Oh, like I could pass THIS up:
I hear all of you on the drink-buying morass but I want a thread about whether I’d be considered the biggest ho alive for putting out on the first date. How about the second? More respectable?
I’m going through a dry spell and I’m in the mood to cut to the chase. I’m usually reasonably virtuous. Would I be seen as sensual or skanky? Would my amorous inclinations kill any chances of having a real relationship? [sm]
Of course they would, and remember, choose your orifice adventure wisely, so you can still be extra you-know-what, like olive oil…and I don’t mean light.
::
When I was in college I was classified as a “ho” not just for being a Dirty Girl (Nothing goes down faster than an anchor!™) but…wait for it…wait for it…
.
.
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…for wearing leather pants.
It was December of 1996 and I was at someone’s lame-ass birthday thing in Davis. I was sick, in the middle of winter. My then-boyfriend had dropped me off at this Charlie Foxtrot of a night-out via his bike. So I wore leather pants as well as my helmet. And I was told, during a moment I shall never, EVER forget–
@$$#0!#: “Do you want to know why everyone thinks you’re a whore? Look at how you dress.”
I looked down at a ribbed turtleneck sweater and aforementioned leather pants, WHICH WERE MY BOYFRIEND’S, by the way, so by no means were they skin-tight.
Me: “But…I was cold.”
@$$#0!#: “Hope it was worth ruining what’s left of your reputation.”
Seriously, I remember this, then I type this and then I think to myself, I wish this were fiction. You desi kids don’t know how good you have it these free and lawless days…
::
We’ve all done things we regret; we all have rules. What’s the desi or better yet, the sepia rule on gettin’ down on the first, second, fiftieth date? I-bankers (and the straight-haired vomen who love them) want to know.
This hiatus is turning out to be a summer of inquiry; Sepia Mutiny ’07…all the frivolous and embarrassing questions you always wanted to ask a plethora of over-educated, witty South Asians– but never had the opportunity to pose. Until now.
At least you didn’t get a hiding.
Between you and Rahul, I’m going to need botox, from grinning so much.
If i did so, i’m pretty sure that the Gods of Gothram City would immediately report said infraction to my family who would then dispose of me, the Filmi Tam way (despite my award-winning protestations).
I suppose it might depend on whether your beau considers you Fit Or Fat.
Seriously Anna, we should have this Fit Or Fat Foto as a recurring (if not regular) theme.
at least that’ll be helluva threesome. you’ll in splits in more ways than one.
i meant: you’ll be “in splits” in more ways than one.
I think the general rule, brown or not, is that if you want some and you’re a grown-ass woman, then that’s your business, BUT expecting a relationship out of a hookup or a one night stand isn’t reasonable thinking. Hooking up on the first date is not the smartest idea, IMO. I mean I know a lot of respectable people who when they want some attention during a dry spell or whatnot, they get a booty call, handle business and call it a day.
I think there was a SATC episode about the perils of trying to turn a f@#$ buddy into a boyfriend. It’s not so simple.
That being said, whether your’re brown, blue, green or polka-dot, there is nothing SCARIER than a woman who is sexually frustrated. The world would be a better place if people just got laid on a regular basis.
Anna, the same people who probably called you a whore for wearing leather pants are going to think i’m a straight hangari for making these statements;)
Oh please! No puns about coitus in the botox.
Anna, was your ex-boyfriend South Asian or not? Curious to see if it would have mattered.
So you know, I don’t do threesomes until the fourth date.
muralimannered, way to pick up the baton of a orotund, oratorical, overblown Sivaji Ganesan and rumble along with it!
(And as to the normative part of the discussion, for me, this entire issue also falls in the realm of “silly politics that is asymptotically irrelevant”. I don’t make any judgments at all based on which date the woman would “get down” on. Of course, I am assuming that this happens before an asymptotic point, because the alternative would just be quite painful. To be clear, this entire discussion is hypothetical since I am a good TamBram Iyer boy and the question of hippity-dippity/hanky-panky before lawful matrimony is out of the question).
ANNA, I can(not) believe someone said that to you. WTF? Man, screw people.
There are rules?
This is so true on so many levels. Also, speaking of body sizes and fitness, sex is a GREAT (#131) way to get in exercise.
By the way, SM is quickly ascending as my fave sex-talk next to the Good Vibes columns. [NSFW, but funnily enough, apparently “August is Anal” month]
Is the “desi angle” in this reflected in whether one is or izzn’t a ho based on alleged “desi standards”?
I suggest Dan Savage as a better place to pose the question… if one feels that the answers from others about one’s hoochiness makes any difference.
Well, I suppose it all depends on your values and what you want in a ‘real relationship’. Your amorous inclinations will not kill your chances of having a real relationship, but it may make it more difficult to identify a real relationship partner.
Ultimately, the question of a rule about which date to ‘put out’ is simply another aspect of that whole ‘game’ thing. Trying to divine such rules is terrible way to avoid talking about important issues. Frankly, I don’t understand how one would be willing to have sex with someone with whom one is not comfortable talking about having sex.
Ultimately though, if you have sex with someone on the first date, you’ll leave the impression of being someone who will have sex on the first date. Some will find this liberating, some will find it a turn-off. Personally, I don’t think it’s wise.
is actually a position well-described in the kamasutra, and it has to with
and is especially timely since
You can but try–and the Crying Man himself set the bar so MANY times.
I’m with Rahul on the irrelevancy issue–it’s not like I’d be crass enough to enquire after a date’s sexual history–let alone a girlfriend…in spanish…
It takes talent to come up with threads that have mutineers frothing at the mouth and posting hundreds, even a thousand+, comments. Check out the various threads that came and went on SM and you’d notice the ones initiated by Anna end up with an order more traffic (comments, etc.) SM’s own Helen Gurley Brown!
This must certainly qualify for some award or recognition of sorts.
These last two posts on whether a random headless woman is skinny and now whether someone should hook up on the first or second date are in my thought a debasement to sepia mutiny.
I’m down with the funny/social/entertainment but not only are these “issues” superficial and personal, neither of has anything remotely to do with sepia, mutiny or being brown. Why don’t you just go to seventeen.com or maxim.com to figure all this out. Or maybe google “indian porn” or be a bit edgy and go for the voice or nerve. Do we really want to perpetuate body image issues or antiquated sexual attitudes in this space?
My advice is: form your own opinions about your body image, sexual preferences and decisions or blog about it on your own personal blog. And keep sepia for real! I’m down with making a version of this dialogue sepia specific but at least frame it with something less trite than first or second date or am i hot or not.
I hope this don’t get deleted, because I love this site and just want it to thrive. Maybe it’ll help if I add:
Of course she’s frickin skinny, and of course you should give it up on the first date if you want to. It’s frickin 2007.
If you’re in the mood, take precautions and enjoy.
We don’t delete valid opinions, only personal attacks.
Men are men, regardless of skin tone…. Sure, we all want sex right away and often….but we are more interested and intrigued by those women that are more difficult (not impossible) to attain.
paraphrasing from my response in the other post :
if you want sex, ‘put out’ on the first date. if you want more, well, that’s where the opinions vary 🙂 it would be interesting to know male perspectives on this. to put your conception of ‘slut’ (hate that word) into perspective, you should survey how the law school kids kick it – a good deal just cut to the chase without the wining-dining bit. sure, it minimizes actual dating (law school = 3 year hiatus for some) but it prevents those dry spells.
ANNA – that is ridiculous – all haters.
one of my best friends in law school slept with several men, but never discussed it with her own friends, until one day we realised that pretty much everybody in the school remembered every guy she had slept with – it was obvious that some of the men were doing some talking. anyway, these were always just one-night stands (she never dated anybody until our last year), and i assured her that it was OK to have casual sex while she was waiting for a proper relationship. apparently, the casual sex had a real effect on the possibility of having a relationship, since one of my guy friends told me that, ‘she’s a great girl, but none of us would ever go out with her knowing her sexual history.’ it was awful. eventually, she ended up with a guy who was at first a one night stand, and then became more. but just knowing about the male perspective made me feel so sad. and angry.
but does attaining her carnal knowledge mean that you have necessarily attained knowledge of her otherwise? if anything, sex really early on means that she hasn’t given you something/everything that actually means something to her for the long-term…she may be willing to do that in the long term, but i wouldn’t equate her having sex with you having ‘attained’ her with ease – usually the other stuff is far, far more difficult to attain…
but just knowing about the male perspective made me feel so sad.
you had it right when you said perspectives. there’s a lot of diversity. the main issue i think where i am wont to generalize is to heap contempt on double standards.
p.s. remember a lot of us are hypochondriacs.
razib, sorry, i should have stated that differently – that male perspective . i guess i was just upset that so many guys thought that way, even though i know so many who don’t. because i have heard that particular perspective the most, i wanted to know what the range of other perspectives was.
also, some people fetishize sex with virginity cults and “it is so much better when you wait” (forever it seems). there are other people who have sex like a glass of water. personally i have a hard time grokking either perspective, and i think a lot of people agree with me. i don’t judge personally, we all have our different values and priorities and what not, and, i think some differences are also innate in terms of libido, inhibition, etc.
Calm down comment # 17. These are worldly topics that need to be discussed not just for their lightheartedness but also for the insight they provide into the contemporary social mores of South Asians. This helps us South Asians to understand our current or prospective mates better. Such discussions could lead to more fulfilling relationships. And also I need to get my heterosexual anal coitus survey off the ground. So shut up.
I’m going through a dry spell and I’m in the mood to cut to the chase. I’m usually reasonably virtuous. Would I be seen as sensual or skanky? Would my amorous inclinations kill any chances of having a real relationship?
As a straight guy I particularly like it when my date makes the first move. There’s no virtue in holding back your desires. Let them desires go insane. I’ll only speak for myself but if I like you I won’t let your fuking me on the first date get in the way of a real relationship. I promise you. I really do.
I used to come to SM to read what was thought provoking, topical, and what was not available elsewhere. This stuff about skinny-or-not women, putting it out on the first or second date, “hos” and such seem puerile and hardly worth a visit to SM. The hundreds or thousand+ comments hardly matters…
jesus krist people, f**king page down or go read something else. no one has captured your computer and forced you to read stuff. don’t click on the title in the RSS feed. it really isn’t hard.
Here’s a perspective from an awesomely goodlooking desi guy (that’s me yes..) There was this girl who always bumping into me, giggling and giving me hints to take her out. I acted hard to get with her, and always took her for granted. Looking back, she was great looking and probably would have been my top two gals in my dating history (The top…of course my wife). Then there was this other girl, that wasn’t bowled over by my looks, was dismissive, and I tried my best to get her to go out with me. Again looking back, the second girl did not have anything over the first girl. Its all about the chase. If you throw yourself at someone, men will treat you like dirt for the rest of your relationship…cuz its the first impressions that are lasting. Of course, if its just a fuck you want…then gofo it.
At first this was lighthearted, but now it’s annoying. If you don’t want to read the posts, then don’t read the posts. It’s really not that complicated. The mutineers are on summer break, and if that means more “lighthearted” posts, then suck it up and deal. If you don’t like it, create your own blog, go wild! Is it really worth the effort to log in and comment if you’re soooo fed up of its childishness, anyway?
Jeeez, go grab some lemonade or sangria and chill out!
Yes. Because this is all women want. To be “attained” by men. Personally when I want to get laid, I just want to get laid. And not in an insecure way either. In an ‘I want to get laid’ kinda way. And surprise surprise!!! Most women beyond 18 fully understand that men, brown or otherwise, have this cavemanish tendency to equate a woman who sleeps with you ASAP as a NOT suitable baby making machine. Cool by me. If a man’s not evolved enough to understand that women (Yes! Even BROWN women!!) are sexual creatures who sometimes just want a piece, then he’s not evolved enough for me. Or most of the sexy, smart, strong brown sisters I know.
It’s it their blog? They can write whatever they feel like. I think its one thing to disagree with a post as to its content, I mean sometimes that is what its all about: do we agree or disagree and why. But I’m not sure why people think any of the authors can’t write on whatever topic they like? They can talk about bollywood news all day long if they want, it really is their choice!
A couple comment, in polite and constructive ways, sharing their concerns about the content and direction of some new threads. And what do we see in reaction? Rants and raves to chill out, drink sangria or lemonade, fucking page down and read something else and so on.
Did it occur to you, Camille and Razib, to first practice what you preach others to do? If you can’t deal with someone sharing their opinions about why they don’t like certain posts, have you considered drinking the sangria or paging down? Or do you need to be told so in the very language you seem to like?
When educated south asians have to use words like “ho” and such, and especially when a woman uses it herself I feel it’s time to stand up and speak out against that. You might like it, espouse it, and that’s your prerogative. Just as it’s mine to protest against it.
As for sex on the first date, I think its perfectly acceptable, but unreasonable to EXPECT a relationship out of it. I think there are two or three paths to take; friends, relationship, or fuck buddies. Although there can be some cross over, I think once you’ve chosen a path its hard to change course. IMHO.
I think whether you hook up with someone on the first date depends on one criteria and only one criteria, unless you are just looking to get down with someone, and that is connectivity. If you connect with the person. That should be the deciding factor. And also, to reference megathread, I can visualize a difference in expectations at the end of the evening if the brown girl is dating a brown man or a white man. does anyone agree. I feel that there is more pressure to put out on the first date, at least kissing the guy, in an inter-racial relationship. any thoughts?
I think it could be argued that this was not a constructive, nor a polite, comment.
I’m not going to engage in an argument with you, CosmoNOT, but I do think it’s worth taking a look at what you wrote, and also calming down a bit. Neither razib nor I was particularly rude, although we may have both been impatient since yours is the fifth comment in the last two hours to this effect. And I do practice what I preach — I love both lemonade, and sangria 🙂
Did it occur to you, Camille and Razib, to first practice what you preach others to do? If you can’t deal with someone sharing their opinions about why they don’t like certain posts, have you considered drinking the sangria or paging down?
there’s a difference between meta & non-meta, so of course i won’t f**king shut up. not all opinions are qualitatively equivalent. for example, if abhi posted about how republicans were anti-brown, i wouldn’t be, “how dare you post such a thing!” i would disagree with the content of his post. i think it is pretty obvious by the number of, and the relative good nature, of these comment threads that there is a strong demand. i’ve been reading this blog for 3 years, and i know from long experience that all meta does is drive threads into acrimony and useless recursive analysis (like this!!!). you won’t affect any change, except for throwing a thread off topic. but hey, that might be your point. bravo & touche!
Hey, Anna, thanks for the unexpected mega-answer. I eagerly await the sepia wisdom…remember, the fate of my next date hangs in the balance 🙂
and “CosmoNOT,” great that you stand on your anonymous high horse. typical for meta critics. you don’t blog yourself, but you know exactly how other people should run their blogs.
well, I have a hunch that a lot of guys on this page are at the age or around the age of fatherhood. And as a someone who is looking at the prospects of potentially having daughters, I would not personally want them to hook up with someone on a first date unless there was a strong connection present. A simple kiss on the cheek will suffice. Any other guys agree?
If you wanna get laid, get laid. People shouldn’t judge. Of course some people do… but I don’t think that’s a reason to stop hooking up. I had sex on the first date with an i-banker type. I just could not control myself… too much chemistry. We got married. He didn’t judge me. But then again, I wouldn’t f*ck the kind of guy who would. Of course the sex was pretty glorious;)
So…apparently, the people who email me are different from the people who email other mutineers.
Some of you are “uncomfortable” with the direction this blog is taking. That’s fine and I respect that. It is different from some of the things we’ve done in the past, I was trying something new. From what I heard, what the majority of you wanted most or were most concerned about, regarding our hiatus, was a sudden absence of something you really enjoyed, which you really looked forward to, daily. I was trying to do a little something to address that. Not everyone agrees with my decision to do so and I can accept that.
I thing is, I respect the value of dialogue and how people feel safe here– safe enough to discuss things they are aching to, with others who are thoughtful, smart and often, funny. 🙂
I am touched by the number of you who write to me privately and express angst about the most personal of worries– the “is she skinny” post didn’t come from a vacuum. It came from a mega-thread which inspired so many reactions, one of which was so anguished, I did what I could to tease out an answer, to inspire a conversation that would be useful, on different levels.
It’s unfair to act like there wasn’t a reason for that post.
It’s unfair to blame this blog for my experiments. Please stop writing letters of complaint to Abhi et al. They had no idea where my whims would take me.
I’m going to close this thread soon and move it to my personal blog.
I’m going to have more threads like this on my personal blog, so that people who are interested, still have a space to speak their minds, where it is safe and where someone is taking responsibility by moderating.
Sepia Mutiny won’t have to suffer through such low-brow fun any longer.
See you on HERstory, which will soon be your story, if you need it to be.
To the girl who is in a quandary – put out. At least you get that elephant out of the room. If the sex is great, you can put out on the second date as well (or not). If every woman put out on the first date, life would be so much simpler. Strangely I find that as I grow older I tend to become friends with the women who put out on the first date.
we love you anna 😉
(for all the thousands who don’t say the unsaid because it doesn’t need sayin’)
40
No
…sigh…
Obviously I’m biased, but I wish you wouldn’t move the thread. Where else am I going to find enlightened South Asian sex advice?
booo!!
what the hell?
Can’t we just leave things the way they’re going? I understand the whole need for a dialogue… but why can’t you just blog about what you want to and ignore the people that insist on believing that educated South Asians (or just people) can’t talk about more than India Shining or some such?
I love this posts. I love the experiment. I actually prefer posts like this.
To all the people who don’t know how to have fun: thanks for being a bunch of whiners and ruining the fun. what the fug? like someone forced you to read the post…
Anna, don’t be too down on yourself.
Razib, in your experience, do you think people forget they’re guests when launching a ‘critique’ of bloggers? The internet has provided liberty that previously didn’t exist (voicing a opinion sitting at home on a comp). Without the physical surrounding reminding one that you’re a guest (like being at someone’s house), self discipline becomes critical IMHO.