gives them time to do stuff outside of work.
All of this points to a huge demand for clinical psychologists/psychotherapists from a desi or asian background. Cary Tennis is well intentioned but out of his element
Definitely. I’ve been where LW is right now. My situation was a little different in that I liked my science major, but was doing poorly in school. I was feeling the pressure from the ‘rents to finish in four and ended up signing up for too many classes and going on the dreaded double secret academic probation. I didn’t drop classes in time and was advised by the academic counselor to see a psych counselor about my stress and class load. It helped a lot and I was able to drop my class after the drop date because the psych counseler can give you a free pass. And in the end I talked to my parents and let them know what was going on and they completely surprised me and were very understanding and supportive. I think a lot of the times we just assume what are parents’ reaction will be and we keep things from them, don’t talk to them, don’t open up to them and perpetuate a distant relationship.
What Cary should have said is talk to your parents, talk to a school counselor. Instead he chose to be a complete asshat and give insulting advice.
the law school is a jumping off point to writing or journalism is ‘tarded. the loans suck. if someone wants to get some grad education before doing journalism or writing they should do a humanities or social science doctorate where most of their costs are covered, and they actually specialize in a particular area of knowledge instead of learning more process and method.
The advice is bad, it’s true. I hate when people redirect folks to law school as the thing to help them figure out life. It is not worth the debt, drama, or time if you don’t know why you’re there. Also, how will that make this already miserable kid any happier, except that it may be easier (given his/her skill sets) to pass his/her coursework?
You want to be a journalist? Get an internship. Write for your college paper or radio station. Consider J-School. Better yet, just work in the industry and forget grad school altogether. I feel for the kid. But also, I think Cary whatsitsbucket doesn’t understand the factors underlying why immigrant families often push their kids towards professional degrees (medicine, engineering, law, business), and usually it has more to do with financial security/stability and integration than not. Not saying status doesn’t factor in, but I think parents really want their kids to be happy, and sometimes they think happiness is only attainable via a pre-professional track.
Have you ever heard anyone being passionate about a 9 to 5-er? I’m sure they exist, but I’ve yet to encounter one. Many, if not most, of the people I know who work 9-to-5 do so because it gives them time to do stuff outside of work.
Just because 9-5’ers tend to be less interesting, doesn’t mean every less interesting job is a 9-5’er.
bytewords said:
Well comparing my coworkers feat to the despair found in third world countries would be completely defeatist–there’s absolutely no comparison in my friends triumph to rise above her parental pressures and that of a poor child simply sturggling to gain a college education. No one can dispute the fact that in the U.S. we are incredibly blessed to have the option of choosing a field that we love.
However, the anecdote I provided was given as evidence that the LW’s struggles are felt my many American kids…and every day brancing out and doing what they want is their own personal achievement.
I was under the impression that the advice columnist pushed the “Law School button” because the LW said the following:
m+a analyst. you can do wack $hit all day and all night.
Been there. Done that. Stress can also manifest itself physically; I got extremely sick from all the stress and dropped 20 pounds in 3 months.
Just reiterating that this student should visit his/her college counseling center ASAP. Counseling provided me with perspective, maturity, and strength to talk to my parents. As BadIndianGirl says, “I think a lot of the times we just assume what are parents’ reaction will be and we keep things from them, don’t talk to them, don’t open up to them…”
He/she needs to know that he/she doesn’t have to go at this alone. And–more likely than not–his/her parents will understand… eventually.
Ohhh whenI read such stories and some of your comments how I wish I had parents like you:) Mine were the completely opposite. They never forced me, never expected anything out of me and they also never guided me …..I made my own choices about college and education. I remember I used to come home from school with my report card in hand and my parents wanted to know if I had passed…that was it! They just wanted me to pass…..as opposed to my friends whose parents would come to school every week, discuss things with the teachers, personally interview tutors, helped the kids with homework and were disappointed that their kid had stood third in class! Mine never did that! I turned out fine…no doubt…am a “not so satisfied lawyer” now working my ass off at a big lawfirm dreaming of baking cakes and opening my own little coffe/cake shop. I always feel that had my parents pushed me and guided me a little bit more…..I could have achieved a lot more and a lot faster than I have now!
Sriram, I used to work 9-5, at a nonprofit nonetheless (what? regular hours?!), and loved it 🙂 That said, it definitely was an exception to the rule as far as my usual work routine goes =/
mithi, I think there’s a difference between your parents being involved/excited/interested and feeling like they confine your career choices. I know for some kids their parents threaten to cut them off if they don’t go into a field they approve of. It can be harder than it sounds. That said, I personally think education is one of the only things worth taking out mad debt for. If things get really bad, I think it’s also important for college kids to realize that 1) they’re adults now, and 2) sometimes you have to make adult decisions. Seeing a career counselor or anyone who can offer support, in that case, is always helpful.
I don’t work for an NFP, but many of my clients are NFPs and I can tell you the employees there are for the most part happy and easy to work with and hardly every work more than an 8-hour day. My for-profit clients are bitter, unhappy and in general more snippy and mean to us. Also, I’m on the board of a NFP and our staff absolutely loves what they are doing, and so YES! you can be happy at a 9-5, but as Camille said, NFPs tend to be an exception to the rule.
That’s me in a year…perhaps I should specialize in counseling career confused desi kids?
Incidentally, I do have an undergrad degree in journalism and busted my ass doing internships in college, only to realize my senior year I wasn’t so interested anymore. So I spent 5 years after undergrad floating around and ended up in a middle management position that paid the bills until I figured out what I wanted to do (hence the grad school).
Of course, my father feels guily for not giving me more guidance during those 5 years, but I know the guidance would have been “Move back home” or “Go to law school”, and I would have felt I was pursuing their dream, not mine (as with the journalism, in a rounadabout way). He’s not worried baout job prospects or the fact that I’ll be lucky to crack $50K the first few years out of school; he’s concerned that I will get married after I’m 30.
So really, parents take a LOT to be happy, I say, and yes, I agree with others who say the kid should have sought out counseling, although not all counselors are culturally competent, and the one he/she went to see may have said something similar to Cary rather than taking cultural considerations into account.
I was hoping Gawker would rip into this advice (as they make fun of Cary Tennis on a weekly basis) but no such luck. Maybe a bit touchy for them.
The LW has posted a response with further information here
Before anybody jumps on the parents.
BIG, actually the 9-5 was the exceptional aspect 🙂 Most nonprofits I’ve worked with work ridiculous hours (definitely comparable with corporate hours — 70-100 hour weeks, etc). I was tickled to be able to come into a place that recognized that while it was sometimes necessary to pull longer days/weeks, overall your employees’ mental health will help fuel their productivity and happiness in an area of work that is often disheartening, depressing, and draining (albeit important, necessary, heartfelt).
i don’t think so shalu. everyday billions on the earth survive untold misery, they are just as human as anyone in the US. the moment you see yourself differently, you will not be prepared to meet the challenges posed by “them”. and no matter what lou dobbs wants, you will have to deal with them at some time. visas and whiteness can keep them out only so long. besides they should be an inspiration to you, a testimony to human spirit.
He’s not worried baout job prospects or the fact that I’ll be lucky to crack $50K the first few years out of school; he’s concerned that I will get married after I’m 30.
Hmm, I wonder in the heirarchy of concern, why does the latter outweight the former.. rubbing chin Hmm. I wonder indeed.
The irony of the whole thing is, for the people who were coming over to the states in the 60’s and 70’s, it wasn’t necessarily an ‘in vogue’ thing to do, sure there might have been some prestige, but to come and settle I’d say was something that many parents didn’t 100% support. Yet when they come here, they turn into sheep minded thinkers.
Re: 22, 25:
NFP has nothing to do with employees. That’s why you’re not seeing a trend. For-profit or NFP, employees have contracts with the firm. NFP is about a different relationship between financers and firm (donations v. loans & equity).
Doctors know how to take care of women, so they have my endorsement!
Anna, despite my love for you (you know it’s true), I’m going to have to go against you on this one. I feel for this kid–I was there. I had the panic attacks because I was flunking Econ classes, because…lord, because I fought every direction my parents and family lovingly (if cluelessly) tossed my way. I got shoved into an accelerated local pre-medical programme at 16 (don’t ask, long story), broke out of that to get pushed over into the whole Econ + Finance = MBA course of study, managed to break out of that until two years ago when I finally gave in to the “law school bayta! Be a vakeel!”, and had to claw my way out of a life of (what seemed to me) misery. I got cut off financially twice (and you think it’s bad when you’re a teenager, imagine when you’re a Pakistani student who can’t be legally employed and gets shafted with payments under the table by complete dickheads), resorted to pole-dancing at one point (again, long story), and finally managed to get all my shit sort of sorted.
Wow, now I need therapy. Sorry about that.
The point is, I don’t think LW is a tool or particularly stupid. I think s/he is a fairly good example of a desi kid who doesn’t want to give up the security with which s/he was raised or necessarily make his/her parents upset, but is also somewhat used to being told what to do, and hence the “I turn to Cary!”–it’s like a last-ditch “Will someone please tell me that I should do what makes me happy?”
And as for Cary:
Oh, amen. I like Cary’s advice normally. And I think he’s not completely wrong, but he’s obviously got to spend some time with my Ammi, who despite being one the sharpest women I’ve ever had the misfortune to try and bluff is in some matters–especially with those really close to her heart–best treated with the sort of care and sense of fragility that one would use with a child (well, obviously not my insanely hyperactive and resilient nephews, but theoretically with other children). I don’t think it’s about talking down to them; it’s more about treating them as delicately as possible because they do tend to occasionally overreact to things with which they lack sufficient experience, especially if it could in any way threaten the future happiness/prosperity of their offspring.
OK, I’m losing my mind. Done now.
I know I’m not going to be the only one saying this but that is almost exactly what I went through, down to the Muslim immigrant parents from the Indian Subcontinent. Except – I’d convinced myself that I wanted to be a doctor from the moment I overheard my dad say “wouldn’t it be great if she becomes a doctor?” to my mom and grandparents when I was probably about 10. No one literally forced me to put “pre-med” down on my college apps. After I moved back to the States (where I was born) from Karachi to attend a small college in PA, I couldn’t for the life of me figure out why I HATED my pre-med courses. And wanted to spend more and more time in my English classes. All sorts of emotional hell ensued for some time thereafter.
But – thats not the point. LW’s parents are never going to know how unhappy they’ve made their child by foisting their hopes on him/her (however well-intentioned they may be) if the child doesn’t open his/her mouth and try to at least articulate how miserable this particular path is making em. I can’t understand how someone who is paid to dole out advice didn’t even suggest having an adult, mature conversation with the parents here. Instead this columnist turned the parents into these money grubbing, selfish people that I just am not convinced they are. What rubbish.
There are soooo many other things wrong with that stupid “advice” piece but ANNA said it better than I could. I just feel bad for that kid and really annoyed with Cary.
rob, I’m an auditor and I have worked in the private sector, so I know exactly how the relationship works.
As I said before these are observations made by me and my fellow auditors. And I still stand by my statement that employees at NFPs generally work there because they believe in the cause and what they are doing.
bytewords said:
You’re completely extrapolating erroneously from my comments. I’m not at all suggesting that those in third world countries are not human or that their struggle is one that I cannot fathom. I strongly agree with your claim that their perseverence and triumph is an incredible inspiration to the human spirit.
however, that doesn’t erase the fact thta everyone has troubles and conflict in their lives. It certainly helps to look at the poor in Africa in order to put some perspective on your own life–but that doesn’t mean we should just ignore our own daily struggles (however minute they may be to you).
but that doesn’t mean we should just ignore our own daily struggles (however minute they may be to you).
That’s true. I have a friend from college who married a financial wall street guy, and they have two places, one in NJ, and one in the upper east side of manhattan (but they.. rent! gasp!), they recently hosted a dinner where it came to nearly $70 per person, because they ordered like their stomachs were balloons.
They wanted to spend a million dollars to purchase a home, but the manhattan real estate people said that wasn’t enough for the home they wanted. It was a slap in the face to them. Imagine the inner termoil. Out of seeing their heartbreak, I ran out and started a fund for them, “Luxury Manhattan Homes for Millionaires..” just think about it, for just $5,404 a month, you could give that poor manhattan millionaire the home they deserve.
I wonder why there isn’t a wikipedia article on this. Perhaps the mutineers can start a brown wikipedia where terms such as Avial marriage can be defined. (the site itself is a brown wikipedia of sorts now anyway)…
As for the article, I agree with most of what Anna has to say. My only addition is that the only way the parents are going to get their children to listen to them is by giving them advice and letting them choose. No use forcing the children. If they instead do some compare/contrast then the kids are more likely to listen to them.
35 · HMF
That’s true. I have a friend from college who married a financial wall street guy, and they have two places, one in NJ, and one in the upper east side of manhattan (but they.. rent! gasp!), they recently hosted a dinner where it came to nearly $70 per person,
Puli, Don’t get married too young! This is the stage where the “chasers” come out!
For those who do not want to become doctors but work ih in the medical field you can become a PA (Physician Assistant). First you have to become a licenced EMT, then a Paramedic, which is easy. A PA does everything except perform surgery.
Hey! Cary Tennis’s advice could have been a whole lot worse. He could have asked LW to become an engineer, which is what FAR too many desi parents do especially in the desh. I say this from personal experience, having seen a number of my classmates drop out in my first year like rivets off an overstressed bridge, hounded half to death by their parents to “Get into engineering!”. Somehow they managed to study and score well enough to get into engineering, when they realize too late that they hate the damned thing and that they have totally burned out beyond belief. I still have a friend from college who wanted to become a writer (a WRITER for crying out loud), who was dragged screaming to end up as an engineer, and now sits around at home all day long writing angsty pieces on Sulekha.com about people with better lives.
Maybe the smart thing for Cary to say would have been “I’m sorry! I really can’t find my way to a rest room in South Asia without a South Asian guide dog. You should probably ask a certified South Asian guidance counselor; here are some names I had in my Rolodex.”, but I suppose it’s too much to ask.
rob, I disagree. While I understand your broader point (that nonprofits nurture donor/org relations more than employee/org relations), I think there’s a shift happening in a lot of the more successful, innovative, low-turnover nonprofits towards ensuring “employee mental health.” Just my observation from the Bay Area scene, at least.
Anna,
Thanks for this wonderful piece. I am going to get my son to read it.
As DBD parents, who emigrated rather late in life here to the USA , my husband and I struggle with these questions all the time.Should we let go of our inherent desire for financial security for our son ? For us, everything that we have today is the result of our education – (which in both cases was what the parents wanted us to do and not what we thought we wanted to ). I also know that we will not have enough to leave for the kid to be able to be part of the “idle rich “set. Yet, we would also like our son to have the advantage of being what he wants to be .Otherwise what’s the point in our moving so far from home – if we cannot let him have opportunties that we ourselves may not have had? No easy answers here , we are still swinging between urging him to make something of his life and letting him alone to find his own way 🙂
we are still swinging between urging him to make something of his life and letting him alone to find his own way 🙂
These two aren’t necessarily mutually exclusive.
On a cold Delhi night in 1972, in my parents’ living room, I wiped my sweaty palms and mustered just enough courage to blurt out to these clueless, confused and terribly concerned people that I had already picked out a wife and a place to live. I told them they already knew the girl and had certainly heard of the place, America. All I needed from them was a one-way ticket and a hundred dollars if they could somehow circumvent the $8 foreign exchange rule. My bride-to-be had assured me that she had a few hundred dollars stashed away in a bank account back in her country, Trinidad. A nest egg of almost $500, I figured, was more than enough to last an entire month in a new country.
I was all of 20 years old.
My poor parents approved wholeheartedly of my harebrained scheme and, just to make sure there were no hard feelings, told me they had always felt I was destined for bigger and better things. It has been 35 years and I am still appalled at my parents’ blind faith in me. They had no right to be so trusting. But then they had never read a single book, not even an advice column, on proper parenting. However, they had one parental quality, and that is to trust the gleam in their children’s eyes, and if the gleam was intense enough, to believe that success will eventually come. Law school, med school, where to live, how to support oneself and other such issues weren’t all that important to them.
I know this is a very personal story but hopefully it adds something to the content of this post.
Happy Raksha Bandhan everybody!
Maybe the kid needs to buckle down and stop flunking classes. I think he needs to change his major if he doesnt like it but he is no martyr for flunking organic chemistry 101. Life is a bitch and he needs to at least put in an effort on things which are important. He should immediately change his major because flunking classes wont help in either finding a job or going to grad school.
ANNA: I dont think most lawyers hate their jobs. Most lawyers dont work for big firms anyway. There are over half a million lawyers in the US and a very small tiny minority works for BIGLAW. Even at BIGLAW the lawyers who do litigation dont exactly hate their jobs. The only lawyers who seem to hate their jobs more than other people are BIGLAW lawyers who do transaction law.
Re: 13
Razib, I don’t know what the exact situation is now, but back when I was doing my PhD in Developmental Biology, it seemed that those of us in the sciences had reasonable stipends and fellowships/assistantships, whereas grad students in the humanities/social sciences were always just one paycheck away from destitution. That’s not to say that the kid in question should go on to grad school in the sciences; simply that he/she should be aware that grad school in the humanities might be a little challenging financially.
The other day my ABD brother and I were commenting that we wish we had become a doctor and lawyer respectively. Now that i am a parent, I can’t believe how wise my parents were. I just wish I had the wisdom to listen to them then.
Runa writes: >> For us, everything that we have today is the result of our (college) education
And that is the deepest flaw among most Indian-born American immigrants. They project their Indian economic experience to America’s economic model.
America was not, and still is not, a country that built itself based on college education. It’s a country of hard working, creative, risk taking entrepreuners who think differently and do not hesitate to go against the grain. Americans constantly re-invent themselves, hence a mid-life career change is quite common in America – but it’s almost unheard of in the rest of the world.
In America, education helps – but only until a point. Beyond that, you’ve got to be a natural at what you do, otherwise capitalism will eat you alive.
Risk taking is probably one of the greatest qualities parents can foster on their kids, as Floridian’s personal anecdote exemplifies.
M. Nam
Moornam, I agree.But this “flaw” as you put it is inevitable because for our experience it is true .The reason that I mentioned it is because I know that its different here but its so difficult to let go of certain ingrained stuff …and for immigrants reduction of risk becomes paramount at leats for our kids
Not just America – everywhere.Even in the des my classmates from professional school and I were at every part of the career spectrum …
lovely post Anna, and great analysis…the discussion is wonderful and strangely cathartic as well…many thanks for all the varying opinions…ownership of career choice is a difficult thing to get your mind around, when you are pulled in so many different directions…you feel a certain obligation to your parents, and yet you feel that somewhere in you is the ability to do something more than work for the sole purpose of helping rich people get richer…it’s true we are in a privileged position in this country, that we have this dilemma…but, that still doesn’t take away our obligation to ourselves to find a way to be happy in our professional lives, and maybe even use our best talents to add value to the world we live in…after all, if not in America, then where else?…
Aww, Sin! I heart you, too, but everyone is already aware of my ardour for thee. 🙂
I don’t think we’re too far apart in our take on this, actually. I was on such a tear while fisking this article during my far-too-brief lunch hour to mention that I had panic attacks, too. Still have them. All the more reason for LW to see the counseling office for support– it totally helped me through undergrad. I reacted the way I did to LW because I very much was LW– I wasn’t emoting from a scornful place, I promise. I consummately feel for them and all who are sharing their situation, that’s why I vented and wanted to create an alternative space for a valuable, culturally-relevant discussion, since I know some of our lurkers (and commenters) might appreciate it.
I don’t think the kid is stupid at all…and I agree, that’s exactly why LW turned to Cary; he can’t function unless someone tells him what to do. But that was my point…until he learns to tell HIMSELF what to do, he’s fucked.
Now please accept my glossimer kisses on both your cheeks, you fantastic morsel of man-candy. Back to my deadline for me. 🙂