Yesterday’s NYTimes featured a profile of Harvinder Anand, the new mayor of Laurel Hollow (a village on Long Island). Anand is the latest member of what the Times describes as “a small but recently growing number of Indian-American officeholders [that] has been getting elected in communities across the nation where they are the tiniest of minorities.”
Harvinder Anand, the new mayor of this Long Island village of multimillion-dollar homes, private beaches and yachtsmen, is, like many other residents, a successful business executive, a boater and a connoisseur of world travel. His Sikh turban and beard drew double takes when he moved to the community about 10 years ago, but it does not get many anymore. At least not among the locals…Nonetheless, Mr. Anand’s way of standing out in the crowd of Bermuda-shorts-and-loafer-wearing people who elected him in June — he ran unopposed — attracted television crews from American and Indian networks to his inauguration on July 2… Link]
<
p>Other examples of Indian-American officeholders mentioned in the article include a host of people we have covered in past posts on SM: Upendra J. Chivukula, Jay Goyal, Nikki Randhawa Haley, and Kumar P. Barve. All of them (comprised of both Reps and Dems) actually called to congratulate Anand. How is that for identity politics?
Some are Democrats and some Republicans, but they all share a high level of education and a crossover election appeal. It is a testament, perhaps, to the fact that, compared with other immigrant groups, Indians tend to speak English when they arrive and are ready to assume a place in the middle class. [Link]
<
p>And of course there is also the Governor Elect (for all practical purposes) of Louisiana (he didn’t call Anand):
United States Representative Bobby Jindal, Republican of Louisiana, a second-generation Indian-American who was elected from a district whose population is 1.5 percent Asian, narrowly lost his bid for governor in 2003 and recently began a campaign for this year’s election for governor — in a state where Indian-Americans account for about 1 percent of the population. [Link]
<
p>Part of the reason that Indian American candidates do so well (politically) outside of ethnic enclaves is that many never embed themselves in one in the first place. This is in contrast to other Asians:
In contrast, Chinese, Japanese and Korean immigrants have largely settled in cities on the East and West Coasts and in Hawaii, which is mostly where they have been elected to public office. [Link]
<
p>It seems like Anand, like many other recent candidates, is adopting the Bloomberg/Schwarzenegger political philosophy:
“At the end of the day, I am a businessman,” said Mr. Anand, who ran without party affiliation in the village election but calls himself a Reagan Republican. “I believe in efficiency and cost-effectiveness…” [Link]
You can bet that there will be more Indian Americans running in 2008 and that we shall cover them all.
This is Mcgovern’s response to Cheney’s criticism of today’s Dems b/c they don’t support the Iraq war – love what he says: let me provide the link:
http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/la-oe-mcgovern24apr24,0,4084076.story
Louiecypher – I will answer you at length in a little bit; but for now- You bring up some good points – it’s important to understand a country’s, president’s actions without the hindsight we have now.
I can give a lot of “charity” to Kennedy, FDR, Truman, and even Johnson, but when you get to Reagan what charity is there to give. He had the evidence of Vietnam ; there were plenty of political leaders (in Congress) who disagreed with him. I see him, much like Bush, as a fear-mongerer and that is why he was able to get re-elected.
louciecypher, I think it is more than fair to judge Cold War presidents for their ignorance and for the disastrous consequences of many of their foreign policy decisions. The Allende-Castro connection is tenuous, at best. Whether or not Allende took a photo with Castro (which is totally reasonable in the context of Latin American politics at the time) is completely immaterial to the gross over-reaction of the U.S. I also think it’s naive to think that a photo set off the violence in Central and South America when American business had such a vested interest in politics playing their way. The U.S. was more interested in maintaining its influence/control of Latin America than it was in democracy, and we’ve seen similar attitudes (from the U.S.) in other foreign policy decisions as well. I don’t know how it’s possible to look at that time without looking at the incredible amount of bloodshed worldwide.
Any comments/insights on the Bengal scene; the other leftist bastion ?
PS, Perhaps it would help if you named the latin american leftist movements that fit your above description. Shining path? Sadinista? Castro? Allende?
PS Please tell us me how you come to the conclusion that Lt.Col. Oliver North USMC. Ret. is ethnocentric. I believe Vic answered you well on President Reagan. Ditto to everything he wrote. On what do you base your hatred for the most beloved President since Kennedy and the most sucessful in my lifetime?
How many times do I have to explain the functions of the three branches of government and who allocates and spends money. This is elementary civics. But then again how can anyone who listens to the likes of McGovern and Chomsky be taken seriousy by any stretch
.
Indeed it will be an interesting 2008 election. There will be no dearth of some real action on the foreign policy front. With Obama’s recent “gaffes” on India & Pakistan, an entire website on India-policy of the presidential candidates and the recent amusing “Shut Up” advice from the State department to the presidential aspirants !! Also mutineers keep a tab on the Issue Trackers for Campaign 2008
I was trying to create a middle ground on Reagan, but now that I see that is not possible here it goes: I believe Reagan to be Kalki, the photographic evidence is here & here
Now Pardesi Gori can do darshan at the Reagan library in Simi Valley with little chance of encountering an amorous desi man (you behave Dinesh D’Souza !)
Rajesh, this is hardly a logic-based counter to what PS wrote. I’m not trying to stir trouble, but your love for Reagan is divorced from any criticism of his policies or what he did. Whether or not he is the “most beloved” and “most successful” president is certainly debateable, and I think for every ardent Reagan-lover you meet, you will meet an equal number of individuals who feel anything but love for him or his policies. It’s also a bit naive to think that because Congress has the power of the purse that in some way its actions were divorced from the President’s policy agenda. Additionally, if you’re going to look at what was happening economically in the U.S. (and worldwide) during that time, it’s crucial to look at what was happening in securities enforcement and with monetary policy vis-a-vis the Fed. It’s not just elementary civics — the political and economic landscape of the U.S. is deeply complicated. Reducing it to piece-meal bits in order to allocate “blame” or “success” doesn’t really do anyone any kind of service when it comes to issue analysis. As is the case with many systems of governance/production (including capitalism), the nature of the system is to diffuse blame/responsibility.
Camille, you must be one of those sour people that does not like mornings.
PS..Kerala’s so called increased standard of living might have something to do with the fact that 22% of state’s income is from remittance from Gulf (taken from Center of development Studies), rather than economic growth environment created by leftist policies. East Bengal and Calcutta sort of represent what we can expect from Leftist policies. The productivity of all socialist/leftist government goes down, and the fear during Cold war was that the potential Central American communist regimes would become dependent of USSR…and lets not forget that USSR wanted exactly that. Dependency is the prime opium of Socialism. You mentioned the Sweden utopia. Read this article on how leftist policies are destroying it. Link for PJ
Rahul, I wasn’t born when Morning in America happened.
Just kidding! In addition to hating morning, I hate evening, the afternoon, and most midnights. I also hate puppies, children, freedom, and America. =)
PS..Kerala’s so called increased standard of living might have something to do with the fact that 22% of state’s income is from remittance from Gulf (taken from Center of development Studies)
Yes, and….
rather than economic growth environment created by leftist policies
Like I said, there’s many types of leftist ideologies – Kerala’s (the many types) hasn’t turned into a totalitarian regime where one person controls everything and they are going to shoot down the US; As can be seen by the movement of people within Kerala it is an open society. I’ve read that there are some major problems with Kerala’s economy – I’m glad people can openly critique this and decide for themselves what works in their society.
But my main point is – let Keralites decide what is good economic policy (let Swedish people decide for themselves) – not the US; Kerala’s leftist groups (the noncorrupt ones) came to power in a very different society than the US. Issues of caste, religion, colonization, language – all these things came to play to make people support leftist groups. Different history, cutlure, society can produce different paths in achieving civil rights….that is what the US foreign policy under Reagan should have realized. I can’t imagine if the CIA and US govt had gotten more involved with India and communist govts in Kerala and destroyed the land redistribution and anti-caste policies and funding into education that are now part of Kerala’s society (b/c I know at one time the CIA was involved with trying to rid Kerala of its first democratically-elected “communist” govt.)
IMO,REagan was suave and slick with words – he painted his horrendous foreign policy that supported so many dictators as fighting for freedom. It is unfortunate that so many leaders, while they may be highly intelligent and wise in how they conduct policy, cannot win elections b/c they are not good with the public persona. So like Ardy said, communications and media is definitely important to get the point across.
Hmmmm niiice.. I am soo gonna get this printed on a T-shirt, with slight modification. I hate Puppies, Children, Freedom and Liberty Anyways everybody knows that… Freedom and Liberty = America 😀
I debated myself re: including America (since god knows this comment may come back and bite me in the future), but I figured if one is going to be super-sarcastic, she should go all the way.
Rajesh,
Why do I despise Reagan’s policies? – b/c it caused destruction to so many grassroots movements (which started out peaceful) in the name of the illusionary evil Soviet empire. How the hell can you admire him?
I can understand more the “evil Soviet thinking” in the 50s or ’60s, but by the time you get to the ’80s I see this as fear-mongering – just like what Bush/Rumsfeld did in conflating 9-11 and invading Iraq. There were plenty of politicians at that time who, even in the early ’80s, learning lessons from Vietnam, disagreed with REagan.
I find politics pretty complicated – and your way of thinking hearkens back to the 2nd grade when we first learned about the 3 branches of govt – that’s just not the reality though.
As far as Congress being the purse-string, (besides the fact that the President can veto budget initiatives) – the 1980s-Congress is accountable too but not as much as Reagan. To me this is b/c most of the foreign policy and slashing of govt funding of social services came from Reagan and the neoconservatives and many Congressmembers who disagreed with him had to play politics. Like most political leaders they had to sometimes go along with something they disagreed with, otherwise b/c of Reagan’s popularity, risk losing an election back in their respective states and have another neoconservative come in their seat in Congress.
Of course sometimes when Congress did vote against funding – well Reagan still got his illegal ways such as the Iran-Contra affair.
Unfortunately many Congressmen had to <b>play politics to REagan’s popularity which IMO was based on Reagan’s use of his fear-mongering to rally the American people (kindof what happened when America re-elcted George Bush- he gained strength by playing on the fears of his constituents). Reagan also really played to the constituents of the South who normally would have voted democrat – his policies on abortion and anti-affirmative action, helped win him popularity in the South.
What was the other question you asked? Oh yeah, about North being ethnocentric: The foreign policy under Reagan and his neoconservatives (and North was an ardent follower) is ethnocentric b/c everything is decided according to what has worked in America. Different parts of the world have different histories and forms of oppression and people like North jump on the evil “communist” bandwagon b/c they saw everything thru American eyes. If he could have been more open-minded he might have realized there were better ways to spend tax-payer money.
n
PS: I do agree that the Communist state government produced great results in basic education and in health. Communities like the Ezhavas that were once treated like serfs are now on the intellectual & professional vanguard. But the fact that totalitarianism did not develop in Kerala does not say anything about the inclinations of Malayalee communists. Clearly the central government/army would not have sat by if Kerala rejected the Indian constitution. Vic brings up 22% of Kerala’s economy coming from the Gulf…I can guarrantee you that if the other states in the Indian republic were treated as separate countries that we would be talking about 40-50%. Half of my grandparent’s neighbors in TN are Malayalee (and I am talking about a tertiary town not on the border). The constitution keeps Kerala from engaging in the excesses that have typified Communist nations and the rest of India serves as a pressure release valve for Mallu discontent. I am not saying this to dump on Kerala , if their government became less strike happy it would overtake Karnataka, TN, and AP in terms of tech industry development within 10 years
PS: I do agree that the Communist state government produced great results in basic education and in health. Communities like the Ezhavas that were once treated like serfs are now on the intellectual & professional vanguard.
yes, i am part of the ezhava/thiyan community
But the fact that totalitarianism did not develop in Kerala does not say anything about the inclinations of Malayalee communists. Clearly the central government/army would not have sat by if Kerala rejected the Indian constitution
actually i think it does —– communism doesn’t = totalil. Communists in Kerala is just another party that tries to get elect in a democratic system that is NOT in opposition to the ideas of communism as practised by most Kerala’s communist parties.
While I bash Bush and Cheney types, I got no affection for the communists of India. Though I agree that communists in India are really socialists. I do hate the way the Bengal communists slavishly refer to China for role models. THe same politicians would not be thrilled if India really muzzled them like China does to its opposition. A lot of Indian communists are either hypocrites or clueless about what went on for real in China and the USSR. But they are not harmful. THey do not have expansionist tendencies like the Russian communists.
PS: In theory you are correct, but in practice it does seem to where it has control of entire nations (e.g. Soviet Russia & Eastern Bloc, China, Vietnam, Cuba, N. Korea etc, etc.) So we can say that either Malayalee communists are committed to democracy or that the Indian constitution makes them pragmatic. My guess that you will find party members across the spectrum
A lot of Indian communists are either hypocrites or clueless
sure as are a lot of congess or bjp people; a lot of them aren’t;
i don’t think communism was the only factor into considering kerala’s successes by the way
PS: In theory you are correct, but in practice it does seem to where it has control of entire nations (e.g. Soviet Russia & Eastern Bloc, China, Vietnam, Cuba, N. Korea etc, etc.) So we can say that either Malayalee communists are committed to democracy or that the Indian constitution makes them pragmatic. My guess that you will find party members across the spectrum
A lot of nations b/c of US foreign policy weren’t able to decide how their grassroots movements would have panned out. What would Vietnam be like if the forward-thinking Vietnamese didn’t have to first fight the French and then the Americans? What would have happened in nicaragua, in Guatamala, etc if all these areas of the world had been allowed to develop a govt system that was attune to their specific culture and history.
GujuDude, have you ever read any of Andre Beaufre’s works or Makers of Modern Strategy? I’ve only become interested in this strategy stuff in the past few weeks and was wondering if those were any good (and didn’t require too much background knowledge).
Ho Chi Minh, recently returned from the useless hipster factory that is the French university system, would have turned Vietnam into a nation of lotus eaters and the number #1 producer of pretentious art films no one watches. The Vietnamese would have to outsource to France to find low cost labor.
These countries would have come under the control of mostly “blanco” Marxist professors who after 30 years of misrule would finally see the light and privatise state assets. Their children who would have studied at Harvard and Williams would be the I-bankers who take 7% of the transaction fee (and take all the hot Manhattan desi skinny straight haired women) and sell at fire sale prices to their cronies and extended family creating a kleptocracy of castilian rather than anglo ancestry.
PS, How can you call thinking of what is in America’s best interest (as a deciding point on foreign policy) ethnocentric. If you do not agree with this being a poor choice of words and should have said nationalist then you are being ludicrous. America (USA) is not a homogenous society like China, Korea, or Japan. Colonel North is was highly respected my the mostly minority company of Marines he commanded in war out in the field as a young Lieutenant and then as Captain. He continues to be respected and loved by the Marines I know.
I think I understand why you dislike a sucessful Presidency as Reagan’s. I believe you are a Communist. The very least of which I am sure of, (from your postings) you are a Communist sympathizer. Knowng this we will just have to agree to disagree on ideological grounds.
But, PS, we know what happeened. All became representative democracies, in part because of US influence. All receive US aid, trade with the US, and American open-borders (non)-policy benefits their poorest.
Now one may argue that US influence helped some anti-democratic regimes, especially during the cold war. But since you like your politics nuanced surely you can see that the US simultaneously supported dictators while encouraging democracy and free markets. Their suppression of the more brutal totalitarian leaning leftist movements surely benefited the prospects of self-determination for Latin American people (especially in Nicargua where the sandistas were reeled in and forced to work in a democracy).
politics is complex as you like to say. and US foreign policy cannot be reduced to US big-biz interests, though it rightly plays a part (you’re not free unless you have property rights). There is more to the afghan war than a gas pipline, to give you an example. freedom, democracy, free-markets, and self-determination do play a role, as the people of the eastern bloc know all to well.
I think I understand why you dislike a sucessful Presidency as Reagan’s. I believe you are a Communist. The very least of which I am sure of, (from your postings) you are a Communist sympathizer. Knowng this we will just have to agree to disagree on ideological grounds.
Umm…okay Rajesh and yes, i def disagree with you on probably everything. What an appropriate response coming from you! so b/c I hate REagan’s foreign policy I must be a communist…that is funny! PS, How can you call thinking of what is in America’s best interest (as a deciding point on foreign policy) ethnocentric. If you do not agree with this being a poor choice of words and should have said nationalist then you are being ludicrous.
Rajesh, I just don’t get how naive your questions and statements seem to me. “Reagan is the most loved…” – I’m sorry but that’s just illogical reasoning to me. Why do you like Reagan and Ollie North so much? You do realize North broke US law — you know that whole 3rd grade civics class you cling to, about the balance of power, North kindof circumvented all the balances.
I don’t think you have a good understanding of the word ethnocentric. To have an ethnocentric foreign policy is not good for any nation, b/c we live in a very interconnected world. Instead of the thousands of American lives dying in Vietnam to fight for a vapid foreign policy, if our leaders had been less ethnocentric, it would have brought so much good to this country…and I’m sure the millions of Vietnamese who had to die.
Louiecypher – Ho Chi Minh, recently returned from the useless hipster factory that is the French university system, would have turned Vietnam into a nation of lotus eaters and the number #1 producer of pretentious art films no one watches. – that cracked me up
louiecypher #174:
brilliant colouful (and true) commentary. like the alice in wonderland reference.
Manju, I will answer you in more detail later but for now:
But, PS, we know what happeened. All became representative democracies, in part because of US influence. All receive US aid, trade with the US, and American open-borders (non)-policy benefits their poorest.i>
Didn’t you forget to mention that whatever these countries have become now, most of them went through a needless bloodbath b/c of US support. If it was your brother/sister/mother that was tortured b/c they were protesting for land redistribution I dont’ think you could so easily dismiss the bloodbath. And your statement about “because of the US” —– What makes you think that a socialist/left form of govt wouldn’t have formed in many of these latin countries that would have representative govt? how nice of the US after butchering thousands of people to now trade with these govts.
I’m sorry, I don’t mean to continue to insinuate myself into a conversation, but Manju your comments are entirely irresponsible. We have no idea what would have happened if the U.S. had not intervened, and just as you argue that these countries developed into “representative democracies, in part, because of the U.S.” others would argue that they returned to representative democracies in spite of the U.S.. The only speculation about the Sandanistas being somehow “antidemocratic” comes by way of the U.S. foreign policy propaganda machine. We have no idea if they were “antidemocratic” at all; they were popularly elected, and their rise to power was certainly more democratic than the U.S.’s policy of instituting autocratic dictators. The harsh reality of democracy is that you can’t opt into it when you like who’s in power and then try to coerce the outcome when you don’t. For all we know, Nicaragua and Guatemala would have developed into thriving economies WITHOUT suffering through mass displacement and warfare. I’m just shocked that people discuss these conflicts as though they were small “interventions” — these were brutal, awful, violent wars that could, and probably should, have been avoided.
Have you spoken to the survivors and refugees of the wars in Nicaragua, El Salvador, Chile, and Guatemala? Their viewpoint is not the same as yours, regardless of whether they voted for the Contras or the Sandanistas. The U.S. has done such a great job of vilifying any “leftist” or “Socialist” movement that it is unwilling to accept the (democratic) victory of such movements and campaigns. Half the time I wonder if people even know WHY these campaigns are called “Leftist” or “Socialist” to begin with. Oftentimes it’s because people are resisting oppression in order to lobby for democratic principles, protections, and freedoms — the same freedoms we enjoy today.
Thanks PS. Don’t get me started on Pol Pot, another product of French education. I was listening to some French dude on NPR who wrote some book on Pol Pot that concluded that the Buddhist concept of “nonself” was to blame for Khmer Rouge nihilism. I was so angry I almost lost my Buddha nature and wanted to jump through the radio to smack the je ne sais quois out of him. “Professional students” are dangerous, freed of mundane concerns they are prone to solipsistic thinking. They should train rottweilers to flush out malingering grad students from the halls of the Sorbonne
Camille – this is discussion for everyone who wants to join. I always learn something from your comments, even if sometimes I don’t agree with them; I hope you’ll keep adding your knowledge in.
Wow. This is like saying that Latin American dictators are a product of liberation theology, not the School of the Americas. It’s amazing how deep self-deception can run.
Thanks, PS 🙂
if your family was tortured by shinig path or if you were a miskito indian buthered by the sandinista I dont’ think you could so easily dismiss the bloodbath.
i didn;t say they wouldn’t. it depends. if hey preah mao or lenin, embrace castro or the soviets, i’d say the probability is low.
what happenned to your nuance? i thought you thought politcs was complex, multi-faced?
PS, Lt.Col. Oliver North did circumvent (broke) US law but what was this law. The Boland Ammendment crafted by a Mass Democrat by the name of Edward Boland. This Democrat like his fellow democrat congressmen were vapid America haters and were sympathetic to all Communist regimes and this included Nicaragua’s Ortega.
For breaking this law Col. North. became a national hero, celebrity, Books were written and movies made. It really created a backlash against that tried to interrogate him. The hearings that were broadcast live showed America what a vile evil bunch these Dem. congressmen were.
No court would convict Lt.Col Oliver North not even the (Democrat area) A jury made up mostly of black Democrats asked the judge to dismiss all charges. This court was the D.C. Circut Court.
We have no obligation to consider the the interests of other countries before America as no country does this. This would be beyond naive but just increcdibly stupid. Only when interests are mutual like the US/India Nuke deal.
amneaty international, salman rushdie, the UNO don’t count?
@ 154,
Apologies to everybody for digressing a bit from the main thread –
Brij, On a lighter note the “Shut Up” reminds me of nice music of Rihanna’s song – Shut up and Drive which I am currently hearing. For a better video reception check this yahoo music link instead of the youtube one. Also the Pepsi exclusive video is much better
i didn;t say they wouldn’t. it depends. if hey preah mao or lenin, embrace castro or the soviets, i’d say the probability is low.
Really, so that means b/c you don’t know how things will pan out, its a good idea to use taxpayer money to support arms for dictators that we already know violate civil rights?
how nice of the US after butchering thousands of people to now trade with these govts. what happenned to your nuance? i thought you thought politcs was complex, multi-faced?
I’m not following you Manju – why is it that my comment makes me unnuanced? I’m glad the US has decided to let go of it dogma (in many of these countries after the needless bloodbath, compromise had to be reached between the dissenting groups) and able to now trade with these nations. If only when these grassroots movments first began, many of whom gained control through elections, weren’t shunned by the US, embargoed by the US, these grassroots movements could have thrived. Instead my tax money was going to support crazy oppressive dictators and causing death to people who were fighting for their civil rights. All b/c of neoconservative ideology that sees things as black and white – I’d rather my taxes and if I have to go to war or if I send my child to war, go toward a war that my country has gotten into not thru fear-mongering and stupid jargons. I’m not a pacifist, and if anyone is going to die, it’s best to have an intelligent leader that is aware of NUANCES and understand what exactly is a threat to our national security. Popular grassroots movements in latin American countries that were fighting for civil rights, after being oppressed for decades is/was not a threat to the US, nor is it our/US business to decide these things.
Manju, how are you defining anti-democratic? If you’re trumpeting out the human rights allegations that were popular in the 80s, then it’s important to note that the primary proponents of the Sandanistas being “anti-democratic” were the Heritage Foundation and President Reagan — hardly impartial sources.
According to Human Rights Watch (1989):
The Inter-American Commission on Human Rights states (re: mass-graves/executions):
And, in their 1991 report, while they state that there were clearly mass graves/non-combat executions, it is unclear whether these were at the hands of the current government (Sandanistas), the Contras, or both.
And according to Amnesty International:
Finally, in deference to the (very partial) Heritage Foundation:
OK guys, the SM crew has given us new posts to mess with. We started off with a proud Sikh uncle who won office in LI and we ended up with a karmic accounting of the Cold War. Bye-bye, I feel the urge to diss MIA some more
Don’t forget mommies.
Rajesh, in addition to breaking a law — passed through a DEMOCRATIC (as in system/ideology, not the party) method of governance –, Lt. Col. North also used DRUG MONEY to help fund the arms trade. It’s convenient to completely overlook the gross illegality of his actions, and the fact that he was indicted on sixteen counts and convicted on three (with the sentence later overturned on evidentiary appeal). That is way different than saying he “was not guilty.”
Additionally, Oliver North is a hero on FoxNews and among conservative zealots, alone. How else can you explain his failed Senate candidacy and the fact that fellow Republicans wouldn’t even endorse him over an independent candidate? I really don’t think you can speculate that the majority of the U.S. felt that his actions were laudable or praiseworthy, let alone heroic. I think your hatred for the Democrats and the Democratic party far outweighs any rational or objective evaluation of the Iran-Contra debacle.
Camille – all I have to say is well-said.
To mommies, I just say no 🙂
Camille, The issue of drug money later proved to be a lie and a myth planted by DNC. The people recognized he broke the ‘law’ made by a Communist America hating Democrat and recognized it for what it was and in the end gave it the same contempt as Col. North. In this case the courts recognized what this ‘law’ was and gave it notable contempt. There is ‘The Law’ and ‘Doing The Right Thing’ They are not allways the same.
Camile you and I will never agree on policy and issues ,as I am a right-wing nut for example: I love to read Ann Coulter, and you are just the opposite.
Rajesh, you’re in the military, right? What unit? (yes i would probably recognize it)
Rajesh, could you please provide documented evidence that “drug money” was a DNC lie? According to the NSA, North helped promote an environment in which the drug trade would be facilitated for the Contras so that they could fund their side of the war. How is this, then, any different from pandering to the lowest common denominator? Could you also provide cites/links to the court documents in which judges decided that they would overturn the law because said laws were passed by “Communist, America-hating Democrats”?
It’s true that we may never agree on policy issues based on our ideological viewpoints. That said, I question your reasoning because it is specious, not because we are ideologically opposed. If I came into an argument saying that Ronald Reagan was a terrible President because the Republican Party is full of xenophobic, neo-fascist, Jesus-freaks, I think it would be offensive, inaccurate, and completely irrelevant. Similarly, your comments on “America-hating Democrats” are equally irrelevant. Additionally, I think it would be irresponsible to have the thread-record stand as solely pro-Reagan and interventionist-U.S. by any means necessary instead of offering an alternative, or perhaps more balanced, assessment of both the pros and cons of U.S. foreign policy.
I’m not saying this to be rude, but Rajesh, I think the quality of conversation would be much better if it addressed the issue at hand instead of relying on attacks on the straw man. For example, I’ve disagreed with Manju and melbournedesi many times, but we try to keep the conversation fact-based and logical, and we agree to disagree when the subject comes down to an ideological difference regarding values or preferred outcomes.
Camille, When I use the term ‘America hating Democrats’ I am only referring to a faction of the part’s leadership and not all.
I dont know how to get that info about the allegation of drug money but I remember reading about it as late as 1992.
It came out around the time that Bush senior pardoned Casper Wienberger for the same thing as Col. North. In case you don’t remember Wienberger was defense secretary under Reagan. He also pardoned the Admiral that Col. North took orders from (forgot his name) as he too was being prosecuted by the congress. I hear you but it is hard for me to be di-passionate about politics but will try.
verma I am no longer active(Navy). I was given a medical retirement after being injured in the line of duty. I can’t run anymore. I was in a unit that provided direct support to Marines in forward areas as relating to communication and logistics. This meant combat training Marine style. The Unit was disbanded a few years ago and its functions given to another unit.
Thanks, I know I’ll appreciate it 🙂 You often have points that I find interesting (even if I disagree), but it’s hard to get to them because of the attacks, if that makes sense. Don’t think of it as being dispassionate, just as trying to speak to those who may not agree with you 🙂
Poindexter was the name of the Admiral