An anonymous tipster (thanks!) updated our news tab with the following story, which I found quite interesting:
After the Chinese-made kirpans (daggers) nearly wiped out local manufacturers of one of the five ‘K’s of Sikhism, it is the turn of Guru Nanak Dev’s idols with ‘Chinese characteristics’ to flood shops across Punjab. [link]
Yes, apparently the figurines make the Guru look like a “Lama”, i.e. Tibetan. But more on that (and the Kirpans!) later.
The figurines, which have been in the market for some time, are available for Rs 100-150. They are popular gift items, with the smaller ones finding a perch on car dashboards “since it reassures the driver of divine protection”, as one user put it.
The larger versions are seen in restaurants, stacked along with statuettes of deities of other faiths. Not everybody, though, is pleased. In fact, the Sikh clergy have issued directions to the community to refrain from buying these idols.
The order ostensibly stems from the fact that idol worship is banned in Sikhism. Idol worship, including performing of ‘aarti’, was prohibited by Guru Nanak himself, while Guru Gobind Singh even declared that those indulging in such practices would be ostracized from the faith. [link]
The fantastically-named Sikhi Wiki has this to say regarding idolatry:
Idol worship was heavily discouraged by all sikh Guru’s. This was believed to have been a manipulation by the preistly (sic…no pun intended) caste to keep the power in their hands. The concept of ‘worship’ does not exsist (sic) in Sikhism, sikhs may only bow down to Guru Granth Sahib for respect, and may mediate on God’s name (nam simran). [link]
What I’m wondering is, who is buying these figures? Maybe they aren’t Sikh? Or is that irrelevant?
Is this the real source of conflict and potential teeth-gnashing:
Moreover, the Chinese-made idols sport a Chinese look, like slanted eyes and Mongoloid features. [link]
I kind of understand this. It’s not like there is agreement on what Christ looked like…and we all want to see ourselves in the divine, which is why Jesus is available in black, brown, white, etc. This case is a little different, in my opinion, because Guru Nanak-ji was a more recent historical figure and we know he was Punjabi and can depict him as such (and no, I’m not even going to try to get in to “what a Punjabi looks like”)– I’m just pointing out that unlike JC, whose ubiquitous Dresden-doll edition doesn’t quite jibe with his Semitic ancestry, the Guru might look a bit more realistic. But on to China’s nefarious plot to undermine our Kirpans, as promised earlier!
In the rows of kirpan shops lining the Golden Temple complex, China has made an incursion unknown to most who carry with them one of Sikhism’s five symbols. Mintai, a brand from comrade country, is doing particularly well and local kirpan manufacturers are not at all happy about it. Till recently, the annual turnover of Amritsar’s kirpan market was estimated at Rs 50 crore. But the hold it had on global kirpan markets seems set to change, thanks to made-in-China entrants.
Agitated, Kanwaljit Singh of Jagmohan Kirpan Factory said, “The entry of Chinese kirpans has made a considerable dent in our overseas market. With labour being cheaper in China, the products are cheaper, too. The low-budget overseas market has almost entirely been captured by the Chinese. Our exports have come down by 80%-90%.” [wiki]
I wonder if merchants will take a page from this book, and offer Kirpans which are branded as Indian-made?
Incidentally, Hindu Gods and Goddesses have already received the Chinese treatment, which we blogged about here, back in 2005.
ANNA, it probably is Sikhs, although idolatry is strictly forbidden. However, that doesn’t really stop people from putting up huge portraits/paintings of the Gurujis, nor does it stop this kind of industry. It’s one of the many lines where practice, especially between Hinduism and Sikhism, gets blurred while the religion is pretty direct about what observation should be.
I wonder if their kirpans are also cored with lead? 🙂
Camille, that immediately brought to mind one of my favorite scenes in BiLB, when they had Jesminder pray before that enormous painting of Guru-ji before opening the envelope which contained her results. 🙂 Not kosher, but soooo desi!
I’ve seen several Sikh households where people have put up pictures of Guru Nanak, though not in more ‘orthodox’ (or more educated) Sikh households.
But I’ve never seen an actual idol or statue of Guru Nanak in any Sikh household, which makes me think the buyers are probably non-Sikhs, or heterodox enough in their beliefs that they wouldn’t be recognized as Sikh by the mainstream of the Sikh community.
ANNA, while that scene is totally not kosher, it had my family laughing because it was SO accurate in terms of “real-ness.”
I guess I’ve seen this much more in India (not the U.S.), and generally in households where the couple is/are a Hindu-Sikh mix, or as I like to say, “Sikh-lite.” 🙂 I’m with you on “heterodox enough that they wouldn’t be recognized as Sikh by the mainstream…” Just my impressions, though. Maybe my Sikh-circle is much different 🙂
Growing up in India, some of our family friends were Sikhs, but I don’t remember seeing a statue in their homes. I do remember seeing the pictures of gurus in calendars, though I don’t remember if those calendars were all hung by non-Sikhs (shops). I’d also like to think that non-Sikhs who buy the statues are well-intentioned (respecting the guru) but also unaware that idols of Sikh gurus are frowned upon/forbidden.
But the interesting part is the Chinese connection. Talking to people back home, this seems to be a popular discussion – how cheap (and very low quality) objects from China (batteries, toys, you-name-it) are flooding the Indian market. Coming from an environmental perspective, this seems a bit troublesome to me as it promotes the use-and-throw mentality instead of buying durable, longer-lasting products. Anyways, time will tell how this plays out from an economic and environmental perspective.
My grandparents are ardent sikhs and they have a picture of guru nanak on their wall. I remember my dad explaining to me why idol worship was forbidden in sikhism. So remembering that, I said “didn’t guru nanak say that if you worship me, you are not a true sikh?” Yeah all I got was the evil eye from grandma…
my mom made me pray before i went apartment-hunting yday!
can you explicate? i’ve always wondered about this – and whether it is the same reason in sikhism as in islam.
pointing out the inconsistancies in irrational beliefs is a sure fire way to get into trouble. best to leave grandma be…
Because in sikhism there is no form, gender, species of god. Its just god. Guru Nanak was not a god, he was a teacher. Thats why he forbade sikhs from worshipping him.
This is coming from an atheist dad to an atheist daughter, so maybe someone with a better knowledge of sikhism can add something.
I think you summed it up quite nicely 🙂
I mean no disrespect by my following post. If any felt, please forgive me.
I am amused whenever I read statments like, Our Guru disouraged Idol worship, Jesus shattered all idols and Muhammad went ballistic on the Idolators, when he conquered Mecca.
As if the rest of their message really makes any sense? As if Jesus really existed and the Bible was really God’s word. As if the Quran was really revealed to Mohd. by God. As if going round the Kabba seven times and kssing the black stone is not idol worship. As if the educated Sikhs really follow the other tenets of their faith to the fullest. Indeed, all of my [graduate degrees holders, doctors, engineers, etc] Sikh friends pray to Guru Nanak’s portrait and in many instances the portrait is sorrounded by vaious Hindu idols in their homes.
To me what is most interesting is the economic drive by some entrepreneur in China (or with an Indian connection) to tap into this non-existent market? While it is know by everyone that idol worship is not part of the religion, what could have motivated someone to invest in a non-existent end market as such?…will be on the hook to see this trend transpire
Totally agree with Camille and SF Girl. Yes, I know of Sikhs who have paintings of Gurus ( Imagination of Famous Punjabi Painter Sobha Singh)in their houses and then they go on to explain to their Muslim friends- ” This is my first God ( Guru Nanak), This my 10th God ( Guru Gobind Singh) ..”. All this time the Muslim friend is wondering ” wow! how is it possible to have Gods in sequence”. This happened here in US.
I was in the home of some friends in the U.K once, where they kept a huge picture of Harmandar Sahib (the Golden Temple) in the living room (it took up like half the wall)…nothing wrong with that….but in a back room I was surprised to see there was a small shrine with some Shiv lingams and a picture of Shiva. What I realised is that these are just village customs that survive here and there. That particular family would never have considered itself Hindu. To most people, these are just cultural trappings, and no one takes it seriously one way or the other. Few people are committed to following the tenets of their religion 100%…if you look at Muslims and Christians (and probably Buddhists in many cultures) there are a lot of folk practices people follow which are not strictly in accord with established precepts.
To # 3- One would hope that “more educated” people would stop regressing and see religion and god for what it really is – a big hoax.
That Guru Nanak is such a doll.
I suppose the people who are buying them are Sikhs (with good intentions) who don’t know much about Sikhism. I;ve noticed that among many rural uneducated Punjabi Sikhs, religous lines are very blurred (i.e a Sikh family will have various Hindu statutes of Shiva/Krishna/etc in their home)
Also, Sikh families in the West and in India often have pictures of Guru/gurdwaras in their homes, but I never see people “worshipping” or praying to these items (unlike in BILB)
I just wanted to clarify that I’ve actually seen this across “education levels,” and I think it’s a bit unfair to characterize one as more “rural” and another as more “urban.” The big difference, in my experience, is a family’s religious education (as mentioned by Preetam, jasleen, et al.).
And I’ve definitely seen people pray to pictures (or have their parents tell them to “pray to Babaji”, the connotation being that Babaji is Guruji, not Vaheguru). I’m not saying this is appropriate or condoned in Sikhi, just that practice doesn’t always match up to the teachings of the religion itself.
my mom made me pray before i went apartment-hunting yday!
i sincerely hope you did not look for apartments during an inauspicious time of the day! and that when you move in to your new place, you will do so at the right time on an auspicious day. i am only speaking from experience, receiving notable good fortune in my new apartment by moving in at ~4:30 am on a highly auspicious day. although i missed the first chance of an auspicious move-in and thus had to postpone the move by a couple weeks, it was completely worth it. thanks, panchangam!
First, about the pictures of the Gurus I’ve never known anyone to idolize them. They’re just pictures/portraits/art nothing more. If anyone does idolize them, yes, they are a minority going counter to the basic precepts of the religion. As for the dolls. As for the dolls, think tchotchkes. Just as non-Buddhists buy little fat Chinese-style Buddha decorations or those Buddha head statues.
Anna, what a nice thread. I was reading and writing on the Hyderabadi thread and hadn’t come up to the Main tab so didn’t know about this one till just now. Very good points have already been made by so many people.
Idols of Guru Nanakji are not usually seen in Sikh homes or in Gurdwaras. But as far as representational accuracy of facial features. A relevant point – in the north-East areas of the Indian states of Punjab, Himachal, Uttaranchal, etc, there are some Sikh communities where the people have noticeably more Mongoloid features. Some men from among such communities have noticeably sparser beard growth compared to what is considered normative. There are also Sikh converts from among Chinese (or other East Asian) diaspora communities in the US. There is a Gurdwara in Shanghai, and of course also Hong Kong, and more recently, even Tokyo. So it is possible that, as Sikhism is seen as at least semi-normative in East Asia, a retrospective projection of features onto historical Sikh personages also takes place, rather, in fact, as has taken place for Christ, though the numbers are not anywhere near the same.
My theory is that the idea for this idol of Guru Nanak came from a Chinese entrepreneur who might have mistakenly seen Sikhism as analogous to Buddhism, which, although seen as non-idolatrous and even atheistic, nevertheless has many practitioners who do not see a great contradiction between that precept and statues and idols of the Buddha.
Italian, Spanish, Portugese and Latin American Roman Catholicism are full of idols. Camille Paglia once said that Italian Catholicism as practised by the normal woman and woman as opposed to the strictures of the Vatican, is actually a form of pan-theism. Catholicism grafted onto that impulse amongst the Italian masses and took a deep hold. It could be that some Sikhs retain some aspects of Hindu practice in certain forms of worship and habit.
.
“He looks so Chinese/Chini” is such a typically desi comment, if not amongst DBDs, then certainly in modern, rural and urban India. I wonder if this is a post-partition, possibly bourgeois Hindu thing…A visit to Pakistan quickly reminds us of the huge variety of facial features in the subcontinent. “Mongoloid” [embarrassed to use quote…]or more precisely Central Asian faces are perhaps slightly more common there, think of Nusrat Fateh Ali Khan, for instance.
But then almost all of my Mom’s TamBrahm sibs could pass for East Asians, so go figure. Wonderful world, beautiful people…
15 – Troll.
I wonder whats the actual percentage of people who practise their religion to the word. The Bible talks about slaves and owning slaves. The book of Mormons talks that the only way a coloured person can go to heaven is as a slave to the white man. The Quran has lot of anachronisms. Same with most Hindu religious books.
Most people follow religion based on the culture they grew up in. Muslims in India, even the sunnis, go to Dargah but a Saudi Arabian sunni muslim from the wahabi or Salafi school will think of visiting a Daragah as heresy. In a Jain wedding i attended the first thing was Ganesh puja. Ganesh is considered a part of the Hindu Pantheon. Some consider Buddha to be the 9th Avatar of Vishnu in Hinduism and thus Buddhists as Hindus, others, mainly outside India, reject this view point.
Just wanted to add my agreement with Camille’s comment from above. My own family is highly educated professionals and they all have the pictures of harminder sahib or gurus and often fold their hands together and pray to them. They are convinced that is not really worshiping. And, invariably questioning their ideas begets the response, “Don’t criticize!”
Simply because someone from a different economic status or education level than yours behaves differently is not enough to establish causation between the two.
Milli # 19
Ah -ha the infamous “Rahu Kaalam” strikes …oh lord, the # of times my aunts have made me arrive early,/leave late/ leave packed suitcases outside the home before RK strikes.( For the mystified few : Rahu Kaalam is an inauspicious time of the day that strikes at different hours each day of the week and the start of any activity is prohibited at that time !)
Back on topic : Is it possible that these statues are being marketed for being used in vehicles and therefore not exactly idol worship ?( At this point I must confess that at various times in my life I have had Sai Baba/Ganapati on my dashboard. Per the male members in my family, I need all the divine help I can get when I am at the wheel!)
4 am, dude – you are a most dutiful daughter. my mom sometimes has these super-religious moods where she follows rahukaalam, and tuesdays are a big non-no to start anything, so i’ve been warned against finding anything ‘good’ tomorrow. my mother also prayed (during an archana at the temple, no less) that i would fail an interview in DC so that i could get a job in NY. she also just finished a 15-temple tour in TN for the
goodsuccessful married life of my sister.packing in india was such a big deal due to RK! also, leaving for trips.
SF Girl, thanks for the explanation. what was your notable good fortune, by the way?
I love this thread! Very interesting comments! Responding to some of the points in random order. First of all, I’m a grandma who is still learning.. a life long student, a shishya, a Sikh 🙂 I think that one of the reasons why Sikhs “pray” to Bababji’s photo on the wall is because they need a point of focus. Another reason is that Sikhs believe that Wahe Guru Ji’s Jyot or Light is in the Ten Gurus, so praying to the Gurus is considered the same as praying to the One Formless God. When Sikhs bow to a picture of Harmandir Sahib, it is not the physical building they are bowing to, but the Holy Sri Guru Granth Sahibji inside the Gurdwara. And bowing to the “Book” is not akin to idolatory because the Sikh Holy Scriptures contain the Word of God as revealed first to Guru Nanak. And yes, some Sikhs do follow certain Hindu practices but I think it is more on a cultural platform rather than religious..for example celebrating Raksha Bandhan or Diwali.. Sikhism espouses living a simple life..no complications such as worrying about Rahu Kalam, or auspicious dates and times. Every day is a good day, (yes, even Tuesday)every number is a lucky number, ( yup, even 13) There is no such thing as an evil eye, not even from Grandma ( to SFGirl 🙂 ) And that scene in BILB, yeah, that definitely happens in most Sikh households. Its just to seek Blessings from the One God whenever we embark on something new. Just like how you would ask a friend to Wish Me Luck before an exam or a job interview. What better friend to ask than Him (or Her, or It) Guru Nanakji encouraged questions, so keep asking till you are satisfied with the answers.
what was your notable good fortune, by the way?
that was purely tongue-in-cheek. the only good fortune i’ve had, perhaps, is to have the sense not to give a flying f*ck about these auspicious-guspicious timings (although this obviously has no impact on my level of obedience).
don’t even get me started on RK. if i had a nickel for every time we had to run out of the house in the nick of time on the way to the airport … grr.
Dadi Ma, glad to know someone can explain the purpose and meaning behind the rituals (which come across as dogmatic and irrational otherwise), instead of giving the evil eye. 🙂
Heh heh.. talk about irrational Amit. A friend of mine who is very, very religious..she does Ramayan Pooja in her house, she goes for Darshan at all the Dhams, you know, very nice and peaceful and spiritual, I thought. But then one day when I was in her car going to her house, there was a black cat on someone’s front porch, and she turned around and took a much longer route to drive to her house! No kidding! I asked her why she did that but she had no answer! She is educated, well read, quite smart. I told her that I didn’t believe in black cats crossing in front of you, and that the innocent cat was simply minding her own business in her own territory. I respectfully questioned her, and asked her if the God she believes in created that cat. She said Yes, But. She had no logical answer. She was driven by superstition and she admitted that it makes life difficult at times. I have not stopped pulling her leg ever since 🙂
saw this in the paper yesterday, and i’m glad you posted about it.. looking for these idols around here.
Dadi Ma, thanks for your contribution, but I’m going to respectfully, and vehemently, disagree.
Dadi Ma, this is factually untrue. Sikhs do not believe that God’s “jot” or “light” (i.e. divine revelation) is the same as Godliness itself, and it would be the equivalent of heresy to argue that ANY human can take on God’s form. I think your point, re: people needing a focal point, is a bit more accurate (although not any more acceptable, really, since baani is pretty clear on what idolatry is and why it is forbidden). As was mentioned before, there’s a difference between what the religion dictates and how it’s practiced, oftentimes.
This is true (that it is not akin to idolatry), but the act of bowing to SGGS Ji is not simply because of its divine revelation; Sikhs believe that SGGS Ji is the “direct word of God.” The act of bowing, or supplication, indicates that a Sikh has surrendered herself, her ego, and her beliefs to the Word of God (literally). In effect, scripture is our “King” or “Ruler” — it is more meaningful and more exalted than any human ruler could be. Consequently, Sikhs are required not to supplicate to any temporal authority or power.
Lastly, I think people keep Harmandar Sahib on their walls, also, because of its historic significance as the first Sikh gurdwara built in the first Sikh city (Amritsar). I do agree with you, that bowing is simply an act of respect (usually) in these cases, not an act of idolatry, per se. For clarity for non-Sikh readers, many Sikhs also bow when they enter (any) gurdwara because it is considered to be a “House of God” — it’s an act of respect and submission.
Runa, they could be used in vehicles, but it would still be idol worship. What I often see in people’s cars are either plastic-encased mini-portraits of the Gurujis (or a single Guruji), or the equivalent of a cloth/mini-tapestry/rayon thing that hangs from the rearview mirror. It seems that there’s no shortage of paraphernalia for driving. And of course, there are also “Ek Onkaar” and Khanda window decals.
Thanks for the clarification Camille. I see plenty of those decals here in the BAy area
Camille, thanks for your explanations too. 🙂
I again agree with Camille’s explanation but not completely. If you ask a hindu they will also say that when they bow and pray to an “idol” they don’t necessarily think it is god itself. It is a representation of god, gives them something to pray to. As Dadi Ma called it a focal point. So, why is that called idol worship but bowing and praying to the Granth Sahib is seen only as showing respect? Is it because that is where our rituals end? Being sarcastic there becaues as most Sikhs know the Granth Sahib is treated as a living being. Langar is presented to the Granth Sahib, there is a ritual for opening it in the morning, closing it at night, carrying it somewhere, wrapping it up. There are countless stories about how some granth sahib survived a natural disaster such as a fire, flood, etc.
But why? is right on. In the Sikh tradition, idle worship is perhaps a problem, but the community cannot honestly say that the tradition stands against idol worship.
Camille, Grandmas can learn a thing or two too, you know 🙂
I agree with most of your comments… those are pretty much my sentiments..its just that you expressed them more eloquently 🙂 And if I may add, you expressed them very respectfully as well.
I agree that any human being cannot take the form of God, which is what you also wrote. But we are not talking about any human being. Guru Nanakji received the revelation of the Divine after he was immersed in the Bein river for three days. I have been taught through katha vichaar at the Gurdwara that Guru Nanakji then had the Divine Jyot passed to Him, and therefore there is no difference between SatGuru Nanak and Wahe Guru, the One God. There are many Sikh websites which explain this better than I can such as All About Sikhs http://www.allaboutsikhs.com/sikh-gurus/sri-guru-granth-sahib-ji.html
Or the following one:
“Literally Guru Nanak’s body was a platform from which God Himself spoke and delivered His message- Gurbani (Divine Word). God manifested Himself through Guru Nanak:” http://www.sikh.net/SIKHISM/GURUS/index.htm
And yes, bowing to Sri Guru Granth Sahibji is to surrender one self completely.. as I mentioned earlier, you expressed my point much better than I did.
I think perhaps one reason Sikhs keep the decals or hanging tapestry/ mini portrait of Guru(s) etc. is because they want some physical reminder to ground them. With so many tensions in life, even the best of us can falter. But when we have a visual guide before us, we are reminded to stay on the right path. Another reason could be that its just an act of expressing one’s beliefs. Just like some folks have car bumper stickers that express their sentiments. I don’t think that this can be categorized as idolatory.
But Why? please correct me if I am wrong but this is my humble understanding: When a Hindu bows to an idol it is called idol worship because the idol is carved out of any stone, and then this stone is given the God status. A Sikh does not bow to any book, but only that which contains the Direct Word of God which is Sri Guru Granth Sahibji. I’m not sure how to properly express my point but I hope you understand the gist. Its not necessary to be sarcastic, which you wrote, since we are all learning and trying to understand each others points of view with logic and sound reasoning.
“Being sarcastic there becaues as most Sikhs know the Granth Sahib is treated as a living being.”
Sri Guru Granth Sahibji is indeed considered by all Sikhs to be our Living Guru. This was ordained by Guru Gobind Singhji. Prashaad/Langar is kept in the Durbar Hall to be Blessed. It is not presented to the Holy Book as it is in the case of idol worship where the Pandit actually takes a spoonful of food and applies it to the mouth of the various stone idols and implores the idols to partake of the food. As far as the opening and closing “rituals”, perhaps the link below can explain it better than I can.
http://www.sikhsangat.com/lofiversion/index.php/t22940.html
If you ask a hindu they will also say that when they bow and pray to an “idol” they don’t necessarily think it is god itself. It is a representation of god, gives them something to pray to.
i wouldn’t say this is entirely accurate. it is what i think, but i don’t think that’s the predominant belief. the statues themselves are believed by many to be imbued with the spirit of god; so, it’s not just a stone statue to focus on — the statue is god itself and can be treated as such. (i have always had a problem with this idea, given the philosophical foundations of adwaita/visista-adwaita. if god is in everything, why must i lavish attention upon some statue or collect a million little idols or even go to the temple to pray, for that matter? but that is another conversation entirely.) there are several stories associated with various temples that begin with how some lucky person stumbled upon a fully formed statue that spoke to him, or god spoke to the lucky person in the dream and told him where he should build a temple and/or find a fully formed statue of god, etc. saligramam are actually good examples of inanimate objects worshipped as real manifestations of vishnu, not just a symbolic object to remind you of god.
I don’t think the argument against idolatry is about praying to “God” (I don’t think people confuse a representation for a more ephemeral entity), but Sikhs believe that God CANNOT be represented in any physical form. The ban against idolatry comes from this idea that God cannot, in any way, be captured by the limitations of human imagination. I don’t say this as a criticism of Hinduism, but rather, to delineate the differences. As I’ve said many times, I think most religions have a lot more in common than they do in opposition.
Also, Sikhs do not pray to SGGS Ji, just as they did not pray to the Sikh Gurus. While the SGGSJi is given primacy and a place of focus within the Darbar Hall, this is not to whom one’s prayers are directed, nor is the act of submission an act of submission to an idol. We don’t believe that the SGGSJi is God Itself, or a representation/manifestation of God, but rather, the direct messages and teachings of God as divinely revealed to the human Gurujis. There’s a big difference between trying to capture a manifestation of God through physical representation versus having a compilation of what you consider to be “the Word” of God.
With respect to why we are not supposed to worship the (human) Gurujis, this was because the Gurujis did not want people to confuse the messenger for the message. You can look at other religions (the most obvious one being Christianity), in which a messenger is held up as a manifestation or incarnation of God. In theory, you would not hear a Sikh say, “Do you accept Guru Nanak Ji as your lord and savior?”, nor would you “Pray to Guru Amar Ji for strength.” You would hear people saying to pray to Vaheguru or look to Vaheguru for strength. I think most people try pretty hard not to conflate human messengers with God itself. To date, while I respect Christian teachings, I personally cannot accept that Jesus was a manifestation of God (but I can believe he was divinely inspired).
I think the community honesty could say this.
.DadiMa, I think there may have been a “fast and loose” explanation given to you. It’s true that we believe each Guruji was inspired by Vaheguru’s “jot.” That said, this is NOT the equivalent of saying there is no difference between Guruji and Vaheguru. I’m not trying to be harsh, but they should not have introduced Guru Nanak Ji as “Satguru” either, in my opinion, since that term is specifically meant to describe an aspect of Vaheguru.
When individuals say that one of the Gurujis “manifested God’s message,” I think this is an honest mistake, a botched translation. He voiced God’s message. But, throughout Sikhi we are taught that all humans are equal, and even those who might be messengers of God are NOT in turn God-like. This doesn’t mean that we don’t show extreme respect, but I would probably show similar respect to the Buddha, or Moses, or Mohammad, or Jesus, for that matter. If someone is trying to explain that somehow the Gurujis were “more than human” as messengers of God’s Word, or that they are somehow godly themselves, then their explanation is in direct opposition to the teachings of Sikhi itself. I think people have a hard time explaining this difference, and so they borrow ideas to make their explanation work.
Apologies for all the typos and formatting errors above. I think my keyboard went a bit wonky (or I am a bit wonky) 🙂
Camille, I completely agree with your statements. Guru is not Vaheguru! Just this one shabad for me clarifies the distinction between Waheguru and Guru. Guru Granth Sahib Page 1349
First, there was light, then we all mortal beings of creation came to existence. From one source, the entire universe welled up,so who is good, and who is bad? O people, O siblings of destiny, do not wander deluded by doubt. The creation is in the creator, and the creator is in the creation, totally pervading and permeating all places. The clay is the same, but the fashioner has fashioned it in various ways. There is nothing wrong with the pot of clay-there is nothing wrong with the potter. The one abides in all, by its making, everything is made. Whoever realizes this, knows the one. The Source is unseen; it cannot be seen. The Guru has blessed me with this sweet molasses. Says Kabeer, my anxiety and fear have been taken away;I see the one pervading everywhere.
camille, just wanted to say i really appreciated your post #41, as i have almost identical views of parallel things in hinduism (to the chagrin of my parents, natch). i think i have learned a lot about sikhism from this site, actually, and it has made me read up on it independently. so thanks!
“…but Sikhs believe that God CANNOT be represented in any physical form.”
The Sikh worldview is that God is not represented in any one physical form, but that it is represented in every physical form.
Excuse the typo of the last post:
The Sikh worldview is that God is not represented in
anyone physical form, but that it is represented in every physical form.Camille, a BIG hug to you from Dadi Ma 🙂 Your explanation is excellent!! You make perfect sense, and it is everything what I believe in. I think “fast and loose” is a fair assessment 🙂 Preetam , thank you for your post. I am listening to this Shabad by Bhagat Kabirji right now.
What is the difference between the word “God” (or 1,400 pages describing “God”) and a statue–both place artificial physical limits on Kabeer’s beloved. In some (maybe most) instances idols are even more honest than words because they are superhuman and cannot be rhetorically captured by people to create a singular authority on God.
DadiMa, my pleasure 🙂 Preetam, thank you so much for that shabad. It’s one of my favorites. 🙂 milli, my pleasure, as well. 🙂
Dearest Intern, I think we have a troll =/
This is not an entirely accurate revision of my statement. Sikhs believe that God permeates all animate and inanimate life, but that does not mean that anything physical is to be worshipped as though it were a physical manifestation of God. There is a difference between a representation/manifestation and something that is part of larger Creator. As Preetam quoted, the Creator is in his Creation (which is why we are to treat everyone and everything as a gift to the world, as something to be respected — because it is part of God’s Creation and his larger Will), but this is not the same as saying the Creator IS the Creation. Sikhi is both pantheistic and monotheistic at once (we believe in one God for all people and religions, but we do not have a conception of “God in his Heaven” — instead we believe God is omnipresent, which I think is actually quite similar to many faith traditions).
Also, not to be pretentious, but on what grounds are you attempting to “correct” that specific sentence, removed from its larger explanation in the paragraph I provided? I’m curious.
Dheemay, I honestly think you’re not understanding both my explanation or the conceptualization of God in Sikhi. I don’t say this as a criticism — for anyone of any other faith tradition, I think the explanation in Sikhi is a bit difficult for most to wrap their heads around, in part because it is so abstract. There is a huge difference between creating a physical representation and saying that it symbolizes God versus saying, “Vaheguru” or “God” or “Allah.” A great reference for this is Jaap Sahib, which lists over 100 terms for a Higher Being and says that even all those descriptions, all the words in all human languages, cannot capture the greatness of God. Jap Ji Sahib, the introduction to the SGGSJi, is also a great starting point to begin to understand how Sikhi frames and conceptualizes Vaheguru.
Camille and Dadi Ma, I have been listening to these shabad for ages, but it made sense to me just when I came across Bhai Ghulam Mohammed Chand Rababi reciting it. Try to listen to it on http://www.keertan.org. He is listed under rare live recordings. Here is another of my favorite shabad. As always English translation fail to convey Farid’s thoughts about Beloved.
Please Do Not Touch These Eyes; I Hope To See MY Beloved on Page 1382 GGS My withered body has become a skeleton; the crows are pecking at palms But please do not touch these eyes; I hope to see my Beloved Even now, my beloved has not come to see me, behold, this is my fate. The crows have searched my skeleton and eaten all my flesh O crow, do not peck at my skeleton; if you have landed on it, fly away. Do not eat the flesh from that skeleton, within which my Beloved abides