112 thoughts on “On Respect for our Elders”

1. Sons and daughters have traditionally looked after their elderly parents but sociologists say that the pressures of modern life are seeing more elderly people abandoned by their children or sent to old-age homes.

   That kind of says it all right? Can’t deny that Indian culture expected the children to look after parents in their old age .But like everything else that is also changing as the article said .Without oversimplyfing, one reason could be that in times past in India, folks tended to stay in one place due to the agrarian based economy . Add to that land ownerhip and it made sense for families to stay close together. Times have changed now.People move in search of work.Indian youth are tasting independence and freedom. Add to this the crazily rising property prices and there will be many more cases of elder abuse because of greed or plain indifference.

   None of this is meant to be a justification of elder abuse – just a comment on the changing sociological landscape.

2. Did somebody say Baghban?

3. Anna: – We can extol India’s maginificence without resorting to denial and delusion – . Right on!! Keep up the good work and I congratulate you on providig forum for discussions of your bold, open and often critical, controvercial, and yet necessary to talk about issues.

4. In general, when the depth of an analysis is “indians do this. westerners do that” its usually not worth thinking about that analysis.

5. Did somebody say Baghban?

   that movie was amazing. salman kan playing the good son after he kills a bunch of poor people.

6. “If anything, this situation reminds me of “family”; I can pick on my sister all I want, but the second someone else does, I’m zeroing in on their jugular.”

   Anna:

   It’s all very well to promise protection to a younger sister; but would you protect an aged person; a person whose beauty has gone; a person who has no property to bequeath you; a person who cannot even babysit your children; a person who needs elder care herself? Would you do it when you are frustrated in your own career? When you are frustrated with your marriage? When your husband is not supportive? When your own savings have dwindled? What if the dependent woman were, not your mother, but your mother-in-law?

   Every couple needs to face these questions and resolve them. I cannot but emphasize that this is where the spouse’s support is important. In the case of Ms Palaniappan, I blame the son-in-law more than the daughter.

7. This is a great topic of discussion. I’m not a big fan of old age homes as in none of the older folks I’m responsible for will end up in one if I can help it. But I feel that the Indian view of old age homes in the US is often distorted because of negative potrayals of old age homes in the media, movies and society in general. We can give anecdotal incidents of abuse at old age homes but the fact is most old homes do a pretty good job of letting seniors spend their last days in dignity. For people who cannot or will not look after their older folks, it is their moral responsiblity to at least find a decent old age home for them.

8. wery nyceee..

9. but sociologists say that the pressures of modern life are seeing more elderly people abandoned by their children or sent to old-age homes.

   With respect to this, I think there’s a great need for formulated models, discussions of gender roles, localized policy and plain old ingenuity, so that some semblance of traditional family structures have a chance of surviving without resorting to hyper-commodification of social roles in households. Granted some people are a pain in the ass and varying temperaments can clash with no hope of peace; but, it would be a shame if old-age homes become a first resort simply because we find each other disagreeable. And to clarify what I mean about discussing gender roles, North Indians consider it shameful if the groom takes residence in his in-laws house or it’s taboo if the brides parents live with the new couple. Certain taboo’s are hard to break in India but in America family structures are more fungible and therein lies the opportunity to craft a household that incorporates both crude economic demands as well as the benefits of extended family. Man, I hope I’m not a dreamer.

10. Yes, elderly abuse happens everywhere, but you can replace it with practically any other situation and any other place in the world, and someone can find you an example that goes against it.

    The point is, Elderly homes, or as they call it here in NY, “assisted living communities”, is a BUSINESS. It is a societal norm, it is expected. By any parameter, anyone over the age of 18 living with their parents is termed a loser and a dork. Back home, people live with their parents/children for life (other things permitting, of course).

    And for that, America can take their western liberalism and shove it.

11. Back home, people live with their parents/children for life (other things permitting, of course).

    And that too will change. And no doubt cultural nationalists will point the finger at the West when it is actually a product of a phenomenon that is hard to put a finger on.

12. Palaniappan is a male name (“Palani” – a temple town in Tamil Nadu ; “appan” – lord or master. “Palaniappan” – Lord Murugan). I wonder why the granny has that name. Either she’s identified by her husband’s name or someone got their facts mixed up.

13. I don’t know much about having to dump parents due to economic pressures and about how/whether to judge people who do that. My income is enough to be able to take care of my parents if I wanted to, or adopt kids, or donate to charity. For me, it is a matter of choice. For others, it may not be.

14. What a bad article by Reuters.

    1. Palaniappan – that just cannot be her name

    2. They don’t bother mentioning the name of the city or town. Who cares right? The “look what’s going on over in India” point has been made. Why bother further?

    3.

    state Social Welfare Minister Poongothai, who like many in Tamil Nadu goes by one name, was quoted as saying.

    Why do they have to say this ALL the time. There are lots of people in the world who go by just one name. Who decided that people should have a given name and a surname? There are also places in India (AP for example) where names have several words (including village name etc). Yet they keep sending these application forms to all corners of the world with exactly 2 word fields (no less no more) for name and exactly 5 digits for postal code.

15. “And to clarify what I mean about discussing gender roles, North Indians consider it shameful if the groom takes residence in his in-laws house or it’s taboo if the brides parents live with the new couple.”

    That’s all right if the parents are 50–60 years. Not when they touch 70. At that point, there is more class in living in close proximity.

16. I said:

    “If anything, this situation reminds me of “family”; I can pick on my sister all I want, but the second someone else does, I’m zeroing in on their jugular.”

    P.G. Wodehouse said:

    Anna:

    It’s all very well to promise protection to a younger sister; but would you protect an aged person; a person whose beauty has gone; a person who has no property to bequeath you; a person who cannot even babysit your children; a person who needs elder care herself? Would you do it when you are frustrated in your own career? When you are frustrated with your marriage? When your husband is not supportive? When your own savings have dwindled? What if the dependent woman were, not your mother, but your mother-in-law?

    I didn’t make my point very clearly, I’m afraid. 🙂 I meant that it’s fine for me to criticize my family, but the second someone outside of it does, I’m defensive. Meaning I understand what it’s like to struggle with an issue like this re: India, especially the way the conflict shifts the second someone who isn’t desi says something disparaging; I want to smack them. It’s complicated and painful.

    Beyond that, yes, I’d like to think that basic human decency would mean that I protect those whom I am related to, who are vulnerable; if I am unable to do so, I’d seek outside help. I understand this may not be an option in India, but that doesn’t justify throwing a helpless, semi-paralyzed human away as if they were garbage. Inexcusable, even if every scenario you asked me about were true.

17. What a sad story, elderly abuse happens more then it is accounted for. They work their whole life for their family only to be thrown out, knocked about, treated with no respect and more importantly no love. East or west, does not matter, it happens and needs to stop!

18. Many would see in this a problem not with Indian culture and tradition but the deviation from culture and tradition.

    The case with female infanticide is different because that is an indictment of culture and tradition.

19. There is a lot of news stories on abandoned baby girls that show up in Indian newspapers that get wide coverage in the West. Even though these grab the attention to the plight the skewed gender ratios in Punjab and other states tell a more horrific tale. They highlight the fact that female infanticide is not just a problem with poor uneducated people but also well-heeled middle class people who use modern technology to abort female fetuses.

    Elderly abuse is more a problem of the times. With so many young people living outside India many old people are left to fend for themselves and are vulnerable for abuse. Also the utopia of multi-generation families living under one roof is a thing of the past. Until we come up with better senior living the elderly are going to find themselves neither here nor there.

    I do not know about the rest of India but in South India several cities are building wonderful senior living facilities in places like Chennai, Palghat and Coimbatore. The changes are coming but slowly.

20. “What if the dependent woman were, not your mother, but your mother-in-law?”

    does she not become your mother as well, no one wants to be dependent on others, elderly people have pride too. What ever problems people have ultimately they are their problems. People forget that elderly people understand and can communicate, better then most people, sons (in law) and daughters (in laws) dismiss them as old bloody fools. Sickening.

21. “What if the dependent woman were, not your mother, but your mother-in-law?”

    Then you would throw them on a nuclear waste dump instead.

22. Many would see in this a problem not with Indian culture and tradition but the deviation from culture and tradition. The case with female infanticide is different because that is an indictment of culture and tradition.

    I was about to say the same thing. However, money is the cause in both the cases. Probably that explains both. In a nation of a billion and odd people with 30% below the poverty line (<$150 consumption per annum), well, who are we to judge?

23. And that too will change. And no doubt cultural nationalists will point the finger at the West when it is actually a product of a phenomenon that is hard to put a finger on.

    That’s precisely why I can’t bear cultural nationalists/conservatives of the type Anna quoted. Indian social conservatism seems to be driven by a deep, deep inferiority complex. Unfortunately, I only see more and more elderly parents being abandoned by their children in the future.

    As for the condoms in university bathrooms, it’s only a matter of time before we start seeing those in India too. Not such a bad thing, in my view. It would simply mean an India more like the India of the Kama Sutra and less like the current, sexually repressed one.

24. Cultures and cultural norms can be different without one saying the other is wrong or inferior. I don’t think that most people is the US want to place their parents in a nursing home, although I’m sure some regard caring for their parents or in-laws as a burden and do indeed dump their parents in a nursing home or assisted living facility etc.

    Both my Grandmothers refused to move in with their children, despite offers from multiple children in different states. One felt that she would be abandoning her husband’s memory by moving from the house and city that they lived in for the previous twenty years. The other is a bit set in her ways and likes her house “the way it is”, although I personally feel it’s that she had macular degeneration and is afraid that she would be able to get around as easily in a different home.

    Still other cultures I’ve encountered (Indian, Persian, Mexican) do seem to place more of a value on family than so called Western or American cultures. I have always been close to my family, although not as much now due to my mother and her views on mixed marriages (that’s the nice way of putting it). The byproduct is that I’ve become closer with my in-laws (dinner every Sunday, Ammamma takes care of baby Asha, etc) and I do see the value in being with family. I don’t feel one ounce of shame for staying over at the in-laws house as often as we do and we move into our eventual suburban McMansion there will be a room for them if they want it.

    I would say that in today’s society people are living longer with more chronic problems that often require more care and skill than even the most well meaning son or daughter can deliver.

25. I would say that in today’s society people are living longer with more chronic problems that often require more care and skill than even the most well meaning son or daughter can deliver.

    Excellent point.

26. Anna:

    As usual, you’ve put up an excellent topic for discussion. I really like the way you’ve taken an essay, which is so clearly nationalistic, and immediately provided an example which contradicts it’s main premise – the idea that ‘in India, these things don’t happen.’

    I often wonder why people feel a need to be culturally superior. Even if an act or belief is inherently good or based in compassion (ie, the desire to care for one’s parents and grandparents), saying that ‘we Indians are superior because we do this’ taints those compassionate feelings with a sense of egotism. There would be fewer problems in the world, I think, if we recognized that good and bad exists everywhere, and that it is up to us to choose right or wrong action in any given situation. But, I suppose latent racism is a way for some to feel secure…sad, isn’t it?…especially, when you consider all of the animosity it builds.

    There is nothing wrong with taking pride in one’s heritage…especially regarding things which make the world a more caring place. What’s problematic is when that pride turns into an arrogant (and sometimes violent) sense of superiority…not sure I really wanna be part of that:)

27. I often wonder why people feel a need to be culturally superior.

    90% of human beings think they are above the 50th percentile in looks & intelligence 😉 i think that’s the seed.

    There is nothing wrong with taking pride in one’s heritage

    though many people disagreed with me the last time i said this, i think if you take pride in your heritage, however you relate to you, you should feel proportionate shame in it as well. one can be proud of one’s particular culture without white-washing the less than flattering aspects. i take some pride in being an american, but i also do take shame in my country’s legacy of slavery and oppression. it isn’t relevant that my ancestors were in a far off land at that time. similarly, when i had a german friend (exchange student) who would never shut up about the superiority of goethe, wagner and what not, in comparison to american cultural products (i do tend to agree that in many ways american “high” culture does not favor comparably) i pointed out that to glory in germany was also to remember its rather horrible past and not neglect its memory.

28. “What’s problematic is when that pride turns into an arrogant (and sometimes violent) sense of superiority”.

    Really good point. Why is it taboo to let go? If you can not handle it then let go, do not throw away! But it has to be communicated, people need to flipping talk before it gets violent!

    People want to show, SHOW how caring they are caring, helping elderly in public functions, people see, look how nice these kids are, then when it really matters they are nowhere to be seen, part time grandchildren. Its hypocrisy at its best.

29. homes already exist in the us targeting south asians. there’s even many already in india. so we do do it.

    http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/business/4967760.html

    http://www.alamedacenter.com/indian_program.htm

30. 90% of human beings think they are above the 50th percentile in looks & intelligence 😉 i think that’s the seed

    Even after this? http://www.moviemistakes.com/tv3164/quotes

31. Re: # 29 ,

    I for one wish that our “culture” would stop us from turning our noses up at assisted living/senior care centers whether here or in India. I wish we would not let imagined cultural taboos get in the way of pratical solutions.My parents live in India because nothing will induce them to move here or into my sibling’s home .They value their independence and I know that when the time comes that they cannot manage living independently they would much rather prefer to live in an assisted living facility in India .I wish there were more options and that there was way to ensure that they provide good and safe care

32. i think if you take pride in your heritage, however you relate to you, you should feel proportionate shame in it as well.

    it depends on what you mean by ‘shame’, if that shame leads to a sense of responsibility to rectify wrongs, or equalize ill-gotten gains, then sure, if it means guilt then it’s morbid and useless.

33. Back home, people live with their parents/children for life (other things permitting, of course).

    I think this is already changing–I saw a documentary on young female IT workers in Bangalore and how they’re sharing apartments with other girlfriends, etc. obviously this isn’t a majority, but still.

    Also, just want to say that I think it’s unfair to say that all “Westerners” only visit their parents in nursing homes during holidays, etc. I have known a bunch of people who 1) visit their elderly parents daily & 2) for whom it is an extremely painful and practically choiceless decision to put their parents in homes. I can say this for my own family, too, because once my grandmother came here from Pakistan and got very sick, my single-parent full-time working mother couldn’t take care of her alone and had to put her in a medical home for a number of months before bringing her back home. The way we live here is very different, and if you aren’t of a certain socio-economic background, you can’t help the way certain things are; you can’t afford servants & nursemaids on a whim.

34. PS- I know that ANNA wasn’t saying that Westerners do that, but just in general as an attitude, it bothers me when people think that. So I agree with ANNA but want to make my point explicit =)

35. I agree with all the people above who have become tired of the overly nationalistic Indians pushing the oh so greatness of india on this site. This is an indian-american site it is intended to be a place where indian-americans can talk about things that bother them in America and in India. The quotes Anna used above illustrate the reason why so many people I know have begun to abandon this site. You nationalistic browbeaters have taken a safe place and made it hostile.
    If you are proud of india, fine be proud. If you dont like negative things being said about india, fine say so civilly. But if you cant find yourself doing either then next time someone says something about Obama, or Hillary or life in the US in general keep your damn mouth shut.

36. A reason so many elderly live with their children in India may be because there is a servant usually that can take care of the elderly person during the day and take care of the kids and the house the rest of the time. Give me a servant in the USA and it would make it much easier to have elderly parents live with me. Also, in the USA there is enough income/wealth to pay for assisted living facilities; in India a middle-class family likely could not afford to send an elderly parent to a nursing home, assuming one existed.

37. A bit more detail (including her full name) on the story at this link: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/6907269.stm

38. It’s very easy for armchair philosophers to extol the virtues of India and its magnificent culture without actually seeing the real India or having to experience the pains of real life. This hits home and is personal to me.

    My mother is bed ridden, in complete ill health and in need of 24 hour nurse care. She has to have a separate caretaker at night who needs to stay up the whole night with her for the most part. Daytime is kinder to her and she sleeps. She gets all this care in her home where she has a cook, a maid a driver etc. Is this something I could provide for her? Perhaps if I were to give up my job if I don’t get fired and go on welfare.

    Now my grandma lives with her who is not exactly in the best of health but is in the worst of old age when it comes to driving the women in the house, my mom, another aunt and her daughter in law who lives across the street crazy. Between my mother’s health issues and my grandmother’s demands of old age and right and a new grandchild in the house I can only imagine what this does in terms of pressure to my poor aunt who never ever complains and is always cheery and does her best to make everyone happy. If she complained I would be the first to empathize with her, not try to remind her about sacrifices made by mythological figures.

    Some things are easy to preach when you don’t have to practice them yourself. Those particular people who do so make me severely ill.

39. Back in desh, neglect of elders & children, the so-called unproductive members of society has been an economic phenonomenon both in the agrarian & industrial societies. Whereas children are still looked on as investments for the future, older persons, especially widows, usually get a raw deal. Once upon a time there was a support system of other relatives etc. which I guess in today’s fractured nuclear families has been missing. And sadly, our culture mostly ignores this loneliness & neglect. With a few exceptions like Pather Panchali or Saaransh it is always happy families doing fun things. At least in the US, there is a social services system that provides some relief, however bureaucratic it can be. In India, we are dependant on the kindness of relatives, or even strangers (or not, as in the HT story).

40. Asha’s Dad and sa, dead on!

    It’s very easy to stand in a position of moral superiority when you’ve got the $$$ to afford servants in the home, or you’ve got the physical brawn, $$$ and time to be able to care for, say, a six-foot, 175-pound father with Alzheimers who requires round-the-clock supervision and care, but what about those who don’t and/or physically can’t?

    As family size shrinks, and families no longer reside in the same cities or countries, those are choices that people with aging parents will have to face.

    And what of the people who may not marry and have the additional support of a spouse?

41. re: brownland vs. whiteland. my mom always talked about “in bangladesh we don’t do this” blah, blah, blah when i was a kid. when i visited bangladesh last time and talked to some of my cousins it was pretty obvious that my mom was sheltered and privileged in so many ways that she was not conscious or aware of. i wonder how many of our parents were the same.

42. “Some things are easy to preach when you don’t have to practice them yourself. Those particular people who do so make me severely ill”.

    Exactly, but I have seen it from the other side, people going around preaching and bragging how they take care of their in laws, when in reality they leave them starving while they sit and eat like a newly wed couple. The show of how they remain part of the Indian culture, “pranam” as they kick the old when they are down.

    It’s the hypocrisy that makes me severely ill.

43. I agree with the fact that no one is perfect.

    Back home, people live with their parents/children for life (other things permitting, of course).

    The “other things” is the main issue with India and “Peer pressure” if you will, is also a contributer (although minor) that we often tend to overlook.

    Also, in the USA there is enough income/wealth to pay for assisted living facilities; in India a middle-class family likely could not afford to send an elderly parent to a nursing home, assuming one existed.

    Well besides wealth, there is the question of independence. My 75 year old grandmother, prefers to live alone in her house and no amount of cajoling or convincing can get her to change her mind to come over to my parents house.

    When you do not have places to go and things to do, your life comes to a stand still. Just like you and I, elders want to have a life. Assisted living gives them that. But in India, you do not need a special place for that, which makes this story even more heart breaking.

    I think in the end it is all about giving them respect and doing what they want.

44. the overly nationalistic Indianspushing the oh so greatness of india on this site. This is an indian-american site it is intended to be a place where indian-americans can talk about things that bother them in America and in India.

    Ty, Agree that the commenter who Anna quoted is obviously over the top and wrong, wrong, wrong on everything.

    If your intention was to scare off Indians like me -resident in the USA – who enjoy this site and try to respond to the sometimes sweeping generalizations against our kind made by some commenters here – I won’t go till the SM Intern bans me.You made me feel pretty uncomfortable though -thanks

45. “I think in the end it is all about giving them respect and doing what they want”.

    and Dignity.

46. runa, some of the most valued contributors to this website are self-identified indians (e.g., kush tandon). obviously sometimes born & raised americo-brownz need a reality check 😉 the issue is that some indians tend to make “hegemonic” claims and postures re: this site (e.g., i remember especially the comment “this site is all about india and indians”).

47. I agree with all the people above who have become tired of the overly nationalistic Indians pushing the oh so greatness of india on this site. This is an indian-american site it is intended to be a place where indian-americans can talk about things that bother them in America and in India. The quotes Anna used above illustrate the reason why so many people I know have begun to abandon this site. You nationalistic browbeaters have taken a safe place and made it hostile. If you are proud of india, fine be proud. If you dont like negative things being said about india, fine say so civilly. But if you cant find yourself doing either then next time someone says something about Obama, or Hillary or life in the US in general keep your damn mouth shut.

    Ty, what you are essentially saying is: go away you old, boring, noisy people who complicate our quick, neat, tidy and linear observations of the world.

    I find that a little ironic on a thread where we will end up discussing the relative merits and demerits of intergenerational interactions.

48. Razib, Thanks for the shout out. And I am just as disgusted as Ty and others are by the original commenter’s stance ( I tracked back to the original thread that Anna pulled the comment from).He/She has a problem with everyone ( women/gays/westerners etc) and sounds like Ashok Singhal on crack.

49. Esoteric, obscure and somewhat tangentially related. Anyone remember that old show dinosaurs, they actually had a relevant episode (episode #3):

    “Earl is excited to throw [Grandma] Ethyl into the tar pits on her 72nd birthday, an old dinosaur tradition. Ethyl mentions that the tradition was started by an old dinosaur named Bob La Brea, which is also the name of the school Robbie and Charlene attend: Bob La Brea High School. The tradition specifies that men have the honor (and pleasure) of throwing their mother-in-law off a cliff. The real La Brea Tar Pits are located in Los Angeles, California, but no dinosaurs have actually been found there. “

50. 90% of human beings think they are above the 50th percentile in looks & intelligence 😉 i think that’s the seed.

    Lake Wobegon effect.