It’s been an adjustment, to experience this website’s growth and witness our readership change. People leave, others join, many lurk. While I miss some of our now-absent personalities who were prolific with their pondering (Punjabi Boy, Jai Singh, DesiDancer and Espressa come to mind), I’m thrilled about our new commenters, who are expanding our discussion and bringing their unique points of view to our cacophonous, rowdy, online adda. I’m especially looking at our first-gen contributors, like Runa and Malathi, because for stories like the one I’m trying to blog, I think their perspective is invaluable, for helping us find nuance and context. What I’m trying to say is, HELP.
Al Mujahid for Debauchery left this on our news tab:
Unbelievable. Pakistani actor Moin Akhtar (a muhajir/Indian origin himself) plays Hyderabadis from India in blackface in this ‘comedy’ show.
Wait, WHAT? And here is where the DBDs come in, because I don’t understand the clip below or know who these actors are, and as I’ve stated before, I like to get as much information as possible before I get my outrage on– and believe me, I could rage about actors in blackface.
What on earth is going on? And would someone who watches desi tv please tell me that this an uncommon practice? I fast forwarded through the clip, but I don’t get the greasy, huge-black-glasses-equipped, buck-toothed character, and by “don’t get”, I mean my spider sense is tingling. What, if anything, do all of you know?
my population thinks my population is beautiful. i define my population as narsicists.
Umm.. what? I’m trying to make sense of that, but it’s not clicking. I don’t know how prevalent crude ‘humor based on physical/economic/social features’ is in northern culture, but I’m pretty sure it at least EXISTS in the south. Ask my mother to tell about what people from the different districts of Andhra Pradesh are like sometime.
And in my experience, people who actually live in India don’t care much for comparing their looks with north Indians. They’re too busy going on with their daily lives, in which they’re surrounded by people like them. It’s usually the ABCDs (I’m sorry, the C is just totally perfect for this occasion) who feel that way because they want to fit in with the ‘cool’ (LOL) brown clique in college. Light skin being praised in southern India may be partly due to an inferiority complex to northerners, but even if north India up and disappeared, light skin would still be prized above other hues.
I knew people who grew up in b’lore and didn’t know kannada! as someone noted here there is a growing resentment due to the lack of respect for the local language from outsiders. earlier it was the tamil speakers, now hindi and english speakers are adding on to that resentment.
thast whack. dont you automatically pick up the language of a place by living there?
ah sorry camille. I know that, it’s just that she has acted in so many south Indian movies I would actually expect her to be from the region. And I guess it would make more sense logically if we’re saying that south Indian cinema wants actresses from the north because they are lighter-skinned, that they actually are. But I guess she is an exception.
i didnt even know there was a “cool” brown clique in college. most of the brown cliques were kind of geeky science/business/pre-med types back in my day…
Some posters are taking offence of my defence of Hindi (I am not a native Hindi speaker). I apologize for it.
My point is simply this. Tell me another successful nation state which has progressed with 18+ different languages. It’s real difficult to achieve some sort of national unity and a feeling for nation without something as basic as language in common. India is still a young country, so future generations need to nurture our nation, and be extra cautious that India do not go the way of Balkans. (like TN for Tamils, Karnataka for Kannadigas,WB for Bengalis and so on).
I do not want India to bifurcate into 15 different countries, like the ertswhile Soviet Union.
In fact, a great inter-mingling/inter-regional marriages among all communities is desirable for India.
It’s ok, nala, although I think that kind of shows how much we all have in common, really [that northies “pass” for southies and vice-versa] 🙂
well…..saying that a way to keep a country together is to cram one groups language and culture down other peoples throats seems off
it is a wonderful-sounding language. very sweet, and simultaneously refined and casual. it’s actually my favourite-sounding desi language.
the state govt depends on the whole state, not just mumbai, so i don’t think so.
but representatives from mumbai are not necessarily local people, though that is not entirely the issue here. the crux of the problem is that people perceive that the local language gets step motherly treatment. to some extent it is also justified, people actually find it hard to get by knowing just marathi (and not hindi as well) in their day to day life.
Camille,
I am not sure if Marathi speakers are really pushed onto the outskirts of society, marathi is still widely used in Bombay and especially in government offices. People of Maharashtrian origin are 42% of Bombay’s population and most of the senior people in civic administration are maharashtrians. Marathi literature and theater are thriving so I am not sure if it is accurate to say that marathi speakers are relegated to outskirts of society.
Its aight. Malayalam is mine. It takes skill to speak that language, hell just to even say the name.
Huh? Then how come: – Jaya Prada – Sridevi -Farah – Tabu Made it so big in Hindi cinema?
1 long @ss palendrome…
That’s what the ‘LOL’ was for. 😛 But really, some of ’em do know how to party.
I would argue that India actually isn’t a successful nation-state, but one that has only managed to barely stay together so far, if that. C’mon, second-gens are semi-jokingly talking about the confederate south on this board! States themselves cannot stay together. India’s history necessarily includes the splitting-off of Pakistan and Bangladesh. And my brother would argue (I’m not sure how much I would agree with this) that what has kept India together is religion (Hinduism). “As soon as a state or area becomes majority non-Hindu, it develops a strong sense of regional identity and wants to secede.” I know this is a very touchy issue, so I just want to clarify that I don’t entirely agree with it, though historically there is obviously basis for it.
Not if your circle of friends comprises of english and hindi speakers, if your school does not have kannada courses and all necessary kannada interactions are done with the help of your maid.
And when that happens, people will suddenly wake up, and desperately try to revive Malayalam. Just like they’re trying (unsuccessfully) to do with Irish in Ireland. They even have Irish-medium schools in some areas, trying to raise kids speaking Irish as their first language from day one…with mixed results. I can imagine in India in the distant future, the best and most ‘posh’ schools will boast of being at least partially ‘Hindi-medium’ or ‘Tamil-medium’…as upper class people will finally want to revive these languages. Once everyone speaks English, then speaking an Indian language will become the preserve of the rich class, and the mark of an excellent, private education and high social status!
i always thought she was well known for her acting, as opposed to her looks…
A quick comment about Mumbai/Bombay. Marathi speakers were never a majority in Mumbai…never ever historically. In fact for a long time it was the anti-marathi place…again historically (it was initially designed by the British to compete with Surat, which was the biggest port in Gujsrat). Once the East India Company took over, Bombay flourished; many Surti merchants (the one’s that survived the British onslaught) moved to Bombay and joined the Parsis and the British, who then drew labor from all over the country. In fact you can trace the fall of Surat and the concomitant rise of Bombay very clearly beginning with the second Anglo-Maratha war (I think in the mid-eighteenth century if memory serves me right).
ahh…im not nearly che-che enough for that…
Himanshu, that’s fine, but why not English, then? Or Klingon? (just kidding, Klingon has Punjabi-sounding words in it)
I really like Kannada 🙂 But, I will look forward to hearing Marathi 🙂
brown, thanks for the clarification. I don’t know, myself, hence the question, but I appreciate the perspective.
Just like Native Americans/African Americans were rammed with English downt their throats in United States… What’s the difference?
HMF, apologies, and no offence meant. malayalam is actually my second-favourite sounding desi language. and i like its intonations, the cadence. it helps that i am also far more able to understand it than marathi. honestly, i found marathi extremely hard to follow, and i generally have a good ear for languages. i suppose it depends on your other linguistic influences as well.
there is no difference. thats my point….it is not a good thing.
why replicate an american mistake in an indian context?
PindaUs, I am working on the assumption that to make it big in Hindi cinema you usually have to have a combination of good looks and acting ability ( Though sometimes I think the acting ability is negotiable!)
Empirical observation in any case suggests that cine stars have to be easy on the eye whether Hindi/Telugu/ Tamil /Hollywood/wherever
Does anyone know anything about how this issue has been dealt with in Mexico? They’ve got something like 62 languages there, and there are lots of people who don’t know Spanish or speak it as a second language. At my job (I work for a translation firm) Mixteco in particular comes up a lot, but I just don’t know enough about Mexican history/politics to compare it with India…
not sure she made it that big in cinema relative to her (better than most) acting ability. i think thats precisely because she doesnt look like some amazing surgically altered s*xpot.
Sridevi’s origin may be Telugu, but she was raised in TN. Perhaps there’s something different in the drinking water there that encourages girls to get into the movie biz?
As for Tabu, I wonder if she speaks Telugu, actually, since she is part of the Hyderabadi Muslim community, many of whom only speak Urdu and do not speak Telugu. She probably does, though, because she’s actually an actress who’s in the biz to act.
Ok, um, who the heck is Farah?
I was talking about none of the actresses in Telugu films being Telugu, not about the success of Telugu actresses in Hindi cinema. Yes, there are a lot of southern Indian actresses who are successful up north, but even among them, most are Tamil, and if they are Telugu, they are the exceptions.
429, I think there are many dialects of (native) indian languages in Mexico. India on the other hand has 18+ “official” languages. If you count all languages and dialects it goes up to more than a thousand in India.
So India should adopt a policy of genocide and enslavement? I really don’t think this logic makes sense, sorry.
Actually, maybe this will showcase my ignorance further, but I think it is REALLY hard to pick up southern languages as a northern language speaker. I bet the same follows for a southern speaker trying to pick up a northern language. It’s easier for me to understand grasps of Bangla or Gujarati than it is for me to understand Tamil or Kannada. Whenever my mamajis bust into Tamil they may as well be speaking Khmer, because I can’t follow anything. I never can grasp anything southern, no matter how often I hear it (I’m also a visual learner, so maybe that plays a role)?
Totally off topic, I’ve always thought it would be cool to learn Cajun, but it’s only taught at LSU 🙁
PS, you are correct. Languages, cultures, societies are not static. But when we lose a language (e.g. Punjabi, Malayalam), we also lose a whole body of literature (fiction, non-fiction) and movies that were expressed in that language. I think that a translation can never do justice to the original language in which the book was written.
Oh you are so right about this. There is so much Malayalam literature that when I hear my dad discuss sounds completely foreign to me. How sad that all this is could be lost or underappreciated in the almost need to acquire good English. I understand Amartya Sen’s point about preserving something out of fear of change, but one can also preserve certain aspects so as to be in touch with the literature while also welcoming change – it’s not an either-or situation. But I also see many people (desis and non-desis) making serious attempts to learn regional Indian languages, so there’s hope. 🙂
I love what you said here. Yes, I think such a rich cultural, literary tradition should be preserved since it is not continued in the same vein. Hopefully Malayalees, even with their language changes, will study old Malayalam literature like we study Shakespeare now.
Used to be the case. It was exploited to great effect by T Ballz and his saffron goons. The cool set used to refer to Maharashtrians as Ghatis. Nowadays saying that word in wrong neighbourhood could earn you a face full of fists. Hopefully the pendulum has swung somewhere between extreme chauvinism and spinelessness. Marathi literature and theater is quite robust. There’s a healthy give and take, especially between Marathi and Gujarathi theater.
I could fix that 🙂
but not dbds. that should give you a hint. it is not an accident that “confederate south india” is just for abd’s. there are very strong economic, political and demographic compulsions that keep the south within india. india has been progressively integrating remarkably well over the last 60 years. practically every family that has migrated has also crossed state borders, and economic compulsions today dictate cross-fertilization that centuries before could not bring about.
there are issues about language, regionalism etc., but they are just that—periods of self correction that india is fairly good at. there are bigger problems in the north east and kashmir to be sure, but i would hardly call india as “barely” sticking together. “nationality” in india may be unfamiliar to the western hemisphere (no common language, culture, religion, history, lot of bickering), doesn’t mean it isn’t valid.
And most Native American languages are dead or endangered now, and their people were slaughtered in a massive genocide and their cultures obliterated one by one. I mean, how is it unreasonable for anyone whose language is being threatened to look at that example and not feel fear?
Humour based on physical/economic/social features is also considered crude, maybe this is because the populace (As echoedabove) considers itself ugly on average.
Didn’t we have a huge discussion on the caste comedy in Tamil movies….I don’t see this in Malayalam movies, but I was told its prevalent in the rest of India but not in Kerala.
Tabu’s elder sister who also acted in a lot of forgettable teeny bopper Hindi Cinema but was very good looking ( she comes in TV serials now,I think!)
Agreed you are probably speaking of Telugu cinema of which I know not much.But I always admired women from Andhra as I think they are really good looking
I would consider Tabu ( muslim or not) to be definitely part of Telugu speaking people
Himanshu, I have to disagree. As a Hindi-speaking person who grew up in the north, I have no desire to force people in the south (or anywhere else) to learn Hindi and will oppose any attempts by the government. And, I don’t think everyone speaking Hindi would lead to “some sort of national unity.” That’s what happens in dictatorships, not in democracies.
does anyone else see a giant grey square covering up comments 281-283, or is it just me?
why the heck do people get so worked up about language? i mean…its a tool for effective communication. if i could speak hindi, french, italian, chineese etc…i would be all over that..
i realize i’m extremely late to this east coast/non-vacationer’s party, but since i complained about the language issue earlier, i thought i’d expand a bit. just so we’re clear, i actually speak 6 languages with varying competency — i would say i’m fluent in 3, and can “get by” in the others, i.e. travel without making a fool of myself. i love learning languages, pick them up easily, and prefer to converse in the local language(s) when i’m travelling. which is why, last year, i started to learn hindi, after my first trip to north india proved to be somewhat stressful on account of having zero hindi skills. my mother’s knowledge of devanagari, her remnants of 9th grade hindi, and wild hand gestures are what got us by. i was frankly surprised to find english was of almost no help at all. the language barrier, along with the much more open harassment of women, had me feeling disoriented and longing for the south, where at least i am equipped to tell of lecherous men in a couple languages. but i digress. i have no problem learning hindi, or with hindi being taught in schools (note previous love of languages). my dad is familiar with ~7 indian languages, my mom can scrape by in most south indian languages, and some of my aunts, who never completed college, are fluent in tamil, kannada, telegu, hindi, and marathi. they just picked it up because of moving around or interacting with local other-language speakers. so i’m clearly surrounded by people who do value language as a communication tool, and are not stuck in some crazy “tamil only” world (and i do actually know plenty of those types). my “issue” with hindi is the assumption made on the part of strangers that i speak hindi. rarely do people ask what language i speak; they just jump in at top-speed hindi, and it honestly takes me a considerable amount of effort to convince them that i do not speak hindi (ok, now i do speak a bit, but whatever). it’s irritating that they take our common indian-ness as an invitation to converse with me (usually asking all sorts of inappropriate personal questions), but by wildly attempting to coax hindi out of me, they are implicitly communicating that indian = hindi-speaking. sometimes, depending on age, you can add bollywood-loving to that as well. and i’ll be honest — for someone who comes from a region with extremely rich linguistic and cultural history, i find myself asking what kind of moron has never even heard of tamil or can’t identify madras (chennai, excuse me) on a map. so my issue, really, is not with hindi or the promotion of hindi itself, but with ignorant people.
Just because this was fun.
Nala,
AARGH! Who was # 2 and # 5 ?
And do you really think that Kareena and Abhishek are not easy on the eye? 🙂
now…this is only tangentially unrelated…but…
how common is “the casting couch” in south indian cinema? Does that influence the look of actresses?
Apologies for what?
PindA, I need to know what Im dealing with here. Keeping in line with the linguistic theme.. What language did uncle owen want threepio to speak before he purchased him ?
i think kapoor grls are ugly. i think peopoe like them because they have light skin and the last name “kapoor”.
moisture evaporator language.
And when that happens, people will suddenly wake up, and desperately try to revive Malayalam. Just like they’re trying (unsuccessfully) to do with Irish in Ireland. They even have Irish-medium schools in some areas, trying to raise kids speaking Irish as their first language from day one…with mixed results.
Yes, I’ve spent a lot of time in Ireland and it is something that the Irish government is trying to resuscitate. Grants for anything created in Irish Gaelic is very availabe, street and city signs are in English and Irish Gaelic. So interesting for me to hear old irishmen speak it. But there is a huge difference between what happened in Ireland and their loss of Irish and Kerala. Irish was violently taken away from the people by the British. The change in Kerala is slowly happening, mostly b/c of probably English dominance in a globalized world, the access to high education levels of most Malayalees also gives them the opportunity and ambition to study outside of India, and of course being part of a country that doesn’t operate on one dominant South Asian language also encourages English, since throughout India, I think English is spoken.
Really? I would give a limb to look like any of them 🙂
One man’s food is another man’s poison
Camille, I meant nearly all African-Amerians/Native Americans understand/speak English. As do most citizens in U.S. As have nearly all immigrants of this country.
Wouldn’t it be great when we can introduce ourselves just as “an Indian”, at least when outside India, rather than from XYZ state? Balkanization of India should be prevented and all Indians must and should work towards preserving it.
sarah, I meant successful nation, i.e. First world, something India should aspire to become within the next 50 years. I somehow don’t think Indians want their nation to be known as “Mexico of Asia”.
dont worry. i think i’d like you better than a 1 armed kapoor sister…